Why isn't there any serious business jet in the FSX add-ons catalog ?

[Cleartheprop]

I know some light jets have been released for FSX, such as the Flight1 Cessna Mustang, the EagleSoft Citation II/CJ, the Raython 400A, some heavier airplanes as the Citation X, or the Embraer Legacy/135/145 released by Wilco but I have seen no Falcon 20/50/900/2000 (Ex, Easy), no Dassault 7X, no Gulfstream, no Challengers for FSX.
What could be the reason for this lack of interest in business aviation ?

[Kiwikat]

For one they are more complex than anything else out there. The Gulfstream planeview system makes the PMDG MD-11, VRS F-18, and Flight1 Citation Mustang look like toys. The amount of money and talent it would take to pump out a system that doesn't absolutely annihilate your FPS would be off the charts, if possible at all.

Commercial jets sell more so why spend more on more complex aircraft when you can make a commercial jet and sell tens of thousands of copies?

I'd love to see more of the big name business jets but I think the smaller Eaglesoft offerings will be the only ones to hit the market. I love their Citation X 2.0, especially after the 3D VC update. :ernae:

[cheezyflier]

i was never much of a jet guy, but i really dig the epic.

[CodyValkyrie]

Of note, some of those companies are KEEPING developers from making addons.

[Cleartheprop]

Of note, some of those companies are KEEPING developers from making addons.

I didnt know that such manufacturers could keep developpers from making add-ons based on their aircrafts.

A freeware Falcon 50 has been developped for FS2002 (I think) then upgraded for FS9 and X but although the exterior shape was nice, the VC and airplane systems were far away from the real thing. (and the flight model was quite unrealistic).

The systems complexity of these jets is similar to any airliner sytems which are successfully developped by PMDG, and so on.

[Prowler1111]

..give us some time..:jump:..got a new coder in the ranks, studying the possibilities, we´ll have a whole new web site and some new interesting news, while we are still 100% military and most specific naval aircraft intended, i see some tubes and biz jets in RAZBAM future..

Best regards

Prowler

[icarus]

perhaps because i prefer golden age era and wwII?

[warchild]

There USED to be a serious business jet, but it was for FS9 and made by Ariane. Even though the plane itself was a class act, there was so much irrelevant mud being slung at them at the time it wasnt funny, so hardly anyone bought it.. Ariane has since not updated their BBJ for FSX, and has stuck to just tubes.. Extremely NICE tubes, but tubes, like everyone else... Personally, i miss being able to head back to the cabin and relax on those long flights as i watch the clouds roll by..

[warchild]

I didnt know that such manufacturers could keep developpers from making add-ons based on their aircrafts.

A freeware Falcon 50 has been developped for FS2002 (I think) then upgraded for FS9 and X but although the exterior shape was nice, the VC and airplane systems were far away from the real thing. (and the flight model was quite unrealistic).

The systems complexity of these jets is similar to any airliner sytems which are successfully developped by PMDG, and so on.

I believe your talking about the Falcon 50 that was available.. I cant speak for any part of its reality, but i gotta admit, it was one very fun airplane to fly :) ...

[deathfromafar]

We are lacking a good Gulfstream and Falcon series(Falcon 50/900/2000). It does seem unlikely that we will ever see these modeled because of CodyValkyrie mentioned above. For whatever reasons, being that obtaining a license from these companies is a bit steep cost wise or they perhaps may not want such a product made bearing their name. Who knows!

If someone does end up making one, I would be inclined to buy it.

[MCDesigns]

I'd love a good GV, always loved that design. Make it and call it a goodstream or something, I can call it what I like after it's made, LOL.

[NoNewMessages]

I'd love a good GV, always loved that design. Make it and call it a goodstream or something, I can call it what I like after it's made, LOL.

Uh no, I'm sorry to say that won't work. Try making a soft drink and naming it Coke-A-Coola or opening a hamburger chain with green arches and calling it McDanalds. Copyright protections extend far beyond the name of the product. Make a Goofstream G-V and then sit back and wait for the cease and desist order to arrive.

[srgalahad]

For whatever reasons, being that obtaining a license from these companies is a bit steep cost wise or they perhaps may not want such a product made bearing their name. Who knows!

having seen "one of those letters", I know. There are phrases like 'no replication of the logo', no 'visual modeling of the likeness', 'no representation of any mark or corporate identity', 'no identification of or with the products of...' -some then discuss licensing fees, others are flat refusals or 'cease and desist' threats. Most certainly some manufacturers are benign toward the Flight Sim world and others are even generous and helpful, but as 'small-shop' modelers, who wants/dares to test the legal departments of large corporations looking for billable hours?

BTW, the corp. world is funny/sad too... I've also seen the 'cease and desist' letters go out to guys posting photos of corp. airplanes on the web (won't hold water, although there is a legal opinion that it might if people were visible embarking/disembarking and could be identified)

As well, there's a market issue. Granted some of the tubeliner guys would buy (but some only see careers as Airline Pilots!, not corp. taxi drivers), some of the warbird and Golden Age guys might spring the buck but perhaps a smaller buck than for the latest, greatest piston-popper -or they wait for the one particular aircraft out of a hundred so which one wins?

Granted, those of us who love anything with wings are more amenable, but remember that the FS community can be pretty fractured so the market for a "less-exciting" (not as big as an Airbus, to clean for a Wasp lover, too genteel for the warbird guys) is likely going to be smaller relative to the development time for a high-quality model (and we keep hearing that all models must be near perfect :isadizzy:).

We'll see some of them as time goes on, but look at FS9.. there are still huge gaps in the catalog after 7 years. Today, the factories are often still grinding out the 5th Mustang, third Corsair, 20th tube to get a share of the bigger markets that are well-known. You know what happens if a shop builds something a bit 'different'.. there are immediately hundreds of post saying "nice, but I wanted a.... and I have a budget"

BTW, I'm holding out for an early Sabreliner and/or an AeroCommander/Rockwell 1123) :jump: AND I'm on a budget...

Rob

[srgalahad]

Uh no, I'm sorry to say that won't work. Try making a soft drink and naming it Coke-A-Coola or opening a hamburger chain with green arches and calling it McDanalds. Copyright protections extend far beyond the name of the product. Make a Goofstream G-V and then sit back and wait for the cease and desist order to arrive.

LOL We had a franchise submarine sandwich shop around here called MR SUB. One of the owners decided to go independent (legally) but to save a big of $$ on his costly illuminated sign he did a bit of scraping and a bit of tape work and became MP. SUBS --- they got him :gameoff:

[MCDesigns]

Uh no, I'm sorry to say that won't work. Try making a soft drink and naming it Coke-A-Coola or opening a hamburger chain with green arches and calling it McDanalds. Copyright protections extend far beyond the name of the product. Make a Goofstream G-V and then sit back and wait for the cease and desist order to arrive.

I understand your point LC, but your analogy is skewed since what you mention is competing products for the same customer group, unlike making a 3d model for use in a game which in no way affects the real product. Copyrights are one thing, but this is just plain assinine.

At $129, I highly doubt any licensing went on here for this model
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3ds-max-gulfstream-aircraft-g650/488152

[warchild]

BTW, I'm holding out for an early Sabreliner and/or an AeroCommander/Rockwell 1123) :jump: AND I'm on a budget...

Rob

I'll be honest.. I really wouldnt mind seeing an AC-690-10 done to Miltons standards or beyond ( i dont think you can get better than his work ).. its a great plane, even if a bit complex to fly..

[pilottj]

I would love to see a Falcon 7, GV or a Global Express as well. I wonder if PMDG could include a BBJ in their 737NG series. Tho I am sure they would feel they would have to make a whole new interior for it...ie gold plated toilets or somthing of that nature which would be a lot more work.

Maybe Bill could come of with one of his beautiful conceptual designs of a large long range business jet. I know its a bit of a long shot but if someone is looking for a really neat 'concept' to try, the Carreidas 160 from the TinTin comic Flight 714. It was a fictional supersonic swingwing trijet that looked like a souped up Falcon.

Cheers
TJ

6379

[bazzar]

There are plenty of devs, commercial and free, producing modern jet stuff for FSX. You don't hear about much here because really this is a combat forum. It's in the name if you think about it. "Combat Flight Center"

If you're going to go fishing for commercial jets, whatever the size, I would suggest you're at the wrong pond.:wiggle:

[Cleartheprop]

There are plenty of devs, commercial and free, producing modern jet stuff for FSX. You don't hear about much here because really this is a combat forum. It's in the name if you think about it. "Combat Flight Center"

If you're going to go fishing for commercial jets, whatever the size, I would suggest you're at the wrong pond.:wiggle:

Thanks for your input Bazzar, just let you know that this forum is not my only source of information; and there is definitely no Falcon 50/900/2000 for FSX. (I mean accurate/realistic/systems oriented add-ons).
Regarding Dassault copyright (to pinpoint this manufacturer), there are many Dassault fighters in FSX (Freewares and Paywares). the systems are not simulated but the image of the manufacturer is used and displayed. I dont see why civilian airplanes would be more restricted.

[cheezyflier]

sir galahad, i think you make some good points in post # 13. it makes me wonder if all of those things are legal/enforceable. i know that often corporate lawyers will try to bluff and bully their will onto people they percieve to be without the funds or general will to fight back, because most little guys will roll over rather than risk.

however, if some freeware guy did make a plane that looked like a gulfstream but was not labeled as one,
i wonder if gulfstream would bother going after them, if they even found out about it. after all, proof of intent is on them. if no $$ is being made, and their logo/image isn't being used, i suspect it would be hard to argue that their rights had been infringed, and one would have to also wonder if it was worth pursuing. just because some lawyer does a little saber-rattling with a cease and desist order doesn't neccessarily mean it's legal. it wasn't issued by a court or a judge, but by a lawyer with corporate interests in mind

[empeck]

You know what happens if a shop builds something a bit 'different'.. there are immediately hundreds of post saying "nice, but I wanted a.... and I have a budget"

OR it is praised like Lotussim's Albatros :)

[Hurricane91]

...no Dassault 7X,...

The Dassault Falcon 7X by Premier Aircraft Design is nice freeware. Is that not what you are looking for?

[krazycolin]

By US law, American fighter/bombers are considered to be the property of the US govt. and therefore, not the property of the company that made it/them. Hence the reason that, though they have tried, the companies that make these planes have no rights to remove or control them. Turbosquid is a good example of this. I've had a ton of planes on there at one time or another and never had an issue.

It does need to be stated that the US copyright laws are much more stringent and the companies far more litiginous than "outsiders". I seriously wonder if we (a Canadian based company) were to make a Gulfstream and sold it only in Europe via Simmarket, would they even bother? Would they be able to stop it? It's not the same laws at all...

[Cleartheprop]

The Dassault Falcon 7X by Premier Aircraft Design is nice freeware. Is that not what you are looking for?
This freeware 7X is light years away from reality. It does not reproduce the actual airplane systems, nor the Honeywell Primus EPIC system. I understand it might be a nice addition to any FSX but does not fit into my field of investigation (Accurate systems and avionics, such as PMDG and more. An aircraft than can be flown by the books (the actual ones).

[ryanbatc]

The Dassault Falcon 7X by Premier Aircraft Design is nice freeware. Is that not what you are looking for?


Ok, I'm going to be the one to say it - PAD aircraft are really dated now... most look like FS98 era... It's not suitable freeware for FSX imho.

[MCDesigns]

I seriously wonder if we (a Canadian based company) were to make a Gulfstream and sold it only in Europe via Simmarket, would they even bother? Would they be able to stop it? It's not the same laws at all...

Now there's a great idea!!!!!:jump:

[Kiwikat]

Ok, I'm going to be the one to say it - PAD aircraft are really dated now... It's not suitable freeware for FSX imho.

Not to mention they aren't actually made for FSX...

I loved their turbo beaver in FS9. It would be cool if somehow they started making native FSX planes... :wiggle:

[Wombat_VC]

This freeware 7X is light years away from reality. It does not reproduce the actual airplane systems, nor the Honeywell Primus EPIC system. I understand it might be a nice addition to any FSX but does not fit into my field of investigation (Accurate systems and avionics, such as PMDG and more. An aircraft than can be flown by the books (the actual ones).

I have been reading that a certain very established Pilatus PC-12 maker had flatly refused to do the NG version because of the Primus. Reason given - it will not make them money. Following the same line of reasoning, we can rule out all advanced biz jets.

Side note: please do not misunderstand, I am not questioning that decision. At the end of the day, we all must put food on our tables.

[warchild]

Side note: please do not misunderstand, I am not questioning that decision. At the end of the day, we all must put food on our tables.

yeahhh, true enough, but sometimes i wonder if we dont sometimes lose site of whats really important: The community. Just a curious passing thought.. if people are in it only for the money, maybe they should go away.. :(

[MCDesigns]

yeahhh, true enough, but sometimes i wonder if we dont sometimes lose site of whats really important: The community. Just a curious passing thought.. if people are in it only for the money, maybe they should go away.. :(

In all fairness, I have seen many in the "community" being very demanding and at times just plain unreasonable, especially with payware developers, so where do we draw the line? If you are a commercial vendor, your number one priority should be the bottom line, it's up to us to have the principles to not buy from a certain vendor if we don't like their attitude, it's what I do and have a couple I will never support.

[warchild]

You have a point Michael. but I'm just an old idealist who should have been a hippy, and somehow ended up fighting a war instead.. meh.. things are never as simple as i wish they could be.. :;sigh:; yup, i'm a hopless idealist and romantic, and probably will be till my dieing day.. :;chuckles:; i agree that income is important. its not my bottom line but, i know i'm kinda weird with different values than most. still Bills have to be paid and kids need to be fed if you have any, and thats always got to be taken into consideration when planning a new project. But i can dream, at least a little.. :)..

[pilottj]

Aerosoft is working on a CRJ, perhaps they could find time down the road to morph it into it's cousin the Global Express. I read on the Eaglesoft forum too that they like the idea of a Falcon 7X but just have too much on their plates at the moment, perhaps later. I thought they had a CL-604 at one point in the works which too is related to the Global Express. Maybe after they finish the Twinstar they will have room to look into the long range bizjet field.

CHeers
TJ

[Bjoern]

It's not suitable freeware for FSX imho.

Then go and make suitable versions.



Modeling for FSX isn't hard at all. Just time-intensive.

[MCDesigns]

Then go and make suitable versions.



Modeling for FSX isn't hard at all. Just time-intensive.

the comes the texturing/UV mapping which is even more time intensive, LOL

[N400QW]

yeahhh, true enough, but sometimes i wonder if we dont sometimes lose site of whats really important: The community. Just a curious passing thought.. if people are in it only for the money, maybe they should go away.. :(
Don't worry, if they don't make money they will go away...:mixedsmi:

[N400QW]

Aerosoft is working on a CRJ, perhaps they could find time down the road to morph it into it's cousin the Global Express. I read on the Eaglesoft forum too that they like the idea of a Falcon 7X but just have too much on their plates at the moment, perhaps later. I thought they had a CL-604 at one point in the works which too is related to the Global Express. Maybe after they finish the Twinstar they will have room to look into the long range bizjet field.

CHeers
TJ
Following the Twin Star we have a Cessna CJ1+ w/ Full FMC along the lines of CX Extreme 2.0 in depth of simulation. In fact it is called Citation CJ1+ Extreme 2.0.
We have toyed with the idea of an in depth Falcon 50 but have a "secret project" that will precede any other new products.:mixedsmi:

[Bjoern]

the comes the texturing/UV mapping which is even more time intensive, LOL

But doable.




yeahhh, true enough, but sometimes i wonder if we dont sometimes lose site of whats really important: The community. Just a curious passing thought.. if people are in it only for the money, maybe they should go away.. :(

Don't make me dream, Pam...oops, too late. :(

*Dreams away*

[pilottj]

Sounds good Ron, really looking foward to the TwinStar. Whatever you guys make will be excellent, can't wait to find out what your secret project is :jump: You guys are the bizjet experts so if anyone takes on the long range bizjet field, I am sure it will be Eaglesoft. In the meantime just call the Citation X your 'long range' jet. With one fuel stop it can go as far as the GV. Or you could make your PMDG 747 a corperate aircraft. :D

Cheers
TJ

[srgalahad]

This freeware 7X is light years away from reality. It does not reproduce the actual airplane systems, nor the Honeywell Primus EPIC system. I understand it might be a nice addition to any FSX but does not fit into my field of investigation (Accurate systems and avionics, such as PMDG and more. An aircraft than can be flown by the books (the actual ones).



2200hrs - off to bed with everything tucked safely in the EFB for the 0700 departure - 3.5 hrs should be a nice flight - home before kid's bedtime..
0420hrs - wake up to see flashing light on the alarm clock indicating overnight power failure - mad dash to shower and get dressed.
0440hrs - fire up laptop to find ISP is down for mtce. - off to the hangar without breakfast to recheck wx.
0515hrs - dash through Ops to find FO has got the flight plan up on the dispatch system and has wx updated - hmmm. the low has stalled and we now have barely IFR minimums at destination.. oh, and BTW skipper, catering lost the food order..
0520hrs - pay rampie $20 to run to Denny's for 7 -Breakfasts To Go and get them stashed in the galley.
0545 - start pre-flight inspection - hopefully it'll still be dark so pax don't see dirt streaks the attendant missed in wash last night...
0645hrs - customer's secretary calls to advise pax are delayed an hour... followed by FO reporting destination has now gone to 100 & 1/4 with freezing fog - thank goodness for hour delay!
0820hrs - pax arrive, load plane, complete start sequence and call for clx. ATC advises 20 min. ramp hold due debris on runway being cleaned up from broken mtce vehicle.
0900hrs - ATC gives taxi clx - #17 for departure -estimate one hour from now. recheck wx and investigate new alternate as fog still not burning off and now expanding...
0905hrs - pax call on intercom to enquire when they should reschedule meetings at destination


0915hrs - attempt to uninstall Accu-World v2.0 and system crashes at same time wife says the plumber is here:wiggle:

light years away from reality...

[N400QW]

2200hrs - off to bed with everything tucked safely in the EFB for the 0700 departure - 3.5 hrs should be a nice flight - home before kid's bedtime..
0420hrs - wake up to see flashing light on the alarm clock indicating overnight power failure - mad dash to shower and get dressed.
0440hrs - fire up laptop to find ISP is down for mtce. - off to the hangar without breakfast to recheck wx.
0515hrs - dash through Ops to find FO has got the flight plan up on the dispatch system and has wx updated - hmmm. the low has stalled and we now have barely IFR minimums at destination.. oh, and BTW skipper, catering lost the food order..
0520hrs - pay rampie $20 to run to Denny's for 7 -Breakfasts To Go and get them stashed in the galley.
0545 - start pre-flight inspection - hopefully it'll still be dark so pax don't see dirt streaks the attendant missed in wash last night...
0645hrs - customer's secretary calls to advise pax are delayed an hour... followed by FO reporting destination has now gone to 100 & 1/4 with freezing fog - thank goodness for hour delay!
0820hrs - pax arrive, load plane, complete start sequence and call for clx. ATC advises 20 min. ramp hold due debris on runway being cleaned up from broken mtce vehicle.
0900hrs - ATC gives taxi clx - #17 for departure -estimate one hour from now. recheck wx and investigate new alternate as fog still not burning off and now expanding...
0905hrs - pax call on intercom to enquire when they should reschedule meetings at destination

0915hrs - attempt to uninstall Accu-World v2.0 and system crashes at same time wife says the plumber is here:wiggle:

light years away from reality...

Ha Ha, Hilarious but so close to true..:isadizzy::banghead:

[N400QW]

Sounds good Ron, really looking foward to the TwinStar. Whatever you guys make will be excellent, can't wait to find out what your secret project is :jump: You guys are the bizjet experts so if anyone takes on the long range bizjet field, I am sure it will be Eaglesoft. In the meantime just call the Citation X your 'long range' jet. With one fuel stop it can go as far as the GV. Or you could make your PMDG 747 a corperate aircraft. :D

Cheers
TJ
Can't call the CX a long Range bird when she's realy Medium Range and of course PMDG can do whatever they wish.
All we can say about the secret project is that it is secret and has longer legs than the CX 2.0 but with the same depth of features set.:mixedsmi:

[pilottj]

other 'long range' craft, the PBY and Bills Epic LT, anything with 2200nm range or so will get you just about everywhere in FSX. I think the longest distance between any two airports would be trans pacific...ie west coast to hawaii or somthing and that can be covered with a 2000+ mile range aircraft.