Formation Flying - Some Questions Please?

[dougal]

Hi folks

For the last few weeks I've been doing quite a lot (nothing else in fact:wiggle:) of formation flying with WW2 aircraft and arriving at the conclusion that I'm actually a ****e pilot! It's much, MUCH harder than I'd realized to get right, especially when you add in some weather. If any of you guys could help me out i'd be grateful.

Questions about r/w formation flying (Mainly the B17):

1) Would they begin forming after take off, or only once at altitude?

2) Is the A/P used for formation flying, or is all done by hand?

3) When making a turn or a change of altitude, there's always a speed drop. Are the throttles all left alone, or must a constant speed be held by all?

4) In the old footage, the aircraft look EXTREMELY close. Is that an illusion, or are they actually that close?

5) How are 'formation lights' used?

Any other usful tips much apprciated.

Thanks

[peter12213]

Communication is the key the leader should always be calling out airspeed alt and headings but oviously a certain amount of skill is involved, I'm no expert and find it really hard to do also but that is what I found out is that just talking to your wingman is often the best thing!

[Matt Wynn]

if i recall 1) formations were flown after take-off, the aircraft orbiting the field, each time adding to the formation, but they also formated at altitude on calls from 'leader', 2) in the B-17 i believe the formation was all hand work but once speed and heading is dialled in the autopilot could be used 3) each aircraft in a turn must change throttles accordingly, the left side aircraft in a right turn would advance throttles to match the greater distance they have to cover, and vice versa for the right side aircraft... Formation takes time to perfect, they key is don't rush at it, take your time and advance, in modern jets you can slow down quite quickly by 'popping' the airbrakes, but in older aircraft you have to pre-empt to keep that closure rate and not run into anyone... as always, practice makes perfect :salute:

[falcon409]

You've got some good info so far from both Peter and smoothie. I think the best example of what Peter mentioned would be any of the demonstration teams currently flying. Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, etc.

The one mistake that I think a lot of people make with formation flying is that they assume it is simply a case of getting in close and staying there. That's partly true, but "communication" is the key. Whoever is the lead aircraft is the "boss". Every adjustment in altitude, airspeed, heading, etc, comes off the lead aircraft and it must be communicated and executed on a mark.

If the lead simply tells the flight, "climbing to altitude 09 thousand". . . .when? Is it now. . .in a few seconds? He has to give a cue to the flight on when to initiate any maneuver, otherwise everyone else is chasing the leader around trying to catch up. It should never be up to everyone else in the flight to figure out what the lead intends to do, and when.:salute:

[CheckSix]

The biggest thing is preflight planning; take off & climb out procedure, cruise etc... Make sure you all know what you are doing and when. The flight lead MUST keep his head and realise he has people tagging along on his wing so his flying has to be precise.

I agree with those that have already replied that in the first few flights communication is the key but after the wingmen are comfortable with formation flying then the comms should be kept to a minimum.

Relax, do not try to get too close as in airshow style, start off in a loose deuce formation then gradually work your way in. Learn the aircraft and its throttle response. Contrary to what a lot of folk believe WWII pistons are a darn sight easier to formate with than Jets, the lag in throttle to power response is phenominal so one really has to think ahead.

If anyone would like a flight buddy to practice with I can speak for myself and Riptide, we would be more than happy to fly with you and try to help. Just drop me a PM thru this forum and we can set it up.

Last words: Practice, practice, practice some more... Do not get disheartened and never give up.

[Marvin Carter]

Know a head time what altitude and heading. best to form up at altitude, know your place in pattern or box. Then one of the most importing is to know the Manifold presher and prop rpm of the lead plane. When forming up close in slow and gradually, alot of pilots will speed up to the box and then over shoot, then have to back of fast and then fall behind again. When you get in position place the plane you form up on in a spot in the window and try to keep it there, if you have the right MP and RPM you should stay close if you to fast the spot plane will get bigger, if your to slow it will get smaller. But always make slow smooth and gradual correction on the controls, not hard jerky ones. Then practice!!!
I use to be the CO for LG1 fighter squadron on WWII online we would fly formation to the target in He111, and Ju 87 to support Panzer Lear ground troops or Bomber mission to England, was a blast!!!
Post is a little long winded, Hope this helps!!!
Helps to have a good lead Pilot.

[WarBert]

One thing I try to do is hold the stick and throttle as lightly as you can, so you can make lots of very small corrections to speed and attitude.

Watching a few full size videos gives lots of clues, as you will see the aircraft either side of the leader, constantly twitching and repositioning.
Horseman on the Airshow Buzz site is a good watch!

Would also say Track IR is a must!


Albert
www.warbirdsim.com

[tigisfat]

less is more!!

If you're making a jillion corrections and the aircraft is waving around, you're doing it wrong. You should be in stabilized flight making the smallest of corrections to maintain your position. Someone once told me while I was trying to manhandle the B-1 sim that if you couldn't stay on the boom for more than a few seconds if you let go, then you're working too hard.

[ManuelL]

Interesting thread.

One thing I was thinking about is - where is the focus of you vision when you fly in close formation? Do look mainly directly at the leading aircraft or do you more or less look in the direction you are flying and have the leader in peripheral vision.

(As far as I know in helicopter hover flight you should focus on a distant object and monitor your movement with peripheral vision - one thing I still have to learn. I thought it could maybe be similar when flying close formations.)

[Bone]

less is more!!

If you're making a jillion corrections and the aircraft is waving around, you're doing it wrong. You should be in stabilized flight making the smallest of corrections to maintain your position. Someone once told me while I was trying to manhandle the B-1 sim that if you couldn't stay on the boom for more than a few seconds if you let go, then you're working too hard.

LOL. What every IP tells the student: if your knuckles are turning white, you're holding onto the stick too hard.

[falcon409]

. . . . .One thing I was thinking about is - where is the focus of you vision when you fly in close formation? Do look mainly directly at the leading aircraft or do you more or less look in the direction you are flying and have the leader in peripheral vision. . . .
Most likely, if you are flying close formation and you are the slot, you are checking left and right as well as forward. You want to maintain a good distance from the lead aircraft, but you also want to be sure your wingmen are where they should be also.

Situational awareness is important. Knowing where everyone is in the formation and where you are in relation to everyone else is important also.:salute:

[tigisfat]

LOL. What every IP tells the student: if your knuckles are turning white, you're holding onto the stick to hard.

Back when I was getting my instrument rating in a Warrior, the chief instructor (and DPE for the area) yelled at me for "flying too much". We were in actual IMC. I had been making to many corrections, but I was otherwise flying a great ILS. He told me to 'unhand' the aircraft and let if fly on it's own. The aircraft settled into a 20 degree bank to the right. When the ILS went half deflection to the left, I went for the controls. He yelled at me again and told me to let it fly itself. I folded my arms again. He wasn't even looking at the instruments and hadn't been the whole time. Now we were full deflection and below the glideslope. Approach called and told us we were 2 miles east of course and dangerously low. The tone in his voice suggested he was worried about us. Finally, the instructor grabbed the controls, yelled at me and cursed at me. We executed the worst and most off course missed approach in history and set up for the backcourse. We got crappy vectors and were way above the glideslope when released. Instead of instantly requesting a missed and vectors again, the instructor insisted that I five for the MDA a mile from the runway and several thousand feet up. Then he started his "let go of the controls" crap again. We blew through that MDA so fast it was crazy, still in actual IMC, and he wouldn't let me touch the controls. Both of our arms were folded.

That would be the fourth time an instructor almost killed me, and I about broke the chain of command in the cockpit to save my life.

Every moment I flew we were just fine. When we got back on the ground a few friends and instructors in the office asked us how things went. The instructor (again, an examiner too) yelled "HORRIBLE. HE FLEW LIKE CRAP TODAY". I wanted to punch him. :icon_lol:



The lesson for all precision flight such as formation and instrument is, don't control the aircraft any more than you need to, but no less than either.

[tigisfat]

1) Would they begin forming after take off, or only once at altitude?The documentation for the Accusim B-17 comes with actual B-17 formation instructions. Usually for smaller formations with large aircraft, the first aircraft will fly way out and make a slow arc, and the second aircraft will takeoff and turn sooner to cut in, and so on.




2) Is the A/P used for formation flying, or is all done by hand?If you're doing stuff like the Blue Angels, then it's all by hand. I'm sure letting the AP control at least altitude in a big formation like the B-17s had can be done. There's no replacement for a good trim setting though.


3) When making a turn or a change of altitude, there's always a speed drop. Are the throttles all left alone, or must a constant speed be held by all??That depends on the situation again. Different formations for different reasons require different things. The lead aircraft should fly with as little throttle changes as possible. Natural speed variances will be assumed by all then, instead of everyone heaving forward and back with the lead's constant changes to maintain a perfect airspeed. There will always be a rippling effect in formations, most noticeable of you're the fourth ship in say an echelon or stack formation.


4) In the old footage, the aircraft look EXTREMELY close. Is that an illusion, or are they actually that close?That's gonna be a matter of opinion. There is extensive documentation of the formations used in WWII, but I'm sure in practice the 'set' (distances and positioning) were subject to the aircraft closest to the led ship.


5) How are 'formation lights' used?If you're flying really tight, paint markings and such can serve as visual cues for adjusting the set. Some formation lights serve only as rejoin aids, and make it faster for combat pilots to tell exactly what the lead aircraft is doing and how they're positioned. I'm curious as to the details of how WWII aircraft used formation lights as well.

[skyblazer3]

Dougal95,

Welcome to the world of FSX formation flight. What exactly are you experiencing that makes flying on the wing challenging for you? Are you issues more with drifting towards and away from the leader latterly, or do you have problems with the throttle? Are you having problems with pitch that make you enter into a porpoise?

Everyone here is making good points and giving good advice related to formation flying, it really requires a lot of practice. I fly about 2 hours of formation a day, sometimes in the lead, sometimes on the wing. After about 5 months on the wing I finally got comfortable and confident that I could stay in with most any turn or climb/decent. Having a good lead is key -- but that doesn't just mean someone who gives you a warning about what's coming next -- it also means having someone who can look at your formation flying and diagnose what errors you are making, and help you overcome them. I was really lucky in this regard, I had some great teachers.

What frustrates me about formation flying on computers is two-fold. First, we fly on very small computer screens so as we try and maintain our field of view, the aircraft become very very small; sometimes (depending on the model they may become very blurry or disappear at a range of .02 NM. Secondly, our stick geometry is not very realistic.... in a conventional aircraft you might have 18 inches between where you hold the stick and the pivot point.... in our case we have maybe 1 inch on the joysticks we use. This means that every input we make has a much larger output than it does in a real aircraft. Real formation pilots are able to make the same small corrections we make, but the output on the control surfaces is much less, and therefore finer. One of the smoothest flights I ever had in FSX is when I taped a 3 foot stick to the side of my joystick and then set the Joystick on the floor. The fine inputs made for a great flight. The same applies for the throttle. If you are using a small throttle like is found on the Logitech 3D Pro, then you won't have the same resolution that you do on a real aircraft's throttle. That makes it very difficult to find where the leader's power is set.

HERE IS WHAT CAN BE DONE:

1. Zoom out to .30 or .40 and don't worry about looking at your gauges (I know that's hard in an accusim B-17). Just focus on lead, and forget about the rest. Perhaps your crew could manage the systems for you.

2. Decrease your stick elevator and aileron sensitivities if you are over-correcting. 40%-60% sensitivity is good for formation flying. You will settle down a lot. Null Zone is your discretion.

3. Watch this video about formation flying.... It's done by the Horsemen aerobatic team. I turn to this when I have a particularly disappointing flight.... it is a good reminder that this stuff is not easy:
http://www.asb.tv/videos/view.php?v=r878a9qq&a=feature





That's all I've got for now...... go flying, don't be late for takeoff, hit your TOT, and watch out for Flak Traps!

Chris

[Shylock]

Practice practice and practice. Make sure you get into habit of not using the auto pilot and flying it all by hand. Flying formation in the B-17's a lot of fun. Your throttle inputs are key as theres no one setting. When ever our sim does cross country flights and we have all seven jets flying in a Delta with me in the stinger, my throttle is always moving and I'm flying whats called "Flying paint" off of the plane above me. I try to find a spot on his plane and use it as a reference.

A lot of out guys use a tight grip on the flight stick to make small corrections. They find when you hold a loose grip you have to make large corrections. The hardest thing a lot of people have when learning to fly formation in FSX is that they cant focus on instruments. Your head is always over to either the right, left or looking up. On a plane such as the B-17 trim and power is key. If your flying in weather then you really need to be one with the plane.

Last is to have fun. Practice practice and practice trust me it pays off. If you are ever in Gamespy look for "FSX Blue Angels Public" session in Free flight lobby. Send me an email (shylock@fsxblueangels.com) if you ever want to fly some formation in Multi-player and I'll make it a point to be there and we can do some flights in the B-17. I'll grab some of our members to hope in as well for some added fun.

PS- Its a huge help to have our wing clip fix that eliminates the wing vanishing when you get close under leads wing. Go here:

http://www.fsxblueangels.com/downloadswingfix.html

[CheckSix]

I would jump at Shylock's offer there!

[skyblazer3]

Good call on the Wing-clip fix Shylock. I forget that not everyone has that; it's huge!

I also know that your guys fly with sensitivities maxed out at 100% (or so I've heard), but I like to fly with them way down, it's all a matter of preference.

There really is no formula for this sort of thing, but through experimentation and practice you'll find a system that works for you.

[Bone]

Back when I was getting my instrument rating in a Warrior, the chief instructor (and DPE for the area) yelled at me for "flying too much". We were in actual IMC. I had been making to many corrections, but I was otherwise flying a great ILS. He told me to 'unhand' the aircraft and let if fly on it's own. The aircraft settled into a 20 degree bank to the right. When the ILS went half deflection to the left, I went for the controls. He yelled at me again and told me to let it fly itself. I folded my arms again. He wasn't even looking at the instruments and hadn't been the whole time. Now we were full deflection and below the glideslope. Approach called and told us we were 2 miles east of course and dangerously low. The tone in his voice suggested he was worried about us. Finally, the instructor grabbed the controls, yelled at me and cursed at me. We executed the worst and most off course missed approach in history and set up for the backcourse. We got crappy vectors and were way above the glideslope when released. Instead of instantly requesting a missed and vectors again, the instructor insisted that I five for the MDA a mile from the runway and several thousand feet up. Then he started his "let go of the controls" crap again. We blew through that MDA so fast it was crazy, still in actual IMC, and he wouldn't let me touch the controls. Both of our arms were folded.

That would be the fourth time an instructor almost killed me, and I about broke the chain of command in the cockpit to save my life.

Every moment I flew we were just fine. When we got back on the ground a few friends and instructors in the office asked us how things went. The instructor (again, an examiner too) yelled "HORRIBLE. HE FLEW LIKE CRAP TODAY". I wanted to punch him. :icon_lol:



The lesson for all precision flight such as formation and instrument is, don't control the aircraft any more than you have to. The old lesson about letting the plane fly itself has it's place.

Hmm. Never heard the old "let the plane fly itself" technique. Maybe he got the "trim" technique all discombobulated... you know, the plane is in trim if you CAN take your hands off of the controls for A FEW SECONDS ONLY and it remains in stable flight.

[dougal]

A huuuuuuuge thanks to all responders. You've been a tremendous help so far. Alas, at the moment I'm laid-up ill in my pit, so can't jump in the cockpit to try some of it.

I've copied & paste this thread and links to keep the info.

Thank you so much. I'm sure you'll hear more from me.

As I fly mostly heavies of one sort or another, I use CH yoke & pedals. Fits the B17 but not my VRS F/A18:jump:

Is anyone else with the Accu B17 having issues with callibration on the pedals? They're fine with all my other A/C, but not the B17.

[Snuffy]

And I'm still looking for screenies of this formation flying! :mixedsmi:

[dougal]

Ha ha! You know what it is... Every time I do a new flight, i'm then unhappy with the previous pics, and they get deleted.

...and so it goes on.

When i'm back on my feet...:wavey:

[Bone]

If I could do it all over again, I would pursue being a US Navy fighter pilot. But, for now, I'm just patiently waiting to trade my Cloud9 Phantom in for the A2A Phantom. Form flying is so much fun!



http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj299/theBone11/2009-8-11_19-43-38-200.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj299/theBone11/2009-8-11_19-28-18-151.jpg

[Lateral-G]

can someone post the procedure for how to do formation flying in FSX?

[dougal]

Apart from 'online' flying, which i've never done, the only way I know is with the latest release of FSRecorder. I think it's available at Avsim and Flightsim.com. It's freeware, has a great 'plain english' manual and is FREE!!!

I fly each and every flight myself, recording each one and playing them back as traffic whilst recording the next.

it's fun and very rewarding.

[jonraptor]

sorry to post off topic here, but @ Bone,

Is that FSX your flying on and if so, how is the port over for that Cloud 9 bird.

As far as the topic goes, all i can say is practice practice and practice some more. Find people to fly with that enjoy formation flying and before you know it you will get better.

[tigisfat]

can someone post the procedure for how to do formation flying in FSX?

There is no specific procedure. In the real world, procedures vary between the group flying and the reason for the formation flight. For civilians, there is a non-federal association for formation flight that is widely accepted as a great way to learn standardized procedures for airshows and demonstrations.

If you're asking how formation flight is possible in FSX, then you need to go download FSRecorder version 2 for FSX. Once you've downloaded and installed it, I'd love to help you get setup and get some single player formation flights going. It's easier than ever now, and it's truly enriched my experience.

FSRecorder is how I made these:

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/screenshots/formation%20screenshots/good10.jpg

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/screenshots/formation%20screenshots/good2.jpg

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/screenshots/Series%20shots/g2.jpg

[Shylock]

FS Recorder is fun but its still a better feeling doing it in Multi-player. Just like adult things are much better with a partner lol

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd171/scottyboy39/2010-4-22_22-21-43-343.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd171/scottyboy39/2010-4-30_0-6-26-421.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd171/scottyboy39/2010-4-28_16-49-47-781.jpg

[Whitehawk]

Nice pics Shylock!

From the formation I've done:

Closer is easier - Scarier lol but you can see the small movements earlier and make small changes rather than being further out and not see the movement until it's quite large. Our spacing was half an aircraft length back and 3m between the wingtips, that was for the two-ship, the three-ship boys used 1m (!)

Eyes on your leader - It's his job to fly, navigate and communicate for the entire formation, remembering how much more space he needs. Four little Grumman AA-1Cs feel like they take up as much space in the turns as a DC3 lol!

Reference lines - As wingman your job is to stay in position and make it look pretty (Competition formation) Pick reference lines to help you stay where you want to be. In the Grumman we placed ourselves so the main wheel covered the nosewheel and used the tailplane to judge our spacing along that line and the trim lines on the fuselage against the horizon beyond for height.

Controls - Light touch will do it as has been said before, small corrections in time to prevent the need for big ones! Throttle wise you should be working it to maintain your position just like the other controls. In turns when you're not in line astern you will need to change power setting, if you're on the inside say turning left in echelon left you are descending as your leader rolls in and then flying a shorter path so less power is required, but power will need to be applied to climb back up as your leader rolls out and vice versa when you're on the outside.

Hope this little ramble helps lol!

[CheckSix]

If you wish; skim thru these two vids and you can see some idea of FSX Multiplayer Formation flying within FS, Jet and Prop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3a8EcVF97U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ysAzJ4lKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSC0HtPw1s

P.S. The winds on the A-1 vid were pretty unforgiving that day hence the rocking wings... No honest... Wha? Wha? :)

[Bone]

sorry to post off topic here, but @ Bone,

Is that FSX your flying on and if so, how is the port over for that Cloud 9 bird.

As far as the topic goes, all i can say is practice practice and practice some more. Find people to fly with that enjoy formation flying and before you know it you will get better.

Yeah it's FSX Accelleration, and the model needed a full set of guages and a few other tweeks.