new P-36 screenies...

[warchild]

I seem to recall someone wanting to see more of this livery, and since i was out doing a very lazy test flight and had nothing better to do while i waited to see if the nose rose or fell ( it didnt ), I snapped the first pic. The second pic, i took at Portland international.. I love the way you can see Mt hood reflected in the chrome..

Please remember, this is a beta version only. its still being developed on all sides.. For my end, i breathed wrong and lost my ability to spin so i havr to gain that back without changing anything else.. A real ffeat with this guy... But dont fret. It'll be flying as close as i can possibly get it to the real thing very soon now..

Pam

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/urushira/2010-4-19_21-29-54-108.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/urushira/2010-4-19_21-56-9-329.jpg

PS.. The pics have only been re-sized. nothing else was done to them...

[spotlope]

That is one FINE looking aircraft. Can't wait to take 'er for a spin, and with what you've said of the dynamics, it should be a heck of a spin. ;)

[roger-wilco-66]

This is some stunning artwork! You almost can feel the rivets on the second picture.

I think this will be a must-have!


Cheers,
Mark

[Matt Wynn]

oh it most certainly will be a heck of a spin... knowing Pam and her 'Tolerances' shall we say this'll be a real gem to fly...

[BOOM]

WOW!!! Beautiful!!!!:salute:

[mohawk3]

Seems to use the same pilot model as the SBD...And seems to have the same odd double curvature of the right arm..or am I wrong??
The a/c model is impressive, very well done!

[BOOM]

Seems to use the same pilot model as the SBD...And seems to have the same odd double curvature of the right arm..or am I wrong??
The a/c model is impressive, very well done!

This is Vertigo Studio's Test Pilot,He's Pro rated on both birds!!!!:jump:

[huub vink]

I seem to recall someone wanting to see more of this livery,..

Thanks for the images Pam, it was me who made the request.
The P36/H-75 is definitely a astonishing model!

Huub

[noddy]

What a beauty for sure :salute:

[Cleartheprop]

It for sure is a winner! I'll sign for it.

[Cirrus N210MS]

can't wait to take this bird for a spin! looks sweet!:salute:

[warchild]

This is Vertigo Studio's Test Pilot,He's Pro rated on both birds!!!!:jump:

::roflmao:: Damn straight :::LOL::: and he doesnt complain during the flat spin tests that end up in the ground :::LOL::
works cheap too ...
God i love your reply.. what a great way to wake up..

[Bomber_12th]

Looking good - love the bare metal! I'm curious about the shape of the spine and rear glazing of the aircraft, however - by the first screenshot, it looks to suddenly dip downward, half-way through the rear glazing, straight to the antenna, where the angle changes again. Perhaps I am wrong, and it is just that screenshot throwing off the look.

The spine and the rear glazing 'should' feature a very subtle curving line, coming from the canopy to the tail. The rear glazing is a very sleek design in itself. Hopefully this might be something helpful to pass on to the modeler, if in fact any work needs to be done:

[Deano]

The model is to far gone now to correct additional modeling issues, that was the reason for canopy alterations and screenshot releases early doors.


Looking good - love the bare metal! I'm curious about the shape of the spine and rear glazing of the aircraft, however - by the first screenshot, it looks to suddenly dip downward, half-way through the rear glazing, straight to the antenna, where the angle changes again. Perhaps I am wrong, and it is just that screenshot throwing off the look.

The spine and the rear glazing 'should' feature a very subtle curving line, coming from the canopy to the tail. The rear glazing is a very sleek design in itself. Hopefully this might be something helpful to pass on to the modeler, if in fact any work needs to be done:

[Bomber_12th]

It's understandable Dean.

[warchild]

there is quite a bit of camera perspective going on in those shots too, though i admit that there is a bend in the model.. What i cant quote on, is exactly which version of the P-36 the model was based on. Given its level of detail though, i'm sure it is accurate for at least one of them.. Sadly, three views blueprints nd engineering plans for separate versions of aircraft, are not always obtainable. sometimes we're lucky if we can get our paws on just one set for one version, and i think maybe ( no guarantee here now ) our modeller simply ran into that particular wall and had to work with what he had..

[Bomber_12th]

Photos like the one I posted, aren't actually all that bad to go off of, and there are many on the web - especially as it is the real thing, instead of an artist's concept, as most three-views are. I applaud anyone for doing the P-36, and I wish I wasn't as familiar with the real thing as I am, otherwise I wouldn't be so 'anal' about it. :d

[ryanbatc]

That's an exquisite model!

[warchild]

i wanted to find out if what i was saying was true or if i was just expressing an educated guess.. SO, i took herup and got this pic.. She doesnt seem to be much different than the pic you posted ( though there is a little ) and it does appear that perspective and lens magnification were doing something weird around that bend in the spine.. but over all, i think wer got pretty close.. You guys tell me :) ..
Oh yeah.. the Pic has been heavily edited for color brightness contrast and size...

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/urushira/2010-4-20_15-9-5-522.jpg

[warchild]

Oh and Bomber.. Your more than allowed to be anal about it.. We're doing our best to get it perfect, but even with such a simple plane, theres just so many things to be covered that sometimes we dont get to see the forest for the trees, and external knowledge and opinion is a major help...

The problem with using photos in designing these things is that you can only work on one elevation at a time.. side view, top view or front/back view and to build these, you need all three views in scale to create a box within which you can build the model.. Pics just simply dont work as most pics only cover one view, and are taken from angles that are not straight on.. that presents major problems with scaling and shape, so, at this point three views and if you can get them, blueprints, are the best modelers can hope for..

[Ken Stallings]

Looking good - love the bare metal! I'm curious about the shape of the spine and rear glazing of the aircraft, however - by the first screenshot, it looks to suddenly dip downward, half-way through the rear glazing, straight to the antenna, where the angle changes again. Perhaps I am wrong, and it is just that screenshot throwing off the look.

The spine and the rear glazing 'should' feature a very subtle curving line, coming from the canopy to the tail. The rear glazing is a very sleek design in itself. Hopefully this might be something helpful to pass on to the modeler, if in fact any work needs to be done:

Perhaps I'm being blind, but having compared the photo you posted to the earlier screenshots, I'm not seeing a discernable difference in appearance.

Cheers,

Ken

[PRB]

I can see the difference John pointed out, but it won't be a "show stopper" for me. I would not have noticed it at all had John not pointed it out.

[warchild]

Perhaps I'm being blind, but having compared the photo you posted to the earlier screenshots, I'm not seeing a discernable difference in appearance.

Cheers,

Ken

Your one of a rare group of people who can see through the camera's jedi mind tricks of compressed perspective. to my own eyes, the close up pic looks like the spine has a major bend in it.. thats why i know its compressed perspective, but others may only see a heavy bend, and not realize its a camera trick.. Thats a rare gift you have.. i wish i had that good of an eye..

[Bomber_12th]

I remember a time in which, if someone made the original comment I had in this thread, that I would have thought, well who cares? It surprises me now, that I have found myself on the opposite end. I could also see people question why I am going off about this plane in particular, again - it just so happens that unlike so many other product releases in recent times, that I haven't cared to look closely at, because of a lack of interest in the aircraft type, I am actually really interested in having a Hawk 75/P-36 in FSX, and to have one that looks spot-on, and fly accurately, well that would just be amazing - and the first opportunity I have had, since starting into flight sim in 2003! Casual-simmers, who come into buying the product, having not known much if anything about the plane, will not spot errors, yet they will not spot the many accuracies either - the accuracies that I have seen, and really, really like about how this product has been progressing so-far.

I unfortunately have come to look at things differently, since getting into aircraft development, even more so recently - just this morning I was adjusting vertices and remapping some areas of the wings on an on-going project that I had thought I had gotten right in this area, almost a year ago - thanks to some fresh eyes. I really appreciate the attention to detail spent on so many areas of the aircraft to get it right, and no doubt, the visuals look superb. It is extremely close, and I can understand the eagerness to get the product finished and released.

[Snave]

One thing that the real and beta shots DO show is that the scale of the pilot model is wrong. This is a particular pecadillo of mine as any number of aftermarket developers seem to think either that all pilots are stumpy dwarf gits or all airplanes are the size of a 747.

Scale of the pilot is never more important than with fighter aircraft which are designed to have minimal frontal area to go as fast as possible with whatever engine is fitted. Ergonomically, the Beta looks like the pilot is about 5` tall and with the build of a racing snake. The whole plane was only 28` feet long, but it looks about 40 if you extrapolate the pilot as the scale, and for me it destroys the illusion.

Compare:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p36-3.jpg

[Deano]

I guess the only course of action is for me to remove the pilot altogether so as to not destroy the illusion.

[Snave]

I guess the only course of action is for me to remove the pilot altogether so as to not destroy the illusion.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it would be better to remove the pilot if it's too much trouble to do it right. Better still to simply re-scale and re-size the original so that he/she is in keeping with the scale of the airplane.

Or I suppose you could rescale the entire model to suit the pilot size. Scale is a subjective issue in FS anyway.

Proportion is not, as this topic has shown.

[warchild]

yeahhh, scaling up the size of the pilot isnt too hard.. hide the planes vertices, select the pilot, aand choose linear scaling..can be done in a few minutes ( unlike the shape of the spine which could take hours).. You could also lose some vertices by chopping off the pilots legs at the knee... ::shrugs:; just ideas..

One thing is extremely true.. Dean and his team at vertigo, and I and Paul have put more time and energy into this plane than perhaps any other plane we have individually ever worked on.. I myself have spent the most of the last month working with the same five calculations, and admittedly trying to fudge them when FSX didnt do what I and paul believe the real plane should do.. If i increase the instability on yaw and pitch, it stops spinning and stalling.. If i increase the stability, it spins and stalls, but then it flies like its on rails.. FSX is being very weird, and i'm no genius.. At this very moment, i have it spining and stalling on my machine, but it flies like its on rails on Pauls machine.. Its enough to make you pull hair out. I'm sure Dean has experienced similar..

One of the main issues i've been dealing with is that, there isnt one single person alive that flew this thing, that i can find.. We have the manual ( its in french but we can translate ) but that still doesnt tell me the important stuff. Unlike other models i have made, i cannot at this time, and will not gaurantee that it flies true to the real aircraft.. It flies true to the calculations, and it meets the requirements and expectations as proscribed by the manual, but to be honest, i'll never know if i did it right, and i'll never say i did.. but, i know that all dimensional calculations are correct, that the MAC is correct, that the horizontal tail lift is correct. that the power train calculations are correct, that the roll and bank rate will be correct ( its a little fast on the roll at this moment ).. I can gaurantee that this is the most enjoyable plane to fly i have ever worked on, because after i dont know how many grueling months of living inside a calculator, and starting up FSX umpteen times a day for test flights on every single variable, i still love flying it.. The only other plane thats like that for me is the c-27, and it will be finished later this year.. Rotation can be at 80 mph without flaps. Top speed without using emergency boost is 312 mph.. cruise is at 250 mph.. landing is wobbly but can be done at 85 mph.. brakes work as expected if the tail is on the ground, but they'll flip you nose over if the tail is off the ground.. At low speeds she takes a bit of love to keep in the air and fly right, and at an incline over 60 degrees, a stall will take you for a ride you simply do not want to go on, and it will keep you there all the way to the ground..

Please understand, this plane is quite simply the very best work we've ever done. many people know my work, and Paul and i pulled out all the stops on this one and went light years beyond anything we've ever done before, and you know deans work. its impeccable. together, his team and my tam are putting together something special. it may not be perfect, none of what any of us devs ever do, is, but if it isnt perfect, it isnt because we havent tried.. :)..

And please, please keep expressing your opinions. To me, they are invaluable. the only drawback for me there is that i wont be able to get your opinions of my work till after the plane is released.. But i still want to know.. I need to know..
Love you all.. :)
Pam

[warchild]

omg.. i can see where the spine thing is happening.. Look at the image of the planes just above, with the canopy open.. it visually looks identical, to our plane if you dont look too close..
i just saw that and had to say something.. At a glance, it makes it look like the spine has a hump..

[MudMarine]

GIVE ME THE PLANE!!! Please..........:jump:

[huub vink]

Snave, I tend to disagree with you about the size of the pilot (with all respect of course). When you compare the position of the top of the head and the top of the shoulders of the virtual pilot with the French pilot on the picture you posted you can see they are at the same height compared with the canopy. The main difference is in the volume. But perhaps this has to do with French cheese, French wine, French fries, etc.

Cheers,
Huub

[Snave]

Oh I agree it's a question of perception, what I am surprised at is the discussion about the shape of the roof line is a matter of debate, whereas a comment about the size of the pilot results in an asinine, snide comment from the developer instead of a discussion. Curious, but it happens.

I shall refrain from positing further on the Hawk, as it clearly isn't going to be a model for me, as I don't buy payware, no matter how good, if the scale of included characters is inappropriate as for me it shatters the illusion in any and all external viewpoints, and in my experience often proves to be an indicator of the care with which the rest of the model has been put together. The purpose of a `progressive` beta display in a forum is not only to curry interest in the eventual product but also to solicit opinion and critique from the potential customer base.

As I now exclude myself from that, there's no reason to proceed further on this matter for my benefit. But thanks for your input.:salute:

[peter12213]

I have never noticed that before on the model but now you pointed it out the pilot is too small or the aircraft is too big, one of the too!

[MudMarine]

Pilots come in diffrent sizes.....!:icon_lol: I've seen big ones that fill the pit and I've seen small ones that need a seat booster to see over the instrument panel! It's a human thing I guess. I WANT THIS PLANE BAD! Its beautiflu!:jump::salute::icon_lol:

[Henry]

Pilots come in diffrent sizes.....!:icon_lol: I've seen big ones that fill the pit and I've seen small ones that need a seat booster to see over the instrument panel! It's a human thing I guess. I WANT THIS PLANE BAD! Its beautiflu!:jump::salute::icon_lol:
i would tend to go along with that also
H

[PRB]

Everyone has different things that are regarded as critical and non-critical. For me, the size of the pilot bon-homme is not important. In fact, I wouldn't even care if there was no pilot. I spend most of my time in the cockpit. But everyone is different. I think that somewhere in this thread, Deano pointed out that there has been other threads about this plane, earlier in its development, during which input was solicited, and that now, it may be a little too far along in development for such changes. I don't mean to speak for Deano and the rest of the team, but they may release a patch for a bigger pilot in the future. For me the bend in the cockpit shape behind the canopy is more critical, but that's because we're all different, and even that is not that big a deal for me. In any case, some perspective may be in order by remembering that it isn't a real plane, but a simulated one...

[huub vink]

As I now exclude myself from that, there's no reason to proceed further on this matter for my benefit. But thanks for your input.:salute:

I'm sorry to hear that Snave, apart from the section with the French fries etc. I was quite serious! Look at the picture below. The pilot looks even smaller than the pilot in the model. I assume this looks like this because he is skinny. Nevertheless his shoulders and the top of his head is almost at the same level as the model and the picture.
The pilot in the model leans backwards while the French pilots all lean forward, which gives a different impression as well.

But like PRB already said, you are supposed to be flying an aircraft from the cockpit ;)

Cheers,
Huub

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/Huub_Vink/36431_4196.jpg

[SpaceWeevil]

One of the main issues i've been dealing with is that, there isnt one single person alive that flew this thing, that i can find..
Pam
Pam, Bomber's picture was of the Fighter Collection Hawk at Duxford. Don't know if it's still there or still airworthy, but if it is I guess they'd know? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time!

[Bomber_12th]

Stephen Grey, Nick Grey, and Steve Hinton are just a few names of those who have flown The Fighter Collection's Hawk 75. Not sure if they've ever published a pilot-report on flying it however, though there are means of trying to contact them for information, such as through the museums they operate - The Fighter Collection and Planes of Fame. It could very well take a while to get there however, and actually come into enough contact with them to get the answers - making the exercise of correcting the aircraft's spine and rear glazing a rather short-time task, in comparison - I'm still cursing myself for not noticing this area in earlier screenshots. In retrospect, I would have loved to have been involved with the project, but obviously I should have made a better effort to - and that is if you would have me (just as a warning, the Bearcat is another favorite of mine, perhaps even more so than the P-36). :d

[huub vink]

Reading John's comments made me think about the time I was still glueing plastic aircraft kits together. Especially from popular aircrafts, every manufacturer had at least one model. I can remember Messerschmitts Bf109 in all sizes and shapes. It was amazing to see how much difference in size there was between all these kits which suppose to be on 1/72 scale......

Although they all had errors, I did built most of them, as they all had their strong points as well. I think there is not much difference with these virtual models.

I have checked and I have 7 different P-51s installed in FS9 and FSX (Sorry John not the Warbirdsim one). None of them is perfect and I can find several mistakes in all of them. Nevertheless I love them all for their strong points ;)

I think the P-36 looks stunning and is very close to the real thing. As it is definitely the best around I think this will be the P-36 to go for.

Cheers,
Huub

[Roger]

I'm quite happy with the size of said pilot...if he were much taller he wouldn't be able to close the canopy!

[warchild]

Pam, Bomber's picture was of the Fighter Collection Hawk at Duxford. Don't know if it's still there or still airworthy, but if it is I guess they'd know? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time!

Noo, your not missing anything at all.. Just what appears to be ( from other posts with emotional bent here) my inability to communicate clearly.. I'd love to see the collection at duxford, but fear thats about 8 thousand miles further than i'll ever get. That not withstanding, what I ( and i presume a lot of dynamics engineers ) would need is an hour sitting quietly with real pilot having tea or coffee. I want to have his description, see his eyes, listen to the inflection in his voice, learn first hand how the soul of this machine reached out and touched him. because really, what i do isnt about looks, what i do is about the way it pumps its blood ( fuel ) manages is appendages ( control surfaces ) and moves in responce to what its brain ( the pilot ) tells it to do. WWas the plane a brute ( clumsy and hard to manage ) or a ballerina ( light and nimble ) or just a factory worker ( reliable and strong though not an expert at anything )?? ultimately, thats what my numbers should supply you the pilot, so you can have the same experience in this simulator that the real pilot had in the real plane.. At least, thats what its all about for me and Paul. Making it as absolutely real in its flight, as is humanly possible.

[warchild]

Stephen Grey, Nick Grey, and Steve Hinton are just a few names of those who have flown The Fighter Collection's Hawk 75. Not sure if they've ever published a pilot-report on flying it however, though there are means of trying to contact them for information, such as through the museums they operate - The Fighter Collection and Planes of Fame. It could very well take a while to get there however, and actually come into enough contact with them to get the answers - making the exercise of correcting the aircraft's spine and rear glazing a rather short-time task, in comparison - I'm still cursing myself for not noticing this area in earlier screenshots. In retrospect, I would have loved to have been involved with the project, but obviously I should have made a better effort to - and that is if you would have me (just as a warning, the Bearcat is another favorite of mine, perhaps even more so than the P-36). :d

Bomber!!, your a gift from above.. Thank you :) :) :) :) I'll see if i can contact these gentlemen :) ..

[warchild]

and that is if you would have me (just as a warning, the Bearcat is another favorite of mine, perhaps even more so than the P-36). :d

Thanks Bomber.. I'm afraid thats not my call though.. Jade island is a family of about 15 people, and its an open famly so good pople are always welcome, but on this project, only i Paul and Butch are cleared to work on this model. I'm nnot certain about the F8F as we havent had the opportunity to even begin thinking about that one.. we just know the model is being worked on but its ot ready for my team, and even if it was, right now, the p-36 is getting close to its deadline and we need to focus 100 percent of our attention on it.. Lets see what Dean says about the F8f when we get there.. i appreciate people on my team who know what they're doing and arent afraid to to get down and dirty and tell me ive screwed up and where.. :)..

[warchild]

I'm quite happy with the size of said pilot...if he were much taller he wouldn't be able to close the canopy!

eh.. I live in a logging community. maybe my perceptions are skewed because of that.. Guys around here tend to be a little beefier because of the nature of their work.. We grow some big boys up here, mountain men, so, maybe i was being a little harsh as well..

[warchild]

The pilot looks even smaller than the pilot in the model. I assume this looks like this because he is skinny. ;)

Cheers,
Huub

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/Huub_Vink/36431_4196.jpg

Not wanting to go off topic, but OMG Huub.. Thank you!!.. I've never seen an actual photograph of that livery and its my very favorite. Ive gotta save this one :) .. And yes, perhaps i too was a bit hard about the plots size.. Its so easy for all of us to create an idealized image, and we forget that although the plane itself may be almost exactly like ten million other planes, the plots are human, and none of us are ever ideal. we om in all different shapes and sizes and looks and personalities.. Thank the gods for that ( which ever direction you take on that path )..

[huub vink]

Pam,

The picture I posted earlier is most probably artificially coloured. The picture below has a bit wierd contrast and tone, but shows the original colours a bit better.

Cheers,
Huub

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/Huub_Vink/1805934613_424c36b836_o.jpg

[Ken Stallings]

Your one of a rare group of people who can see through the camera's jedi mind tricks of compressed perspective. to my own eyes, the close up pic looks like the spine has a major bend in it.. thats why i know its compressed perspective, but others may only see a heavy bend, and not realize its a camera trick.. Thats a rare gift you have.. i wish i had that good of an eye..

Why thanks, I uggh ... think! :icon_lol:

[warchild]

Why thanks, I uggh ... think! :icon_lol:

I wish my eyes were still that good :)..

[boxcar]

.


Pilots come in diffrent sizes.....! :icon_lol:


Indeed... some men are larger than others. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-028.gif

.
Been following this project for a while now as she comes to life & am impressed with the images as well as all of the heart going into this classic. Have been eagerly awaiting the F8f Bearcat, an all-time personal fave right up there with the F-5e-LO, but I'll say that I'm looking forward to flying the P-36... & maintaining a nervous vigilance watching for an A6M while I do. ~grinning~

*Edit*- Eat more carrots, Pam... preferably organic. :) Acai is amazing too, but only personally
affordable when saved for & purchased in bulk. Amazing turn-a-rounds for vision, they are.
Am a warchild myself, actually, conception initiated in the back seat of a '47 Dodge on the
banks of Geist Reservoir N.E. of Indianapolis just after the Korean conflict eased up in '52.

[warchild]

Gods, now i know i'm getting old.. Took me about four minutes to catch the double meaning of the first sentence ::LOL::... heh.. its 2AM.. Thats my excuse and i'm sticking to it :P ::LOL::..