welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll......... ....

[warchild]

Only have one for you tonight.. Was finishing up some fuel adjustments and doing a test flight from KRDM to KSFO to judge the fuel usage, and stepped out of the plane for a little walk ( stretch my eyeballs for a bit and let them relax on something besides lighted dials) when i saw this. Hope you folks like it..
Thanks to Pauls good eyesight, we have the stall/spin characteristics back, but it comes at a price. as nice and easy as we tried to make this plane, you'll need to use aileron and rudder trim. not much, but a smidgeon, and the plane will drift so make sure of where your going because there is no autopilot. Theres not even an adi.
Also, the pilot has been rescaled. he's lookin real good now.. i mean REALLY ( Thanks Dean :D :D :D )good :D.. I'll be shipping the Beta 2 version of the FDE to Paul and Dean tomorrow for shredding, but frankly, i think we got it right.. finally ::lol::..

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/urushira/2010-4-23_20-44-25-966-copy.jpg

PS.. forgot to mention, and i'll have to add it to the manual ( or dean will ). To get the range, your gonna have to fly her for real.. Use a bit of a right rudder on takeoff roll and watch out for the yaw on takeoff. it isnt bad, but it can surprise you.. One you climb to cruise altitude, adjust your propeller for 55% pitch, and your mixture to auto lean, then adjust your throttle for 250 knots and trim all three axis'
Pam

[huub vink]

Beautiful shot Pam! And what you say about the flight dynamics sounds promising!

Huub

[jankees]

wonderful shot indeed!

I'm starting to drool already...

[SpaceWeevil]

That's looking so good - this is my next purchase, no doubt at all.

[fliger747]

55% pitch? Please explain.

Cheers: T

[warchild]

Hi Fliger...
The P-36 has a very unique way of setting automatic prop pitch. you simply put the prop pitch lever for a certain pitch angle and it goes into automatic pitch. In the actual airplane its 73% ( i believe ), but for the test flight where i was able to get a full 835 miles i set it to 55%.

The tailwheel is similar in that it is steerable up to 35 degrees, but beyond 35 degrees, it disconects itself from the rudder and spins freely.

one quirk of the French version that did not get modeled ( and you'll be glad it didnt ) is that the French throttle operates in reverse of the American throttles..

Like i mentioned to another gentleman, it seems almost like the designer saw Friz Lang's Metropolis and fell in love with automation...

[Bomber_12th]

Pam, I was wondering if you had found and incorporated the power settings for the P-36, with Manifold Pressure/RPM, for take off, cruise, landing, etc.? I ask, because Manifold Pressure and RPM is what one should go by to get proper airspeeds, temps, and fuel burn, instead of approximating a throttle or prop-lever-position percentage.

[warchild]

I've got manifold pressure, but they are still working on the rpm gauge.. The setting i quoted however were taken from the French Manual as its the only frame of reference i have.. with the settings i gave above, we're running about 33 pounds of manifold pressure and at 80% throttle that "should" be about 2200 RPM ( but dnt quote me on that :) ).

[warchild]

So, I'm curious.. Does seeing inside my head and the work that i do help you guys in any way?? Knowing i'm not a god and sometimes make mistakes?? Seeing my thought processes??

[PRB]

Ok, I'll admit it, Fliger-Tom's question was also mine, but I just didn't ask. I thought most US WW-II fighters were controlled with PRM and manifold pressure, whereby you set the desired RPM with the prop lever, and the plane “knows” what pitch to set the prop to maintain that RPM. I know some planes (more modern ones..?) do have pitch controls, where you set the pitch, not the RPM, even though the goal, and end result, is the same. I would be surprised if the P-36 operated that way, but I don't know, one way or the other. It doesn't help knuckleheads like me understand any better when people refer to the prop lever as both “pitch control” and “RPM control” depending on the context of the discussion. As a result, this has always been a confusing issue to me. Either way, I have never heard the prop control settings stated in terms of percentage. But I may be a dunderhead, so nobody should go by that! :icon_lol:

Pam, I for one am not worried to see “how you think”, even if it is different from me. Heck, especially if it's different from me! Different perspectives are good, and in the end help understanding of things. And I'm not worried in the slightest about the flight model for the upcoming Curtis pursuit ship!

[warchild]

Hi paul.. Thanks for the reply.. i think part of the reason its so confusing between pitch control and rpm control is that they are seperate.. If you study a picture of the throttle body ( or wait till the plane is released ) youll see three levers. the topmost lever is the throttle (RPM ), the one next to it is the mixture control, and the one on the side is the prop pitch.. The Prop itself is a Curtiss Electric Constant speed prop. This means that irregardles of what the engine is doing, the prop is always turning at the exact same rate. Prop pitch then, is what actually determines the amount of bite the propeller has into the air, and therefore, the speed you travel.. BUT, if you dont have the torque behind the prop, it gets bogged down ( i think ) and starts to act on the engine causing you to lose speed. So the engine has to have enough torque being generated to the prop. however, raise the torque too high, and you use more fuel, which cuts down on your range, as does having the pitch of the prop too high because of the strain it puts on the engine. therefore, all three elements have to be balanced out. the torque, the mixture and the pitch of the prop..
not sure if i made any sense there, but i hope i did..
Pam

Ahh.. a last bit of curiosity here.. Th US is the only nation during world war two, which didnt fly the p-36. It was at pearl harbor, and it shot down the first two zeros of the war, but it was soon superceded by the p-40.

[huub vink]

Pam, you have a lengthy PM. I hope that makes it more clear.

In general "Contant speed" in "Constant speed propeller" means that the number of rpm is constant..... air density and manifold pressure define drag and power. The pitch is automatically reduced or increased to keep the desired rpm.

But I guess it will all become more clear when you read my PM in which I try to explain the electrical Curtiss-Wright system.

Cheers,
Huub

[stiz]

Ahh.. a last bit of curiosity here.. Th US is the only nation during world war two, which didnt fly the p-36. It was at pearl harbor, and it shot down the first two zeros of the war, but it was soon superceded by the p-40.

so the us didnt fly it in ww2 .. yet it was at pearl?? :icon_lol:

wasnt it p40b/c's at pearl??

[huub vink]

so the us didnt fly it in ww2 .. yet it was at pearl?? :icon_lol:

wasnt it p40b/c's at pearl??

There were 39 P-36s stationed at Pearl Habour, from which 5 succeeded to take off. They were credited to shoot down 2 Zero's.

Cheers,
Huub

[stiz]

There were 39 P-36 stationed at Pearl Habour, from which 5 succeeded to take off. They were credited to shoot down 2 Zero's.

Cheers,
Huub

ah never knew that, learn summing new every day :)

[huub vink]

ah never knew that, learn summing new every day :)

The first Zero was shot down by Ltn Philip Rasmussen from 15th Pursuit group. The P-36 in the National US Air Force museum is painted (well actually it is more polished aluminium) in the colours he flew with.

Don't believe movies like "Pearl Harbour", which are purely entertainment ;).

Cheers,
Huub

[Brett_Henderson]

We've got the age-old, constant speed prop confusion going on..

Engine RPM and prop RPM are mechanically linked. One cannot change without the other changing too. The difference here, is that there is gear-reduction for the R-1830 engine.. but for the sake of discussing how the prop works.. the prop is bolted straight onto the crankshaft (just always running at a 2:3 ratio).

ANYway.. the throttle controls manifold pressure, not engine RPM. The constant speed prop's job is to see to it that RPM stays constant .. no matter what you do with the throttle.

The blade pitch will continuously change to whatever it takes to maintan the selected RPM (selected by the prop control).

The pilot never selects a blade pitch. The blade pitch is always being adjusted by the constant speed prop.. trying to "bite" as needed to keep the RPMs as selected.

Example: If you're cruising along at a given manifold-pressure, and RPM... and then you advance the throttle.. engine (and prop) RPM will stay the same, because the constant speed prop increases blade-pitch in order to keep them the same.

Now.. I've never researched this aircraft's setup specifically.. but the P-36 is listed as having a constant-speed prop.. so I'm sure this applies..

Just keep in mind:

Throttle adjusts manifold pressure...
Prop-control adjust RPM ...
Blade-pitch is a function of manifold pressure and airspeed...
And mixture is self-explanatory...

[Bomber_12th]

About P-36's at Pearl Harbor, there is the great story of Phil Rasmussen, who jumped into a P-36 and got airborne, while still wearing his pajamas - something that has been replicated in a P-36 display at the Air Force Museum. One of the Zeros shot down that day, was to his credit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/afmuseum/4077483711/sizes/o/

The Curtiss-Electric props are rather interesting. In the cockpit, you have both a manual prop-lever (the knobs are always marked with a P, so that is what I refer to them as), and a four-position RPM toggle switch - auto-off-inc./dec. With the switch left in auto, the RPM will be constant, until you manually make changes via the prop lever (just like any other American warbird with a prop lever). With the prop lever left alone, you can also change the RPM through the toggle switch, with inc./dec. selections. This is the same setup used on P-40's, P-47's, P-51's, P-38's, and others fitted with Curtiss-Electic props.

The general procedure in an aircraft like this, is when decreasing power, you bring the Manifold Pressure back to where you want it, and then bring the RPM back to the equivalent setting (such as 35-in MP, and 2500 RPM in the P-40, for climb). There is always that optimum RPM number for any Manifold Pressure you set. When you increase power, you first bring the RPM up, and then Manifold Pressure to match, the opposite of decreasing power.

[huub vink]

Just keep in mind:

Throttle adjusts manifold pressure...
Prop-control adjust RPM ...
Blade-pitch is a function of manifold pressure and airspeed...
And mixture is self-explanatory...

That's exactly what I tried to say earlier...... ;)

Huub

[PRB]

There were P-36s in the Philippines and Java at the outbreak of the Pacific War as well. Not sure how much action they saw.

[huub vink]

About P-36's at Pearl Harbor, there is the great story of Phil Rasmussen, who jumped into is P-36 and got airborne, while still wearing his pajamas - something that has been replicated in a P-36 display at the Air Force Museum. One of the Zeros shot down that day, was to his credit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/afmuseum/4077483711/sizes/o/

Thanks for the picture John, when I look at it, I think the Japanese pilots were not shot, but more likely blinded by reflections on the highly polished aircraft and crashed :d

Cheers,
Huub

[Brett_Henderson]

That's exactly what I tried to say earlier...... ;)

Huub

I know.. .. I was typing as you replied.. sorry.. :jump:

[huub vink]

I know.. .. I was typing as you replied.. sorry.. :jump:

Don't worry Brett, I guess your explanation was a good addition to my one-liner ;)

John, actually the propeller control for the Curtiss-Wright S-5315-C works slightly different than on the P-40s and P47s. Control is fully electric.With the crack you can adjust the rpm setting, which you can read on the large dial. You can switch to "manual" which gives you direct control over the pitch, however you will only notice this is increase of decrease of rpm. As "increase rpm" will just decrease the pitch and visa versa

Source: The 1940 US Air Corps technical note "Propellers" as is the source of the picture below.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/Huub_Vink/C-5315-S.jpg

Cheers,
Huub

[warchild]

::ROFLMAO:: You guys are awesome, and i'm getting more senile by the moment..
yes, there IS a four position lever on the side of the throttle body, but the pilot tips on it show its movement in percentages of degrees, then theres a throttle on top next to the mixture lever.. therin lay my confusion.. if its only a four position switch, why is it incremented in degrees ( in the pilot tips) and if it isnt a throttle, why is there a mixture knob next to it?? ::lol:; i'm so confused..
either way, right now, the plane flies great. not quite what i'm happy with, but pretty good none the less..
Huub.. will take a look at that PM as soon as it comes through.. thank you :) :)
Pam

[Bomber_12th]

Thank you for the illustration, and the information Huub! I had not seen that configuration before, which is definitely an earlier setup. I see that instead of one four-position toggle switch, the functions are split between two individual switches, on the electrical panel.

Pam, this is what I was referring to - in this photo, of The Fighter Collection Hawk 75/P-36, you can see the typical engine controls, with manual prop lever, and then below it, circled, same as in Huub's illustration, there is an RPM Increase/Off/Decrease electrical switch, as well as an RPM Auto/Manual switch at the right of it. Later on, these two switches were combined into one, with four positions covering all of the functions, in later aircraft like the P-40, that I am more familiar with.

In the sim, the prop lever will read by percentage when you hover the mouse over it - that is in the code - but you will want to, within the flight dynamics, set it up so that you are getting proper RPM read-outs on the gauge, and that those will give you the proper results in the end.

I really don't think the electrical switches are used too often, at all, in regular operation. I think most pilots are used to, and simply use the prop lever to make changes in RPM. However, it would appear by this photo, that the last pilot to fly it, was using the electrical Increase/Decrease switch to control the RPM, as the switch next to it, is selected in Manual operation (down). If it were up, then it would indicate that the pilot was using the prop lever.

[warchild]

wellll, for clarification and just so everyone understands a bit of where my confusion lay, heres the translation from the French manual :d Enjoy ::LOL:::


(B) The propeller can operate:
- With no fixed whose variation is controlled directly by the driver.
- With no system now automatically variable constant. The scheme is chosen by the driver using a control crank rotating disc graduated in revolutions per minute. The order total includes:
- A switch with two positions: Automatic - manual
- A 3-position switch: not increased - not decreased - neutral
- a crank adjustment system is running at constant speed.


d. Preparation for flight

(1) Take-off
1. Blend - adjusts the rich
2. Carburetor - cold air - unless it freezes, and in this case, just to keep the heat icing. Temperature 30 ° to 35 ° C.
3. Propeller: Set at 2700 -
4. Propeller control to automatic
5. Manifold pressure 1085 mm max.
6. Cowl flaps: open
7. Cylinder head temperature 260 ° C max.

(2) Ascent and high speed
1. Propeller: Set at 2550 (automatic)
2. Maximum pressure of the tubing
Altitude in m Manifold pressure
of 0-500 m 890 mm
of 500-1500 m 860mm
from 1500 to 2500 m 850mm
Above 2500 m 840mm
3. Cowl flaps open (enough to allow the cylinder temperature to below the limit)
4. Maximum temperature 260 ° C slide
5. Mixture, adjust by turning the propeller not fixed. The best setting corresponds to a gain in rpm approximately equal to two thirds of the gain maximum.





as you can see, it isnt exactly clear... :)
Pam

[warchild]

I really don't think the electrical switches are used too often, at all, in regular operation. I think most pilots are used to, and simply use the prop lever to make changes in RPM. However, it would appear by this photo, that the last pilot to fly it, was using the electrical Increase/Decrease switch to control the RPM, as the switch next to it, is selected in Manual operation (down). If it were up, then it would indicate that the pilot was using the prop lever.

Bomber: Thats the identical throttle body we use in the model.. got a pm coming yur way..

[Bomber_12th]

I see - that poor translation even could leave some contradictory information, if you try reading it word for word. :d

The RPM settings that I can pick out, definitely seem to match that of the R-1830-type engine. This is what I've got for the R-1830, just for reference:

Max Power: 48" Manifold Pressure/2700 RPM
Take Off Power: 40-48" Manifold Pressure/2700 RPM
Normal Climb Power: 40" Manifold Pressure/2550 RPM
Normal Cruise Power: 30-34" Manifold Pressure/2000-2250 RPM
Landing:2550 RPM Set (This is an assumption, given that usually you set the prop for climb on approach, just in-case of a go-around)

[warchild]

sadly, the manual is for the model 75-A with a 900 hp motor in it. the model that we are making is the model 75-A3 with a 1250 hp motor in it, but, all the sttings remain the same ( fortunately ), as i've modeled this engine in another aircraft before ( the grumman Goose ) and will again ( cant say :) )

[Brett_Henderson]

Ahhh.. it's a type of hybrid ..

There are three types of propeller where the blade-pitch can change;

1) Adjustable pitch, where a pitch is set on the ground and remains unchanged during flight.

2) Controlable-pitch, where the pilot has firect control over the blade-pitch.

3) Constant-speed, where the pilot select an RPM, and the blade-pitch changes as needed to maintain that RPM.

Adjustable pitch props are still common, and are showing up on mant Light-Sport aircraft. They pretty much allow you to decide whether you want a climb-prop, or a cruise-prop, before taking off.

Controlable-pitch props are all but gone now. There's no point in tasking a pilot with trying to manage RPM, when a constant-speed prop does it very well.

From the looks of that description.. this prop could be either constant-speed, or controlable-pitch.

It's moot though, for MSFS, as controlable-pitch props cannot be modeled. Only fixed-pitch, or constant-speed... Although, it wouldn't surprise me if some XML guru found a way to model controlable-pitch.

For clarification.. none of these systems allow for engine RPM , and prop RPM to differ. A lot of the constant-speed prop confusion centers around the idea that a throttle controls engine RPM, and the prop-control controls prop-rpm. They're mechanically the same at all times.

[warchild]

right now, due to the rpm gauge all i have is manifold pressure, and its within those ranges you have given.. afraid i'm not qualified to work on a gauge ( its too far beyond my undersanding )but all the numbers are in place so it should be a matter of the gauge engineer setting his programming up to decipher them correctly. If the gauge engineer is reading this and needs me to do something PLEASE PM me.. I will do ANYTHING i have too to make this plane right..
love you guys..
Pam

[Lionheart]

There were 39 P-36s stationed at Pearl Habour, from which 5 succeeded to take off. They were credited to shoot down 2 Zero's.

Cheers,
Huub


I didnt know that either. Thanks for that Huub. Again, the amazing aircraft history professor...



Sounds like you have been working hard Pam. Awesome. Great screenshot as well.



Bill

[crashaz]

addressing the question of P-36s with the Far East Air Force/Philippines on Dec 7th. There were none... I too was of the assumption that they were there:

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/U.S.-Far-East-Air-Force

P-35 Seversky however were there and came about from an intercepted sale to Sweden...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East_Air_Force_(United_States)

Also here is a great account of the P-36s in action over Oahu on Dec. 7th by one of the best Pearl Harbor historians David Aiken.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200210/ai_n9121096/


Other minutae....
Frances "Gabby" Gabreski of ETO fame was @ Wheeler on Dec 7th and did get up around noon only to abort a mission after taking friendly fire while flying over Pearl Harbor/ Hickam at 5000 ft... **What were they thinking!?! **

Citing Flight Journal June 2007 p24 "Ghosts of Pearl Harbor" also by David Aiken ... I just happen to own that issue... hmm wonder why. ;^)

A P-36 piloted by John Dains was downed by friendly fire from Schofield Barracks near the end of the attack. A little known fact.... John Dains scored the first American victory in World War 2... shooting down a Val that had been strafing the cars on the way to Haleiwa and then the airfield itself.... the plane downed just east of the village of Kaaawa. Downed before Welch and Taylor had downed any aircraft.

Dains earlier had switched planes as he had flown his first 2 sorties in the Haleiwa P-40 as he was among the Welch and Taylor group to beeline to Haleiwa at the beginning of the attack. After the 2nd sortie he had switched to a P-36.

After taking the BAR and small arms fire from Schofield ... Dains crashed and burned in a pineapple field just short of Wheeler.

[huub vink]

So I have learned something new today as well ;)

Below a link to an overview of all US aircrafts at Pearl Habour in December 1941:

http://www.ww2pacific.com/aaf41.html

The B-17s are registed as "heavy bomber" while in this period of the war I think they were still mainly used al long range maritime patrol aircrafts.

Cheers,
Huub

[Snave]

addressing the question of P-36s with the Far East Air Force/Philippines on Dec 7th. There were none... I too was of the assumption that they were there:

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/U.S.-Far-East-Air-Force

P-35 Seversky however were there and came about from an intercepted sale to Sweden...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East_Air_Force_(United_States)

Also here is a great account of the P-36s in action over Oahu on Dec. 7th by one of the best Pearl Harbor historians David Aiken.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200210/ai_n9121096/


Other minutae....
Frances "Gabby" Gabreski of ETO fame was @ Wheeler on Dec 7th and did get up around noon only to abort a mission after taking friendly fire while flying over Pearl Harbor/ Hickam at 5000 ft... **What were they thinking!?! **

Citing Flight Journal June 2007 p24 "Ghosts of Pearl Harbor" also by David Aiken ... I just happen to own that issue... hmm wonder why. ;^)

A P-36 piloted by John Dains was downed by friendly fire from Schofield Barracks near the end of the attack. A little known fact.... John Dains scored the first American victory in World War 2... shooting down a Val that had been strafing the cars on the way to Haleiwa and then the airfield itself.... the plane downed just east of the village of Kaaawa. Downed before Welch and Taylor had downed any aircraft.

Dains earlier had switched planes as he had flown his first 2 sorties in the Haleiwa P-40 as he was among the Welch and Taylor group to beeline to Haleiwa at the beginning of the attack. After the 2nd sortie he had switched to a P-36.

After taking the BAR and small arms fire from Schofield ... Dains crashed and burned in a pineapple field just short of Wheeler.


Pedantically speaking, America didn't declare War on Japan until Dec 8th, so none of the victories on Dec 7th by American pilots are `War` victories... Ten American pilots flew with RAF Fighter Command between July and October 1940 so they predate Pearl Harbor by well over a year, and were indisputably in a declared War, and did not surrender their Nationalities so remained American combatants whatever the state of Neutrality existing in the USA at the time.

Billy Fiske is sometimes acknowledged to have been the first US pilot to score a victory during the Second World War although his single victory prior to his crash on the 16th August 1940 was unconfirmed.
Officially, Lance Cleo Wade is the first American to score a victory - he shot down two Fiat CR-42s on the 18th November, 1941 while flying Hurricanes for the RAF in Egypt.

WWII did not begin in December 1941, it began on the 1st September 1939.

[PRB]

Well, very few wars in history have been formally declared. Usually it's been assumed by both sides that the war has begun when one side starts shooting at the other. A declaration follows, at some point, if ever, when there is time to officially formalize the existing event so the politicians and paper pushers are happy. Don't you remember the words of the President's famous speech to congress? He said he would ask congress to declare that “a state of war has existed”. They did, so that means the war started when the shooting started, which the participants already kind of knew.

It's kind of like the air raid warning system put in place at Port Mreseby in the early days of the Pacific War. They used a set of flags. Green meant "all clear", yellow meant "incoming raid", and red meant "planes overhead". The new guys were told that this was a fool proof system because if you didn't notice the flags, you wouldn't miss the bombs exploding on the airfield!

Interesting about the non-P-36s in the Philippines. I guess we were thinking of P-35s!

In any case, I can't wait for this P-36 to be delivered!

[warchild]

It should be a good one.. I passed off the final version of the FDE to Dean a couple days ago. Hes having his in house FDE guy go over it and make changes according to their needs, so it shouldnt be too much longer now..