Polish government dead in plane crash!!!

[grunau_baby]

Just heard about it on the radio and it left me shocked: great part of polish government died this morning when their aircraft crashed near airport Smolensk! My condolenses to the polish people who lost great part of their political elite! This sure is a trauma for the country and it´´s government!
http://edition.cnn.com/

Regards
Alex

[cheezyflier]

when i first read your post i thought it must be some kind of prank, but sadly, it's totally true. yahoo news says nearly the same thing. my heart goes out to poland.

[Aviator273]

I was shocked, too. Since I grew up in Poland and my family still lives there I'm feeling with all the Polish people. The only thing making me confuse is that the eyewitnesses from Smolensk say something different than the russian gouvernment and their officials. This morning in the news there were statements form the witnesses living nearby the airfield who said that the aircraft was on some kind of holding pattern making some strange noises (probably the engines or the APU) and then exploding ABOVE the ground whereby there was only little fog. But now... just half an hour ago... they don't show this statements but give some complete other ones from the official side instead. Some commitee should have found out that there was actually very dense fog and that there weren't any problems with the aircraft but because of this difficulties with the weather the pilot couldn't land so he made numerous landingattempts which all failed leeding to this crash in the end whith the aricraft exploding on the ground/in the trees (There was even one statement that said that the president was foolish enough to say that he will land wherever he wants to so that the pilot was forced to risk their lifes even after the captain decided to fly to another airport instead due to safety issues.)

So its somehow strange... the russians make an impression of hiding some facts...

[lucas81]

Thank you, Gents,

Indeed, it is one of the biggest tragedy in our history. The President, his wife, many importand members of the parliament and the highest commanders of the army (Land Forces, Special Forces, Air Force, Navy) are dead.
Two hours ago I was in front of the President's Palace to put some flowers and to pray. Thousands of citizens are gathering together. There was a terrible silence around...
While the economical world crysis was not as hard here, as in many other countries, I wonder what will happen now...

[lucas81]

The fact is that Polish Gov. planes shall be changed many years ago. Those are old Tu-154 and Yak-40.
There was a fog over the Smolensk and the pilot tried to land three times, even though the crew was offered to land in Minsk or in Moscow. I don't understand why they decided to land in such difficult conditions. I am also not sure, if there was an ILS on the aerodrome or not.
Another thing are the safety procedures. Why so many imporartand people including the president and six highest army commanders were travelling in one plane ? This is unbelievable. Two years ago there was pretty similar crash, when over ten highest officers of the air force died in the plane crash in bad weather while trying to land...

[6297J]

Senior Figures among the 96 Killed -

National leader:
President Lech Kaczynski and wife Maria

Other politicians:
Wladyslaw Stasiak chief of the president's chancellery
Aleksander Szczyglo chief of the National Security Office
Slawomir Skrzypek National Bank of Poland chairman
Jerzy Szmajdzinski deputy speaker of the lower house
Andrzej Kremer Foreign Ministry's undersecretary of state
Stanislaw Komorowski deputy minister of national defence
Przemyslaw Gosiewski Law and Justice party deputy chair

Military chief:
Franciszek Gagor chief of the General Staff

Cultural figures:
Andrzej Przewoznik head of Poland's Council for the Protection of Struggle and Martyrdom Sites
Tomasz Merta chief historical conservator

Source: TVP1,



Seems insane to have them all in one aircraft but, what a sad day.
My condolences

:poland:

[Cazzie]

It is a trajady that can happen to any country in this day and time, it is a wonder that this sort of accident has not happened before now, an airliner with the top heads-of-state of a nation on board crashing and killing all. It is a nightmare scenerio and now Poland must live that nightmare. I pray for you good people Lucasz, that you find other exceptional people to lead your nation in this tragic moment. If this sort of event were to happen to the US leadership, no doubt there would be some cheering in many corners, but the cheers would not last long. An event of this kind, whether one agrees with their leaders or not, is devastating to a nation and in a country like the US could mean its very toppling.

May God bless Poland and help her in her time of grief and loss.

Caz

[empeck]

They all were going to the place where about 22 thousands of Polish citizens were mass murdered by Soviet NKVD in 1940. It's 70th anniversary. That's why so many Polish government members were on that plane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

It's a sad day...

[TomSteber]

This is so sad. It's hard to wrap my mind around. My thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Poland.
I have a very strong Polish back ground in my family. I just am dumb founded to think of why all those people of importance were on the same plane at the same time.

[Z-claudius24]

Hi,

Very sad

RIP


The fact is that Polish Gov. planes shall be changed many years ago. Those are old Tu-154 and Yak-40.Methink the (age) TU-154 is not directly to blame.
AFAIK the Gvt TU-154 are of the type of refurbished with new (western style) avionics
The TU-154 is a plane from a younger generation than the B737.
With any plane .. landing in very degraded (visibility) wheater on a short runway can lead to tragedy.
The crash occured at the N°4 landing attempt.
Methink also it was spycho pressure on the pilots ...
Of course it's also some precedent similar accidents occured with TU-154 (on go arounds) cause engines problems when TOGA power applied ....
Well ... enquiry will maybe put more lights on .. already one black box recovered.


Two years ago there was pretty similar crash, when over ten highest officers of the air force died in the plane crash in bad weather while trying to land...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20080123-0


The latest news:
http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

[srgalahad]

A few other sources, thanks to the gang at FlightSim.com

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8612825.stm

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6390NQ20100410

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100410-0

My condolences to the families and the nation of Poland

Rob

[TeaSea]

My condolences also the the Poles in the forum. A great tragedy.

I'm sure it will all come out, but the cardinal rule for approaches is no more than 2. If you can't hit it the second time, you go somewhere else.

These things are incredibly draining physically. I would be toast after the second one.

[Krzych61]

Thanks.

[Cloud9Gal]

Very sad news indeed! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sad056.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

My condolences to the families and friends of all the deceased, as well as to the citizens of Poland.

~May they rest in peace~http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/Sad/flower-004.gif (http://freesmileyface.net/Free-Sad-Smileys.html)

[bstolle]

It looks like the pilots were put under severe pressure.
2008 there has been a similar incident but the pilot decided to divert, against the presidents orders.
Kazynski had to travel to Tbilisi by car and accused the pilots of disobeying orders.
I don't know what consequences this had on their careers.
Unfortunately such things happen more often than the public knows, especially in GA :(

[TARPSBird]

My condolences to the people of Poland. A terrible tragedy to suddenly lose so much of the national leadership. I'm sure that others in the Polish government will step up and do their best to keep the country functioning. :unitedstates: :poland:

[tigisfat]

Poland is a great country and (most importantly) has secured it's role in aviation history. I feel horrible about this. We know that Poland is a great and proud country, and they will carry on the best they know how.

[Ken Stallings]

This is terrible and tragic news! However, the Poles are mighty tough, noble, and resourceful people and I know they will recover from this national tragedy soon enough.

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

My condolences also the the Poles in the forum. A great tragedy.

I'm sure it will all come out, but the cardinal rule for approaches is no more than 2. If you can't hit it the second time, you go somewhere else.

These things are incredibly draining physically. I would be toast after the second one.

Indeed true! How I yearn that someone had been there to make a good input and break this accident chain!

Ken

[Bjoern]

I wonder what the cause of the crash was. Trying to land in CAT III conditions with CAT I equipment?

Also, it couldn't have been the airplane alone. According to Wikipedia, the Tu-154 got back from an overhaul fairly recently. And the 154 is a fairly safe aircraft. Most crashes involving a Careless are attributed to pilot error.

[Ken Stallings]

I wonder what the cause of the crash was. Trying to land in CAT III conditions with CAT I equipment?

Also, it couldn't have been the airplane alone. According to Wikipedia, the Tu-154 got back from an overhaul fairly recently. And the 154 is a fairly safe aircraft. Most crashes involving a Careless are attributed to pilot error.

If I had to guess, I would say you are correct!

One of the reasons for the two strike rule is that if you keep trying, there is too much risk to delay going around when you reach minimums without breaking out. Sometimes, the real tragedy is the pilot thinks he sees the runway but with so little time to confirm, ends up selecting what turned out to be a nearby parallel running road or something else.

Your whole military and executive branch of government onboard wanting to attend a nationally important ceremony, and one can only imagine the pressure on the pilot-in-command. But, those rules are there for a monumental reason as there's been far too many tragic outcomes like this one (but not as nationally significant). One of the toughest lessons for a PIC to accept is that the weather or maintenance condition of your aircraft doesn't give one damn about the importance of your mission!

Ken

[Z-claudius24]

Hi,

Some infos about this particular plane:


Aviation expert Mark Miller said allegations that the 26-year-old plane is the cause of the crash are likely unfounded.

The plane that was carrying the Polish president had recently undergone refurbishments, including the addition of "three Rolls Royce engines -- some of the most sophisticated and advanced engines available today," Miller told CTV News Channel Saturday in a telephone interview. "This idea that the plane was unsafe is an unfair characterization." http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100410/tu_154_100410/20100410?hub=World:

I agree and my toughts (pure speculation of course) are (again !) a pilot error or at least a misjudgement.

[Bjoern]

One of the reasons for the two strike rule is that if you keep trying, there is too much risk to delay going around when you reach minimums without breaking out. Sometimes, the real tragedy is the pilot thinks he sees the runway but with so little time to confirm, ends up selecting what turned out to be a nearby parallel running road or something else.

Your whole military and executive branch of government onboard wanting to attend a nationally important ceremony, and one can only imagine the pressure on the pilot-in-command. But, those rules are there for a monumental reason as there's been far too many tragic outcomes like this one (but not as nationally significant). One of the toughest lessons for a PIC to accept is that the weather or maintenance condition of your aircraft doesn't give one damn about the importance of your mission!

Yeah, something along those lines.

Although it would be baffling to see that "Poland One" was lost due to pilot error. I know that even the best of the best can have a bad day, but intentionally landing in adverse conditions despite (apparent) warnings from ATC? Wow...:isadizzy:

[tonybones2112]

My sincerest condolences to the country of Poland and those of Polish extraction with ties to the home country. Military historians mock the Poles defense of their country in 1939 by attacking tanks on horseback with lances. Their should be better historians; the Polish troops darted in and out, causing the tanks in many cases to shoot at each other, and attacked the vision slits of the vehicles, foolishly left open in the heat, and accounted for a fair number of tank personnel as casualties. You make do, and inflict the maximum damage, with what you got, the Poles did this with devastating effect. Like I said, we need better historians and not armchair revisionists who do not have an eye for tactical brilliance.

In our grief and mourning however we should not forget the Russian track record insofar as this sort of national inferiority complex ingrained in them. A whole government is liquidated flying to a memorial of the Russian's liquidation of the Polish officer corps in 1939, and the government is flying in a Russian plane?

Google the names Patrice Lamumba and Dag Hammarskjöl, use the Gestalt method and investigate all the facts surrounding the deaths of these two men, who were not on the Russian's list of favorite people either, and you'll see what really happened to cause this sad and tragic event in present day.

Sorry friends, I smell a rat. "Accident"? Right, my posterior chews bubble gum too.

Tony Bones

[Bjoern]

A whole government is liquidated flying to a memorial of the Russian's liquidation of the Polish officer corps in 1939, and the government is flying in a Russian plane?

Totally not understandable after 50+ years as a soviet satellite state...

People also drive german cars to Holocaust memorials.

[huub vink]

My sympathies to our Polish members. To know the cause is only interesting when you can use it to avoid reoccurring.

I think the event is already sad enough and can really do without any guessing and an other conspiracy theory.

Huub

[Panther_99FS]

My heart goes out to the people of Poland....truly a tragedy of epic proportions :frown:

[tonybones2112]

My sympathies to our Polish members. To know the cause is only interesting when you can use it to avoid reoccurring.

I think the event is already sad enough and can really do without any guessing and an other conspiracy theory.

Huub

I think William Of Occam might take offense, were he here, at his philosophy being called a "conspiracy theory". all life is based on conspiracy and it would be wise for us to abandon Neville Chamberlain's emulation of the ostrich in the face of clear, circumstantial evidence if nothing else based on a proven track record.

These people were murdered.

My desire to emigrate to the planet Mars is not one based on economic factors but because this planet is becoming inhabited by an inordinate number of ostriches and sheep.

Bones

[tigisfat]

I think William Of Occam might take offense, were he here, at his philosophy being called a "conspiracy theory". all life is based on conspiracy and it would be wise for us to abandon Neville Chamberlain's emulation of the ostrich in the face of clear, circumstantial evidence if nothing else based on a proven track record.

These people were murdered.

My desire to emigrate to the planet Mars is not one based on economic factors but because this planet is becoming inhabited by an inordinate number of ostriches and sheep.

Bones

well, it's a little too early for me to buy stock in the conspiracy theories, but come to think of it there were reports of it burning in the air. I assumed it was because fog glows 100's of feet high when aircraft burn in it, this I know from experience. At this point, I wouldn't rule anything out. If you'll remember a long time ago, they claimed that TWA flight 800 was shot down with a missile. That was disproven.

[Ken Stallings]

Sorry, but I cannot accept that -- the claim of murder, that is.

Ken

[Ferry_vO]

Tony, I find this talk of conspiracies and 'murder' highly disrespectful; 96 people perished today in what according to all known facts and witness accounts was a tragic accident.

My condolences go out to their families, the people of Poland and our Polish SOH members.

[Clarke123]

well, it's a little too early for me to buy stock in the conspiracy theories, but come to think of it there were reports of it burning in the air. I assumed it was because fog glows 100's of feet high when aircraft burn in it, this I know from experience. At this point, I wouldn't rule anything out. If you'll remember a long time ago, they claimed that TWA flight 800 was shot down with a missile. That was disproven.
Before someone jumps in with wild shootdown or bomb theories, witnesses saw the aircraft very low on approach banking to the left when the wing struck trees. Fire was seen flashing out of the wing then the plane slammed into the ground and broke up.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

The very man the Poles moan today is responsible for the crash and 130 dead, and not the pilots, I am afraid. That was my suspicion early today, and it has only grown since..and now I am almost certain. I fear this was a completely unnecessary crash, caused by a dictatorial and self sufficient man who was used to be obeyed, and who sacked pilots careers before if they didn't do what they were told.

[grumpos]

The very man the Poles moan today is responsible for the crash and 130 dead, and not the pilots, I am afraid. That was my suspicion early today, and it has only grown since..and now I am almost certain. I fear this was a completely unnecessary crash, caused by a dictatorial and self sufficient man who was used to be obeyed, and who sacked pilots careers before if they didn't do what they were told.

Neither the time nor place for that comment, my friend.

My condolences to all those who have been touched by this tragedy.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

Exactly the time and the place for that comment. Others in this very thread speculate about pilot a error. I speculate about a dictatorial man who obliged pilots to land against their professional judgement. The 4 go arounds (against better knowledge as teasea said), the ignored tower messages - everything speaks for it. And events in the past of this president back it up. Moaning yes, respect yes. But for the right people. That doesnt mean there is an obligation to stop thinking. Looking for the truth is no disrespect of the dead, it's respect for the dead.

[Ken Stallings]

I'm inclined to agree. Something is out of sorts here -- that is for sure. Given the solemn duty of being the PIC flying your nation's most senior leadership implies the highest professional skills. Yet, this accident is even more shocking than the recent Calgon flight that was caused by truly poor pilot decision-making and training.

So, something else had to be at work.

I am not knowlegable sufficiently to declare the history of the passengers of that aircraft. And clearly even if I did it doesn't affect the ramifications of the tragedy. However, if those pilots were literally browbeaten by the passengers to do things they were not otherwise willing to do, then that must be the primary causal factor of the crash. And further, it must therefore become the primary actionable reform made to help prevent it.

I cannot say Nausicaa's comments are accurate, and I'm sure even he would agree that he is not 100% certain either. But, he has strong suspicions and I think his comments deserve some latittude for airing.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Exactly the time and the place for that comment. Others in this very thread speculate about pilot a error. I speculate about a dictatorial man who obliged pilots to land against their professional judgement. The 4 go arounds (against better knowledge as teasea said), the ignored tower messages - everything speaks for it. And events in the past of this president back it up. Moaning yes, respect yes. But for the right people. That doesnt mean there is an obligation to stop thinking. Looking for the truth is no disrespect of the dead, it's respect for the dead.

In addition to my previous comments, I must add as a commercial pilot myself, that ultimately the PIC is personally responsible for the safety of his passengers and has internationally recognized lawful authority to act on his own judgment. So, regardless of the background, if what I think happened here did, in fact, happen, then it must be ruled pilot error.

Respectfully,

Ken

[Wing_Z]

'Tis just tragic news.
How about we don't let the thread spin into the usual speculations - none of us were there, or even know anything at all beyond the news reporting.
And especially let us not hear about how Russian airliners are intrinsically unsafe, especially Russian Polish ones.

[Z-claudius24]

Hi,

My speculations :)

Pilot error or missjudgement caused by pressure of the VIP cause the event waiting to be performed (the memorial)
The captain is the only one to take the decision (with the help of the copilot).. pressure or not .. above him is God.

4 landings attempts ? !!
I name the pilot (s) stuborn unless he don't have any fuel in reserve (fuel starvation) for deroute the plane to a other airport ....

[crashaz]

Condolences to the families AND the Polish people. I am sure the country will overcome this as history has proven that the Polish people are brave and will survive.

Not sure what this may mean for the Eastern European region as Poland is the stalwart there. Eyes need to be focused on that region right now. Poland has been a good ally of the United States...many of us recognize that... even if some here don't.

Once again sincerest condolences on your loss.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I mean no disrespect. I sincerely hope the truth will be revealed - even with a Wladimir Putin as head of the commission...
But it's known Kaczynski had obliged pilots in the past to land against their will - and so they did. I just add one thing to the other. As Ken says I am not 100% certain, but I have suspicions.

I hope the truth - accident or not - comes out eventually.

[lucas81]

Gents,
Once again I would thank you very much for your condolences! It is a great shock for the whole nation. Every single detah would be a huge loss...
As for the crash causes. The Russian and Polish specialists are investigating the cause and we will have to wait for the final opinion. True, the landing procedure was not OK, but I'd wait what the specialists will say. At the moment we need to unite here and forget who is the left or from the right. And this crash can also has a big, positive impact on the Polish-Russian conciliation. Things started to change on the 7th of April, when our prime minister met with mr Putin in, again, Katyn.

[jmig]

I heard about this late last night. My prayers and condolences go out to the people of Poland during this time of grief.

Note to all Posters:
This is not going to become a thread of conspiracy theories and suspected murder. I will delete any posts which advocate blame based on supposition or conspiracy. Let this thread be one of mourning the loss of lives and the grief of Poland.

[wombat666]

My desire to emigrate to the planet Mars is not one based on economic factors but because this planet is becoming inhabited by an inordinate number of ostriches and sheep.

Please don't let us hold you back.

It is a tragedy for an entire nation, with nothing to be gained at this time by pointless speculation.
The truth will come out in the end.
:australia: :poland:

[Ken Stallings]

Well, I guess it has now been confirmed by multiple sources that the pilot attempted a total of four Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP's). That by itself is very bad form, very bad form. The other thing I heard stated is that the best IAP for that particular airport (in terms of lowest allowed ceilings and visibility minimums) was an Airborne Survellience Radar Approach (ASR), possibly precision (PAR).

If that is the case, then when the final approach controllers and/or the approach controllers advised the pilot that the airport was closed due to visibility below minimums, and advised he should divert, then the pilot was procedurally wrong to even start the first approach.

To then attempt a second, again contrary to ATC instructions, was extremely poor judgement.

To then perform a third and fourth was beyond anything I have heard a professional pilot perform before this.

Based upon all this, and upon my personal experience shooting IAP's, one of the principle dangers is trying to cheat on the minimums while the pilot is scanning inside the plane to reference instruments, and outside the plane to try to discern the runway, is you end up hitting some obstruction either by getting too low and/or wandering off course.

Given the known facts (four attempts contrary to ATC instructions), I feel there is very little doubt that for some reason the PIC used extremely poor judgment with horrible and tragic results for an entire nation and world.

One of the saddest aviation disasters in human history, and all so entirely preventable through good pilot judgment.

Ken

[tigisfat]

Well, I guess it has now been confirmed by multiple sources that the pilot attempted a total of four Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP's). That by itself is very bad form, very bad form.


I tend to agree. I think he may have been 'feeling it a little lower' with each approach since the sight picture looked okay every time he went around. Sadly, it's a common thing.


Many aviation organizations (governmental) tend to make their own rules for missions that they deem are of crucial importance. I'd suggest that he may have disregarded minimums because 'he is an experienced pilot who'll be just fine, and the president is on board'. The mission must get accomplished.


Personally, I've always made the conservative choice. Sometimes I can 'monday morning quarterback' myself and realize that I was too conservative, but I'm still alive and haven't wrecked a plane.

My favorite old CFI told me this: If it takes you more than 30 seconds to firmly make a 'go' decision when weighing all factors, that should be the heaviest deciding factor telling you not to go. Things will only change if I'm hauling someone who will die if I don't get there or world peace rests on me dipping below minimums for a quick look.

[Z-claudius24]

Hi,

Some news (read yellow :) ) and seem's the number of approaches was ONE and no more (for obvious reasons)

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

[Ken Stallings]

Things will only change if I'm hauling someone who will die if I don't get there or world peace rests on me dipping below minimums for a quick look.

I have to keep that point in mind on my Grace Flight missions and make sure I don't do things that are stupid in an effort to get the patient to his/hers treatments. That's awful tough when you realize these treatments are keeping them alive. But, treatments can be rescheduled and if you pile drive your aircraft into terrain trying to force an approach, the need for future treatments are alleviated!

The only time in my life in aviation I've ever truly pushed it was during a combat rescue mission the first month of the war in Afghanistan. I knew if we didn't get those guys off that mountain and home, the Taliban would capture them and torture to death those who weren't killed outright in the firefight!

We got them all home safe. We made it back. But there is no doubt we were very fortunate to live through that misison. Whenever I encounter dire circumstances now, I think back on my mental approach that night and make myself back off because nothing will ever be that dire in my life again.

It's a tough situation, especially when your patients are suffering from advanced cancer and you realize those treatments might keep them alive another six months if done on time.

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Hi,

Some news (read yellow :) ) and seem's the number of approaches was ONE and no more (for obvious reasons)

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

I appreciate that link. That's the first news source I have read referencing only one approach attempt. But, it's also the most factually complete news article I have so far read. 400 meters visibility is really low. That's about 1,400 feet, which is less than a quarter statute mile visibility.

As I type this, I just am having heartbreak wondering, "Why oh why didn't someone call 'Knock it off!'"

It wasn't even a close decision.

Ken

[tonybones2112]

Exactly the time and the place for that comment. Others in this very thread speculate about pilot a error. I speculate about a dictatorial man who obliged pilots to land against their professional judgement. The 4 go arounds (against better knowledge as teasea said), the ignored tower messages - everything speaks for it. And events in the past of this president back it up. Moaning yes, respect yes. But for the right people. That doesnt mean there is an obligation to stop thinking. Looking for the truth is no disrespect of the dead, it's respect for the dead.

The reason Ronnie Van Zandt and several members of the rock group Lynyrd Skynyrd died in their plane in 1977 was Ronnie Van Zandt. He was told quite explicitly by the pilots they were low on fuel and needed to stop and refuel, he, in a drunken rage, refused. I knew someone who survived that crash(now deceased) and am informed of all the details of that event.

I second that statement on truth. It's no disrespect to the 29 miners killed in W. Virginia to hang the owner of the mine for knowingly running it when it was unsafe. It's a duty and an obligation to insist on a full investigation and full disclosure of the facts surrounding this horrible "accident" in Russia so that they don't happen again. Otherwise the spirit of the Warren "Commission" lives on worldwide. Yeah, I'm a born dissenter. We dissenters and hardcases are pulled off the shelf to fight the wars when some multinational business's interests are threatened and then put back on the shelf and told to shut up. I'd say by that blood we have the right to speak out. I'm neither Polish nor of Polish extraction yet I beleive the Polish people deserve an explanation as we do on who killed JFK. The Poles have been the brunt of jokes for decades as boobs; you only need to go up aginst a Pole in combat to put paid, as our Brit friends say, to that myth. I have Polish friends and their view is the same as mine: send in the NTSB and FAA.

Bones

[wombat666]

I have Polish friends and their view is the same as mine: send in the NTSB and FAA.
Bones

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.
:173go1:

[Bjoern]

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.
:173go1:

The NTSB has a lot more experience and, to be fair, polish aircraft don't fall from the skies very often.
Having one or another "bigger" investigation bureau lend a hand isn't that improbable.

[wombat666]

The NTSB has a lot more experience and, to be fair, polish aircraft don't fall from the skies very often.
Having one or another "bigger" investigation bureau lend a hand isn't that improbable.

I certainly agree re the experience of the NTSB, but the inference made that the NTSB and the FAA 'MUST' step in is premature.
Only if invited is standard procedure unless it is an American built aircraft, American citizens involved or an American operated aircraft.
Until such assistance is requested the 'Conspiracy Nuts' will just have to wait and conspire.

[Ken Stallings]

I certainly agree re the experience of the NTSB, but the inference made that the NTSB and the FAA 'MUST' step in is premature.
Only if invited is standard procedure unless it is an American built aircraft, American citizens involved or an American operated aircraft.
Until such assistance is requested the 'Conspiracy Nuts' will just have to wait and conspire.

No question, the NTSB has no necessity to get involved. Poland and Russia have enough expertise to conduct a proper investigation.

Ken

[tonybones2112]

Why?
Not their jurisdiction for starters, not a US built aircraft either, and unless requested to assist, none of their business.
Poland is quite capable of making suitable decisions without supervision.
:173go1:

Wombat, in WW2 we had 5 brothers in the US Navy, the Sullivans, on one ship. It was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. War is hell, everyone involved were just doing their duty. All 5 brothers died, wiping out the dreams of one family.

Why was the, as is reported, the "entire" Polish govt. on one plane, and one reputed to be "old" and "obsolete"?

Why? I guess because more than one person besides myself shares a knowledge of past behavior and a track record by a certain govt. Many many people besides myself smells a rat. I have as many Russian friends as I do anything else, my comments are not derogating a people or a nation. The motive, unknown at the moment, that's for people more politically active to discern. Any US technician is there to look for empiric evidence, turn it over to the governing organs, and let them decide.

Most of the world know nothing of the names I cite but should be remembered: Patrice Lammumba, Dag Hammerskjold, Lev Rebet, and Stepan Bandera, and I hope that the names of those who died in this tragedy are not added to the list.

Bones

[tonybones2112]

I'll take being a conspiracy "nut" over being an ostrich any day of the week.

Bones

[Piglet]

Deleted for inappropriate comment.

[6297J]

Deleted for inappropriate comment.

[Piglet]

Deleted because it is a follow up to the two posts above.

None the the three posts were construstive to the thread and violated the rule I stated earlier:

Note to all Posters:
This is not going to become a thread of conspiracy theories and suspected murder. I will delete any posts which advocate blame based on supposition or conspiracy. Let this thread be one of mourning the loss of lives and the grief of Poland.

[wombat666]

Wombat, in WW2 we had 5 brothers in the US Navy, the Sullivans, on one ship. It was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. War is hell, everyone involved were just doing their duty. All 5 brothers died, wiping out the dreams of one family.

Why was the, as is reported, the "entire" Polish govt. on one plane, and one reputed to be "old" and "obsolete"?

Why? I guess because more than one person besides myself shares a knowledge of past behavior and a track record by a certain govt. Many many people besides myself smells a rat. I have as many Russian friends as I do anything else, my comments are not derogating a people or a nation. The motive, unknown at the moment, that's for people more politically active to discern. Any US technician is there to look for empiric evidence, turn it over to the governing organs, and let them decide.

Most of the world know nothing of the names I cite but should be remembered: Patrice Lammumba, Dag Hammerskjold, Lev Rebet, and Stepan Bandera, and I hope that the names of those who died in this tragedy are not added to the list.

Bones



The Sullivan brothers were serving aboard the USS Juneau, CL52.
IIRC the Juneau was hit by a 'Long Lance' torpedo launched from a Japanese DD during the 'Naval Battle of Guadalcanal' in mid November 1942, forcing her to withdraw. Later that day, she was hit by a submarine launched torpedo and sunk.

Patrice Lumumba was the first elected Prime Minister of the newly independent Republic of the Congo. He was executed early in 1961, allegedly by a Katangan death squad with the tacit approval of Belgian and US operatives.

Dag Hammarskjöld, UN Secretary General, died as a result of an 'unexplained' air crash while en route to the Congo over Northern Rhodesia in late 1961.

Lev Rebet was (briefly) the President of the Republic of the Ukraine until arrested by the Gestapo and held for 3 years in Auschwitz.
Rebet was assassinated late 1957 in Munich by a KGB operative.

Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian nationalist, anti Polish terrorist, an anti-Semite (Bandera harmed or helped Jews depending on 'circumstances') and NAZI collaborator.
Bandera died in October 1959, poisoned by a KGB operative in Munich, allegedly on the orders of Alexander Shelepin and Nikita Krushchev.

Some of us 'ignorant unwashed ostriches ' know more about history than you give us credit for.
:173go1:

[Stirlitz]

Ken or anyone with real flying experience,
What is the visibility in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP2WZT_Deyo

[Ken Stallings]

Ken or anyone with real flying experience,
What is the visibility in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP2WZT_Deyo

I would estimate about 200-300 foot ceiling with visibility of about one half to three quarters statute mile visibility below the ceiling.

In short, near minimums for most ILS approaches.

The pilot in that video did an excellent job.

If you notice concurrent with solid visual contact with the runway approach lights, the radar altimeter alert sounded. Likely it was set to match the AGL minimum on ceilings. Further, when the runway VASI (the four lights in a line to the left of the runway) showed him above glideslope, which meant he was safe for the approach.

To me, that looked like a safe, well flown instrument approach.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Wombat, in WW2 we had 5 brothers in the US Navy, the Sullivans, on one ship. It was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. War is hell, everyone involved were just doing their duty. All 5 brothers died, wiping out the dreams of one family.

Why was the, as is reported, the "entire" Polish govt. on one plane, and one reputed to be "old" and "obsolete"?

Why? I guess because more than one person besides myself shares a knowledge of past behavior and a track record by a certain govt. Many many people besides myself smells a rat. I have as many Russian friends as I do anything else, my comments are not derogating a people or a nation. The motive, unknown at the moment, that's for people more politically active to discern. Any US technician is there to look for empiric evidence, turn it over to the governing organs, and let them decide.

Most of the world know nothing of the names I cite but should be remembered: Patrice Lammumba, Dag Hammerskjold, Lev Rebet, and Stepan Bandera, and I hope that the names of those who died in this tragedy are not added to the list.

Bones



I find this post out of line.

To use the example of the Sullivan brothers to frame a comparison to show conspiracy is simply unacceptable to me.

I would ask that we leave the honorable legacy of the Sullivans totally out of any conspiracy theorizing.

And for the record, I reject your efforts to make a conspiracy argument regarding this aviation mishap.

Ken

[Clarke123]

I find this post out of line.

To use the example of the Sullivan brothers to frame a comparison to show conspiracy is simply unacceptable to me.

I would ask that we leave the honorable legacy of the Sullivans totally out of any conspiracy theorizing.

And for the record, I reject your efforts to make a conspiracy argument regarding this aviation mishap.

Ken
He only wants attention. Ignore him and he will get bored googling irrelevant facts.

[Devildog73]

My condolences to the Polish people as well. My home State of Illinois has a large Polish population. Our State Army National Guard has a partnership with the Polish Army to help them professionalize their NCO Corps on the US model instead of the Russian model. Illinois has had several exchanges of NCOs over the past few years.

I truly hope and pray that Poland comes out of the other side of this stronger and an even better government emerges for the people of Poland.

[TARPSBird]

Chicago claims to have the largest Polish population outside of Poland. :) Devildog and I and others in our age group probably recall school classmates whose parents or grandparents were immigrants from Poland. Always a treat to be invited for lunch or supper at their houses. :d Poles are great folks whether they live in Chicago or Warsaw, and I hope they get through this crisis OK.