P and F designations for US fighters; question...

[Lionheart]

Hey all,

In WWII, most fighters had a P designation for US planes; P-40, P-38, P-51, etc. Now, here in the future, its F- designations; F-16, F-15, etc.

Will this change again? Does it have a significant meaning? Why change it from P to F?


It struck me and made me a bit curious about why this is...



Bill

[Skittles]

Hey all,

In WWII, most fighters had a P designation for US planes; P-40, P-38, P-51, etc. Now, here in the future, its F- designations; F-16, F-15, etc.

Will this change again? Does it have a significant meaning? Why change it from P to F?


It struck me and made me a bit curious about why this is...



Bill

Aircraft designations have changed post-WW2. I think they were revised sometime in the 60's.

In modern terms, 'F' is the designation for a fighter whereas 'P' is the designation for a maritime patrol aircraft.

In WW2 terms, 'P' was the designation for a fighter and 'F' was the term for photo reconaissance.

Would you like to guess what 'B' stands for? :jump:

'AT' stood for advanced trainer (e.g. the Cessna AT-17, or the Curtiss AT-9);
'X' meant experimental (e.g. XA-32)
'A' meant attack and light bombing (e.g. AD-1 Skyraider).
'PT' = Primary trainer
'C' = Cargo/transport
'O' = Observation
'OA' = Amphibian
'R' = Rotary

That's all I can think of for now.

Edit again: This is for air force aircraft - the navy ones are a little different!

I've still got no idea why the F series, e.g. the F4F, F5F etc is named as they are.

[jmig]

"P" stood for Pursuit. "F" is of course for fighter.

I think they changed it with the introduction of the jet fighters. F-80, F84, F-86, etc.

[Reddog]

(I've still got no idea why the F series, e.g. the F4F, F5F etc is named as they are. )
Only the Marines/Navy did it like this. Airforce the would have been called F-(a number)
F4F Wildcat
F=Fighter
4= 4th design
F=Grumman

F4U Corsair
F=Fighter
4=4th design
U=Sikorsky

PBY catalina
P=Patrol
B=bomber
Y=Consolidated

[Skittles]

(I've still got no idea why the F series, e.g. the F4F, F5F etc is named as they are. )
Only the Marines/Navy did it like this. Airforce the would have been called F-(a number)
F4F Wildcat
F=Fighter
4= 4th design
F=Grumman

F4U Corsair
F=Fighter
4=4th design
U=Sikorsky

PBY catalina
P=Patrol
B=bomber
Y=Consolidated

Or course, I'm forgetting that the Navy has different designations. I don't know many of them. However if it HAD been an air force plane, it would have been the P4F, given that in the air force they used 'P' for pursuit (fighter) roles.

[Brian_Gladden]

When the USAF split away from the Army after WWII, they streamlined the designation system for their aircraft.

P became F. It wasn't just for the jet's as the F-80 started life as the P-80 and in Korea, there were F-51 Mustangs running around.

In the 60's, Sec-Def McNamara "standardized" the aircraft designations across all the services. Hence the AD-5 Skyraider became the A-1, F8U Crusaders became simply F-8's etc.


Brian

[Bomber_12th]

Yep, 1947 was the year that the USAF started, and with it, so did the designation of Pursuit plane change to Fighter - P to F. They also did away with the "Attack" plane designation at this time (the A-26 became the B-26, since the Martin B-26 was no longer in use).

Some other letter designations for Navy planes, off the top of my mind:

J - North American - as in PBJ
M - Martin - as in PBM
Y - Consolidated - as in PBY
U - Chance Vought - as in F4U
C - Curtiss - as in SB2C
D - Douglas - as in SBD

[dswo]

"P" stood for Pursuit.

Cf. Jagdflugzeug, where Jagd = chase.

[cheezyflier]

where's helldiver? i bet he knows

[warchild]

yeahhh, the P is for pursuit.. The first fighter that i know of designated as an air force fighter was the F-51. Naturally the navy had its own nomenclatures which used th fighter designation, but it took the army a while to catch up..

[Pips]

Each U.S. Navy (USN) aircraft was assigned a unique designation that identified it's intended purpose, model, series and possible special modifications. The coding system, which was introduced on 10 March 1923, remained in effect until 18 September 1962 when it was changed to the tri-service system based on the system used by the U.S. Air Force.
Designations are:

A; Ambulance (1943-1946) eg Piper AE-1 Cub
B: Bomber (1931-1946) eg Douglas BD-1 Havoc
BT: Bomber-torpedo (1942-1946) eg Douglas BT2D-1 Destroyer II
F: Fighter (1922-1962) eg Grumman F4F Wildcat
G: Transport, single-engine (1939-1946) eg Beech GB-1 Traveller
H: Hospital (1929-1943; to A in 1943) eg Piper HE-1
HJ: Helicopter, Utility (1944-1949) eg Sikorsky XHJS-1
HN: Helicopter, Training (1944-1948) eg Sikorsky HNS-1 Hoverfly
HO: Helicopter, Observation (1944-1962) eg Sikorsky HOS-1 Hoverfly
HR: Helicopter, Transport (1944-1962) eg Sikorsky HRS-1
J: General Utility (1931-1946) eg Grumman JF-1 Duck
JR: Utility Transport (1935-1946) eg Beech JRB-3 Expeditor
LB: Glider, Bomb-Carrying (1941-1945) eg Piper LBP-1
LN: Glider, Training (1941-1945) eg Pratt-Reid LNE-1
LR: Glider, Transport (1941-1945) eg Waco LRW-1 Haig
N: Trainer (1922-1946) eg Stearman N2S-4 Kaydet
O: Observation (1922-1962) eg Stinson OY-1 Sentinel
OS: Observation Scout (1935-1945) eg Vought OS2U-3 Kingfisher
P: Patrol (1922-1962) eg Lockheed PV-2C Ventura
PB: Patrol Bomber (1935-1946) eg Martin PBM-3D Mariner
R: Transport (1931-1962) eg Douglas R4D-5 Skytrain
S: Scout (1922-1946) eg Curtiss SC-2 Seahawk
SB: Scout Bomber (1934-1946) eg Douglas SBD-5 Dauntless
SN: Scout Trainer (1939-1946) eg North American SNJ-3C Texan
SO: Scout Observation (1934-1946) eg Curtiss SOC-3A Seagull
TB: Torpedo Bomber (1936-1946) eg Grumman TBF-1C Avenger
TD: Target Drone (1942-1946) eg Culver TDC-1 Cadet
TS: Torpedo Scout (1943) eg Grumman TSF-1

With the US Air Force the designation "P" was a leftover from the Great War, when fighters of both the French Aviation Militaire and the burgeoning United States Air Service (USAS) were labelled "Pursuit". The British labelled their fighters "Scouts".

The Unites States Naval Air Service (USNAS) didn't operate fighters in that period, but did operate "Patrol" aircraft, hence when they finally aquired fighters they couldn't use the initial "P" as it was already in use. So they went straight to the logical term, being "F".

[Dino Cattaneo]

As for 1962 "Tri-Service Designation System":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_United_States_Tri-Service_aircraft_designation_system

And, another interesting wikipedia page (US military aircraft sorted by designation):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_the_United_States

Now, the X-35 became the F-35 (screwing the whole system by skipping several designation numbers)... just a marketing move or an evidence that it may well be the last manned fighter (hence no need of more F's)...

[Lateral-G]

Just to confuse things even more the USAF chose F-111 and F-117 which are NOT fighters at all but bombers/attack aircraft.

Folks would see the F-117 and say "oooh! A stealth fighter!" But in truth it never was a fighter. It had no provisions to ever be a fighter. The same was true of the Aardvark.

The Air Force stuck on the preceding "1" to indicate it's attack/bomber status. But they kept the F. Why? Probably because fighter is more sexy and has the ability to get more funding $$$.

So here we have the F-35 which by USAF convention really should be a F-135 because it's not intended to be a fighter but a bomber/attack aircraft.

But then they can't use 135 because it's already taken and people would possibly confuse it with a KC-135. Then someone might think they somehow converted a 4 engine transport into a fighter.:icon_eek:

-G-

[SkippyBing]

Just to confuse things even more the USAF chose F-111 and F-117 which are NOT fighters at all but bombers/attack aircraft.


F-111 was a continuation of the century series designations with Phantom originally being F-110 and F-107 through 109 being aborted programs. The F-117 designation was chosen partly to conceal the program but I remember an article from decades back that pointed out it's the next logical number if you include the various teen series fighters and secret programs in the numbering sequence.
Sticking a 1 on the beginning doesn't actually indicate attack/bomber status it's just using the pre-McNamara numbering system in the same way they never changed the designation for the F-104.

Full details http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/index.html

[DennyA]

The F-111 had a little bit of fighterness... The USAF versions originally had an internal cannon (though this was deleted in the 80's). And the RAAF versions carry Sidewinders for self-defense.

Plus the F-111B was actually supposed to be a fighter, with Phoenix missiles and Sidewinders. But it stunk, so the F-14 evolved instead.

The F-117, though? Completely defenseless, unless you wanted to laser-guide a bomb into a hovering helicopter. (I think it was the A-10 that did that, if I remember right.) The F-117 should have had an A designation, not F. But in the USAF, everyone wants to fly fighters. (I'm surprised they didn't call the C-17 the FC-17. :)

[Piglet]

The REAL reason the newly-founded USAF went to the F designation was to purge it's old Army Air Corps origions, So out went the P designation (among other changes).
Or so I'm told...:wavey:

[tigisfat]

There is an oxygen bottle at Dyess that still says US Army Air Corps. Yes, it is still there and no, I'm not kidding.

[Ken Stallings]

Hey all,

In WWII, most fighters had a P designation for US planes; P-40, P-38, P-51, etc. Now, here in the future, its F- designations; F-16, F-15, etc.

Will this change again? Does it have a significant meaning? Why change it from P to F?


It struck me and made me a bit curious about why this is...



Bill

Doubtful.

The P designation was a direct result of the USAAF fixation on the bomber. Everything was about bombers, and the only reason the pre-war USAAF brass thought fighters were necessary is to intercept bombers -- hence calling them pursuit aircraft.

You either attacked with bombers or pursued and destroyed the enemy's bombers. By the USAAF leadership's view, there simply were no other important uses for aviation!

Of course that was all a bunch of rubbish. Chennault tried to tell them that. They drummed him out of the service very rudely for his troubles. He then went to China and formed the most successful P-40 unit in the war!

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

The REAL reason the newly-founded USAF went to the F designation was to purge it's old Army Air Corps origions, So out went the P designation (among other changes).
Or so I'm told...:wavey:

Had more to do with the understanding based upon World War II that air superiority was essential. Therefore, since you fight for air superiority, it made sense that the aircraft designated for that mission be called fighters.

Cheers,

Ken