It shines like a new car

[Dangerousdave26]

I been around a lot of F7-Fs. They had a shine like a new car. A lot brighter than you show.
My Uncle Sam, a Major on the Marine Corps, was the first commander of the Tigercats squadron.

That is a statement made by Helldiver in the FS2004 forum.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=35425

I am curious why they would be shiny. Last year around this time I had just completed a trip with my brother on CVN-71. When I got on the carrier one of the first things I notice (other than its huge size) was that the F-18 Hornets were dull. Not a lick of shine on them.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63/Dangerousdave26/TGCruise_2009151.jpg

I was expecting to see a glossy airplane with a nice smooth surface but that was not the case.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63/Dangerousdave26/TGCruise_2009167.jpg

I asked my brother why they were so dull and he told me they are not painted to keep the weight down which makes sense.

So is there more to the story here. Why are the older aircraft shiny and the newer ones dull?

This one is likely repainted but she's got a shine on her and she is somewhat older.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63/Dangerousdave26/2009_VNA_161.jpg

[jmig]

My dad told me they waxed airplanes in WWII so they would go faster. Today that isn't a concern.

[BurningBeard]

Funny,..... My father was a bomber pilot in WWII and he said that they painted everything flat so it would not reflect light, which would make it more visible. This is what you normally see on military vehicles. The only time I saw shiny military vehicles was is Korea in 1976. The Seventh Cav had some beautiful high gloss camo jeeps, but then again the officers riding around in them were wearing cowboy hats and silver riding studs (spurs without rowels) on their spit-shined jump boots.

Beard

[Odie]

The current paint scheme on US Navy aircraft is often referred to as "yuck and double-yuck", especially when compared to the colorful schemes of the 1970's that adorned many fleet a/c.

Part of the switch to the dull scheme was the weight benefit between the gloss and dull paints. Another aspect was the maintenance required to keep the colorful paint schemes looking good.

I believe that each squadron is allowed to have two aircraft that can sport the squadron colors, normally the C.O.'s and the X.O.'s ride are colorful (correct me if I'm wrong!).

So, it's a combo of things:
Weight savings
Time savings
And obviously the camo aspect of the duller colors made it hard to spot.

[tigisfat]

There are many different reasons, as there was no governing authority over all military aircraft at one time. Some people wanted aircraft painted certain colors because it was cool, such as the F-117, and some were painted black because they could only be black, such as they SR-71. There is truth to the old story about buying too much gunship gray paint. In the late 90's many aircraft started to be painted gunship gray.

Modern aircraft paints are engineered for durability, resistance to radar and other performance factors, not only looks. I'm sure in WWII and Korea the flag officers wanted shiny aircraft.

[stansdds]

U.S. military paints for aircraft have undergone numerous changes. Paint has gone from matte in WW I, to glossy in the interwar years, to matte at the beginning of WW II, to glossy about mid-way through WWII, and now back to matte.

I can tell you, without a single doubt, that USN/USMC aircraft painted in the overall dark blue (glossy sea blue) were painted in high gloss paint, often with a matted section on the top of the fuselage in front of the cockpit to minimize the glare in the pilot's eyes. Modern paint is matte, designed to not reflect light and often has additives that minimize radar reflection as well.

[tigisfat]

U.S. military paints for aircraft have undergone numerous changes. Paint has gone from matte in WW I, to glossy in the interwar years, to matte at the beginning of WW II, to glossy about mid-way through WWII, and now back to matte.

I can tell you, without a single doubt, that USN/USMC aircraft painted in the overall dark blue (glossy sea blue) were painted in high gloss paint, often with a matted section on the top of the fuselage in front of the cockpit to minimize the glare in the pilot's eyes. Modern paint is matte, designed to not reflect light and often has additives that minimize radar reflection as well.

Most of the new paints shine when new, but the surface is still porous and matte.

[Ken Stallings]

The history behind the current flat light gray paint schemes came from research conducted into reducing the visual signature of military aircraft. Aviation artist Keith Ferris spent a few years trying to convince the USAF that their planned blue scheme for the F-15A was misguided.

He rightly observed that what looks intuitive for someone seeing an aircraft parked on the ground, and looking at the sky, does not translate when actually in the air looking for another aircraft.

In fact, the darker the color, the easier it is to see it. So, based upon Ferris's good inputs, a series of visual acuity tests were performed on aircraft with various paint schemes.

The "air superiority blue" of the original F-15A did not perform as well as the flat light gray, which did the best. Ferris precisely predicted the results. As an aviation artist, he spent a lifetime learning how to realistically paint aircraft in flight. So, he had a detailed insight into how colors and light works in the air.

In my own flying, the furtherest away I ever saw another aircraft while flying my own airplane was a single T-38 painted in that black sheme at UPT. I saw it ten miles away immediately. Had it been painted the glossy white, I would not have seen it that far away unless I was lucky and had a perfect background for it stand against.

The AF went a step further and experimented with shining high intensity strobe lights on the aircraft surface. By significantly reducing the natural dark shadows, the AF found that aircraft could sneak up on a ground target without being seen until extremely close, even if you had a group of people standing looking at the right location and knowing an aircraft was inbound to their location.

For years, C-130's were painted in the NATO green camo scheme. It looks like it makes sense to avoid air-to-ground observations. Under the right conditions it can. But, against a light ground scheme, it stands out. During Vietnam, the MC-130E's were painted in a flat black scheme and it worked brilliantly at night. Ground crew sometimes walked into the plane while it sat in the tarmac -- that's how well in blended in with the night sky!

But for one scheme, for all conditions day and night, flat light gray works best. You want the surface of the aircraft to blend in with a highlighted sky or a typical hazy summer groundscape. At night, it works nearly as well as the Vietnam era flat black scheme.

In World War II, keeping the aircraft polished could provide a small increase in speed. However, more the point the USN believed blue blended better with the ocean. In reality, it made our aircraft easier to see for Japanese fighters. The bare aluminum scheme adopted later by the USAAF worked better unless the sun glint off the polished surface shined toward the enemy. Then that glint could give away the location twenty or more miles away! But a dirty little secret is that the USAAF brass WANTED the Luftwaffe fighters to find the bombers. In this way, they used the bombers as bait so their own gunners and the USAAF fighter escort could butcher the Luftwaffe's fighter arm. And it worked spectacularly well!

However, most often our bombers were on German radar and they vectored the Luftwaffe to them anyway. But the flat brown made the aircraft stand out against the sky even worse than the bare aluminum skin did. Unfortunately, during that war and subsequent ones, no one realized what it took detailed flight tests to discover. And all those tests were the result of one aviation artist named Keith Ferris!

Cheers,

Ken

[Matt Wynn]

the Ferris Camouflage was designed by Keith Ferris for the reasons Ken mentions above...

http://users.skynet.be/exotic.planes/pictures/schemes/don-color/f15/f15ferris1.jpg

[TARPSBird]

The glossy sea blue on the F7F was intended to provide concealment for the aircraft over water. Chase a late-war F6F or F4U down to the deck in CFS2 (don't use the target brackets) and you'll see it works pretty good, but it's not good against a bright sky. Even a head-on silhouette would be easy for a Japanese pilot to spot. Also, the sun and salt spray will flatten that gloss paint over time so you can dial back the shine a bit and still be correct with real life. Take a look at any USN/USMC planes wearing the blue/gray/white camo schemes from 1942-43 and you'll see all kinds of paint shades and good examples of sun-faded paint.

[Ken Stallings]

the Ferris Camouflage was designed by Keith Ferris for the reasons Ken mentions above...

http://users.skynet.be/exotic.planes/pictures/schemes/don-color/f15/f15ferris1.jpg

Since due to its complexity and costs the Air Force and USN/Marines chose not to adopt it. But, one of the additional values of Ferris' concept is using the paint scheme to confuse the adversary in a visual dogfight. You noticed the cockpit outline painted on the underside. This was just one obvious aspect of that concept. The sharp angular scheme also was designed to cause confusion on the orientation of the fighter to the enemy's line of sight.

If you cannot at a glance determne if the adversary is turning toward or away from you, much less his orientation, then you have an additional set of problems in a visual dogfight.

The Navy did adopt painting the cockpit on the underside of the fuselage.

Ken

[Piglet]

Modern aircraft and vehicle paints are also chemical-resistant. And have anti-IR traits.

[TeaSea]

This is an interesting subject because it encapsulates the whole concept of airplane design....everything is a compromise.

I've several good buddies who are airplane builders and they would be quick to inform you of the inherent advantages of keeping a fiberglass or composite airplane white. On the other hand, a white airplane can't be seen readily in the air.

For GA aircraft, that's kind of an important thing.

Interestingly enough, for combat aircraft, that can be important too, but at different times for different reasons. Also, as Ken has pointed out, there's a cost factor to consider.

Everything involved in A/C, including the paint, is a series of compromises.

Piglet also makes a good point in that modern CARC (chemical anti-resistant coating) is normally applied on all modern military vehicles -- including aircraft, and it is inherently a matte finish.

[stuartcox]

After a number of tests it was established that pink was one of the best colours to paint aircraft for low-level reconnaissance missions at dawn and dusk. The greatest drawback of the pink camouflage was that this colour made the pilots feel very vulnerable.

5778

[tigisfat]

After a number of tests it was established that pink was one of the best colours to paint aircraft for low-level reconnaissance missions at dawn and dusk. The greatest drawback of the pink camouflage was that this colour made the pilots feel very vulnerable.

5778

Good Sir,

vulnerable in what way? :mixedsmi:

[stuartcox]

Good Sir,

vulnerable in what way? :mixedsmi:

Yes, exactly...open to public scrutiny!

[Bjoern]

Good Sir,

vulnerable in what way? :mixedsmi:

Attacks from their 6 o' clock?


SCNR. :d

[Terry]

Attacks from their 6 o' clock?


SCNR. :d

I wonder if that's why our sheriff, Joe Arpaio forces the inmates to wear pink underwear? :bump:

[Ken Stallings]

Good Sir,

vulnerable in what way? :mixedsmi:

If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand! :icon_lol:

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

I wonder if that's why our sheriff, Joe Arpaio forces the inmates to wear pink underwear? :bump:

From what I remember, he makes the prisoners wear pink clothing. So, I would guess he does! :icon_lol:

I like Sheriff Joe, for what it's worth!

Ken

[stansdds]

Add me to the Sheriff Joe fan list.

[Terry]

Joe is deciding on whether to run for Gov. He is getting old so it's now or never. I hope he makes it, we need him.

[b52bob]

There's the Marine camo - dirt

Most Marine aircraft I have observed don't seem to have corrosion control. I guess that's why they are called "Mud Marines"

LOL

Bob

PS - got photos from MCAS Miramar to back that up