'9 Out Of 10 Of You WON'T Make The Cut'

[Panther_99FS]

And I was one of those nine....:icon_lol: :d

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123192386

[tigisfat]

That's rough. How much TIS do you have? how many scored medals do you have? I used to look at the calculators, but then I realized it wasn't science. I just needed to study my butt off. To this day, I don't think there's a single AF test, such as CDCs or WAPs, that I haven't scored at least past 98% of everyone on. At least everything flows into the next. I got dual 98s when I tested for staff, even though my vMPF doesn't reflect it. It changed, but I still have the original score sheet. Someone once told me who worked in promotions down in Randolph, that the top 1.5% is reserved for the curve because you can't outscore yourself. I've never had that substantiated.

[Willy]

About your first time up for E-8 wasn't it?

[Panther_99FS]

That's rough. How much TIS do you have? how many scored medals do you have? I used to look at the calculators, but then I realized it wasn't science. I just needed to study my butt off. To this day, I don't think there's a single AF test, such as CDCs or WAPs, that I haven't scored at least past 98% of everyone on. At least everything flows into the next. I got dual 98s when I tested for staff, even though my vMPF doesn't reflect it. It changed, but I still have the original score sheet. Someone once told me who worked in promotions down in Randolph, that the top 1.5% is reserved for the curve because you can't outscore yourself. I've never had that substantiated.

Hey Tigisfat...
The key difference with E-8 vs E-5 through E-7 are your board scores & having a senior rater endorser have a major impact. I know a guy who made it 1st time up for SMSgt :)....His board score was also the highest in the USAF.....

[Panther_99FS]

About your first time up for E-8 wasn't it?

LoL yep - but I know some sh#$ hot folks that didn't make it this cycle either......Less than 10% promotion rate truly means the best of the best...:applause:

[tigisfat]

LoL yep - but I know some sh#$ hot folks that didn't make it this cycle either......Less than 10% promotion rate truly means the best of the best...:applause:

It means a lot, but I don't know about it meaning just the best. We judge our SNCOs by some highly debatable standards when it comes to promotion in the USAF. I don't know any smart people who wouldn't question how you spent your time if you had made SMSgt in say, 17 years. Therein lies an assumption that you hadn't spent much time paying attention toy your primary duties. I think it's kinda crooked, personally. Most of the time the package only intially gets looked at for a second or two, and what's left gets racked and stacked.

Nevertheless,

I'm sorry you didn't make it, or have the same shot others have over the years (do to this years crazy rate). Good luck next time.

[Panther_99FS]

It
I'm sorry you didn't make it, or have the same shot others have over the years (do to this years crazy rate). Good luck next time.

Actually,
Things have improved over the years....in 2006, it was 8.6% and in 1995, it was 4.6%....:isadizzy:

[lifejogger]

Sounds harder than taking the CPA exam.

[Ken Stallings]

This was the first time up for the rank, right Ed?

The selection rate is small, but the good news is an NCO remains eligible for several years. For an officer, except for very unusual circumstances, you get two shots at a rank, then are tossed out! If you get passed over the first time, your odds for promotion the second time drop about five fold!

Ken

[tigisfat]

This was the first time up for the rank, right Ed?

The selection rate is small, but the good news is an NCO remains eligible for several years. For an officer, except for very unusual circumstances, you get two shots at a rank, then are tossed out! If you get passed over the first time, your odds for promotion the second time drop about five fold!

KenI just love how inflated it is. :applause:


It's more than a few years for NCOs. There have been plenty who've farted around and not made rank for ten years and then gotten after it and headed on to chief. As long as there is mush built into the USAF enlisted rank vs job system then it won't matter. There are staffs that do what masters are supposed to, and chiefs and seniors mostly have the same job at many bases. Most enlisted have the goal of getting to a point where they don't have to actually perform their primary duty anymore.

[Willy]

In some ways it sounds like the Navy, but different in others. I made everything up to and including CPO 1st time up every time and never got any higher as I kept getting out of rate jobs for the rest of my career. But I had a great time too doing all those odd jobs, so I guess it worked out. Besides last I heard way less than 10% of career sailors make Chief so I beat those odds.

[Panther_99FS]

I just love how inflated it is. :applause:


It's more than a few years for NCOs. There have been plenty who've farted around and not made rank for ten years and then gotten after it and headed on to chief. As long as there is mush built into the USAF enlisted rank vs job system then it won't matter. There are staffs that do what masters are supposed to, and chiefs and seniors mostly have the same job at many bases. Most enlisted have the goal of getting to a point where they don't have to actually perform their primary duty anymore.

Tigisfat,
I hear these issues quite often from E-5s and below so let me see what I can say here...

You talk about "mush"? When I made SSgt, the promotion rate was around 16% as of late, it's now ranged from 40% to 62%! - and it shows in some SSgts. I knew a kid made SSgt 1st time testing, blew his CDC EOC test out of the water but was a terrible leader/supervisor. Was he smart? Yep! Could he lead? Nope! (hopefully that "how well does the airman lead/supervise was checked "lower" on his EPR). We realized that what we had was a SrA in SSgt stripes & thus we provided additional mentoring to him in order to get him up to speed. First term airmen perspectives are signifcantly determined by their first supervisor - which most of the time is a SSgt. I had a great SSgt as my 1st supervisor but I've unfortunately seen some potentially great future performers have negative attitudes due to the influence of their 1st supervisor.

There are also outstanding SrAs performing SSgt functions & outstanding MSgts performing SMSgt & CMSgt duties.....SSgts & TSgts don't have the monopoly of performing above their pay grade here....

Having worked directly with some SMSgts & CMSgts, I'll say their jobs are NOT the same at most bases. Example: My command CMSgt function is pure managerial - my supervisor's function (also a CMSgt) is 100% operational.

As far as enlisted reaching a point of not wanting to do their primary duty anymore, well, I've seen that point reached at the E-1 level too....

Thankfully, there are sh## hot performers (like yourself) ranging from E-1 to E-9 :)

So back to the "best of the best" making SMSgt.....All the MSgts that I personally know who made SMSgt definitely deserved it & I support & congratulate them 100%. Also, all the SMSgts that I personally know who made CMSgt were also outstanding leaders & ops performers - I congratulate them & welcome their leadership :guinness:

[GT182]

I sure hope you make it next time around Ed. Orrrrrr, you could always sic some of your gals on em to change their minds. ;)

[Navy Chief]

In some ways it sounds like the Navy, but different in others. I made everything up to and including CPO 1st time up every time and never got any higher as I kept getting out of rate jobs for the rest of my career. But I had a great time too doing all those odd jobs, so I guess it worked out. Besides last I heard way less than 10% of career sailors make Chief so I beat those odds.

Willy,

I had similar experiences, except it took me twice to pick up CPO. Still, spending half my career as a Chief wasn't too bad, especially as an AME. I do know things go in cycles though. When I made it, they selected 28. I recall years when the available slots was less than 10.

Pete

Good luck, Panther. You'll make it next time.....not to fret.

[tigisfat]

Good luck, Panther. You'll make it next time.....not to fret.


The USAF enlisted forces promotes a lot slower than the other services. To even be testing for SMSgt at 20 years is, in many career fields, doin' pretty good ahead of the curve. The top two ranks are wierd in the USAF, a well-respected E-8 or E-9 has fought for every inch of that respect. I hope he does make it next time, he seems pretty good at keeping his cool around here.........:173go1:

[tigisfat]

....... I knew a kid made SSgt 1st time testing, blew his CDC EOC test out of the water but was a terrible leader/supervisor. Was he smart? Yep! Could he lead? Nope!

Why is that? The other services promote to NCO rank much faster. You can be an NCO in the Army in two years. Do they think making it in 4 years is way to fast? They don't, and those 2 year NCOs are the first ones in the door. We have a top heavy system where not much is expected of E-1s through E-5s when it really matters. The AF only seems cushier than the other services. In truth, we are the most highly directive when it comes to job execution. If I were to stay in forever and have a greater impact, it would be to expect more responsibility from subordinates through a much more intensive indoctrination. I think I did a good job of it, but it never felt like enough.

[Panther_99FS]

I think I did a good job of it, but it never felt like enough.

You did well then if you felt like your efforts were never enough...especially with 1st term airmen...:mixedsmi:

[viking3]

When I served in the Canadian Forces, we were in the process of integrating women and francophones so our promotion program was skewed to give them priority over anglophone males. To say this added much friction and some undue promotions would be an understatement.:kilroy: Then in 1985 the CF combined my trade(comm systems) with radar systems which halved our NCO positions. So much for ever being promoted past M/Cpl. Quite a few people in my trade wound up commissioning from the ranks and went officer after they had the lobotomy:icon_lol:
I decided to bail out to Air Canada after 7 years, and that has been another barrel of monkeys.:isadizzy:

Regards, Rob:ernae:

[Ken Stallings]

Why is that? The other services promote to NCO rank much faster. You can be an NCO in the Army in two years. Do they think making it in 4 years is way to fast? They don't, and those 2 year NCOs are the first ones in the door. We have a top heavy system where not much is expected of E-1s through E-5s when it really matters. The AF only seems cushier than the other services. In truth, we are the most highly directive when it comes to job execution. If I were to stay in forever and have a greater impact, it would be to expect more responsibility from subordinates through a much more intensive indoctrination. I think I did a good job of it, but it never felt like enough.

You may not like my reply, but it's the honest truth.

Because of the far larger turnover in the Army, making rank is vastly easier for both enlisted and officers than it is in the Air Force. It has always been that way.

Both the officer corps and NCO corps are limited in total numbers by act of Congress. So, it takes an average of eight years to make Major in the USAF, but only six in the US Army. It takes about 15 years for an airman to make Master Sergeant in the USAF, but in the US Army, you generally make E-7 in about 10 years, sometimes less.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Quite a few people in my trade wound up commissioning from the ranks and went officer after they had the lobotomy:icon_lol:

Regards, Rob:ernae:

Hey now -- I resemble that remark! :icon_lol:

[jmig]

And I was one of those nine....:icon_lol: :d

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123192386

I have had the good fortune to have actually met Ed in person. I don't why he didn't make Senior Master in the USAF this time around. I can say one thing. It wasn't because he isn't enough of a class act. You won't find a finer individual.

The only thing I can see, is his obvious lack of ability to recognize what a beautiful woman looks like. ;)

:bump:

[Ken Stallings]

LOL!!!!!

[tigisfat]

You may not like my reply, but it's the honest truth.

Because of the far larger turnover in the Army, making rank is vastly easier for both enlisted and officers than it is in the Air Force. It has always been that way.

Both the officer corps and NCO corps are limited in total numbers by act of Congress. So, it takes an average of eight years to make Major in the USAF, but only six in the US Army. It takes about 15 years for an airman to make Master Sergeant in the USAF, but in the US Army, you generally make E-7 in about 10 years, sometimes less.

Cheers,

Ken

I don't know why I wouldn't like it, it is the truth. My brother's graduating class at West Point benefitted from a nearly 100% promotion rate to major.....if they stayed in. Many elected to pull chocks regardless of the good promotions to be had. You can't make majors out of thin air, you gotta grow them by promoting the hell outta people in expansion years. Much of my time in the USAF was in decline years, but I did alright anyway.

[Willy]

Willy,

I had similar experiences, except it took me twice to pick up CPO. Still, spending half my career as a Chief wasn't too bad, especially as an AME. I do know things go in cycles though. When I made it, they selected 28. I recall years when the available slots was less than 10.

Pete

Good luck, Panther. You'll make it next time.....not to fret.

Pete, I went up for Chief that time basically with it being for drill in mind as I'd never heard of an EN making it in less than 3 tries. And I just barely had 10 years in when I took the test. I didn't even bother to send a package to the selection board as I figured that would be a waste of time and postage. When I was first told that I had been selected, I figured they were pulling my leg. I really didn't believe it until I actually saw the message the next day. To this day, I'm the only EN I ever heard of making it first time up. Like you said, spending the last half of my career as a Chief was pretty darn good.

[Panther_99FS]

I had the pleasure of working with some USN CPOs & SCPO's during a TDY to USSTRATCOM....I must say that I enjoyed the experience....:guinness: