On PBS Nova tonight... "Killer Subs at Pearl."

[crashaz]

Killer Subs in Pearl Harbor
The Season 37 premiere delves beneath the waters of Pearl Harbor to explore whether the sinking of the USS Arizona, long believed to have been caused by a bomb dropped by a Japanese aircraft, resulted from a torpedo strike from a Japanese midget sub.

Check your local listings:
http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/ (http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/)

While very interesting and I will be watching tonight.....

I am calling BS... IN CAPS!! No midget sub ever was responsible for sinking a battleship @ Pearl!:a1451:

[PRB]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, crashaz. But I will watch. Sounds interesting. Thanks for the HU!

[Cloud9Gal]

Hey Crash?

You look funny on top of that soapbox.....http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/Others/others-062.gif (http://freesmileyface.net/Free-Others-Smileys.html)



:bump:


Oh wait....I have the perfect emo for your "BS in CAPS"------> http://www.tiptopglobe.com/skin/smile/s233.gif (http://www.tiptopglobe.com/free-smiles-smileys-emoticons-blog-forum-email)

[crashaz]

They spoke of the bad turning radius of those subs... hence the reason the midget sunk by Monaghan was sunk north of Ford Island. I read somewhere where the plan for the midget subs was to sail around Ford Island from the north and loop back around to Battleship Row.

Ok lets say for instance that the sub really was there like they referred in the picture... now the sub must escape without being seen. What is the quickest way out and offers less exposure time to surveillance? The southern route around Ford Island.

First lets assume that the sub fired it's torpedoes at the height of the torpedo plane attack between 7:55 and 8:05... and the sub made a run for it to escape... all eyes at the Navy Yard
were on Battleship Row.... everyone looking in that direction missed seeing a periscope??

Ok secondly lets assume.. ok the sub settled to the bottom and decided to wait.... well sailing over that area where the sub would have settled to the bottom...


@0842 USS Neosho passed over this position.... loaded with fuel... after leaving Ford Island on her way to Merry Point in Southeast Lock area

USS Nevada sortied @ 8:40 just as Neosho was clearing that area... um don't think the sub would tag right behind her... especially considering the attack from the 2nd wave which hit Nevada and anything around her which the hapless Shaw could attest to.

USS St. Louis sortied 0931 and took the southern route.

USS Phoenix sortied @ 1030 and took the southern route.

The southern route around Ford Island is the route taken by the Nevada during the attack... well documented about this sortie as not all officers were on board and the terrific seamanship performed by Thomas, Ruff and Sedberry.

The Nevada had to navigate between 1010 Dock, the Floating Drydock (USS Shaw onboard) and the Dredge!

See this pic attached... that line coming from the Southwest corner of Ford Island.... that is the dredge.... not a lot of room to manuver. Add to that...Nevada would be beaching on Hospital Point and then having it's fantail swing out into the channel.


Knowing the turning radius on those midget subs could it have actually made all the turns around Ford's southern route?


I beleive this midget sub they discovered it the one that fired @ St. Louis as she was about to clear the channel exiting harbor... see Action Report here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph84.htm#anchor48397

I would be interested in this Midget E from I-17 to see relative to the other midget launch points... how much air they could hold... and even full out speed... could have beat Midget B and gotten around Ford Island and in position by 0755.

I think not... the points I have brought out were not mentioned in the NOVA program at all.

I call Bull http://www.tiptopglobe.com/skin/smile/s233.gif (http://www.tiptopglobe.com/free-smiles-smileys-emoticons-blog-forum-email) (PS. Thanks C9G!) and not Halsey either!!

:salute:

[crashaz]

BTW here is link given to me by J Michael Wenger... a noted Pearl Harbor historian where they are discussing this subject.


http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=8601.0

[TARPSBird]

Maybe I'm missing something here but...
I thought the alleged torpedo hit on Arizona was ruled out some years ago when the Navy did a detailed underwater survey of the ship. One of the objectives of the survey was to confirm/deny the presence of torpedo damage to AZ's starboard side and there was no such damage. My hat's off to the midget sub crews for undertaking their near suicidal missions, but I think the St. Louis is the only ship that got shot at by a midget.

[Craig Taylor]

Not to intentionally add to the fire, but I seem to recall watching a similar midget sub program on the History Channel not too long ago that put forth a theory that one of the other BB's got hit by a midget sub's torpedo -- Oklahoma, perhaps? OK, it got hit by five torpedos...

This blog entry at USAToday seems to suggest so, and also says that the midget sub's other torpedo, a dud, struck the Arizona. http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2009/12/japanese-submarine-may-have-torpedoed-uss-oklahoma-at-pearl-harbor.html

[TARPSBird]

Craig, I think that was the show where they built a model of the Pearl Harbor type midget sub and replicated the well-known photo of Battleship Row as shot from one of the strike aircraft. Supposedly there's a conning tower of an unknown sub visible out in the group of torpedo wakes. They did give some credibility to the presence of a sub out there, but I'm still unconvinced. There is also the issue of how many torpedoes (out of ten total for the midgets) are accounted for, either still in the midgets that have been recovered or fired during the attack as in the USS St. Louis engagement.
I'm curious as to where this story of the Arizona being hit by a dud torpedo got its start. Fifteen minutes or so into the attack the AZ would no longer have been a very lucrative target for a torp, having already been torn apart by the magazine explosion. And if Vestal were still alongside the AZ she probably would have taken the torp hit. This history nerd stuff can be contagious.
Maybe the crewmen of that missing fifth sub scuttled it and sat out the war in Hawaii - probably ended up renting apartments to sailors! :d