Ban of National Flag ?

[stuartcox]

Today was the hottest day of the year so far (in England), so I went to my local pub for a drink and a meal and sat in their lovely beer garden.

The pub is a major sports venue with big TV screens.

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After a while two uniformed police officers turned up and asked the Landlord not to display any St. George's flags during the football world cup as this could provoke problems with ...well...other national minorities.

I'm not a racist, never have been, but how far does this quest for tolerance have to go?

I'm English, I'm in England, drink in an English pub English beer, and support England!

The pub wasn't enough for the Police though, they carried on with their mission in every shop down the road.

I just ask myself "Where does this stop?"...

[Rami]

Stuartcox,

Yeah...they did that here as well with students at a California high school wearing American flag shirts on Cinqo De Mayo.

Shameful, just shameful.

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Personally Rami, I dont believe that the US flag is appropriate as a clothing item. Just one opinion, but an interpretation of the 1st ammendment says they can wear it.

As for the incident in the UK it is noted thet they asked and not ordered...

[Rami]

True enough, true enough.

[stuartcox]

Yes, you're right, they asked, didn't order!
I shall hang a German flag and see how long my windows last!:jump:

[tigisfat]

Personally Rami, I dont believe that the US flag is appropriate as a clothing item. Just one opinion, but an interpretation of the 1st ammendment says they can wear it.

As for the incident in the UK it is noted thet they asked and not ordered...

I'm cool with people wearing depictions of the US flag, but not actually wearing a flag itself.

[stiz]

my local has 2 massive ones hanging form its windows, no complaints yet .. i think it depends largly where you are as some police/councils are less strict in some areas than others.

[Bjoern]

I shall hang a German flag and see how long my windows last!:jump:

I'd stand guard. :d


England - where PC is serious business.

[tigisfat]

I'd stand guard. :d


England - where PC is serious business.


I wouldn't dream of desicrating any country's flag. If you gotta worry about having windows smashed for putting a flag in a window, that stinks. There is nothing wrong with displaying a foreign flag in a window, it could mean nothing more than pride in yuor heritage. Depending on the circumstances, it is disrespectful to run a foreign flag up a pole in a country with it's own.

[hawkeye52]

I just ask myself "Where does this stop?"...

It stops when we make it stop. We STILL have the most powerful political weapon -- our vote. If we do not use it, WE SHALL LOSE IT. Vote the whole bloody PC crowd O U T !!!

- H52

[safn1949]

It stops when we make it stop. We STILL have the most powerful political weapon -- our vote. If we do not use it, WE SHALL LOSE IT. Vote the whole bloody PC crowd O U T !!!

- H52
Here,here.:salute:

[OBIO]

I am American, I fly an American flag. I will not stop doing so to prevent offending someone from another country or culture. I have respect for other people's heritage, religion, race, creed, whatever...yet I will not stop being who I am, believing what I believe just because others don't like it...just as I would not expect them to change who they are, to stop believing what they believe because I don't like it.

If I were a sports fan and displaying the American or Ohio flag were part of my support for my favorite/national team...so be it. I would not go to Germany, Japan, Iraq, Egypt...and expect the people there who are showing their national pride to take down their flags and banners or to change their language or religion or culture to suit my tastes.

I will shut up now before I enter the murky field of politics.

OBIO

[Quixoticish]

Stewart Lee pretty much sums up my opinions on the subject of political correctness. Warning, contains some offensive terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE
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[Ken Stallings]

My philosophy when dealing with any issue regarding another democratic nation is that since I'm not a citizen and I don't vote in their elections, that it isn't my business. That is my definition of mutual respect.

The issue is for the English people to settle within their democratic process and I am confident that if they wish to seek a democratic facilitation, then they shall reach it.

Yes, I do have my personal views, and I'm confident those who have known me can likely determine where I would stand. But, more importantly, as the American saying goes, "I don't have a dog in that fight!"

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

I'm cool with people wearing depictions of the US flag, but not actually wearing a flag itself.

Generally, I agree, but I do make an exception for US Olympic athletes. They've earned that privilege in my opinion. Just like the American flag isn't normally used as a drape, it nevertheless is draped over the coffin of a soldier -- the noble exception.

Cheers,

Ken

[cheezyflier]

well, i have to say that i disagree with that man's general thoughts with all of my heart. i do not believe that "going too far"is ok just because many have benefitted. i am all for the benefits we have seen so far. i do believe that all men were created equal. i believe that all men should be treated with the respect they have earned. and that goes for nations as well. one of the things i love about toronto is, it doesn't matter what race you are here. people are accepted for who they are. it's totally normal to have mixed relationships here, and to have a group of friends get together and race not be an issue. it's not like that where i'm from. i'm glad to be free of it. but it'll be a cold day in hell before i kiss someone's butt solely because someone else thinks i should measure up to their standards of politness or manners.

[Bjoern]

I wouldn't dream of desicrating any country's flag. If you gotta worry about having windows smashed for putting a flag in a window, that stinks. There is nothing wrong with displaying a foreign flag in a window, it could mean nothing more than pride in yuor heritage. Depending on the circumstances, it is disrespectful to run a foreign flag up a pole in a country with it's own.

I would feel uncomfortable if someone put up a black, white and red flag with a cross on it in my vicinity...be it the barely legal or illegal one.

[stuartcox]

Bjoern, when I mentioned the German flag, I ment the German flag, not the old nazi crap...!
But even that wouldn't be illegal in England! It might make you a bit unpopular though...!

[Ken Stallings]

I would feel uncomfortable if someone put up a black, white and red flag with a cross on it in my vicinity...be it the barely legal or illegal one.

I think that would firmly fall under the category of a foreign flag. Worse, a flag that invaded and brutalized your nation. Under those considerations, I'd help you tear it down!

Ken

[Matt Wynn]

Yes, you're right, they asked, didn't order!
I shall hang a German flag and see how long my windows last!:jump:

I've already got the Greek flag flying Proud... how long before my place gets confused with a fish and chip shop? sorry a lot of cypriots run chip shops...:icon_lol: and how long before the local plod comes asking me to take it down, i'll be craft, they'll talk english i'll talk greek, see if they get the message "i don't understand you and therefore my flag stays" :icon_lol:

i can't see what the issue is, the flag unites people if you see a row of pubs would you really go for the one that didn't have your flag on, no matter if the beer was 10 pence cheaper, i see a Greek flag and i make a beeline towards it, it brings me closer to my nation... even the Union flag and St. Georges flag have a similar effect, be proud to be English... what's next? asking people to remove them window flags from their cars?

[Quixoticish]

i can't see what the issue is, the flag unites people if you see a row of pubs would you really go for the one that didn't have your flag on, no matter if the beer was 10 pence cheaper, i see a Greek flag and i make a beeline towards it, it brings me closer to my nation... even the Union flag and St. Georges flag have a similar effect, be proud to be English... what's next? asking people to remove them window flags from their cars?

During World Cup season especially I actively seek out pubs with no flags displayed (thank you Evil Eye Lounge (http://www.evileyelounge.com/)) because I have no interest in watching the football, and when I see pubs festooned with tacky nylon George Cross flags, bunting, inflatable George Cross chairs, nasty little paper flags and other cheap novelty items I associate this with violent individuals looking for a fight, puddles of vomit on the pavement and generally aggressive behaviour, especially should their beloved team lose.

I know it's something of a sweeping generalisation (something I'm not fond of making) but every time I frequent a typical World Cup flag festooned establishment (or get dragged in by friends) someone tries to pick a fight because I'm not wearing an England shirt, or because I'm not screaming at the game, or something similar. Of course it is a minority spoiling it for a mostly harmless majority but my own personal experience tells me to avoid these places like the plague.

To comment on another issue; I am proud to be English, and it is this pride that makes me shudder when I see the cheap tat rolled out for events like the World Cup. The sad fact is that a large number of the flag waving, England shirt wearing lager louts know very little about the nations history, the good things and bad things that the country has accomplished, the achievements that we should all celebrate and the sons and daughters of the nation who have overcome great difficulties or helped us shine on the world stage. Patriotism is hard to define but it most certainly is not George Cross inflatable chairs, bunting, red and white face paint and shouting at television screens in bars. These things cheapen the entire notion of pride in your country in my eyes.

[Matt Wynn]

Think how i feel Chris i'm a minority, i will go to a pub wearing my Greece shirt :icon_lol: talk about being a common target for those lager louts, even better for me... i don't drink alcohol either anymore so they look at me weird for that as well... common target again... i trust my training though and my sixth sense to kick in when something's about to kick off (And we're not talking the football here). i usually go to the pubs in my greece shirt with friends in their England shirts just to show a solid bond and a common passion that draws people together... Football, no matter where you go globally i bet you could get a football out and start kicking it around and you'd find people drawn to it and asking to join in... even Stateside i'm sure the same thing applies with the good ole' pig skin or baseball...

all in all it's the minority that ruins it for the Majority... as for the Germans... could England do us a favour and get to them and beat them 5-1.... Again :icon_lol:, as for me... i'm hoping for a Euro 2004 moment... back on topic, whats next will the police go pay a visit to every castle thats run in this country and ask them to stop flying flags? honestly..society gone mad! Chris on the novelty front i agree whole heartedly it makes me shudder but even if the flag is cheap, what it represents isn't... i for one would be proud to run a very cheap (drawn on paper) flag up the flagpole, i'd still salute it...

[Quixoticish]

To be honest it's such a passionate subject that it's hard to get a clear picture of what exactly happened.

Pinning my own colours to the mast (no pun intended), if the police arrive and start ordering the removal of flags then that clearly falls in the "totally wrong" category. If, however, they arrive and based on past events and their own local knowledge suggest that the flags be taken down as they could become a focal point for violence one way or another then they are correct and are doing the pub, landlord and patrons a big favour.

I think the key word here in the original post is "asked", which tends to make me lean towards the latter scenario rather than the former.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I would feel uncomfortable if someone put up a black, white and red flag with a cross on it in my vicinity...be it the barely legal or illegal one.


That would be the flag of the German Empire then . (nope no Nazis per se, as info for our American friends)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarz-Wei%C3%9F-Rot

[ndicki]

Bloody stupid attitude. If somebody has a problem with an Englishman in England flying a Cross of St George (especially during the World Cup), then I think that there might be room on the next banana boat. I wouldn't stop him, the foreigner, flying his flag and I would expect the same degree of respect from him. That is how we do things and always have.

It's a shame that that isn't how they - the intolerant who wish to change us and our ways - see things. And discussing it with them rarely makes much progress.

So it's the banana boat, I'm afraid.

[Snuffy]

I was taught by my parents at a very early age what respect was, and what/who should be given respect. One of those things was the American Flag. (Obviously an American here commenting.) That lesson, was also applied to flags representing other countries, as those emblems are representative of a people, and for the most part, people deserve respect.

Morons who desecrate a flag by forming it into a garment or a particular piece of clothing all need to be arrested. Wearing a flag as an article of clothing is not a fashion statement to or in behalf of your patriotism. In fact it is just the opposite. If you were the patriot you claimed to be, then you would know of the "Standards of Flag Etiquette".

Oddly enough, every country should have a national standard by which their country's flag should be displayed and respected.

I did a quick search and found some examples:

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm#q76
http://www.britishflag.us/united-kingdom-flag-etiquette.htm
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de1919.html

While most of these are American, there is a reason, there seemed to be more American standards published than other countries ... at least one standard required a more deeper and more thorough search to find.

Oh here's a picture of a moron ....

[Henry]

I often fly the Union Jack
with the exception of the 4th of July.
actually i believe it is correct to fly both flags at the same time
as long as the US flag is higher
i could be wrong there
but i dont believe so
H

[Toastmaker]

To be honest it's such a passionate subject that it's hard to get a clear picture of what exactly happened.

Pinning my own colours to the mast (no pun intended), if the police arrive and start ordering the removal of flags then that clearly falls in the "totally wrong" category. If, however, they arrive and based on past events and their own local knowledge suggest that the flags be taken down as they could become a focal point for violence one way or another then they are correct and are doing the pub, landlord and patrons a big favour.

I think the key word here in the original post is "asked", which tends to make me lean towards the latter scenario rather than the former.



Good intuition - I agree. It was probably even more of a suggestion than a request.

[Matt Wynn]

Flag etiquette clearly states no 2 flags of nation on the same mast/pole as the highest one shows superiority, same as etiquette states "The Greek flag should be hoisted first and lowered last"

http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/images/Greece.gif

right theres the Greek flag up, you can all continue now :icon_lol: Dimus if you're about fancy singing 'Ὕμνος εἰς τὴν Ἐλευθερίαν' ? sorry 'Hymn to Liberty' for all you others :icon_lol:

another piece of Greek trivia while i'm banging on about Greece... Did you know it is the longest anthem globally, if it was sung fully it would be 57 minutes in duration and consists of 158 stanzas...

to ask is better than to Order... i wonder what'd happen if the landlord would have said no? a fixed penalty i guess (Sorry for the unintentional pun there)

[Henry]

Flag etiquette clearly states no 2 flags of nation on the same mast/pole as the highest one shows superiority
then i was not correct:salute:
good job i only have one flag pole:wavey:
H

[Matt Wynn]

then i was not correct:salute:
good job i only have one flag pole:wavey:
H

need another pole then H if you want 2 on the go :icon_lol: another flag fact, once it's past it's best i.e. faded, torn, it should be destroyed in dignity a private burning works, i had to replace my original greek flag a few years ago so i decided to burn it and stand to attention for however long it took, only then did i unfold the new flag... theres a log of flag trivia, i just decided to go hunting for meanings behind some of the flags... kinda interesting some are...

http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/index.htm

[Quixoticish]

http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/images/Greece.gif

right theres the Greek flag up, you can all continue now :icon_lol:

http://www.agreenwayoflife.com/images/posts/earth-day-flag.jpg

[Snuffy]

Henry,

You may recall not too long ago there was an incident in Reno NV ...

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm#q76

If you flew your Union Jack on the same pole with the American Flag underneath it at the same time I would suspect you might take some crap.

[stuartcox]

Flag etiquette clearly states no 2 flags of nation on the same mast/pole as the highest one shows superiority, same as etiquette states "The Greek flag should be hoisted first and lowered last"

http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/images/Greece.gif

right theres the Greek flag up, you can all continue now :icon_lol: Dimus if you're about fancy singing 'Ὕμνος εἰς τὴν Ἐλευθερίαν' ? sorry 'Hymn to Liberty' for all you others :icon_lol:

another piece of Greek trivia while i'm banging on about Greece... Did you know it is the longest anthem globally, if it was sung fully it would be 57 minutes in duration and consists of 158 stanzas...

to ask is better than to Order... i wonder what'd happen if the landlord would have said no? a fixed penalty i guess (Sorry for the unintentional pun there)

The Greek National Anthem is 57 minutes long?
I can just imagine that before a football match!
It reminds me a great comedy sketch:[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Vs17zPJe8&feature=PlayList&p=61121EE7D52461A5&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36]

[Bjoern]

Bjoern, when I mentioned the German flag, I ment the German flag, not the old nazi crap...!

I know.

I think no well educated mind would hang the "old" one up voluntarily.




all in all it's the minority that ruins it for the Majority... as for the Germans... could England do us a favour and get to them and beat them 5-1.... Again :icon_lol:, as for me... i'm hoping for a Euro 2004 moment...

Get out. :icon_lol:




That would be the flag of the German Empire then . (nope no Nazis per se, as info for our American friends)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarz-Wei%C3%9F-Rot

Actually, I was thinking more of that one, in the non-swastika edition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge

[Lazerbeak]

This thread made me think of a phenomenon here. In Japan, there's no restriction on flying the national flag, but the very people impose it on themselves. The flag is still seen as symbolic of the militaristic ultra-nationalist WW2 past, and many people seem to get very uncomfortable with showing any sort of national pride. A few get downright angry. Some have even protested schools to never fly the flag or sing the anthem.

It's all very sad to me, even as a foreigner here, to see people unwilling or afraid to proudly fly their own flag in their own country, all because a terrible regime ruined it for them.

[Haining]

The English Plod in the OP weren't "banning" anything, they don't have the power. They were only trying to save themselves the possibility of a little bit of bother.

[Matt Wynn]

The English Plod in the OP weren't "banning" anything, they don't have the power. They were only trying to save themselves the possibility of a little bit of bother.

would that 'bother' be paperwork by any chance? :icon_lol: