Question from rookie to experienced airport designers

[Dimus]

I have nevere ever before been involved in altering anything in FSX. However I was always disappointed by the fact that my home field Tatoi AB (LGTT) was so poorly depicted in FSX and no scenery existing for it like there was in FS9 by HST. So I recently discovered ADE and started messing with it. First of all I decided to move it to its correct location and then correct the taxiways and add all the missing objects and buildings. I have high hopes with this and intend in adding also some GA traffic, the way I know it. This is for my personal use at first but if I test it and am happy with it I intend to of course share it, and may be then do other GA airfields that I'm familiar with in Greece like Megara and Ikaros or the island airports.

I am learning as I go but there are two things that I have not found how to do yet:

1. I can not get rid of the original background texture that still remains at the wrong airport location (see below on the left side):

2. I do not know how to move the airport NDB at the correct location (which is the circular brown spot at the right side of the picture)

Your help would be much appreciated. Cheers!

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-0423-30-47-40.jpg

[falcon409]

. . . . .I am learning as I go but there are two things that I have not found how to do yet:

1. I can not get rid of the original background texture that still remains at the wrong airport location (see below on the left side):
I don't use ADE, only SBuilderX (personal preference), but it will require that you do an "exclude airport boundary" poly. Someone versed in ADE can tell you how.


2. I do not know how to move the airport NDB at the correct location (which is the circular brown spot at the right side of the picture)
Your help would be much appreciated. Cheers!
You should be able to change that within the airport properties or one of the options within ADE, again, I can't tell you how as I use AFX for all AFCAD work.

Neither problem is a big one, but it will take someone using ADE to explain exactly how. Good luck!!

[NoNewMessages]

1. To remove the existing airport flatten use the green polygon tool to make a rectangle that "intersects" with the existing area. Once you double-click to finish the polygon the Properties box will appear and you select Exclude General | Airport Backgrounds.

2. Make sure that the display setting in ADE is set to EXTREMELY DENSE and then under View, select Navaids. There will be a scenery object for the NDB and a red cirular area that symbolizes the NDB's location. Move to your desired location.

Note: When you compile there will be two, maybe three files, depending if you chose to seperate scenery objects from the airport file, like I do. There will be a file prefixed cvx_, that is the ground based file that needs to be in the proper location. But it looks like you have already figured that out.

[Dimus]

Thanks guys!

I managed to get rid of the old airport pad but apparently, according to ADE manual, stock NDBs can not be moved. It is still within the airport boundary so it is not that bad.

Thanks again!

[falcon409]

What about excluding the NDB? If it can't be moved, can you exclude it or delete it and then add a new one with the correct location?

[NoNewMessages]

IIRC, ADE won't allow a stock navaid to be removed. I'm a few versions behind the current one. But the scenery object can be moved.

[Matt Wynn]

Yay! Tatoi! if you're focusing there my friend i'll take a look at Aktion AB...

[Dimus]

Exclusion of the NDB did not work. A new NDB created in ADE can of course be moved around.

If you guys know another software or method to do this I'd be happy to follow. Otherwise the NDB will stay where it is and it will be about 500m off.

Smoothie, Aktion would be great. Although Tatoi is an air force base and home of the Hellenic air force academy as you know, it is host for three aero clubs and we are grateful to the air force for this. They also offer us their ATC services for free in the afternoons and during the weekends when we are allowed to fly. I will try to depict it the best way I can using stock objects. I am now working on the area around the Athens aero club on the north side which I know very well.

[Matt Wynn]

be good to have a proper T-41 mescalero, minus spinner in a fancy grey/silver and day-glo orange finish for touring Greece, but we can't have it all... :icon_lol: looking forwards to LGTT.

[ananda]

The default AFD is about 5000ft west of its true position.

To remove the default airport background, create an exclusion polygon

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2794/tatoiade.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/i/tatoiade.jpg/)

You cannot move the NDB but you can add an NDB model in its corect position.

[NoNewMessages]

Exclusion of the NDB did not work. A new NDB created in ADE can of course be moved around.

Just to be sure, we're referring to the scenery object, not the actual nav aid. The scenery object is a little yellow box. Just click on it to highlight it and then slide it where you want it to be. ADE handles the mechanics in a "different, but effective" manner that I won't go into details about, as I'm only on my second cup of coffee...

[falcon409]

The default AFD is about 5000ft west of its true position. To remove the default airport background, create an exclusion polygon.
ananda, he accomplished that already, check about 8 posts up!!:salute:

[Dimus]

I just added an NDB object at the correct location but left the actual Navaid where it as as I can not move it.

amanda, that image is interesting. It must be old as it still shows the dirt runway. This is no longer in use and has been "grassed" over.

Thank you all for your help! I have done the basics and I am now searching through the objects to enhance the environment. I'll show some images when I get closer to finishing it.

I will try to include all the landmarks that we use as aids during the pattern flying and approaches. I also intend to work on the surrounding landclass as much as I can.

[Matt Wynn]

Change of Plan Dimus, i'll give you a clue where i'm looking.... "Αρχάγγελος" is your clue, easy guess huh? lets see if any others can figure it out, :salute:

[Dimus]

Great! I'm not allowed to land my Cessna there but will be great for the Rollus M-2000!!!:jump:

[Matt Wynn]

yeah it's a heck of a place, a few i have looked at include my old home.... Larissa, Aktion AB (Preveza) and even some of the small Ultralight/Microlight strips...

[Dimus]

OK I just realised that the FSX objects library does not cover me well regarding static planes. Do you know where I may find descent low poly models of GA aircraft, namely C152, C172, C182, Piper Cherokee, Piper Saratoga, Piper Seneca, Trinidad or other similar. The south area of the apron also has a lot of static historic aircraft that would be nice to have like a C-47 (already found this one), HU-16 Albatross (I know I'll never find this one), F-5A, F-102, F-86 and others. The HAF also operates PZL M18 Dromaders from Tatoi. Any kind of crop duster aircraft with cranked wings would simulate those well.

I also remember in the past in this forum some kind of 3d high grass that could be put on the sides of taxiways that looked awesome. Any clues if this is available and where?

My apologies for asking too much. You guys have been very helpful so far :salute: and I am getting addicted to this.

Edit:

I just found kjb's fantastic library of GA static aircraft. This will cover my GA needs 100%. What a great job!. Thank you sir!:salute:

[falcon409]

Yea, kjb's static library is awesome, I've not seen the exact fighters you're looking for, but do s search in flightsim.com for "Guy Diotte". There are 4 pages of low poly aircraft he designed as library objects, you might find something there that will work.

[Dimus]

That was a good lead Falcon, I got some that will do well, and also picked up some building models while I was at it. Thanks!

Any idea on that long blade grass object?

[Matt Wynn]

well Tanagra AB has started getting a facelift.... was up all night working on it's layout.... now gotta add buildings etc... back in... always fun. how're you getting on Dimus? where next after Tatoi ? Elefsis? home to the P-3's and CL-415's? or you could go the other way and look at what was once called LGAT.... why i like Scenery if you don't like it change it :icon_lol:

EDIT: Heres an image of 1 nights work, still gotta add an exclusion poly then it's onto really detailling the place...

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/IRIS-Matt/fsx2010-04-0614-34-04-31.jpg

[falcon409]

That was a good lead Falcon, I got some that will do well, and also picked up some building models while I was at it. Thanks!
Any idea on that long blade grass object?
You might PM Michael (MCDesigns), I believe he has what you're looking for.

[Dimus]

You might PM Michael (MCDesigns), I believe he has what you're looking for.

Thanks for that!

[Dimus]

Hey Smoothie!

That looks good! What type of underlying pad texture are you using? I see you have GEX EU installed?

I am done with basic AFCAD design and most of the buildings. I will now have to add static AC and other details and work a bit more on the parking places. I also have to smooth the flatten at the north side to avoid some cliffs that form up as the south end is quite lower than the north end. LGTT is actually a sloped runway but I do not wish to get into that at this time. I also wish to do some landclass editing around the airport to make it look better and perhaps add some landmarks that the GA people are using as reference for pattern flying.

However, I do not have much time at hand and it can still take a few days, maybe next week. Next will be Megara, (LGMG) as we often fly there too. Elefsis (LGEL) is also a good choice as I did my military service there and know the place quite well but it would come third, if I ever do it.

[Matt Wynn]

the underlying pad is a simple polygon, closes grassy match i could find for it's surface was cool low grassland or something like that, lots of aprons still to add along with service roads, Hardened Shelters, Hangars and Trees... it was quite a nightmare getting those Curved Taxiways :icon_lol: my next job is to create the service roads, easilly done in ADE using the Vector Tool, but before any of that.... Aprons... gotta have somewhere to put a whole lot of aircraft should a virtual Archangel Spring up... trying to locate a chart of the airfield so i can see whats what... oh and did anyone else notice the narrow strips sticking out of the 1 end of the runway... thats where the approach indicator lights sit... and they are placed in ADe's runway configuration about right on spot... :jump:

[Dimus]

I'll check my Jeppesen books to see if I have a chart for Tanagra. I'll let you know.

[falcon409]

. . .the underlying pad is a simple polygon, closes grassy match i could find for it's surface was cool low grassland or something like that, . . .
That's a nice match too. Wouldn't it be great if you could blur the edges of a poly. . .:cool:

[Matt Wynn]

ok thanks Dimus, be good to get things as close as possible... then Rollus' Mirage 2000 in Ελληνική Πολεμική Αεροπορία scheme will have a place to call home...

[Matt Wynn]

That's a nice match too. Wouldn't it be great if you could blur the edges of a poly. . .:cool:

oh it would indeed, then again it would be nice if i could use a photoreal base... unfortunately resolution i need is not available... so i took a google earth image, set it as the backdrop, calibrated it and then set to work, default FSX runway doesn't have all the over-run areas and as such wasn't to my liking, going to have to redraw the boundary fence too :jump:

[Dimus]

ok thanks Dimus, be good to get things as close as possible... then Rollus' Mirage 2000 in Ελληνική Πολεμική Αεροπορία scheme will have a place to call home...

Please pm me your email. I happened to have the charts with me at work. Perhaps thay can be of some help to you.

[Matt Wynn]

OK PM headed your way... and many thanks friend, next time i'm in Athens i owe you a drink or two :ernae:

[Dimus]

A few early wip shots of the Aeroclub area:

My usual starting point. The taxiway lines are actually white, I have to check my texture set. Also the clubhouse building is white too but I haven't yet found an object that can come close to it. I'll keep searching:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-0701-45-24-42.jpg

Outside the Athens aeroclub hangar. On the back is the Athens gliding club hangar. Used to do that too twenty years ago. I have to scale down this one as it is actually smaller.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-0701-46-59-62.jpg

Taxiing out from the hangar towards the parking and refuelling areas:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-0701-48-09-71.jpg

The hangar of the Dekelia aeroclub. These guys have helos too. A Robinson is inside. However, this one needs to be smaller too:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-0701-48-28-06.jpg

I am still trying to find the right buildings for the military side of the airfield. The default ones just don't look right. I hope I finish this soon as my wife came looking for me at 2:00 am last night.

[Matt Wynn]

yeah i told my girl that you were working on Tatoi and got "Yes i know where you mean I live near there remember!", then i told her i was working on Tanagra and got "You're a glutton for punishment Matt, both of you are nuts", nice to know we're appreciated by our girls :icon_lol: working today before i have to disappear at 2000GMT due to 'work'.... anyone any ideas how to draw circular hard standings in ADE and get them looking circular and not straight edged in shape...? help would be much appreciated...:salute:

and Dimus, looking great buddy, to place buildings i use Whisplacer, it lets you scale things around.... i would if i had the time today make the buildings in FSDS but i'm on a limited time window today...

[Dimus]

In ADE you can draw a helper shape, in this case a circle with the required diameter and use it as a guide for placing the apron points. (right click on where you want to put it and select "add helper shape"). Then create a circular apron by placing the polygon points on top of the circle. The more points the more circular it will show. You can then delete the circle.

I can scale the objects in ADE too, I just can not edit their colours, I need something else for that I guess.

[Matt Wynn]

yeah i got a copy of FSDS to build scenery years ago, not looked back since... i'm looking at the HACS at LGTG at the moment, determining dimensions, also trying to figure what type of tower it is... obsession? yes it is just a bit... Greece is my Home... i like my home to look nice...

a bit off topic Dimus, anywhere near Athens that hosts some skydiving? and don't suggest with the 'Δυνάμεις Kαταδρομών' :icon_lol: reason i ask is my girl is scared of heights.... so i'm going to take her on a tandem skydive, i know it's nice of me :icon_lol:

EDIT: Dimus if you make a helper shape then right click and hit 'make Apron' it makes that helper shape an apron...

[Dimus]

I am mostly done with this using default FSX objects and scaling them to fit. As said, I am also adding some landclass polygons in the surrounding area to make it look more appropriate. I already made the olympic village that was built for the 2004 olympics. An urban/grid/dry lanclass worked quite well. Also a characteristic landmark north east of the airfield that we use as reference for turning base leg has been added and looks quite realistic. I have also changed my FSX runway and taxiway textures to lighter shades and now the picture resembles more and more real life. I'm really hooked by this. Add to that the fact that I also started repainting the Carenado C152 to make my beloved SX-AKL, in which I soloed, and you can imagine why my family life is in crisis and my sleeping hours drastically reduced.:eek:

Now, with all these done, I can not live with the buildings not being exactly right so I decided to build my own or modify the stock ones. So, what do you guys use to do this? The simplest way would be to be able to repaint the buildings textures as I am more or less happy with the shapes but not the colours. Simple shape building and then texturing would also be nice though.

Thanks again for your support.:jump:

[MCDesigns]

If you can't live with the default buildings, the next step is to take your camera, head out to the airport and start shooting, LOL Then get FSDS or Gmax and give in to the madness of trying to learn one of them (Gmax is my preference, but I've used both). Being able to create your own buildings opens up a whole new era and empowerment in creating scenery.

[Dimus]

I'm very close to doing that Michael. However, I was thinking if it is possible to retexture the default buildings as they are close enough, just the wrong colour.

Btw, I finished the repaint of the 152. I will try it out this evening and if successful I may upload it here.

[Dimus]

A few WIP shots. Lots of work to do yet. I made a try to represent the T-41s of the Air force academy but I chose the C177 static model instead of the 172, mainly due to the fact that the 172 had wheel covers. It does not look right though as the 177 is more streamlined. I will repaint the 172 and try to hide the wheel covers somehow by painting.

Grass courtesy of MCDesigns.:ernae:


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1900-02-39-74.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1823-49-46-81.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1620-23-10-08.jpg

Now if only I could be able to repaint the Club's hangar. This is a default object which had the correct shape but the wrong colour. Any ideas?
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1900-04-12-35.jpg

[peter12213]

A few WIP shots. Lots of work to do yet. I made a try to represent the T-41s of the Air force academy but I chose the C177 static model instead of the 172, mainly due to the fact that the 172 had wheel covers. It does not look right though as the 177 is more streamlined. I will repaint the 172 and try to hide the wheel covers somehow by painting.

Grass courtesy of MCDesigns.:ernae:


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1900-02-39-74.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1823-49-46-81.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1620-23-10-08.jpg

Now if only I could be able to repaint the Club's hangar. This is a default object which had the correct shape but the wrong colour. Any ideas?
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-04-1900-04-12-35.jpg

Wow this is looking very good!

[n4gix]

Wow this is looking very good!

Wow! Please delete the quoted images from your replies before hitting the "SUBMIT" button... :wiggle:

[MCDesigns]

Looking good Dimus!! Glad the grass is working out for you. :ernae:

[Dimus]

Thanks Michael. The grass is really great.

While slewing around last evening I noticed something that just puzzled me at first. Wherever I have used a generic FSX building, it floated about 1 ft above the apron. I checked at the FSdeveloper forum and found out that this is a known issue with generic buildings and there is no solution other than using custom models (go figure). I also read that one can use googlesketch to easily make simple models and then convert them to mdl using Modelconverter X. This might be an easier way than using Gmax but it is all new to me.

The floating buildings is what ticked me off here and I decided to bite the bullet and try my hand at creating custom ones. So this is going to take while I guess...

[Matt Wynn]

it's not too bad Dimus.... buildings are relatively simple compared to Aircraft

and looking very good, can't wait to get flying in and out of LGTT :wiggle::ernae:

[Dimus]

I've made some progress with 3d modelling in google sketchup as well as texturing from photographs. I did the Athens Aeroclub hangar from photos and keep doing stuff. This is so much fun that it seems it will take much longer than planned as now I need to make everything photoreal.:icon_lol:

I must darken the inside texture as it is too bright. Compare this with the photo of the real thing from my other thread http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=34852 :

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0216-57-26-43.jpg

[falcon409]

I'm very close to doing that Michael. However, I was thinking if it is possible to retexture the default buildings as they are close enough, just the wrong color.
In the past, I had that thought as well, only to also realize that if I were to share the scenery with anyone else, every place where that default building showed up in FSX (thousands probably) it would now show the textures I changed it to because the sim would still see it as the default building. Get my drift?

Also, I use default buildings in all of my sceneries and none of them "float". I use Instant Scenery for all object placement and it defaults to ground zero (based on the current terrain) unless I set a different elevation.

Nice job on the scenery by the way. I have looked at sketchup in the past but only briefly. Nice work though!!

[Dimus]

Thanks Falcon!

I have now chosen my way and it will be custom buildings for everything. It is both fun and rewarding. Sketchup is so easy to use and Arno's converters work nicely. The generic buildings sometimes float, sometimes not. It is a known problem already discussed in FSDeveloper forums, I guess you must be lucky or it not so noticeable.

For sketchup check this tutorial, it's what got me going:

http://www.calclassic.com/sketchup_tutorial.htm

Idarkened the inside texture and it looks better. I also made another one for the Dekeleia aeroclub:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0300-07-13-26.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0300-08-17-23.jpg

[Dimus]

I have made the gliding club hangar and the big blue one that I always wonder what is inside. I have to ask some day. Real photos (not by me) included for comparison.

My apologies for showing each and every one of them but this is new to me and I was quite proud of the blue one. I'll repost again when closer to completion. Lots of buildings to do yet, the harder one being the military base command office and the Hellenic Air Force museum hangar. I will also try to add the two static F-104s outside the museum painted as "Tiger" and "Olympos" and whatever else I can find as static aircraft exhibit (already have added two C-47s and 2 F-5As). I promise I will not start modelling aircraft yet.(although I do miss a HU-16... :icon_lol:).

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0323-29-05-55.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/DSCF1599_resize.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0323-23-36-64.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/11107l.jpg

[Dimus]

To Smoothie, or anyone else recognising these birds, you'll be seeing these beauties as statics outside the HAF Museum at my LGTT when it's finished:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0912-43-04-87.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/VDimus/fsx2010-05-0912-44-06-94.jpg

Static models are from Guy Diotte, the repaints "Olympos" and "Tigris" are my adaptations of the FS9 repaints for the Captain Sim F-104 by Ed Knapp and the "Kronos" RF-5 and the "Aegean Blue" F-5 repaints are mine.

Wish I could find static models for F-102, T-37, Albatross and Noratlas to finish the collection that is displayed there but these are all I could find. A C-47 will be added too.