Property taxes. Time to do battle.

[Navy Chief]

My county's property tax appraiser really hiked my taxes last year. That in itself was enough to upset me, but the property values in my area have plummeted, so I am going to do battle with these bozos. I'm in the process of getting my own appraisal, and then on June 1st, I'll meet with the county tax office to contest THEIR appraisal. If it isn't the Feds, it's the state, or the county with their hands out.

GRrrrrrrrr............

Taxes=Legalized theft

NC

[Roadburner440]

Unfortunately NC this is what has driven me to never buy a house.. that along with the Home Owners Associations... Me and my father in law have minor disagreements about my view points on this all time. I just believe that renting an apartment is about the same thing as "owning" a home. You never really own the home, you are always at the mercy of the county/state for whatever taxes they feel like charging you. My mom inherited her home in Erie County in NY when my great grandmother died so the house was paid off.. but every 6 months in that county you are charged property taxes.. Just kept raising it till she couldn't afford it anymore. I mean I am all up for paying my fair share of the taxes.. I just believe that EVERYONE should have to pay either a flat tax or such, and abolish all of these conditional taxes (as I like to call them)... I just think it is a bunch of bull that you can buy a home for one price, but they can charge you whatever you want when they want for taxes on YOUR property, and then you cannot even do what you want with it because you are at their mercy. I hope your battle goes well in reducing your taxes, but in other areas where this has been done the countries have just voted in takes hikes (ala California) to make up for the shortfall... So in the end I think if to many people in your area do it the end result will be the same anyway..

[Allen]

Good luck geting there THEIR appraiser out there. With property values plummeted counties are going to give you a bunch of crap what they can't come out for the next 2 years....

[n4gix]

I know the feeling well. The property taxes in Lake County, Indiana are now not only more than my yearly mortgage payment, they are actually more than half my yearly gross income!

What's even worse is this rotten fact. My property is in an ancient section of North Hammond, back when lots were narrow and deep (50' x 200')...

...should anything ever destroy this house (fire, earthquake, etc.), current zoning laws would prohibit any new construction (minimum lot width is now 75'), so I asked at the property tax office what the true value of the land would then be...

All I got in return were blank looks...

Item 1: this house was build in 1913

Item 2: the house is all wood, and has at least one time in the past had a termite problem

Item 3: three independent appraisals have been done over the past three years, with all of them within the ballpark of $35k for house and land

Item 4: current Lake County assement has set the value at $87k for taxing purposes

Item 5: even the note holder has recogonized the futility of continuing, as they've petitioned the court to withdraw their foreclosure action

Item 6: after a ten year contest of conflicting laws, the Probate Court won't give me title to the property my late brother left me in his Will, the note holder won't allow me to assume the mortgage, and the lien is now so far underwater that it's long past the salvageble point

Consequently, I'm slowly selling off as much as I can of the accumulation of three households, packing up what I plan to keep, and looking for a place to move where the rent is affordable. Lake County can have it! I'm done...

[LonelyplanetXO]

If it's any consolation guys, we have our share of property issues here in New Zealand too. We dont have property tax - yet - but it's coming. What we have is compound mortgages, the opposite of your fee-simple ones which mean you pay mostly the interest first. For example, Ive paid about $NZ70k over the last 3 years - principle has dropped $NZ6k. Also when we went through our property slide a year or two ago, local council thought that must be a good time to introduce a new rates calculation system, my rates doubled... One thing's for sure, the rich get richer. Still, can't begrudge them since they have problems too. Jet fuel prices have gone up making it that much more costly to run their Gulfstreams and the slide of the NZ and AU $ means new Mercedes are a premuim price - I've heard some are even keeping their cars for up to a year!

LPXO

Oh, there's one other factor worth mentioning. Here we have a unique problem that's rapidly becoming an epidemic. Due to a combination of circumstances, houses built between about 1980 and 2002 or thereabouts were made using and Australian cladding system, many with untreated timber framing. The system works well in Oz because it's an ancient and stable land with a dry climate. Here tho, the same construction cracks as the land moves. Water penetrates the cracked cladding and the walls and framing rot. It's called leaky building syndrome and if you own one, repairs can cost up to the contruction price of the house. And a recent govt reports indicates between 90-100% of plaster clad structures are leaking or will leak in the next 10 years. It's a national disaster. I was lucky when shopping for my first home. My brother was a QS and warned me to stay well away from anything clad, stick to brick & tile or weatherboard. Whew!

[Navy Chief]

I've got a private appraiser coming here tomorrow morning. If, as I suspect, this appraisal comes back less than the county's assessment, then perhaps it will provide me some "ammunition" when my dispute is reviewed. But I am not naive enough to believe it will be that easy.

But if I am denied a reduction, it IS a guarantee I will do a lengthy letter to the Editor of the local paper. I will make as many other folks in my county as possible - aware of the problem.

NC

[cheezyflier]

Consequently, I'm slowly selling off as much as I can of the accumulation of three households, packing up what I plan to keep, and looking for a place to move where the rent is affordable. Lake County can have it! I'm done...

hire some crackheads to torch it. then you can collect on the insurance before they throw you out.:applause:

[Roadburner440]

I know exactly where you are coming from N4. My father in law has a similar situation in Port Royal, South Carolina. The city council there has mandated that if the houses get wiped out, or destroyed for any reason you cannot rebuild the house on the same spot. On top of having to tear the foundation up, and place it closer to the road their new house has to be built to the exact plans the city wants using the materials they want, etc... To me all that is rediculous. On top of that if the insurance doesn't pay you enough money to do this, and you can't afford to rebuild the way the city wants then they just take your land from you. He goes to the regular city council meetings with a bunch of other people there to try and get stuff like this repealed, but of course with no sucess. All that "betterment of the community junk." I will laugh when these counties, and HOA's push everyone out of owning homes and then their communities will go to crap anyway. Is already starting to happen now due to the foreclosure crisis and a lot of them are just jacking the due's up on the remaining home owners. At some point the cash cow runs out/people have enough and they will be left with a bunch of empty run down homes. I hope your private appraisal goes well NC. The best thing you can do is get the local media involved/inform other home owners of the situation. The key thing is getting enough people together to get it changed.

[Willy]

My father in law just went through the re-appraisal and won. When they first told him what their appraisal was, he asked them when they were going to give him that much for it. He made enough of a stink about it that they backed up and changed it back to what it was.

[tonybones2112]

My county's property tax appraiser really hiked my taxes last year. That in itself was enough to upset me, but the property values in my area have plummeted, so I am going to do battle with these bozos. I'm in the process of getting my own appraisal, and then on June 1st, I'll meet with the county tax office to contest THEIR appraisal. If it isn't the Feds, it's the state, or the county with their hands out.

GRrrrrrrrr............

Taxes=Legalized theft

NC


Why stop at property taxes? We all best get out this november and send the present regime' back to the collective farm it came from.

Bones

[Navy Chief]

Why stop at property taxes? We all best get out this november and send the present regime' back to the collective farm it came from.

Bones

Oh, I will be one of the first in line at my local voting place to do exactly that...........

NC

[TeaSea]

Before this thread get's shut down I will make two observations from my long history of paying taxes and owning a little property:

1) Roadburner...your father is right, you are wrong, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may not agree with this now, but you will later. Buy a house. Property taxes are an irritant. You are correct, if you have no property, you won't pay taxes on it. But just think about what I said..."you have no property"....Associations fees are the same...view them like a tax (which is really what they are) and get over it.

2) NC, it has been my experience that if you take the time to do exactly what you are doing, you will see a reduction in your property tax. Assuming of course that the assessed value is less than what the tax assessment is. Usually, the tax assessment is far less than the actual value...however, based on the last 3 years, that is probably not the case.

[Ken Stallings]

Before this thread get's shut down I will make two observations from my long history of paying taxes and owning a little property:

1) Roadburner...your father is right, you are wrong, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may not agree with this now, but you will later. Buy a house. Property taxes are an irritant. You are correct, if you have no property, you won't pay taxes on it. But just think about what I said..."you have no property"....Associations fees are the same...view them like a tax (which is really what they are) and get over it.

2) NC, it has been my experience that if you take the time to do exactly what you are doing, you will see a reduction in your property tax. Assuming of course that the assessed value is less than what the tax assessment is. Usually, the tax assessment is far less than the actual value...however, based on the last 3 years, that is probably not the case.

Very true words written here!

I own two real estate properties -- one I rent in Douglasville, Georgia and the other I currently live in here in Portales, NM. I haven't spent a single day regretting keeping that property in Georgia.

Even with the real estate bust that house still pays for itself and then some through the aggregate rental income it generates. Even the expenses mostly pay for themselves through the tax deductions I can claim.

Yes, some years have been a loss. But, that's only in terms of the accounts receivable. When one factors in the increase in actual real market value, it hasn't been even close -- it's a clear winner.

Plus, in not too many years down the road, it shall be paid for and I'll have a nice place to retire to with my wife should I decide to leave Portales and live again on the western side of Atlanta. Or if not that, then at least a place to spend a spring or summer watching baseball and enjoying the blooming dogwoods of that area!

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

I don't think taxes are legalized theft. I do lament the new reality that so many really don't pay them in the US. I firmly believe all citizens should finance their government if even a small amount. That, at least, promotes citizenship because all adults have a financial stake (as shareholder's point of view) in how their vote affects public policy.

Cheers,

Ken

[Navy Chief]

I don't think taxes are legalized theft. I do lament the new reality that so many really don't pay them in the US. I firmly believe all citizens should finance their government if even a small amount. That, at least, promotes citizenship because all adults have a financial stake (as shareholder's point of view) in how their vote affects public policy.

Cheers,

Ken

Ken,

I agree with you that all citizens should contribute, but what irks me is that such a small percentage of wage earners in this country pay the largest percentage of taxes, and the burden is being increased. I pay quarterly; have for many years. The rates are too high, when you take into account Federal, State, County, etc.... It is never ending. And when I hear some stupid politician propose a new tax of "just a few cents".........well, it all adds up!!! And when's the last time you heard of a tax being repealed?

NC

[yank51]

I don't think taxes are legalized theft. I do lament the new reality that so many really don't pay them in the US. I firmly believe all citizens should finance their government if even a small amount. That, at least, promotes citizenship because all adults have a financial stake (as shareholder's point of view) in how their vote affects public policy.

Cheers,

Ken

I agree with you Ken on this one. Without local taxes, how would you have fire and/or police protection? Chances are, like me, NC is in a rural area and he has a volunteer fire department. All I can say is, I hope you are not standing there wondering where your fire department is while you property goes up in smoke, and there wasn't enough funding to cover the cost of a good fire response. Also, most think that they can keep a fire at bay until help arrives, but generally your electricity goes out fairly quickly, and with that, your ability to pump water from your well (assuming, of course, like me, you are rural enough not to have city water... Which you need local taxes for to pay for your water supply...) Vicious circle, eh?? ALL states are hurting now for funding, due to a decrease in consurer spending across the board. Not just because of people out of work, but also becasue people are actually saving more now than ever before. The last figure I heard was around 5% being saved, where in the past, the American consumer spent 5-10% more than they made. That's a drastic change, and goes a long way to explain where all the money has gone. Think of where your state will be if you suddenly cut taxes.... What do you want to do without? Some don't care about education, as they don't have school aged children at home anymore. Some don't care about the Arts. It just goes on and on. What services would YOU like to do without if a tax cut was enacted? Take away the money, and services have to go with it. Less Government? I'm all for it, BUT, I'd like not to see anymore services cut, so there is the dilemma, at least for me.... Just my .02 cents....

[GT182]

Roadburner440 , whether you realise it or not, YOU are paying the taxes on the house or apartment you're renting from the owner. Taxes are included in the cost to YOU. You're better off by far to own a home, only for the reason that if you want to move you can sell it for a profit. If you move out of a rental... you have nothing to show for it.... just rent receipts that don't mean a thing exceprt you paid someone else all that money you could have put into YOUR own home.

I felt as you did years ago. Best thing I ever did was buy that first home up North in NY, and that was on a Land Contract. Far better than going thru a bank... if the one you buy from is honest and will allow you a little slack if you fall on hard times. But then some states doen't recognise Land Contracts.... like Delaware. :frown:

[Roadburner440]

I know I am paying taxes through renting. I guess I came across wrong in this. It is not that I mind paying taxes. Believe me I pay everything bill wise and tax wise that I owe to the government. I realize this is how schools/police/fire/road construction/light poles and everything are paid for. I realize I probably pay more in the apartment due to the fact that it is a commercial property and they probably charge them more for the unit. My point is this. I own my apartment about as much as I would own a house. I pay $904 a month for it, as opposed to over $1200+ for a house. Now as far as the house goes, on top of that you have the property taxes. Which can be raised/lowered however the state pleases. At least with my lease I am guaranteed a set rent for X many years. Now with the house you are guaranteed X payment for X years (unless you have an ARM, which is rediculous), but at any point the county can come and assess you. Not to mention the HOA can raise your fee's at any time as well to cover for lack of other people paying (this has been documented in quite a few cases), and in the case of you breaking any of their minor rules have you evicted from your property while still having to pay the mortgage/HOA fees/property upkeep. I personally think that instead of all of this non-sense there should just be one flat tax/VAT/or whatever of 20% or so and that way no matter whether people live in apartments/houses/tents it is all spread equally. Then that would make me more interested in buying a house. I just feel that home and property owners get treated extremely unfairly. Not to mention all these sue happy people in this country. I mean granted I don't know all the intricacies of how all this stuff works, and I am sure some of you have been around all this a lot longer than I have. So maybe you guys are right and I am just ignorant. To me the financial end of it just doesn't make sense though. Especially how used a house is worth more than it cost brand new. I have never understood that. Would be like me asking more for my car than I paid for it brand new... That is just my .02 tho. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I am anti-tax. I am far from it. So I apolgize in that respect.

[TeaSea]

Roadburner,

Please don't mistake my previous comments....I didn't mean to imply you were ignorant. You clearly are not...just the fact that you've spent some time considering this tells me that.:salute:

What you have expressed is a fairly common belief amongst many people. However, homes ARE going to generally appreciate over time, as does most Real Estate. You do have bumps in that trend, and you do have some specific areas where values will plummet , but in general values will increase (yes, even in this bear housing market, properties will eventually recover and increase in value).

That's why I say you're making a mistake in not buying a house. Look at it this way, all the money you pay as rent is gone....that's it. Money paying a mortgage may actually increase in value. You pay taxes on both. Your landlord IS NOT paying taxes on your apartment. He is passing that cost straight onto you. So, you're paying his taxes, and you're not getting the tax benefit at the other side....he is.

I'm not down on apartments either. Clearly there are situations when that makes the most sense, but if you can purchase a home, you will be far better off financially in the end than in renting. That's one of the reasons why home ownership in the U.S. has always been a key indicator for economic health.

[Toastmaker]

FLAT TAX. . .

It's fair, simple to understand and easy to administer, so, naturally, we'll never have it !!

[TeaSea]

Well Toast....

Flat tax on what?

Income, property, economic transactions, resource utilization, federal, state, city, county, parrish, roads, waterways, air, trains, regressive, progressive.....????

Easy to say, but the devil is in the details.

[Ken Stallings]

FLAT TAX. . .

It's fair, simple to understand and easy to administer, so, naturally, we'll never have it !!

The more time goes by, and worse the differentiation of our society advances between those who finance our government vice those who merely derive financial largess from it, the more I am convinced this is not only beneficial, but essential for our national harmony and survival!

Ken

[Roadburner440]

Well when I say flat tax I mean flat tax on total income. To me it makes no sense to charge a sales tax, property tax, etc.. or for this purpose we will call them "consumption taxes." Ultimately I would prefer to just be flat taxed up front on my whole income, and then not have to worry about it after that. The way the system is structured now with the progressive taxation, and punitive taxes on things like cigarette's and such just make no sense to me. Comes down to basically everyone needing skin in the game instead of just charging the top earners, smokers, businesses, etc. I can see what you are saying though that if we just created a "flat tax" it could be expanded without some very careful wording. Kind of the problem we have now with the second amendment, and the constitution itself. That "social welfare" clause has come to mean a whole bunch of things I don't think it was ever meant to be. Teasea I can understand after going back and reading my own posts it was one of those moments where I let the politics of it all blind me.. I follow this stuff practically on a daily basis, and it is of grave concearn to me. I make a lot of decisions based on it.. I just really hope stuff turns around. I mean I really am not mad at the people that voted our current administration into office. I am glad people finally have started exercising their right to vote.

[cheezyflier]

better to have a flat tax on goods and services instead of income. that way taxes paid are proportional to what you spend, not what you make. that way, even the welfare cases give money back. on top of that, no more worries about filing a return, or inheriting, or cashing in retirement money. you spend $$ you pay taxes.
if you arfe a heavy consumer, you pay more taxes. if you don't buy as much, you don't pay as much.

[Cratermaker]

I agree with the flat tax on goods and services instead of income. Easier to tax illegal activity (criminals still have to spend the money they earned). It will promote savings instead of consumption.

[TeaSea]

Flat Tax sounds simple, which is why it's appealing.....but before you go down that road consider (and I apologize if I sound preachy....it's not my intent):



Most taxes we pay in the U.S. are local in the form of sales or property (state income taxes do not provide the bulk of state revenues). Those are actually the most important to us, since it's through those that our local governments provide the bulk of the services we receive.
Taxes are not used simply to raise revenue. They are used to influence behavior (always have been, always will be). Our current tax code in the U.S. tends to reward excess consumption. That may be a bad, thing, may not be....
Our various levels of government have welded themselves to certain taxes. In the great tobacco settlement, we actually created a system in which it's in state government interest for tobacco to continue to be used. That's significant amounts of cash. Now, exactly how large was that flat tax percentage you were thinking of?
Taxes always operate under the law of unintended consequences. Any Flat tax will operate under that law as well. You just don't know what those unintended consequences are yet...but they're there...waiting for you. People will always change their behavior to accommodate a tax.
Governments will simply change the verbiage. For instance, the EPA cannot levy taxes, but it can determine environmental impact fees. If you want to build here in my state of Florida, you will pay an impact fee because of your activities impact on the gopher tortoise population (my gopher tortoise is living in a burrow under my house, so he seems to be doing quite well...but I paid for him nonetheless). This fee is a tax, pure and simple. It did not go through any legislative process, but was decided by an unelected, unnamed, unaccountable lawyer in EPA.
The power to tax is the power to govern. One of the issues we have is that if you create one single flat tax on income.....what happens to our republican form of government? Are you willing to toss that away because you can't figure out how to prepare a tax return? Do you want more unelected, unnamed, unaccountable lawyers?
Tax Returns FORCE people to review what they are paying. That's why Americans are so sensitive to taxes where many Europeans are not (please much respected EURO-members, I'm not being critical here -- it's just an observation). A European style VAT tax system hides much of the tax so that the taxpayer doesn't see it. In the U.S. you see those taxes because you must prepare a return. Naturally, governments like VAT type taxing....they don't have to pay for it politically. To prove my point....how many of you know what you're paying in tax on a gallon of gas in the U.S.? It's one of the few commodities we purchase here that operates under a VAT (unless you research about 6 web sites, your answer will be wrong).
Those who avoid taxes now, will avoid taxes under a new system. If you're willing to operate outside the legal bounds, you will continue to do so. Mr. Cratermaker's observation is interesting, but my own opinion is that under a flat tax system, criminals will be able to continue to operate freely. Incidentally, I think that to be the case under ANY tax system. So, not unique to a flat tax option.

On that point I will halt, but I will make a prediction. We are going to see the "Flat Tax" idea move towards a "VAT" discussion (see cheezy's comment). If the President wins re-election in 2012, that will be the major policy fight of his second administration. Please, this is not a political discussion, it is just an observation on what I think he will feel he must do to ensure the legacy of the recently passed health care legislation.

[TeaSea]

BTW Ken,

AVGAS is actually cheaper in VAT than regular auto fuel. Imagine that!

It's $.54/gal on 100LL here in Hillsborough County, Florida.

Before you guys run out and convert your Detroit V-6 to run on AVGAS....my local airport has it a $4.66/gal.

[Cratermaker]

Well Teasea, I see your point about people not realizing how much taxes they actually do wind up paying with a VAT because people aren't very vocal when the local sales tax goes up.

However, I still think that taxing goods and services increases the taxation of criminal wrong doings. It's easy to play hide the money with instantaneous world wide wire transfers, not so much with goods and services (of course there will always be a way to circumvent the system, you just have to make things more difficult!)

No easy answers, but the complicated mess we have now has to go.

[Toastmaker]

Well Toast....

Flat tax on what?

Income, property, economic transactions, resource utilization, federal, state, city, county, parrish, roads, waterways, air, trains, regressive, progressive.....????

Easy to say, but the devil is in the details.


Quite right - there's lot's of devils in all those details ! I was speaking specifically of converting the currently disproportionate, cumbersome, confusing and unfair federal income tax system for both individual and corporate taxpayers. I was not including local property taxes, user taxes disguised as "fees" or state income taxes (which would probably convert also).

An initial rate of 14% would allow us to pay off the national debt within 4-5 years, and the rate can then be reduced to 11% across the board. Obviously, this is the short version - "details" are plentiful !!

[cheezyflier]

definitely i meant INSTEAD OF any sort of income tax. i am curious to hear possible scenarios where people could avoid paying the taxes if done this way. not that i doubt those ways exist, i just don't see them. i could see maybe a farmer getting by without paying taxes on food because he grew it and did't purchase it. however, he still pays taxes on items used to grow the food, like pesticides, deisel fuel, fertilizer, tools, etc.
maybe the guy who owns a junkyard gets free car parts or something, but i don't see them as avoiding anything significant.

[tigisfat]

This is a great thread, and I'm glad so many here are educated about the topic and have good points to bring up.

If I may:

We got away with rediculous and absurd spending in the US for a long time. We literally need to chop our government spending and general governmental size by about 50-60 percent. We have all these patch-up fixes going right now, but it's time for drastic measures. We can no longer afford to have state departments of this, that and the other random thing over staffed with employees that make 60-100k a year to do nothing that requires a specific professional skillset. It hurts, but it's true. Laws have run away from us. I just found out that where I live, carrying spark plugs is a felony offense punishable by 20 years in prison. Gimme a break.


Tigsfat's unpopular US recovery plan! It sounds horrible and ruthless, and will cause some suffering, but it's nothing compared to if we keep pretending like government and civilian money grows on trees.

STEP 1. Force homes reserved by banks onto the market. We are in yet another artificial bubble right now created by hundreds of thousands of homes in caretaker status. Most were foreclosed upon, and the banks are waiting until they are worth more to sell them. If they are forced onto the market, they will cause a crash of home values that will start deflating the dollar and set the right course of actions. We want our homes to be valuable, but they aren't anymore and bubble markets cause huge problems. False and bubble markets are not sustainable.

STEP 2: Cut government spending at the state and municipal level. Don't write IOU checks or start having furlough days, re-evaluate what you actually need and start firing people. A town of 50,000 doesn't need 100 dog catchers that make 50k a year. It doesn't need public works employees that make 80k a year to prune trees from the back of a brand new pickup truck. STOP STIMULUS CONTRACTING!! A 500K dollar contract may only help 20 people, and four of them are rich. I know this for a fact, I manage a construction company now. We don't need to constantly build dog parks for 100's of thousands of dollars a piece in upscale communities. The world is a dog park. Dog's don't care!!

step 3: Rethink what corruption is, and get serious about stopping it. Elected officials have all kinds of sneaky tricks for raising money, and 'changing the color of money'. Any Mayor (and this is currently happening all over) that tells sworn Police Officers to write as many tickets as possible to generate more funds should be prosecuted. That's using the Police against the citizens in a predatory manner. Government funds should be alotted and collected based on need, not the desires of elected officials. That's rampant now. I am not going to pay anyone 100 dollars to get a 'license' to own a dog. (which is what I'm dealing with right now)


Cycles of growth and recession are healthy, if checked. The easiest way to check them is to not let growth get out of control, like we did in the late 90's and early 2,000's. The hiccups of the last few years were exactly that: hiccups that are vital to our long term health and growth. We didn't let them happen, and we may be screwed. You can't fight healthy (small) recessions. If you do, they turn into great depressions.

[Roadburner440]

Behavioral taxation is what I meant by "punitive" taxation. I just call it punitive because I consider them punishment for certain behaviors. IE smoking, drinking is soon to follow suit, along with the sugar tax/soda tax, and many other things on the table. I actually think the VAT debate will come to the table long before the re-election in 2012. I think after they do Cap & Trade and Immigration (conflicting reports about what is coming next, supposidly they are taking the cloak off the Cap & Trade bill on Aprl 26th). I am not suggestiong throwing the currernt progressive tax system out because the tax return is simply to hard to file, and just looking for a way to simply avoid that. My view on it is an attempt to bring everyone to the table instead of robbing from the rich/giving to the poor. Granted I currently am one of these "leeches" on the recieving end, but I would be more than happy to forgo my tax return, and pay taxes if it means my kids will not be burdened under tremendous debt. As far as collecting taxes at the local level it would be the same thing. You would have a % go to the feds, and a % go to the state. I file 2 tax returns now and I wouldn't expect it to be any different under a flat tax system. Still have tax returns, W-2's and such as things would still have to be verified. My plan wouldn't include aboloshing the IRS either, as you do need a way to keep track of all of this stuff. Everyone here has a lot of valid points, and I especially like some of Tig's ideas. At least so far here we can all peacefully disagree and put our views forward. It just will be interesting to see how things go moving forward. I have been gearing up and researching for our upcoming primaries here in FL, and pretty much know where my vote is going in November. Is all I can do and hope enough people think the same. Just have to get enough people out there and may the one with the majority behind them win.

[tonybones2112]

Behavioral taxation is what I meant by "punitive" taxation. I just call it punitive because I consider them punishment for certain behaviors. IE smoking, drinking is soon to follow suit, along with the sugar tax/soda tax, and many other things on the table. I actually think the VAT debate will come to the table long before the re-election in 2012. I think after they do Cap & Trade and Immigration (conflicting reports about what is coming next, supposidly they are taking the cloak off the Cap & Trade bill on Aprl 26th). I am not suggestiong throwing the currernt progressive tax system out because the tax return is simply to hard to file, and just looking for a way to simply avoid that. My view on it is an attempt to bring everyone to the table instead of robbing from the rich/giving to the poor. Granted I currently am one of these "leeches" on the recieving end, but I would be more than happy to forgo my tax return, and pay taxes if it means my kids will not be burdened under tremendous debt. As far as collecting taxes at the local level it would be the same thing. You would have a % go to the feds, and a % go to the state. I file 2 tax returns now and I wouldn't expect it to be any different under a flat tax system. Still have tax returns, W-2's and such as things would still have to be verified. My plan wouldn't include aboloshing the IRS either, as you do need a way to keep track of all of this stuff. Everyone here has a lot of valid points, and I especially like some of Tig's ideas. At least so far here we can all peacefully disagree and put our views forward. It just will be interesting to see how things go moving forward. I have been gearing up and researching for our upcoming primaries here in FL, and pretty much know where my vote is going in November. Is all I can do and hope enough people think the same. Just have to get enough people out there and may the one with the majority behind them win.

As part owner/heir on a small home that was taken from me for no legal reason I have no intention of ever owning any sort of arable/disposable property in this country again. This place is a lie and as soon as I'm able I'm leaving it. I'll be a squatter in mobile home on a state park before I'd ever consider owning property in this trainwreck ever again.

Bones

[cheezyflier]

bottom line is, you got alotta people feedin off the spigot and they ain't about to let go just because some folks are gettin a little annoyed. fact is, there's alot more to it. john q public is, for the most part, busy with other concerns. he's busy bein a consumer. he's busy arguin over fringe issues like whether gays should marry or what the founding fathers really intended with the 1st and 2nd ammendments, climate change, piracy, etc.
meanwhile, most of us have a full belly so were not gonna be all that motivated to take the actions neccessary to create the kind of change we all accept that we really need. that's truth. we can all complain, we can come up with good ideas all day long. but there will be no real change because you cannot make real change from inside the system when the system is rigged. none of you want to what really needs to be done (including me) because that immediately makes you a domestic terrorist a treasonist, and a revolutionary.

[tigisfat]

bottom line is, you got alotta people feedin off the spigot and they ain't about to let go just because some folks are gettin a little annoyed. fact is, there's alot more to it. john q public is, for the most part, busy with other concerns. he's busy bein a consumer. he's busy arguin over fringe issues like whether gays should marry or what the founding fathers really intended with the 1st and 2nd ammendments, climate change, piracy, etc.
meanwhile, most of us have a full belly so were not gonna be all that motivated to take the actions neccessary to create the kind of change we all accept that we really need. that's truth. we can all complain, we can come up with good ideas all day long. but there will be no real change because you cannot make real change from inside the system when the system is rigged. none of you want to what really needs to be done (including me) because that immediately makes you a domestic terrorist a treasonist, and a revolutionary.

I agree with you 1,000 percent. I need to be careful about how I say this so I don't imply that I'll do anything crazy.....here goes......the most patriotic thing a citizen can do is take decisive action against a corrupt or nonfunctioning government. We enjoy relative peace in Western countries (and I hope it continues) but you can't ever assume things will always be great. There could be a civil war in any country, including the US, and people would be split over who the treasonists really are.