Boeing says I do not qualify to sell a Boeing FS plane!

[Lionheart]

I thought you might all find this interesting.

After 2 weeks of talks with a certain person at Boeing, it was decided that I do not qualify to create/sell Boeing flight sim planes. The cause was stated that I do not have high enough sales figures.

Plane in mind was the prototype Boeing Bird of Prey.


I thought it was amusing.

Do all the guys that have payware Boeings pay royalties and purchase copyright contracts and do they all have company liability insurance? Just curious.



Bill
LHC

[gigabyte]

Bill, that answer from whom ever you were dealing with shows a total lack of understanding of the Flight Sim market for good add on aircraft. It is understandable for a company like Boeing to want to protect their brand, however, to say that any developer - especially one who does the right thing by requesting permission before designing an releasing - is not qualified because they do not have high enough sales is just small minded! I guess Boeing never started from the ground up, they must have appeared out of thin air with proven product and a strong sales history - Yeah right.

I think it is funny (sad really) that so many Corporate Bureaucrats are so intent on protecting the "brand" that they will refuse to allow their company name or product to be used for something like a Flight Sim model. Let's face it how many people would base any type of purchasing decision (from buying a aircraft to a seat on a flight) on what they seen in FSX. Let's get real even if a potential customer customer purchased a terrible FSX model or paint of an aircraft from a payware designer, how could that reflect on the real "Brand"? We all know in the scope of market share how ever one would define it, the total number of Flight Sim users that could even see an add on model or paint compared to the total market is so small it could not likely be calculated.

In a situation like this you would have been better off to go ahead on your own and design and release an excellent model like we all know it would have been and not opened the can of worms. It's really too bad I am sure it would have been a great deal of fun to have a Lionheart Creations Bird of Prey.

[cheezyflier]

just because boeing says you can't make theirs, doesn't mean you couldn't make one by a fictional manufacturer.
i'm curious if they've given you minimum numbers that you would need to hit in order to qualify?

[huub vink]

As I don't know the American legal (copyright) system, I won't comment the legal aspects However I'm surprised to read that Boeing doesn't look at quality, but makes the decision on sales......

Independent of sales numbers and quality I thought that every company would be happy with some free advertising of their name.

Cheers,
Huub

[MudMarine]

Bottom line is they want money....period. Just more proof to me that the world has truely gone insane!!

[jmig]

Is this a commercial airplane or military? I thought that they can't stop you from modeling a military airplane because it is considered public domain?

[dominique]

A painter/texturer nightmare :jump:

The Bird of Prey is designed to prevent shadows and is believed to have been used to test active camouflage which would involve its surfaces changing color or luminosity to match the surroundings says Wikipedia

[6297J]

Make a Vulcan one instead!

[Tim-HH]

However I'm surprised to read that Boeing doesn't look at quality, but makes the decision on sales......

That would also explain why this awful addon (just take a look at the VC (http://www.abacuspub.com/b787/b787_10.jpg) :kilroy:) is an "Officially Licensed Product": Fly the Boeing 787 Dreamliner (http://www.abacuspub.com/catalog/s658frame.htm) :rolleyes:

Greetings
Tim

[Ken Stallings]

Biill,

I think Boeing is making a dumb decision.

If you ever want to work with Lockheed Martin, let me know. I'm not saying I'm a big cog in the company, but I am in the company! :engel016:

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Bill, that answer from whom ever you were dealing with shows a total lack of understanding of the Flight Sim market for good add on aircraft. It is understandable for a company like Boeing to want to protect their brand, however, to say that any developer - especially one who does the right thing by requesting permission before designing an releasing - is not qualified because they do not have high enough sales is just small minded! I guess Boeing never started from the ground up, they must have appeared out of thin air with proven product and a strong sales history - Yeah right.

I think it is funny (sad really) that so many Corporate Bureaucrats are so intent on protecting the "brand" that they will refuse to allow their company name or product to be used for something like a Flight Sim model. Let's face it how many people would base any type of purchasing decision (from buying a aircraft to a seat on a flight) on what they seen in FSX. Let's get real even if a potential customer customer purchased a terrible FSX model or paint of an aircraft from a payware designer, how could that reflect on the real "Brand"? We all know in the scope of market share how ever one would define it, the total number of Flight Sim users that could even see an add on model or paint compared to the total market is so small it could not likely be calculated.

In a situation like this you would have been better off to go ahead on your own and design and release an excellent model like we all know it would have been and not opened the can of worms. It's really too bad I am sure it would have been a great deal of fun to have a Lionheart Creations Bird of Prey.

You make wise points, but you might be surprised mildly to learn that I know of at least two people whom I have encouraged to get their pilot's certificates and based upon flying certain aircraft in virtual realm, decided to go out and fly that aircraft in the real world to validate a purchase decision they made on the real aircraft!

So, I agree in the sense of these multi-million dollar military aircraft. But, when it comes to the GA flavor, Flight Sim X can actually be a smart inroad into new markets.

Cheers,

Ken

[tigisfat]

Is this a commercial airplane or military? I thought that they can't stop you from modeling a military airplane because it is considered public domain?



This was a military technology demonstrator. I'd make it anyway, and I'd never have asked. It should've bene relatively simple to model, it had mostly off the shelf parts and a generic rendition of the default hornet gauges would've done just fine.

[Lionheart]

It 'is' totally legal to produce a plane (even a real one) that is of a similar (identical) shape so long as you do not use the companies name or logos 'if' the aircraft is out of production and is no longer produced, (manufactured).

So... With that, I 'could' in theory, produce the plane.

I would hate to do that. I think Boeing deserves credit (especially their team) for such a wild design.

Why why why does this kind of stuff have to happen. Just really gets to me.

Go to be nice, go through their processes, and this is how you are treated.. Arent big enough, dont sell enough, there is the door.. We'll contact you.. dont call us.




Bill

[Penzoil3]

It's a loss for Boeing, and for the flight sim community. They obvously don't care about quality!
Sue

[N2056]

While I applaud you for trying to do the "right thing" I cannot help but think that if you had just gone & made the plane nothing would have ever happened.

Sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask permission ;)

[HouseHobbit]

This is Crazy..
These fools have Only hurt themself's by their actions..
Boeing needs to get a grip..And not be so upset over all of this..

BRAVO to you on your efforts, to me all you did was make them Look better by your efforts and work.
if they can't see this them they are all fools, and there is NO dealing with fools..
Common Sense is a Uncommon thing it does seem..

[Lionheart]

While I applaud you for trying to do the "right thing" I cannot help but think that if you had just gone & made the plane nothing would have ever happened.

Sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask permission ;)


This can be true.




HouseHobbit
This is Crazy..
These fools have Only hurt themself's by their actions..
Boeing needs to get a grip..And not be so upset over all of this..

BRAVO to you on your efforts, to me all you did was make them Look better by your efforts and work.
if they can't see this them they are all fools, and there is NO dealing with fools..
Common Sense is a Uncommon thing it does seem..

HH, take a deep breath...

Dont let things get to you Sir. Things have a tendency to work themselves out.

I could be doing some of my own designs on the side. I might then be able to sell one to one of the big manfacturers and make some good money.

Im not worried about it. Though it kind of freaks me out that this happened. My thoughts are, what if the big wigs at Boeing find out about this? Would they feel the same way we feel? They might then see that there is an issue in the department that handles things like Flight Sim entertainment which is a form of media advertising. Perhaps its the Advertising department and the USAF I should go to for permissions. Who knows.. In all reality, its just FS.

Bill

[gecko65]

Bill, this doesn't make much sense to me (ok, so nothing new there) but the fact that you are a small fish, so to speak, should make no difference. The company should pull their collective heads out of their butts and be flattered that you would want to create one of their products.

Boeing has enough $$$ that I would think it wouldn't matter one way or another who's making/selling their fs planes. If you made a profit on your work, it wouldn't be a blip on the radar to their bottom line, especially if you have don't high enough sales figures. Then I'd say make all the planes you want, as it would have no effect on Boeing's profit margin

Propriatarianism gone mad - Sheesh!

[pilottj]

I wonder if A2A had to go through that bit while building their B-17 with Boeing. The bird of prey would certianly be an intersting sim bird, especially for this trekkie with an Andorian avatar :)

I hope it all works out Bill, if it doesn't work, I hope you conisder revisiting the Golden Age era racing planes. Supermarines, Curtiss, Macchis...etc. You already touched on it with your Bughatti racer. Imagine the fun of showing up at the local bush flying club lake in your Supermarine S6B :D


3311

Cheers
TJ

[Bjoern]

That would also explain why this awful addon (just take a look at the VC (http://www.abacuspub.com/b787/b787_10.jpg) :kilroy:) is an "Officially Licensed Product": Fly the Boeing 787 Dreamliner (http://www.abacuspub.com/catalog/s658frame.htm) :rolleyes:

Would make for adequate freeware...


And speaking of...does Boeing also forbid making freeware models of their planes?

[Lionheart]

does Boeing also forbid making freeware models of their planes?


I doubt it.



Bill

[Blackbird686]

Ok then... so if Boeing won't let Bill create and market a "flight sim model" of the "Preditor", I wonder if IRIS Simulations, AlphaSim, Commercial Level Simulations, Wilco Publications... etc, all have experienced the same feedback from other Real World Aircraft Manufacturers?

I have seen alot of "freeware" Boeing models, mostly from "Project Open Sky", however.

BB686:USA-flag:

[Francois]

Do all the guys that have payware Boeings pay royalties and purchase copyright contracts and do they all have company liability insurance? Just curious.



Bill
LHC


I doubt that very much, knowing that most 'companies' are one-man bands and often working on the side of other things.

I, for one, will not even bother to ask anymore.... (yes, i tried a few times myself).

I also have a very pronounced opinion on large corporations, having been in the top of a few of them, and not agreeing with their 'big wigs' and 'marketing guys'. :wavey:

[Lionheart]

I have been blessed Francois. I have been not only given special permission in some cases, but even sent drawings to make the planes from. They saw the really good potentials from the advertising of their products, and I in turn put in direct links to their company sites for customers to follow.

I had hoped this would have worked for Epic. Kodiak (Quest Aircraft) were able to use the addon for their own uses, which was great for them as well.

Lanceair was a different story, lol.. eeks.. (remembers the commercial; 'wooots in yer wallet!?' )

[Lionheart]

Ken,

The more I think on it, the more I am toying with doing a concept fighter of my own design... I sure miss doing my own work.


Bill

[Bjoern]

I doubt it.

Woohoo! 732, here I come...someday! :icon_lol:

[Lionheart]

A little 'sketching'...

:d

[gecko65]

If you make it, they will come . . .

[warchild]

Biill,

I think Boeing is making a dumb decision.

If you ever want to work with Lockheed Martin, let me know. I'm not saying I'm a big cog in the company, but I am in the company! :engel016:

Ken

at least Lockheed didnt lose their cajones after the SST wars..

[Ken Stallings]

Though I totally disagree with Boeing's decision because I find it shortsighted, I must also disagree with some of the view expressed here.

The key issue is does Boeing have a right to refuse to let others profit in any way off their designs?

The answer must remain yes.

The issue of freeware has absolutely no relationship. This is about a for-profit business which is inspired by the work of another for-profit business to market a virtual copy. Now, if you created something, you have a right to say no. It matters not what you and I think. It matters what the company who created the product thinks.

In this nation, that's freedom.

Bill understands this as well as anyone because he relies upon that freedom to create as he desires. No one can stop him from original thought and original creations. The law also protects his creations from unauthorized use. Boeing is merely exercising the same right which Bill holds vital to his operation. Take that right away from him and it might change his entire willingness to work so hard and well as he does. Further, that right doesn't get abridged merely due to the size and profit of the company in question. It it did, then someone poorer or smaller than Bill could claim he owes them a favorable decision.

That's the way it works, folks. And frankly, there is no other honorable way it can work.

Ken

[Astoroth]

Ken,

The more I think on it, the more I am toying with doing a concept fighter of my own design... I sure miss doing my own work.


Bill

We miss you doing your own work too, Bill. I think I must have every one of your early prototype aircraft, and sci fi stuff. Still fly the heck out of some of them.

[TeaSea]

I must agree with Ken, but Bill, I'd ask you to go back and try talking to Boeing through their Publicity and advertising folks.

Often one side of an organization has a different view of the other. I would view any model as part of a Boeing advertising campaign. If you'e already been talking to them, then work it from another angle.

Your view of the world is often shaped by where you're sitting at the time.


Ken, I got my Instrument Rating last month......

[Tracon]

I bought a glass coffee mug from the Boeing store once; it was a waste of money.