Okay...framerates and the ND UH-1

[piperarcherpilot]

Nemeth, Milviz, and community,

My system has a huge problem with the Nemeth/Milviz UH-1...and I'm looking for help diagnosing what is so toxic to my computer about it, to fix if possible, if not, just to understand whats going on.

I am using an HP laptop - dual core 1.8 ghz centrino processor, 256 mb Nvidia 8600 card, 4 gb ram, Vista 32 with all the latest windows and HP firmware updates. Sure, not the greatest computer, but it runs FSX quite well. As a benchmark, I have framerates locked at 20, and it holds this over medium sized cities with all the sliders medium high or higher with default aircraft.

I consider the CS 757 Pro to be the aircraft I have that is (or should be) 'heaviest' on system resources, and it still produces framerates flyable near the ground and back up to 20 once I'm about 10,000 feet and higher. All the other addons I have, both pay and free, including other ND helicopters, are somewhere in this range between default and the CS 757 in terms of performance.

But what I dont understand is why on earth the Huey is such a huge draw on resources. I just downloaded the latest patch at the ND website in hopes this would somehow fix things, but to no avail. Here are some screenshots to help get my point across:

Default 737 at KBZN:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/PiperArcherPilot/Untitled-2-2.jpg

Captain Sim 757 Pro at KBZN:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/PiperArcherPilot/Untitled-1.jpg

ND MD 500 at KBZN:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/PiperArcherPilot/Untitled-4-1.jpg

ND UH-1 at KBZN:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/PiperArcherPilot/Untitled-3-1.jpg

With all other aircraft, gameplay is pretty darn smooth, even with lower frames as you can see with the 757. But, the Huey causes HUGE fluctuations in framerate with slowdowns and jumpiness. Look at the "V:" values. What is this? Video card useage? Something in this model, I think, is causing the problem on my system, cause when I resize the textures, it still causes the same framerate problems. I've never experienced anything remotely near what I do with the Huey. So strange.

I have no clue whats causing this. Theres no reason it should be this much more resource intensive than the CS 757, should there?

Thanks for the help! :isadizzy:

Piper

[MCDesigns]

Yep, despite the patches the huey is harder on frames (despite claims to the contrary). Try backing up your textures and then resizing them in half, this usually helps with older systems. I find it interesting that the Puma which is a bigger, more complex aircraft is much easier on the frames for me, LOL.

[calypsos]

I do not think the last patch cured the FR's, I think there might have been one before that was supposed to cure them. I missed seeing it, so maybe you did too.

I think the model was made for display originally (and very good it was too) but it sure needs a lot of PC to render it smoothly.

[MCDesigns]

I do not think the last patch cured the FR's, I think there might have been one before that was supposed to cure them. I missed seeing it, so maybe you did too.

I think the model was made for display originally (and very good it was too) but it sure needs a lot of PC to render it smoothly.

uninstall, then redownload your original file, it was supposed to be updated with the first patch. Then install the 2nd update

I agree on the models. Milviz does great work, but if you look at the models on their site, they look more in line with the detail you use for rendering and animations than for game models. Hoping the Skycrane will be better. To bad the huey doesn't perform as good as the Corsair, that thing is a joy to fly.

[piperarcherpilot]

MCDesigns,

Actually, I've tried this. It really didnt help much. :(

Calypsos,

I think I purchased the chopper after the installer was updated with the FR patch - at least thats what they said.

Yes, its an absolutely gorgeous model! But I would be so pleased if they'd cut 1/3 of the poly's out of this thing, and I'll very much accept the slightly more boxy shape for something thats acutally flyable.

Glad I'm not the only one though. This addon is the only thing that just completely thrashes my machine, out of the dozens I've installed over the years into FSX so I was starting to think something in my computer was starting to fail!

Minor rant below:

I assumed (incorrectly of course) performance would be similar to other Nemeth helicopters. Maybe there should be a caution as part of the product description warning customers of its extremely resource intensive nature. Yeah, it was only 30 some odd bucks, but its a little irritating - especially since they announced the frame rate issues were 'fixed.' I'd hate to see how it was before it was fixed. Ah well, not the end of the world, but its disappointing. I just wont be buying any more Milviz-involved addons.

[deimos256]

The same applies for me with the FSD p-38, which was modeled by milviz as well, despite resized textures and plenty of FSX tweaking it still hits my system harder than anything else, Like the OP mentioned, i get the same jumps after using resized textures, leading me to believe its the model thats super complex.

[Gibbage]

256 mb Nvidia 8600 card

Thats the biggest problem there. 256MB on a video card is simply not enough to run all the textures on the H1 at full res. That hard cant even run FSX above 20FPS with normal aircraft.

[Rezabrya]

Gibbage, with all due respect, he just said above that he runs all other aircraft with tolerable performance. I admit that your pc is a little below FSX standards but it should not be giving you those low framerates. Remember that the Huey is the first helo from Nemeth Designs that Milviz has done, so you can't really compare the Huey to the other Helo's by Milviz. I am sorry to hear you are having problems and I hope they get resolved... it really is a joy to fly!

[piperarcherpilot]

Thanks Gibbage. But as I stated, even if I reduce the textures, say, all the way down to 1/4 of the full resolution size (so they look terrible, but just as a test) it doesnt help things at all. I'm a little confused as to whats causing this if its not the textures. I just did a test where I pulled all my FSX sliders to the full left, no autogen, no nothing, and even that didnt help.


That hard cant even run FSX above 20FPS with normal aircraft.<!-- / message --><!-- sig --> I guess it goes back to the saying 'every system is different', because this statement just isnt true for mine. It does just fine. If I set the FR lock to unlimited, average frames with a default airplane would be around 30. Thats perfectly fine for me. I just lock it to 20 because it seems to keep stutters away with the more complex addons. I know my computer is mediocre, but I'm very pleased with it with FSX. With default aircraft, for example, it takes a LOT to force it below 20fps. Over a big city, lots of clouds and precip and AI traffic and it will dip just below.

So, again, my question is considering how well other high detail models (CS C-130, CS 757, Lotus L39, Aerosoft F-16, etc) perform, why is this helicopter so different? Is it the model's complexity? The number of texture tiles, rather than the size?

[krazycolin]

Hi Piper...

Where did you purchase your Huey? And yes, it's quite the big model but it would seem that you are really one of the few who do, still, have this issue. Did you turn off aircraft self shadowing? DX10? Bloom? All of those are not going to help on a system with your specs.

If you wish, please provide me with a proof of purchase and I will refund your money immediately. (out of my own pocket).

Otherwise, there's not much I can do. The model has now been out for nigh on 3 months and very few, if any, have commented on any FPS issues still remaining.

Concerning the Skycrane, it will be less than the Huey is in terms of polys.

As for the Corsair, well... part of the reason it runs so nicely is that it was built by Kevin "Gibbage" Miller who is a dandy modeler.

If you aren't purchasing anymore of "our" add-ons there's not much I can do to stop you (or anyone else for that matter) but to say, that we are always pushing the limits and boundaries of what can be done in FSX as well as learning new skills and methods for increasing FPS.

kc.

[Gibbage]

Running default aircraft at sub 20FPS shows that your video card simply is not capable of running FSX, let alone aircraft made at a much higher detail level. Im sorry it does not work for you, but your limiting yourself by hardware, and there is nothing we can do about 3 year old video card. Most video cards today have a minimum 512MB of ram, if not 1gb. I highly suggest getting something like a Geforce 260. The price of video cards are very low at the moment.

[N2056]

With a 1.8 ghz anything I'd be way thankful I can run FSX at all!

[deimos256]

Before everyone bashes his hardware im experiencing similar issues with a product modeled by the same company with higher hardware, while its not top end im running a Intel core2 6600 at 2.4 with 2 gig ram and a Geforce 8800GTS 512mb.

[piperarcherpilot]

krazycolin,

Thank you very much for the money back offer, but, I wasnt looking for my money back. I bought it and if its truely a limitation of my hardware and others with state of the art machines are running it okay, then its on me. But I do sincerely appreciate the offer. (BTW, I bought it from PC Aviator in mid Sept.)

I am a little disappointed to not see any mention of its increased requirements over other ND products. Actually...maybe I've missed it, but are there any posted minimum or recommended specs anywhere? Maybe this is the thing to look into...

And, I didnt mean what I said about not buying any additional Milviz products to sound like I was taking a jab at you guys - I just meant apparently my machine cant hack them, so I learned a lesson. Again, visually, the Huey is a stunning work of art. But all is not lost...because...

I have good news! I found an unlikely workaround! :applause:

I was playing around with more settings, and somewhere along the process I unchecked the box regarding aircraft casting shadows on the ground. And, I still cant believe it, but it got rid of the majority of my issues! Every once in a while theres a micro stutter, but its holding a steady framerate near 20 fps! Others who are suffering from what I was may want to look into this as a 'fix' of sorts.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/PiperArcherPilot/Untitled-5.jpg

So, shadows were the issue?! How can that be? Ideas? Any possible fixes/patches for us lower end spec users?

Thanks again for the replies everyone.

PS
With a 1.8 ghz anything I'd be way thankful I can run FSX at all!

Like I said several times now, it does just fine. But, thanks for that tidbit N2056.

And Gibbage,

I am thinking about upgrading my machine to a newer model here in the next year. I'm well aware its starting to show its age :(. So the GeForce 260 is the way to go, huh? I'll look into it. Thanks.

Piper

[Gibbage]

It all depends on your budget, and what your looking for. GeForce 260 is a cheep but powerful card. One of the better ones around 150$ for FSX. FSX in general seems rather GeForce friendly. If you want a really powerful card, I suggest getting the ATI 5800 series and 3 monitors, but thats going to cost around $1000+ just for the video card and monitors, and thats not including the PC to run it. What price range are you looking at? Also, im glad you were able to get acceptable framerates.

[N2056]

I offered that 'tidbit' based on personal experience. Sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way. With all the possible hardware combinations out there I am always amazed that this stuff works at all!
Ground shadows are a well known performance hit. For many years (long before FSX) I lived with them disabled in order to have a flyable sim until I built a FSX specific rig 6 months ago.

I'm glad you have it working better!

[harleyman]

Ati.....lol

[piperarcherpilot]

Wow, I just spent the past 20 minutes flying the Huey around Ant's new Austrailia sceneries, and this helicopter is simply amazing. Beautiful work, Milviz, and Nemeth's. I just cant believe that my computer was brought to its knees by ground shadows - never noticed an issue before this purchase! I've known self-shadowing was a major killer of frames, but not ground shadows. It went from an unflyable frustration to another keeper for a long time. Odd...anyway...glad its working now too.

So, krazycolin, is it the number of parts casting a shadow thats causing the trouble maybe? If so, any idea if a 'patch' to remedy the ground shadow issue for us 'troubled users' would be feasible?

Gibbage, my budget right now is not up to my goal, but in a few months I'll be willing to spend maybe 1200 for the whole system...so while that ATI 3 monitor setup would make me drool for sure, its certainly not something I can justify. I'll probably look into the 260.

And N2056...sorry for my overly snappy response. I understand what you were trying to say now...and I agree! Its amazing how different similar spec'd systems can actually be. I guess I'm lucky.

Piper

[N2056]

:ernae:

[krazycolin]

Sorry mate, we're not intending to do anymore patches on the Huey.

We are, however, watching our poly count very closely in the coming models. We'll do better every time!

glad you got it working up to par... (and that you like our stuff) (he likes it, he likes it)

kc.

[djscoo]

With a 1.8 ghz anything I'd be way thankful I can run FSX at all!

I used to run FSX on a 1.64 ghz Core 2 duo with all slider middle of the road, and held 19fps steady (a few stutters here and there but certainly flyable). This was with a geforce 6400 graphics card too! :isadizzy:

[calypsos]

I run a GeForce 9400GT card, it was a real budget buy, but runs FSX pretty well, only dropping FRs when I use a lot of REX HD clouds.

I will try turning off the shadow too, (it is almost invisible in FSX SP2 anyway) as an experiment on all system hungry models.