Why can't I fly the P-51?

[esandor]

Hi everyone! I hope I'm posting in the correct place. I use both Microsofts combat Flight Simulator 3, and Warbirds Dogfights as well as a few others. When I pick the P-51 in CFS-3, all it does is stall. Airspeed in the 300,s stall. Full throttle going down.....Stall. Any turn at any altitude or speed...Stall!
What am I doing wrong? The spitfire in both sims almost never stalls unless you drop airspeed way down,as it should. Was the P-51 really this tough to fly? How did anyone do well in it

[Ferry_vO]

Moved it to the CFS3 forum.

:)

[lewis11777]

This is the CFS3 forum??????

Esander you have a PM regarding your question.

[Led Zeppelin]

the stock FM is rubish.

I strongly recommend you to install ETO, MAW and PTO or, if you don't want, you'd better use the AvH.

[dancat]

reduce fuel load.
I don't dogfight with more than 30% fuel unless it's in a HO-229 ;)

[HouseHobbit]

Well Lke it or Not, it is impossible to make the aircrft in our beloved flight sims Behave as REAL warplanes do..
But the Stock MS stuff, is Trash..

And to be Honest None of the aircraft fly as reported in real life..

The game engine in the CFS3 family of sims, isn't designed to run as in real life..
In Our sims the lower you are (to a Point) the faster the aircraft..
In real life sea level in Not where aircraft flys their top speeds in WW2..
27k, 28k in Our beloved flight sims, isn't where a Bf 109 or P-51 is in top speed..


But even if they are not perfect, it still is more Fun then a Hobbit should be allowed to do..

And I admit MS did a really poor Job of setting up the flight models for the Stock aircraft.
The Add ons are more true to form then any of the Stock MS Aircraft..

And Slip Stream did built some great EVA files for stock aircraft, which greatly improved the
handling and speed problems found in the stock files..
I think he uploaded several here at SOH..

[MajorMagee]

The P-51D was known for it's extremely dangerous power-on spin characteristics. The fastest way to get yourself killed was to attempt a snap roll, which would invariably put you in a power spin that you cannot get out of with anything less that 20,000 ft. to play with.

From the pilot's manual:

The nose remains at from 10 to 20 degrees above the horizon, the spin tends to tighten, and there is a rapid loss of altitude. Recovery control will have no effect on the airplane until the throttle has been completely cut back.

NACA Spin Recovery
1. Pull the stick back and use full rudder with the spin
2. Cut the throttle
3. Apply full opposite rudder to slow and stopthe spin
4. Move the stick quickly forward to pick up flying speed.

As soon as you apply opposite rudder the nose drops and the spin speeds up rapidly for about 1 1/4 turns and then stops. The rudder force at first is light but then becomes heavy for about a second or so in the first half turn. The rudder foorce then drops to zero as the spin stops.

During the spin you feel a slight buffeting. If you attempt to recover from the dive too soon after the spin stops, you also feel rather heavy buffeting in both the elevator and the rudder.

Be sure to hold the controls in recovery position until you have recovered completely. It may take up to six turns to recover from a two to five turn power spin. In this situation you may lose as much as 9000 feet of altitude.

[greycap.raf]

The game engine in the CFS3 family of sims, isn't designed to run as in real life..
In Our sims the lower you are (to a Point) the faster the aircraft..
In real life sea level in Not where aircraft flys their top speeds in WW2..
27k, 28k in Our beloved flight sims, isn't where a Bf 109 or P-51 is in top speed..

Because you're looking at airspeed indicated (A.S.I.) instead of true airspeed (T.A.S.). A.S.I. decreases as the altitude increases because it works by air pressure, which also decreases as the altitude increases. The following table is from real life testing of a Spitfire HF IX, note how A.S.I keeps going down although T.A.S. increases noticably at higher altitudes. The full throttle height of the engine was 26.600 feet and it attained its top speed right there.


Height T.A.S. A.S.I.
0 328 334
3000 341 334
6000 354 332
9000 367 330
12000 381 327
15100 394 323
18000 394 309
21000 391 291
23000 387 278
19000 381 294
21000 390 290
24000 402 285
26600 413 280
30000 408 261
33000 399 241
36000 386 220
39000 369 194

[lewis11777]

Actually Esander if you take a look at true airspeed in these screenshots here is the P-51D at about 700ft and 9500ft, its making about 50mph faster at altitude. I understand however what you are saying about the exaggerated tendancy to spin or stall. Although the P-51D had a tendancy to spin under certain circumstance if it performed like it does in CFS3 it would never have been used as a dog fighter. Reading the testimony of many P-51 fighters they spoke of how it flew like a dream and executed very aggressive turns and rolls. Judging from the FM in CFS3 everyone wonders how the damn thing ever managed manuevers without killing all the pilots. Here are some comments from articles on the internet and the accounts do not match the way the P-51 performs in CFS3:

It was among the fastest piston engine planes of the war; it had an outstandingly high Mach number and strong construction so it could out dive opponents (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-514GDIVE.gif); it had a very good roll rate and could use it's "combat flaps" to turn inside many opponents;

(commentary by Bud Anderson) Take-offs and landing were a bit tricky, but in the air, the Mustang was pleasant and forgiving to fly. Best of all, it went like Hell. The Merlin had great gobs of power, and was equally at home high or low, thanks to a two-stage, two-speed supercharger. The Mustang carried fuel enough to pursue and destroy the enemy once you'd flown to the target, and it could turn on a dime. It was crucial to keep it it trim but, as we gained experience with the plane, that became automatic. We sensed it was special, even before we measured it against what the enemy pilots were flying.



7927

7926

[lewis11777]

Esander tell me what you think of my FM, it will much better fit this description than most of the P-51's flying in CFS3.

[MajorMagee]

Again from the P-51D pilot's manual:

The placard Mach Limit was 0.75. Up to 0.74 you have to apply forward pressure on the stick to maintain a dive. At 0.746 is goes to 0. by 0.775 it takes 10 lbs of pull to prevent nosing down. To get out of compressibility:

1. Cut the power immediately
2. Release the forward pressure on the stick slightly.
3. Don't allow the plane to yaw.
4. Hold the stick steady, and don't counter move in reaction to the porpoising.
5. At lower altitude the porpoising will stop, and you will regain control of the aircraft.
6. Pull out normally, but not abruptly as altitude permits.

With this technique from 21,000 ft. you'll come out of compressibility at 13,000 ft, and recover by 7,000 ft.
If you leave the power on a bit longer, or the loss of control pushes your nose down to the vertical, the compressibility effects will continue down to 8,500 ft, and recovery will not be possible before -500 ft. (Ouch!)