RN carrier trainers?

[vora]

Just a question since I couldn't find anything on the net:
Did the Royal Navy have dedicated jet training aircraft for their CVs like the Ark Royal (R09)?
That carrier had the Scimitar and Sea Vixen, later the Phantom and Bucchaneer on board.
I just couldn't find any trainers like the Goshawk or the Zephyr. So how did the FAA jet jockeys learn to land on the carriers?

Thx,
Volker

[An-225]

I am by no means an expert on FAA equipment or history, but I was under the assumption that the Royal Navy used a Hawker Hunter T8 for training purposes?

[peter12213]

Yeah we used the 2 seater Hunter then when you were qualified and passed a lot of exams that was it, pat on the back and your on your own for your first catapult assisted takeoff and arrested landing!

[SkippyBing]

Yeah, the RN never had a jet trainer for carrier landings, I'm not sure they ever had a prop one either. Nor did they have twin stick versions of their jets so basically after a few practices ashore (possibly using the catapult at Boscombe Down until it was too weak to do the job on the later jets) and then away you go. The T.8 Harrier didn't actually get used for deck landing training either so generally pilots first Sea Harrier landing at sea was also solo.

[vora]

Thanks for the answers. That explains the lack of info...

Tough school :salute:



Thanks,
Volker
(patiently waiting for the Bucchaneer and Etendart) ;)

[spatialpro]

A mere 30 Rolls-Royce Merlin-powered Boulton-Paul Sea Balliol T21 (a terrestrial Balliol with folding wings and a tail hook added, logically enough!) were used during the 1950s for deck landing training. Come the '60s I believe the jets started getting really fast and the T21 was of less utility.

A Sea Balliol is extant at RAFM Cosford (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/collections/aircraft/boulton-paul-sea-balliol-t-21.cfm).

HTH? AQLMK

Andy

[SkippyBing]

The strange thing is I've never seen pictures of the Sea Balliol being used for deck landing training, although I do remember reading about it in an aircraft modeling magazine years ago, again they didn't provide any details of it's use for DLT. Obviously what would be useful at this stage would be finding one of my books on FAA aircraft but they're currently in a box somewhere as I haven't quite finished moving in...
Interestingly they were due to be turbo-props but as there were quite a few Merlins lying around spare it never happened, I don't think there's a Balliol left extant, hence Cosford having the Sea B.

[spatialpro]

The strange thing is I've never seen pictures of the Sea Balliol being used for deck landing training

Now you mention it, neither have I! Anyone popping into FAAM in the near future...??!

I have no idea which carrier(s) were used either, although the current USN model of which-ever-is-in-the-neighbourhood might have been in force.

IMHO the T21 would make an excellent model for FSX... ;) We're all busy though eh?!

Andy

[SkippyBing]

I know Victorious was designated a training carrier for a while before her big refit, but I don't know if that was just to indicate that she was to be used for squadron work ups etc. or a more widespread training role.

[peter12213]

A test pilot the most famous in Britain and anywhere actually developed the constant angle constant power approach which has been used ever since, one you cracked this on land you could do it anywhere so obviously practacing at various weights and in different conditions was done on land then you were on your own to do it on the ship. His name was Captain Eric Brown world record holder for carrier landings over 2500 times and also the world record holder for types flown with over 450 aircraft types flown including the german komet, arado blitz and he177 some very rare types! He also shot down quite a few during the war including 2 fw condors!

[delta_lima]

Yeah we used the 2 seater Hunter then when you were qualified and passed a lot of exams that was it, pat on the back and your on your own for your first catapult assisted takeoff and arrested landing!

I don't know if the RN FAA had FCLP at its training fields, but I'm assuming that's the extent of the "arrested" landings that pilots did in the T8 Hunter - it was never stressed for carrier landings.

dl

[peter12213]

I don't know if the RN FAA had FCLP at its training fields, but I'm assuming that's the extent of the "arrested" landings that pilots did in the T8 Hunter - it was never stressed for carrier landings.

dl

No most definately not stressed in anyway shape or form, as soon as fast jet conversion on the hunter was done it was in the aircraft you were actually to fly that you did your first arrested landings and assisted take offs, so it would be sea venoms, sea vixens, phantoms etc!

[delta_lima]

No most definately not stressed in anyway shape or form, as soon as fast jet conversion on the hunter was done it was in the aircraft you were actually to fly that you did your first arrested landings and assisted take offs, so it would be sea venoms, sea vixens, phantoms etc!

Ah - I see - you meant that all along. I didn't think Hunters landed on carriers, arrestor hooks notwithstanding.

:ernae:

dl

[spatialpro]

I don't know if the RN FAA had FCLP at its training fields

Well that is an interesting one... in the '60s-'70s era there were certainly mobile mirror and projector sights (mounted on old bomb trolleys) used at RNAS such as Lossiemouth and Yeovilton, so pilots could practice "shooting" approaches (flying the ball)... But as to whether there were associated arrestor cables also installed (as distinct from the emergency type fitted at a lot of airfields, RAF and RN) for proper FCLP I'd really like to know...!

Earlier (in the '50s) I believe full FCLP was undertaken at RNAS Henstridge, Somerset, where there was a dummy deck in use. This seems to have coincided with the Sea Balliol squadron service (although it continued with 727 NAS, various station flights and at the RN Test Sqn at Boscombe Down for much longer).

[peter12213]

Arrestor cables are used but never for practice only for emergency landings!

[delta_lima]

Won't be at the fsx pc for a couple of days - anyone know if this little gem works in FSX?

I'm curious about the prop. Otherwise, other Ito planes have worked well (FJ-1, for example).

This would be a real treat - pity there are no RN repaints for it, but stock would do if it works fine otherwise ... Anyone able to fire her up?

Thanks for checking!

dl

[bobmay]

I was not in the RN but I was in the RAF in the 50's and early 60's. When I was stationed at RAF Seletar in Singapore the carrier HMS Albion was on duty in the far east and between cruises she would return to the dockyard at Singapore for refit. Before docking she would fly off her aircraft, Seahawks, Sea Venoms and Douglas Skyraider with fat radar bellies and they would lodge with us until the Albion was ready for sea.
During this time they carried out deck landing training on our runway. There was no catapult of course so take-offs were normal but to simulate arrester landings two lengths of heavy anchor chain were laid out along each side of the approach runway connected by a raised wire at the threshold end. When the hook caught the wire (and it didn't always !) the chains would be dragged along, the weight of the chains increasing rapidly as the aircraft pulled more and more links behind it. This resulted in very short landing runs, approximately equal to the amount of deck available for landing on a carrier.

As a postscript to this: The Albion always returned from a cruise with a lot less aircraft that it sailed with. When we asked the sailors what had happened to them they just said "over the side"

[delta_lima]

Great story! Thanks Bob!

Yet another reason to see if Ito's Balliol can work in FSX. Will try on the weekend - just wondering if anyone's been down that road already ...

dl

[Rich]

Re Mr Ito's Sea Balliol unfortunately while it will work in FSX like his other prop Naval aircraft has prop problems in as much as it is not transparent against a lot of backgrounds same as the Barracuda, Roc and Gannets.

[paulb]

No one has mentioned the Sea Vampires which were used for training.

[peter12213]

They wernt used that much as far as I know, I have a book on them here and I don't think many were built 18 I think. I remember one being used on a rubber deck for trials landing without an under carriage called the F.21 if you can believe that, apart from that I think most were used as T.22 to give fast jet experience but were soon replaced as the more powerful 2 seat T.11's were being built! I know Sea Venoms were used but never as trainers as far as I can remember!

[Rich]

I believe the Sea Balliol was the last dual control carrier trainer even if not used much, the T11 Vampire was not hook equipped so no deck landings, Sea Venom was not dual control.

Peter the Vampire was tested doing gear up landings on a big airbag and was successful but not adopted, to much time taken to get it out of the way for another to land.

I saw news reels of the trials as a lad back in the 50's

The Sea Vampire would have been used for training as other single seaters were 1st deck landing and cat take of the trainee pilot was on his own.

[peter12213]

Yeah that's right thanks Rich!

[Rich]

Vampire T11 and Sea Vampire T22 are essentially the same thing, T11 being RAF and T22 Royal Navy. Neither were hook equipped

The Vampire was the worlds first jet aircraft to land on and take off a aircraft carrier, it was not suitable for Royal Navy carrier use due to lack of power and range.

[peter12213]

I read that the Navy replaced it's own T.22's which were early models with T.11's and kept the designation of T.11 not sure how accurate this is and as said there virtually indistinguisable externally apart from paint jobs! Think they varied in cockpit avionics and framed canopies?

[paulb]

They wernt used that much as far as I know, I have a book on them here and I don't think many were built 18 I think. I remember one being used on a rubber deck for trials landing without an under carriage called the F.21 if you can believe that, apart from that I think most were used as T.22 to give fast jet experience but were soon replaced as the more powerful 2 seat T.11's were being built! I know Sea Venoms were used but never as trainers as far as I can remember!

Hi Pete

Perhaps you are thinking about the Sea Vampire F.20. I believe that the Navy had 18 of those.

The Sea Vampire T Mk 22 served with the Royal Navy from 1953 until the late 1970. 73 were delivered to the FAA. They served with 718, 736, 759 and 764 training squadrons as well as various RVNR and first line squadrons. They were also used by several station flights.

Their main role was in the fifties preparing pilots for the jet powered Attackers, Sea Hawks and Sea Venoms.

Cheers

Paul

[Rich]

Paul you are correct the F20 was a single seat fighter used as a lead in to the Attacker and later jets, the T22 was a 2 seat dual control trainer with more power than the F20 and used as a lead in the same way , essentially the same as the RAF T11.

[paulb]

Paul you are correct the F20 was a single seat fighter used as a lead in to the Attacker and later jets, the T22 was a 2 seat dual control trainer, essentially the same as the RAF T11.


Thanks

For anyone who is interested a good book is -
De Havilland Twin Boom Fighters by Barry Jones (Crowood). This covers the Vampire, Venom and Sea Vixen and provides a decent coverage of FAA operations.

Cheers

Paul

[calypsos]

Up until the end of fixed wing conventional flying in the FAA, they used marked out carrier decks on existing runways, and fitted these with mirror approach equipment. Arrestor wires were not used to my knowledge as the approach is the important thing, every thing else is someone else's problem!

Not sure about Capt 'Winkle' Brown being the most famous Briton (or indeed test pilot) of all, but he is indeed a special pilot. I had a 20 minute chat with him last year, whilst he was filming at the FAST mueseum for the BBC. He certainly packed a lot into his first 40 odd years on this planet!

[peter12213]

Thanks

For anyone who is interested a good book is -
De Havilland Twin Boom Fighters by Barry Jones (Crowood). This covers the Vampire, Venom and Sea Vixen and provides a decent coverage of FAA operations.

Cheers

Paul

Yeah that's a great book, I have it here!

[peter12213]

Up until the end of fixed wing conventional flying in the FAA, they used marked out carrier decks on existing runways, and fitted these with mirror approach equipment. Arrestor wires were not used to my knowledge as the approach is the important thing, every thing else is someone else's problem!

Not sure about Capt 'Winkle' Brown being the most famous Briton (or indeed test pilot) of all, but he is indeed a special pilot. I had a 20 minute chat with him last year, whilst he was filming at the FAST mueseum for the BBC. He certainly packed a lot into his first 40 odd years on this planet!

Granted I may have been a little over enthusiastic however in my opinion he is one of the all time great pilots, and I'm jelous you have met him!

[delta_lima]

Well, while it might be hyperbole to say any one pilot was the best of all time, I believe he still holds (or at least for a while held) the record for the most number of aircraft test flown. I believe that extends to the ME-163, though I'm on a limb on that one. His book "Wings of the Navy" is superb. His prose is one of the best of the best (there's my hyperbole! :) ) but his treatment of all the allied carrier planes is very impartial and based on the wealth of his experience.

Rich, thanks for piping in on this - I was secretly hoping you would, as you're one of the guys who has understood what is/is not available for FSX FAA ops.

Pity about the Balliol, as I would bet it'll never be done in FSX - bless Ito for tackling those kinds of projects. Well, glad I asked anyway.

I find it odd that apart from the Balliol (and maybe navalized Harvards, don't know), the FAA's didn't focus on "carrier qualifications" the way the US did, with trainers like Trojans, Buckeyes, and the like, or the French with Zephyrs. I guess, like Calypsos points out, shooting approaches at the various RNAS was the option they pursued ... interesting.

dl