OT: Here's a story to make you go WOW!

[Snuffy]

It would appear that certain groups of people need to mind their own business and accept when someone says "No." rather than feel that they know better than the one with the problem.

I'm not saying the eleven year old and her mother are right, but I'm not agreeing with the other group that wants to force their views on the pair either.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/23/year-old-mexican-rape-victim-wants-baby/

And lets keep the comments civil. ;)

[wbuchart]

No winners in this story. I was a one time psych major in college a bazillion decades ago but I still can't fathom why anyone would be interested in an 11 year old girl.....If DNA testing shows the step-dad is the the father he needs to go away for a while...quite a while.

[tigisfat]

hmmm,

that's a rough one. I don't even know what to think. Abortion laws aside, I think that if they are very firmly catholic (or any religion that doesn't allow abortion), then she and her mother should be allowed to make the final decision. It appears they've already made up their minds. The idea of an eleven year old girl is appalling, but being angry about it over the internet doesn't stop her from being pregnant. Someone forcing her to have an abortion is as bad as the rape itself. Abortions, if not thought through, are proven to have devastating effects on women.


I'm just happy the girl's mother is stepping up to the plate. In some 3rd world countries a young woman that's gotten pregnant by any means can be cast out onto the streets.



The best thing to do is to leave them the hell alone.

[Henry]

with the exception of the stepfather
its none of our business or anyone elses thats a personal decision
but i do believe the stepfather should go bye bye for a while
just my opinion
anyone know his IP:salute:
H

[KOM.Nausicaa]

and accept when someone says "No." rather than feel that they know better than the one with the problem.

Sounds exactly like you Snuffy! Civil enough as a comment ?

[cheezyflier]

religious beliefs aside, (seeing as how such a discussion is not allowed here) abortion is murder.
the argument about wether life begins at conception or after is moot. ever see a dead cell grow, or multiply?
of course not. only live cells do that. so, if what is, at conception alive, and it's a person, abortion is murder.
is there ever a point where it's ok to murder someone? well, that's between you and your beliefs. whatever they may be. but the facts are what the facts are.

[Skittles]

religious beliefs aside, (seeing as how such a discussion is not allowed here) abortion is murder.
the argument about wether life begins at conception or after is moot. ever see a dead cell grow, or multiply?
of course not. only live cells do that. so, if what is, at conception alive, and it's a person, abortion is murder.
is there ever a point where it's ok to murder someone? well, that's between you and your beliefs. whatever they may be. but the facts are what the facts are.

Had a shave recently?

Mass murderer.

Facts are definately not facts in this instance.

[lifejogger]

with the exception of the stepfather
its none of our business or anyone elses thats a personal decision
but i do believe the stepfather should go bye bye for a while
just my opinion
anyone know his IP:salute:
H

You are absolutely right Henry:salute::salute::salute:

[jmig]

If it was up to me, provided the stepfather is guilty of rape, I would make sure he never rapped another woman. And, I don't mean chemicals.

[tigisfat]

If it was up to me, provided the stepfather is guilty of rape, I would make sure he never rapped another woman. And, I don't mean chemicals.


yes, rapping is a crime whether it's done to a man or woman, and especially if recorded. I'd like to make sure it never happens again to me, but there's just so much of it I'm overwhelmed.

:173go1::salute:

[cheezyflier]

Had a shave recently?

Mass murderer.

Facts are definately not facts in this instance.

i hope your not serious. since when can you take hair, put it next to something else and it will crawl inside of it and make a complex bio machine? you can't. no matter how much you disagree with me, it's not the same thing. you'll need to do better than that.

[tigisfat]

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/forum%20commentary%20pictures/1227857457979.jpg


I'm taking the radio down the basement and I'll wait this one out. Hopefully I'll be able to hear the all-clear siren and I can help with the post-battle recon. There's gonna be a mess after this one.

[djscoo]

i hope your not serious. since when can you take hair, put it next to something else and it will crawl inside of it and make a complex bio machine? you can't. no matter how much you disagree with me, it's not the same thing. you'll need to do better than that.

what is the process you are describing here?
5447

[Toastmaker]

And if the DNA test they intend to do immediately after birth clears the stepfather of rape ?? The infant should be immediately taken under state care and given up for adoption. What kind of chance will this infant have with an 11 year old mother corrupt enough to falsely accuse a man of that crime?

There was no question of, nor intent to force an abortion on this girl. It may have been an option very early in the pregnancy but not after the first trimester.

[Snuffy]

Following your line of thinking Toastie ... I have to say one thing at this point in time.

IF he's innocent, its too late now, he'll be labeled as a child molester for the rest of his life ... (provided they have that sort of thing in Mexico.)

[Skittles]

i hope your not serious. since when can you take hair, put it next to something else and it will crawl inside of it and make a complex bio machine? you can't. no matter how much you disagree with me, it's not the same thing. you'll need to do better than that.

Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Destroying these cells is no different to eradicating a bacteria. It doesn't matter in the slightest that these cells could go on to create life. Every month a woman flushes her uterus of plenty of cells that would develope into life. Every few hours a man ejects plenty of cells that would develop into life given the chance (ha). Life is 'created' in neither instance. It is already there. getting pregnant just mixes things around into a big mush of cells. There IS an instant in the pregnancy when a foetus gains 'life', by our definition of the term, but to kill the cells in the early stages of the pregnancy is no worse than using alcohol rub on your hands.

Foetal cells in their primitive state, which they are through long periods of the pregnancy, are no different to bacteria in any way shape or form.

[Toastmaker]

Yes, Snuffy, they certainly do have that designation in Mexico as they have a huge problem with domestic violence and child abuse. If he's exonerated and released though, he won't have too much of a social problem.

[Ken Stallings]

I cannot see how anyone outside that family is the least qualified to enter into the situation. Especially to show up at their home with such enticement to pressure the child to do it their way smacks of arrogance run to an extreme level.

This is for the family to decide as they see best able.

The mother showed her concern by having the step father immediately arrested.

Perhaps the mother and the young daughter believe firmly that the only way this criminal action results in anything positive is by rearing the child. If that is their sincere decision, I feel myself completely unqualified to tell them they are wrong!

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Destroying these cells is no different to eradicating a bacteria. It doesn't matter in the slightest that these cells could go on to create life. Every month a woman flushes her uterus of plenty of cells that would develope into life. Every few hours a man ejects plenty of cells that would develop into life given the chance (ha). Life is 'created' in neither instance. It is already there. getting pregnant just mixes things around into a big mush of cells. There IS an instant in the pregnancy when a foetus gains 'life', by our definition of the term, but to kill the cells in the early stages of the pregnancy is no worse than using alcohol rub on your hands.

Foetal cells in their primitive state, which they are through long periods of the pregnancy, are no different to bacteria in any way shape or form.

Comparing human life in any stage to bacteria is frankly shocking.

To me, human life has considerably more meaning and relevancy no matter its stage of development.

Ken

[Snuffy]

Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Destroying these cells is no different to eradicating a bacteria. It doesn't matter in the slightest that these cells could go on to create life. Every month a woman flushes her uterus of plenty of cells that would develope into life. Every few hours a man ejects plenty of cells that would develop into life given the chance (ha). Life is 'created' in neither instance. It is already there. getting pregnant just mixes things around into a big mush of cells. There IS an instant in the pregnancy when a foetus gains 'life', by our definition of the term, but to kill the cells in the early stages of the pregnancy is no worse than using alcohol rub on your hands.

Foetal cells in their primitive state, which they are through long periods of the pregnancy, are no different to bacteria in any way shape or form.

Perhaps you'd like to take that statement and define in particular when a strand of DNA that is living at the time prioir to conception dies and then comes back to life again?

Thanks for your insight on the next answer.

Pst. BTW, its spelled Fetus .. and Fetal

[Skittles]

Comparing human life in any stage to bacteria is frankly shocking.

To me, human life has considerably more meaning and relevancy no matter its stage of development.

Ken

It's not shocking in the slightest. It's only shocking if you think there's any difference whatsoever between the two (which there isn't). There is a point when 'human life' is established - but that is for a different discussion (whether it be at first brain activity or first heartbeat etc).

You can't say that "human life has considerably more meaning and relevancy no matter it's stage of development" because they are exactly the same thing. There is no differentiation until after a significant period of time in the pregnancy. As I said previously, although it is vulgar, many men get rid of plenty of semen, and women get rid of the lining of the uterus monthly. These contain all of the DNA of the individual, and are cells which create life, so why the double standard?

Snuffy - I don't understand what you're asking in the first point. Do you mean at what stage does a collection of cells become a human?

As for the spelling of 'foetus,' 'foetus' and 'foetal' are both completely valid and acceptable, it's just a variation. Strictly speaking you could call me up on the use of the word entirely, because it refers to the child in a developed stage, not the early stages which I am obviously talking about.

[Henry]

seems to me we are going above and beyond
the original thread
who wants to be here tomorrow
to post?
H

[Skittles]

seems to me we are going above and beyond
the original thread
who wants to be here tomorrow
to post?
H

Henry we're having a perfectly respectful and amicable debate. Furthermore it is completely related to the topic - points that have been raised in this thread are fundamental to the problems which are afflicting the young girl and the other parties mentioned.

If you don't like a thread then of course you can close it, but please don't threaten us with bans for what is a well spirited and interesting discussion.

[Ken Stallings]

It's not shocking in the slightest.

No doubt not shocking for you. However, I submit very shocking and cold for not only myself but for many other people as well. When I entered into this thread, I endeavored to merely post my objective observations on the topic and avoid reply to other comments. But truly, your comparison was simply too shocking to ignore.

Human life is special and sacred and for my suits cannot be reduced to cold analysis. For me a scientific understanding simply increases the sacredness. It does not provide a basis for antiseptic comparisons. In short the way in which a human life develops does not pass a litmus test for meaning. The meaning is entirely within the human potential for special achievement and that potential starts immediately upon conception. I submit that this concept is at the heart of this family's decision to bring the child to birth and by doing so salvage something noble resulting from something so horribly criminal.

Ken

[Skittles]

No doubt not shocking for you. However, I submit very shocking and cold for not only myself but for many other people as well. When I entered into this thread, I endeavored to merely post my objective observations on the topic and avoid reply to other comments. But truly, your comparison was simply too shocking to ignore.

Human life is special and sacred and for my suits cannot be reduced to cold analysis. For me a scientific understanding simply increases the sacredness. It does not provide a basis for antiseptic comparisons. In short the way in which a human life develops does not pass a litmus test for meaning. The meaning is entirely within the human potential for special achievement and that potential starts immediately upon conception.

Ken

I agree completely that human life is special and sacred, and that it cannot be reduced to cold analysis. My point is that at what point are we talking about human life? In regards to your comments about scientific understanding not providing a basis for comparisons, in my opinion it does entirely.

Fundamentally this boils down to the age old 'abortion question' - at what point during a pregnancy does a life become independant. There are people such as yourself who view that moment as the moment of conception, and believe it or not there are people that believe a childs life is not valid until they are outside of the womb and breathing for themselves. It is a question that we are not going to solve with any level of discussion - people more knowledgable than us have debated the matter for decades.

In regards to your comment about my viewpoint being 'cold,' I find it equally cold that anyone who has an abortion is a murderer (which I know is not a point you raised but has been mentioned), and that this is an absolute fact.

Are we to say that if this girl had understandably decided that at 11 years old after a rape she didn't want a child and aborted the pregnancy at the early stages, she is a murderer?

Thanks for your thoughts. Obviously we must leave it here.

Edit: Apologies for the double quote at the start of this post. I've tried deleting it but it keeps coming back!

[Ken Stallings]

Agreed. We must agree to disagree. :engel016:

However, I do sincerely agree with your second point that the child and the mother have every inherent right to decide the fate of the unborn child in accordance with their best judgment of what's in everyone's interest in that family. On that, you are correct in my view.

Cheers,

Ken

[Skittles]

Agreed. We must agree to disagree. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken

Good. And anyway, I'm sure we agree on one thing - what should be done to the stepfather!
:ernae:

[Ken Stallings]

Good. And anyway, I'm sure we agree on one thing - what should be done to the stepfather!
:ernae:

No doubt!

He's a pure thug and criminal of the highest order.

Ken

[Henry]

Henry we're having a perfectly respectful and amicable debate. Furthermore it is completely related to the topic - points that have been raised in this thread are fundamental to the problems which are afflicting the young girl and the other parties mentioned.

If you don't like a thread then of course you can close it, but please don't threaten us with bans for what is a well spirited and interesting discussion.
you can disagree but where did the discussion about abortion start
must have gone adrift
in my opinion
political , religious
whatever beliefs
im not threatening just a comment
cross that line why dont ya
H
H

[Snuffy]

... Snuffy - I don't understand what you're asking in the first point. Do you mean at what stage does a collection of cells become a human? ...

Sorry didn't mean to ask such a difficult question.

Since H is puttin a stop or a throttle on this discussion I'll leave it go here ....

And with regard to the article ... I'm not making any judgements on nothing.

[cheezyflier]

you can disagree but where did the discussion about abortion start
must have gone adrift
in my opinion
political , religious
whatever beliefs
im not threatening just a comment
cross that line why dont ya
H
H

threads go adrift all the time here. up to this point the discussion has been entirely civil. there has been no religious or political elements discussed. with all due respect, i understand that you may feel uncomfortable with where the thread is going, but threatening to ban people is not constructive. surely you can come up with viable alternatives without resorting to threats?

[jmig]

I would be very surprised if the step-father proves to NOT be the father. The 11 yr old girl IS pregnant. Someone got her pregnant. Unless, she is covering for a boyfriend, brother, uncle, cousin, etc., none of whom are mentioned in the article, I don't think she would falsely blame the step-father.

I am going to assume that the police considered other possible suspects and ruled them out. I am also going to assume that an 11 yr old is not going to get herself pregnant just so she can frame the step-father, whom she may not like.

On another note:

Cheezy, I didn't read any threat to ban anyone in Henry's post. I saw a call to order. A call to return to the original theme of the thread. While you are correct in stating that threads often roam away from the original theme into other areas, the Staff are watching for threads that take a turn into the religious and political arenas. We are trying to keep threads from getting so far into the religious or political arena that we have to close them.

I would love to make a statement on the differences between human life and bio-masses. However, I will follow Henry's advise and refrain.

[Toastmaker]

Although it is entirely possible (and even probable, since it's a common event in Mexico) that the step-father is guilty - we are all convicting him in advance, and even in Mexico's draconian justice system, they don't do that!

This event took place in the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, where I lived from 1995 to 2006. I will (through friends there) follow this so that I can report the results of the planned DNA test since it will have dropped off the American news media's radar by then.

Although I understand the point Ken and others made about this being the family's business - if this girl is lying, it should immediately become the state's business in order to protect the interests of the infant.

[TARPSBird]

In all Third World countries girls help their mothers take care of younger siblings, but normally those siblings grow up and the girls are then free to make of themselves whatever their education and economic level allows. I'm sure this girl could care for her child (probably better than some parents here in the US) but that's a big permanent responsibility to put on an 11-year-old. In any case the decision to have an abortion or carry the child to term should be left to the family and not imposed by some government agency. The government's responsibility is to hold accountable the step-father or whoever is found responsible for molesting the girl.
Although this thread has stayed civil (surprising considering the subject), I still have to ask, why do people keep posting stuff here that is obviously likely to deteriorate into a locked thread and more bitching about forum censorship???

[oakfloor]

Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Destroying these cells is no different to eradicating a bacteria. It doesn't matter in the slightest that these cells could go on to create life. Every month a woman flushes her uterus of plenty of cells that would develope into life. Every few hours a man ejects plenty of cells that would develop into life given the chance (ha). Life is 'created' in neither instance. It is already there. getting pregnant just mixes things around into a big mush of cells. There IS an instant in the pregnancy when a foetus gains 'life', by our definition of the term, but to kill the cells in the early stages of the pregnancy is no worse than using alcohol rub on your hands.

Foetal cells in their primitive state, which they are through long periods of the pregnancy, are no different to bacteria in any way shape or form.
People like this make the world such a nice place to live.

[Ken Stallings]

Although it is entirely possible (and even probable, since it's a common event in Mexico) that the step-father is guilty - we are all convicting him in advance, and even in Mexico's draconian justice system, they don't do that!

This event took place in the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, where I lived from 1995 to 2006. I will (through friends there) follow this so that I can report the results of the planned DNA test since it will have dropped off the American news media's radar by then.

Although I understand the point Ken and others made about this being the family's business - if this girl is lying, it should immediately become the state's business in order to protect the interests of the infant.

I think it is unlikely the step father would be blamed if not guilty, but you are right in what you say. I would be happy if you keep an eye on this and let us know when critical events take place.

Cheers,

Ken

[Bjoern]

Depending on the term of pregnancy, the foetus is nothing more than a collection of dividing cells. No sentience, no feelings, no structure, no intelligence, no different from common bacteria. An ant has more intelligence and sentience than a foetus for huge periods of time during a pregnancy.

Yeah, something like that.

On a sidenote, human beings are nothing but a bunch of growing, dividing and dying cells in various forms either.



As for the original issue: They're free to do whatever they want. Exchange opinions, work out a concensus and done.

[MCDesigns]

I cannot see how anyone outside that family is the least qualified to enter into the situation. Especially to show up at their home with such enticement to pressure the child to do it their way smacks of arrogance run to an extreme level.

This is for the family to decide as they see best able.

The mother showed her concern by having the step father immediately arrested.

Perhaps the mother and the young daughter believe firmly that the only way this criminal action results in anything positive is by rearing the child. If that is their sincere decision, I feel myself completely unqualified to tell them they are wrong!

Ken

This is one of those topics my Dad and I go round and round on, he is pro life and I am pro choice

Abortion or not, this is between the mother and the daughter, everyone else can go, well you know.

And if guilty the step dad should be shot!

[Skittles]

Yeah, something like that.

On a sidenote, human beings are nothing but a bunch of growing, dividing and dying cells in various forms either.

With sentience/advanced brain activity. It makes all the difference.


People like this make the world such a nice place to live.

Scientists?

Yes, we do thanks.

[oakfloor]

With sentience/advanced brain activity. It makes all the difference.



Scientists?

Yes, we do thanks.
For everyone except, unborn children.

[djscoo]

For everyone except, unborn children.
Scientists have done wonders in advancing pre- and post-natal care for mothers and children.

[oakfloor]

Scientists have done wonders in advancing pre- and post-natal care for mothers and children.
Yes, your right, they use there knowlodge to save life, not to destroy it.

[cheezyflier]

Yes, your right, they use there knowlodge to save life, not to destroy it.

except when they create weapons. i don't really have a point to make, i just wanted to add something. :wiggle:

[Snuffy]

except when they create weapons. i don't really have a point to make, i just wanted to add something. :wiggle:

You already have a point Cheesy! And we all know where it is! LOL! :wavey:

[oakfloor]

except when they create weapons. i don't really have a point to make, i just wanted to add something. :wiggle:
Unless that life they wish to destroy is yours, and then that weapon you use to defend your self or loved ones is not so bad after all.

[Bjoern]

With sentience/advanced brain activity. It makes all the difference.

Well, it makes us the current pinnacle in that department for sure.

But then again, who are we to dare making ourselves more important than other species? Just because we can?

[Skittles]

Well, it makes us the current pinnacle in that department for sure.

But then again, who are we to dare making ourselves more important than other species? Just because we can?

The millions of animals we eat every day probably agree with your sentement. I dare not delve into it, I don't think we would get anywhere.

[Snuffy]

The millions of animals we eat every day probably agree with your sentient. I dare not delve into it, I don't think we would get anywhere.

Actually I don't think they can agree ... as first of all most animals I eat are usually dead and well cooked at the time therefore rendering their ability to "think" useless.

Secondly, animals as we know, are not (whats the word they use on star trek, sentient beings(?),) or on an equal par with humans in that they are not capable of free will choice, they are instinctive therefore lesser creatures than we horrible humans.

I'll quit now ...

[djscoo]

Actually I don't think they can agree ... as first of all most animals I eat are usually dead and well cooked at the time therefore rendering their ability to "think" useless.

Secondly, animals as we know, are not (whats the word they use on star trek, sentient beings(?),) or on an equal par with humans in that they are not capable of free will choice, they are instinctive therefore lesser creatures than we horrible humans.

I'll quit now ...

Are humans capable of free will in choice? Are we not instinctual? Perhaps so, but it may not necessarily be a positive thing to ignore your instincts as they have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to keep you alive.

[Snuffy]

Actually we were rendered with free will long before we became "instinctive" ... as instinct pertaining to humans is something that has to be learned over time, with animals its intuitive and from the begining.

(0h! and please fix those double Are(s) you have ... made it exceptionally difficult to read. )

[djscoo]

Actually we were rendered with free will long before we became "instinctive" ... as instinct pertaining to humans is something that has to be learned over time, with animals its intuitive and from the begining.

(0h! and please fix those double Are(s) you have ... made it exceptionally difficult to read. )

I fixed it, sorry for the confusion.

[Henry]

how did we get here from there?
H

[Snuffy]

how did we get here from there?
H

It wasn't exactly a straight line I can tell you that for sure.

[Toastmaker]

how did we get here from there?
H




We flew, of course - this is the SOH !

:running: (just an excuse to use the walkie guy)

[Henry]

We flew, of course - this is the SOH !

:running: (just an excuse to use the walkie guy)
you do understand that i have to keep up with him
and as a smoker thats hard
wheres the limpi guy when ya need it
H

[Clarke123]

you do understand that i have to keep up with him
and as a smoker thats hard
wheres the limpi guy when ya need it
H
Found 'im 5867:icon_lol:

[HundertzehnGustav]

No doubt not shocking for you. However, I submit very shocking and cold for not only myself but for many other people as well. When I entered into this thread, I endeavored to merely post my objective observations on the topic and avoid reply to other comments. But truly, your comparison was simply too shocking to ignore.

Human life is special and sacred and for my suits cannot be reduced to cold analysis. For me a scientific understanding simply increases the sacredness. It does not provide a basis for antiseptic comparisons. In short the way in which a human life develops does not pass a litmus test for meaning. The meaning is entirely within the human potential for special achievement and that potential starts immediately upon conception. I submit that this concept is at the heart of this family's decision to bring the child to birth and by doing so salvage something noble resulting from something so horribly criminal.

Ken

well if you are so superior, that you attempt to speak for others, please let me point out that i request you not to speak out, and express your opinion for me.
Thank you. I have become old enough to do that by now.

Humans are bacteria. Water. Biological mass. electricity. and often enough insanity. Stupid enough to think they are superior to cockroaches... wich they aren't.
And i can treat it as such with no remorse whatsoever.

OT:
give the stepfather a break. let the child come to "life" and check the DNA then.
Stepfather guilty: he gone
Stepfather not guilty: Child gone to a safer place.

Thanks snuffy for your line of thinking, about the "evil" 11 year old mother throwing accusations around.
Would wish anyone to have a mother like that.

[oakfloor]

well if you are so superior, that you attempt to speak for others, please let me point out that i request you not to speak out, and express your opinion for me.
Thank you. I have become old enough to do that by now.

Humans are bacteria. Water. Biological mass. electricity. and often enough insanity. Stupid enough to think they are superior to cockroaches... wich they aren't.
And i can treat it as such with no remorse whatsoever.

OT:
give the stepfather a break. let the child come to "life" and check the DNA then.
Stepfather guilty: he gone
Stepfather not guilty: Child gone to a safer place.

Thanks snuffy for your line of thinking, about the "evil" 11 year old mother throwing accusations around.
Would wish anyone to have a mother like that.
It's O.K. your still a "Good" person, no matter what you think of yourself. Enjoy your cockroaches, just dont let them outsmart you.

[Henry]

Ok this just got personal
H
i guess 2 people are in trouble

[Snuffy]

Ok this just got personal
H
i guess 2 people are in trouble


Lock it up H. :) You have my permission.

[Henry]

Lock it up H. :) You have my permission.
thanks:salute:
H

[cheezyflier]

woohoo!!!!! in before the lock!

i don't have anything to add, i just wanted to get in here :wavey:

[tigisfat]

woohoo!!!!! in before the lock!

i don't have anything to add, i just wanted to get in here :wavey:

me too!!

Maybe it's not gonna get locked....

[jmig]

*He keeps hoping the thread will die a natural death from old age.*

[Toastmaker]

woohoo!!!!! in before the lock!

i don't have anything to add, i just wanted to get in here :wavey:





Cheezyflier - Famous party crasher !!



Die you miserable beast - DIE !!

:running: