OT * B-25 Procedures and the Doolittle Raid * OT

[PRB]

If you've read the MAAM B-25 pilot manual (and you have read the manual, right..?) You may remember the takeoff technique is to pull the nose wheel off the runway as soon as possible, and roll along like that with the nose wheel in the air until take off speed is achieved, at which point the plane will fly off. At least that's what I got from the book.

So now I'm reading a book about the USS Hornet (CV-8). In the chapter on the Doolittle raid, there are recollections made by Hornet Air Department people about when the time came for the B-25s to depart, that “those crazy Army pilots” who “didn't remember a word we tried to teach them about how to take off from a carrier” as they “tried to physically yank the planes off the deck as soon as they started rolling!” And “We told them there's plenty of room to take off normally, but nooo, they all had their noses pulled up like they were afraid of the edge of the deck or something.” And if you've seen the black and white footage of the Doolittle planes taking off, sure enough, that's what it looks like. Or does it..?

I'm wondering if perhaps those Army pilots were not quite is thick skulled as the Navy guys thought... Perhaps they were using standard and correct technique, even if the Navy spectators were unaware of B-25 procedures.

Just a random thought for a Saturday afternoon.

[Curtis P40]

If I remember correctly, A short field takeoff was made starting out with full aft elevator on both tricycle and tail draggers.

[PRB]

Well, 1) Did they actually execute a short field take off? They had, at a minimum, 30 knots of wind over the deck. Probably more, given the stormy condition in which they launched. It's possible the greater challenge wasn't the “runway length”, but the vertical movement of the “runway”, the bottoms of which included sea water over end of it... I don't really know. And, 2) The B-25 take off procedure that includes "lifting" the nose wheel off the runway is not limited to short field take offs, but is normal to all take offs, apparently. My question, specifically, is: Did the navy pilots who observed the Doolittle launch, and thought the Army pilots were “panicked” and trying to “will” the twin-engined beasties off the tiny wind-swept flight deck, misinterpret a perfectly normal B-25 takeoff? We may never know.

[cheezyflier]

We may never know.

i think there is a way we can know. but i'm not sure how to go about doing it. we need to ask somebody at maam. i know there is someone from there who occasionally posts here, but for the life of me i can't remember who.

[TeaSea]

Well.....we already have an expert. He took the first plane off the deck. That would be Jimmy Doolittle.

At this point Doolittle :


Held a Doctorate in Aeronautics from MIT.



Had won the Schneider Cup.



Been awarded the Harmon Trophy for becoming the first instrument pilot.



Served with the Naval Test Board and was a pioneer in Naval flying while he served in the Army Air Corps.



Won the Thompson Racing Trophy flying the Gee Bee.



Was the first pilot to perform an outside loop.



Won the Bendix Trophy

He was in on all planning for the raid, picked and trained the crews and pilots, assisted by a hand picked team of Naval aviators, and volunteered to lead the mission. Doolittle was also experienced in landing and taking off from carrier decks.

If you notice, with 460 feet of deck in front of him, Doolittle clearly lifts that nose wheel off the deck as soon as he can. Subsequent aircraft repeat this procedure, holding the nose up and keeping the elevators constant as the aircraft pick up speed. Just like the book says.

I would submit that this puts any comments from the USS Hornet Air Department in their proper context.

[cheezyflier]

well, sure, those credentials do seem impressive, but i don't remember that guy posting here. what's his avatar look like?
















































sorry, i couldn't resist:icon_lol:

[TeaSea]

Hee-Hee.......

You are forgiven!!

:applause:

[TeaSea]

It should be noted that the idea for the raid came from the U.S. Navy, via an officer on Admiral King's staff when asked if there was anyway the U.S. could strike back against Japan.

I don't believe anyone ever considered using anything other than the B-25 (which was considered a hot new ship) once King's staff realized it would actually fit on a carrier -- could be wrong about that, but I've never read otherwise.

Gen Arnold loved the idea, and drafted Doolittle to work with the Navy to get it right. As noted, Doolittle had a fairly diverse background, especially with the Navy.

I suspect he had more flying hours than anyone else in the Pacific Theater at the time of the raid, and could probably claim as many hours in Navy aircraft (albeit older float planes) as many of the pilots on the Hornet. No way to verify that....just a suspicion.

PRB's random thought is pretty good. I had never heard that that some folks would disagree with how the aircraft got off the deck.

[PRB]

I may be trying to “extract” more than is contained in the writing I've seen so far. According to The Doolittle Raid, by Carroll V. Glines, they did indeed practice an “unusual” take off technique that involved “almost dragging the tail on the runway”. He also says that the newer pilots were easier to train than the old crusty ones. I believe that! Both The Doolittle Raid and The Ship That Held the Line (Lisle A. Rose) agree that at some point in the launch, Lt. Hank Miller, the navy pilot who had trained the USAAC pilots back on shore in how to take off from a carrier, made up a sign that read “STABILIZER NEUTRAL!” This seems to confirm that the navy people, Miller at least, thought the Army pilots weren't “doing it right”. On page 70 of The Ship That Held the Line, there is a quote from the Hornet's war diary: “With only one exception, take offs were dangerous and improperly executed.”

I've got to believe that the Navy was aware of the technique Doolittles pilots were going to use when taking off. So, what were they seeing that made them rush out with a sign that said “stabilizer neutral”? The actual descriptions of the take offs in these books either conform to the tail dragging technique, and/or the normal procedure found in the MAAM pilot manual. Oh, and they had 40 knots of wind over the deck at launch time!

Interesting, anyway.

[TeaSea]

This may be a case of having trained one way, and not wanting to change the the training at execution, despite an agreed upon technique (not getting a chance to rehearse).

Unfortunately, the film of the Doolittle take off, does not show you his elevator's position, only the nose wheel lifting off almost immediately (I think we have to assume he held his yoke back for that to happen).

In any case....all aircraft lifted off the deck with no problem, even the one which did not lower his flaps (although he's the one that drops off the end of the deck).

If I could add to your original observation, this is a very good example of Joint Operations, long before that doctrinal term was coined. Often, the services are pointed to as being totally inbred with an intense rivalry. In fact, the U.S. armed forces worked fairly well together, much closer in WWII than the Japanese or German forces.<iframe style="border: 2px inset ; width: 540px; height: 250px;" tabindex="1" id="vB_Editor_001_iframe"></iframe>

[PRB]

Good point about inter-service cooperation.

[PRB]

Here's some interesting footage. One taken of a B-25 taking off from the Carl Vinson in 1995. Looks like they're doing the same thing as the Doolittle pilots.

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Here's some footage of the real launch. It's just amazing. Imagine what must have been going through their minds. They had to leave early, after being spotted by the Japanese picket boat, so they were in a huge rush to get the heck off the ship. They had never taken off from a carrier before. I'd be surprised if there weren't more mistakes. Looks like most of the “issues” happened after the planes left the deck. And notice how much the ship is moving. Just amazing.

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And that shot of what looks like a Salt Lake City class cruiser burying her bow in that big wave – awesome!

[crashaz]

Wow nice clips! Guess that settles the arguement about how the Army fliers did it.

The SLC class and her sisters were not very good seagoing boats... really not much more beam than a Omaha class CL.... they just threw 8 in guns on her. :icon_lol:

[TeaSea]

Can you imagine what it took to get permission to take that B-25 off the Carl Vinson??

[EgoR64]

:salute:

Even though a Port the MAAM B-25 is still one of my fav - Great Pics and Vids - Is fun Stuff !! :ernae:


Cheers !!

[aeromed202]

It was awhile back that I helped my wife research the Doolittle Raid. As I remember the training was something like extreme aft trim and get the nose wheel off the ground to add the thrust vector to the wing and flap lift. The engines were also modified with new parts and carb adjustments for optimum power. During the cross-country hops to Alameida a regular ground crew noticed that the adjustments were all wrong and started to put them back to standard specs. Luckily this was caught and corrected.
I fly FS9 and adjusted a freeware B-25 to do what they did, take off from a carrier with 31000lbs of aircraft, bombs, and fuel into a 30-40 knot head wind. I figured I had it when I barely made it off each time. The movie "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" was unusually accurate to the facts as retold by the surviving crews.

[TeaSea]

That was something I was not aware of....good info!

[cheezyflier]

i tried it in fs9 with briefing time and got the same results. i made it off the deck, but with no room to spare.


***i should add that all i did was slew out to that carrier off the frisco coast. i know that one is longer than the ones used in the raid, right?

[crashaz]

Hahaha well I appreciate the fact you guys didn't blow up my Task Force 16 scenery. :icon_lol: