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Bjoern
March 18th, 2010, 16:01
As some of you might know I'm working on a Dornier 328, because it's the aircraft-gone love of my life.

I've spent three years of on-off modeling on this thing, but this week I've done nothing else than working on it (seriously. No uni, just 3DS Max, eating sleeping and smoking - talk about dedication).

These screenshots may seem unimpressive because of the lack of texture quality and too much focused on the landing gear, but this has a reason: The entire landing gear (and pax door railing) is skinned mesh, which is (to my knowledge) generally mostly used on pilot figures or moving flags in the MSFS community.
Well, I wanted to take this one step further. During development, in 3DS Max, I only had to move one handle and the rest of the landing gear followed suit. Pretty awesome, huh?

Ironically, the skinned mesh produced the only road bump and head scratcher so far. Apparently, FSX doesn't like IK solver handles but I found an awesomely working workaround.

Anyways, enough blabbering, more pictures (see attachment).

If the windows were transparent, they would reveal a 3D interior.

The model has come along a bit since then, mostly in terms of animations. Spoilers, roll spoilers, elevators, ailerons, trim tabs.

To do: Landing gear and wheel animations, prop animations and lights (attach points). And of course the textures.

Once I have a representative model out I'll make it public. Please note that this project will always remain a WIP. Usable, but never complete.



Edit:

- Anyone asking for a release date will be captured and tortured.

- A completely new FDE is highly unlikely. So if an expert in that field can live off a "Thank You very much" and a mention in the readme, please go ahead. :)

- There *will* be a VC.

- There *will* be a -300 (jet) version.

N2056
March 18th, 2010, 16:10
Congrats on getting it into FSX! :guinness:
While I have not used bones for normal animation (yet), I have seen it done by others. Your gear is looking good! :salute:

Bjoern
March 18th, 2010, 16:15
While I have not used bones for normal animation (yet), I have seen it done by others. Your gear is looking good! :salute:

Thanks Bob!

I suspect A2A using a whole bone yard (lol) in their new B-17 with all those crew animations.
Maybe I can pull something similar off...hm...animated co-pilots, passengers and a FA...dang, too many ideas, too little time. :icon_lol:

N2056
March 18th, 2010, 16:27
Ahh...but that is a big part of the fun. Take an idea and see if you can make it work! :d

Bjoern
March 18th, 2010, 16:28
Ahh...but that is a big part of the fun. Take an idea and see if you can make it work! :d

Yeah, and it worked out really well so far. Gotta love those bones! :d


- Edit: They *do* up the polycount a bit though. :P

MCDesigns
March 18th, 2010, 16:59
congrats on the breakthru and the project. It's always rewarding when something you are trying to figure out works!
I have always thought of and used bones only for organic mesh, such as people and such, never thought to use it on parts, hmmmmmmm

Bjoern
March 18th, 2010, 17:09
I have always thought of and used bones only for organic mesh, such as people and such, never thought to use it on parts, hmmmmmmm

Really?

It was the first thing that came to my mind when designing a battle plan for the animations since bones basically turn your mesh into solid parts and, when rigged appropriately via hierarchy, make your element nearly behave like the real deal.

txnetcop
March 18th, 2010, 17:35
Hey Bjoern you should have seen what my adventure into GMAX was like. Amigo that looks pretty darn good to me! Congrats
Ted
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jmig
March 18th, 2010, 17:52
Way to goooo! I admire anyone who is willing to take the plunge into developing aircraft. Good Luck on your project.

Lewis-A2A
March 18th, 2010, 18:02
Looking Great matey :ernae:

Bjoern
March 18th, 2010, 20:28
Thanks guys!



Hey Bjoern you should have seen what my adventure into GMAX was like.
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Let me guess: Some desperate fiddling around, loss of motivation and throwing it all away. :d

I somehow know that experience, but this project is a huge motivational magnet for me. I think the fact that the first pictures of it on FFDS are dated 03/2008 speaks for itself.
The endless delay of Eaglesoft's 328JET is also quite helpful (*Cough*). No temptations around. :icon_lol:


- Edit: It's amazing hof far I've come...

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/Misc/328_complete_render.jpg

txnetcop
March 18th, 2010, 20:30
Let's say the project was beyond recognition and rescue! LOL
Ted
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tigisfat
March 18th, 2010, 20:39
Congratulations! Your accomplishment deserves the utmost respect.

mfitch
March 18th, 2010, 20:41
Your project sounds like fun. I also played with bones to animate the arrestor cables on the carrier. Unlike your great work, the animation is barely visible (who is looking for little details the moment after stopping).

grunau_baby
March 18th, 2010, 21:56
Congrats, looking great so far!:ernae:


- Anyone asking for a release date will be captured and tortured.
When will it be released? (I am waiting impatiently...:a1089: ;o)))))

Alex

Roger
March 19th, 2010, 00:00
Well done Bjoern:ernae:

Mathias
March 19th, 2010, 01:09
Yes, well done so far, Björn!

On the subject of skinned mesh animations, it doesn't really have advantages in FSX when used on rigid meshes as it will increase drawcalls and mdl size while not having any positive effect at all.
One of the top 5 customer support questions with our Fw190 is why the canopy doesn't move.
Answer: enable advanced animations. :wavey:
Rigid meshes can be animated as accurately using the classics method, with the benefit of better performance.
Just place your object's pivots to the correct locations/orientations and use local coordinates from the rollout to move/rotate the stuff.

hadhart
March 19th, 2010, 02:01
great job :salute:

harleyman
March 19th, 2010, 03:06
DUDE...That plane is missing a prop.....

Hey..I do not understand one word about all this building stuff..i am completely clueless, and perfer to stay that way...BUT

I do understand that you have had quite a break thru here....

congrats to you on your hard work and efforts with bones...





Keep it up and you are destined to make quite a name and reputation for yourself in the future...

Lionheart
March 19th, 2010, 03:15
Looking good Bjoern!

:ernae:


You will begin to think of it as your child. You will start calling it things like 'liebshin' and 'my little babooshkah' and other romantic things. You will dream of it at night, flying in it, talking to it, trying to think of a way to make the interior window edges more smooth, how to animate the gear better, the ultimate prop disc, how the engines should sound, how the door sound alignment could be done to synch with the door animations, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

You will wake up from a daze with a body in pain and realise you hadnt eaten in 3 days, and have just enough energy left to crawl to the kitchen for bread and cheese sticks, then back to the computer to Max...


Wilkommen zum unseren World... :d

EgoR64
March 19th, 2010, 05:13
Great Stuff Bjoern,

So far I have only delvd a little into GMAX, Still Waiting for the Gmax for Super Dummies - LOL !! I did manage to make what appears to be a bomb and of course my fav the Babe Bucket - LOL !!

Many Cheers to your adventure & I hope we get to fly her someday !!

Brett_Henderson
March 19th, 2010, 05:17
Well Done ! :salute:

The humanitarian in me wants to tell you to RUN far away from this stuff, while you still have a soul :kilroy: ..

But I think you might have crossed the point of no return.. LOL

RE: The bone stuff.. I'm no expert, and there's no doubt you've learned pricelss modeling skills, but I think it's over-kill for mechanical animations. As mentioned.. pivot-points, linking and meticulaous transformations will get the same effect. with less workload at run-time. I've got a Bae-146 in the works with a similar gear arrangement. Solid parts and hinge-like animations.

As for flight-dynamics.. as soon as the model is functional, drop me a PM. I'll take a stab at it if my current project (Partenavia P68) doesn't have me consumed.

Daube
March 19th, 2010, 06:13
Great job so far Bjoern !
I have no (or very few) knowledge in aircraft modelling but I understand you've been through some serious (and successfully) experimentation time there. Good luck for the rest of the model, this is the kind of plane I really like, I just hope you can fit some nice virtual cockpit in it ;)

kilo delta
March 19th, 2010, 08:53
Excellent work,Bjoern...can't wait to try this in FSX. :ernae:



When did you say it'd be ready? ;) :bump:

Bjoern
March 19th, 2010, 11:03
Woah, page two already! :isadizzy:

A big "thank you" to the rest of you as well!




Rigid meshes can be animated as accurately using the classics method, with the benefit of better performance.
Just place your object's pivots to the correct locations/orientations and use local coordinates from the rollout to move/rotate the stuff.

Well, so far performance is really good and in the case it gets out of hand I can still revert to the classical method.

The whole pivot method was too inaccurate for my taste when I started, but now that I think of it...yeah, it's an option. With a correct hierachy and stuff....




DUDE...That plane is missing a prop.....

Prop number two is coming once number one is animated.




You will begin to think of it as your child. You will start calling it things like 'liebshin' and 'my little babooshkah' and other romantic things. You will dream of it at night, flying in it, talking to it, trying to think of a way to make the interior window edges more smooth, how to animate the gear better, the ultimate prop disc, how the engines should sound, how the door sound alignment could be done to synch with the door animations, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Believe me, I've been there for a long time. This thing occupies my mind during every mental meditation, err...shower session. :P


You will wake up from a daze with a body in pain and realise you hadnt eaten in 3 days, and have just enough energy left to crawl to the kitchen for bread and cheese sticks, then back to the computer to Max...Yup. I've lost six pounds so far during (I think) this week. A nice way to lose weight. :D


Wilkommen zum unseren World... :d[Grammar nazi mode]
...in unserer Welt. ;) :d
[/Grammar nazi mode]




RE: The bone stuff.. I'm no expert, and there's no doubt you've learned pricelss modeling skills, but I think it's over-kill for mechanical animations. As mentioned.. pivot-points, linking and meticulaous transformations will get the same effect. with less workload at run-time. I've got a Bae-146 in the works with a similar gear arrangement. Solid parts and hinge-like animations.

Yeah, the 146's gear is quite similar.

Yet, having everything follow you with the drag of a handle in real-time is aaaaweome. :D


As for flight-dynamics.. as soon as the model is functional, drop me a PM. I'll take a stab at it if my current project (Partenavia P68) doesn't have me consumed.Cool, thanks for the offer Brett!




Good luck for the rest of the model, this is the kind of plane I really like, I just hope you can fit some nice virtual cockpit in it ;)

Ha! A VC is the main reason why I started work on the 328 in the first place! MSFS hasn't seen a VC in one of those since 2002 and even back then it only had a static one. So I really have enough "firsts" to grab. :d




As for you two...

When did you say it'd be ready? ;) :bump:


When will it be released? (I am waiting impatiently...:a1089: ;o)))))

...I'll pay you a visit. WITH A TANK! :icon_lol:



Btw: I'm considering making this project the first "open source" and evolutionary aircraft in MSFS history. Say I'll throw the external model on my webspace and add and fix stuff as time passes. This can provide me with some fairly instantaneous feedback and eliminate the wait for you guys.
I'm still mentally fighting over whether I should make it literal open source (provide the .max file in the download) or not. On the one hand...open source, on the other...a whole tree of different, confusing versions of the model.
Hmm...

grunau_baby
March 19th, 2010, 11:33
...I'll pay you a visit. WITH A TANK! Nah, that´s not my trip, mate!:monkies:

But seing your progress and regarding my own ever trials at 3D-aircraft modelling - which got pretty well nowhere... - I am impressed. Looks like a true labor of love!:applause:

Alex

Gibbage
March 19th, 2010, 12:33
I have quite a few video tutorials I made that may help you out on your model. Take a look at some of them.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gibbage1

If there are area's you would like a little info on, let me know! Ill do my best to help out.

Lionheart
March 19th, 2010, 14:57
Nah, that´s not my trip, mate!:monkies:

But seing your progress and regarding my own ever trials at 3D-aircraft modelling - which got pretty well nowhere... - I am impressed. Looks like a true labor of love!:applause:

Alex


Alex,

I say we come over there and put Gmax back on your computer!


You know.. You can make cars on Gmax also.

:wiggle:



Bill

Lotus
March 19th, 2010, 17:06
Your plane is looking great Bjoern. :) Developing planes is an incredibly difficult and time consuming endeavour but it's awfully satisfying when it all comes together, hehe.

I'd like to play devil's advocate on the subject of skinned mesh and performance though if I may. It can both hurt or help performance immensely depending on where and how it is used. Provided that you use the same material and texture on a bunch of animated parts, skinning them as one mesh can actually save you a ton of performance, but only if the hierarchy is very flat. It's great for things like ailerons, elevators, rudders etc as you can combine all these parts into a single object and they will be rendered as one draw call, rather than a bunch of them. Every part on an airplane that is animated with traditional rotations and transforms results in the sim having to make it a new draw call. Draw calls aren't the end all be all of performance (high poly and texture vertex counts hurt a lot more) but they do add up, and skinning can help keep them in check.

The trouble with skinned mesh comes when you use it on objects with very deep hierarchies or chains of bones, such as a complex articulating landing gear. When you have more than 2 or 3 bones in a chain you end up multiplying the work the cpu has to do in transforming all the vertices exponentially each frame, and it can slow things down a fair bit. So for landing gear I'd recommend making them with traditional animations. Another bonus of going traditional for the gear is that you can hide those parts with visibility tags when they're retracted into their bays, saving even more render time when the plane is in flight. Trying to use vis tags on skinned mesh objects is very dicey. It works about 1% of the time, blows up the other 99%, at least in my experience, hehe.

For all other animations though, where you don't have complex hierarchies of parts, skinned mesh can really help things out on the FPS front in the final product, and with a limit of 128 bones per model you can knock a heck of a lot of draw calls off if you plan it out carefully. It's quite a potent feature of FSX.

Good luck with the project!

-Mike

peter12213
March 19th, 2010, 18:14
Listen to the MASTER ^^^LOL! :salute:

Bjoern
March 20th, 2010, 18:47
I have quite a few video tutorials I made that may help you out on your model. Take a look at some of them.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gibbage1

If there are area's you would like a little info on, let me know! Ill do my best to help out.

Oh, those are yours? Haha, I've watched them ages ago and they were fairly informative. :d




...

Well, I just got my first kick to the head with bones anyways. Suspension, extraction/retraction and nose wheel steering just don't work together with bones. *Grr*
So back to regular techniques for the problematic parts. *Sigh*

As for performance, it's five materials split up on ~60k polies with 100 bones (using two materials of those five). I want the final plane to use no more than ten materials and as few texture files as possible.

So I *hope* I'll be safe in terms of performance. So far, my quad doesn't complain.

Bjoern
March 23rd, 2010, 10:33
Yesterday's jam, err....screenshots.

Wing view. Spoilers, weird shading,...
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_001.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_001.jpg)

...trim tabs and roll spoilers.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_002.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_002.jpg)

Flaps. Note to self: Do some textures providing *way* more contrast.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_003.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_003.jpg)

Rudder and elevator plus trim tabs.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_004.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_004.jpg)

Pax door, cargo door, prop.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_005.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_005.jpg)

Feathered...
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_006.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_006.jpg)

...unfeathered.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_007.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_007.jpg)

Cabin. To be filled with butt-ugly low-poly seats.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_008.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_008.jpg)

Nose gear detail.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_009.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_009.jpg)

Bjoern
March 23rd, 2010, 10:33
I think I could pass this off as a VC. :icon_lol:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_010.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_010.jpg)

Main gear detail. Ignore the buggy dampers for now.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_011.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_011.jpg)

Baggage compartment. I love the light shining into it.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_012.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_012.jpg)

Pax door again...
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_013.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_013.jpg)

...to show off the folding railing a bit.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/th_FSX_Do-328_Preview_014.jpg (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/FS%20Development/FSX_Do-328_Preview_014.jpg)


Lots of stuff left to do, but I'm mostly there (in terms of an avergae exterior model).