Berlin Wall

[rayrey10]

Just finished reading this article on Yahoo and it's very interesting to say the least. I was in my teen when the Berlin was felled, and thought it was just like the beginning of the article says "The world believes Ronald Reagan, Mikhail Gorbachev or peaceful protests brought down the Berlin Wall". Guess I was wrong, and so were my history textbooks. Wow, what a great mistake for the people of East Germany.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125597721400194603.html?mod=yhoofront

[cheezyflier]

i believe the term is "revisionist history"

[BurningBeard]

Kind of makes me think of the survey of College Professors that think Calvin Coolidge was the best US President. After all he had been a College Professor before being president.

Also I have read that David Hasselhoff claims to be instrumental in the fall of the Berlin Wall because of his music, or what ever ego driven claim he was promoting.

Beard

[Quicksand]

I'm just glad it's down. My mother was German, and I spent five years there (Berlin) as a boy.. To hear the stories of families fragmented by this thing was like a lead weight on my young heart...... Think of the families who were seperated by this wall... One of the most tragic innovations of the Cold War.... Anyone who had the opportunity to see Checkpoint Charlie while the wall was still there, I'm sure, shares my feelings... I wish my Mom had lived long enough to see it come down... God rest her soul..

[Wild Bill Kelso]

You want my two cents?

I was born in West-Berlin in 1966.
The GDR (and even East-Berlin) was a foreign country to me. I frequently visited it (wasn't too easy for a citizen of West-Berlin...), although I hadn't any relatives there. Just for touristical purposes.
These were very instructive visits, I came to know interesting people but I never considered them as fellow countrymen. We pretty much shared the same language, but anything else was different. The GDR seemed like some shabby kind of Austria or Switzerland to me...

In 1989/1990, I felt like the unification of both german states came too quick. It took some time to recognize that there wasn't any reasonable alternative to it.
It wasn't a re-unification (as some said), for these two countries, both constituted in 1949, never were one. In the following years, something new, something european was developed, related to both directions, east and west.

And now?
Now I live in the eastern part of the city, sharing my life with a marvellous woman born in East-Berlin.

Live isn't too bad now... :icon_lol:

Cheers,
Markus.

[Quicksand]

Wow, Markus.. That's point of view I hadn't even considered, I guess because all my Mom's impressions were of Germany before the wall went up. You and I were there at the same time.. I was there from '69 until '75.

[cheezyflier]

You want my two cents?




coolest avatar currently on the board. a great movie

[Bjoern]

Reporter asks an uncomfortable question, gets an interpretable answer, west german television interprets the best into this answer, sends breaking news, east-germans watch that news, storm to the checkpoints, guards can't handle the masses and don't have any orders and thus give in at one point, wall falls. End of story.

If you want, you can call the events of the 9th of november one of the biggest accidents in history.

Intersting tidbit:
The checkpoint at Bornholmer Strasse was the first one to be opened. We used to live half a kilometer away from it and my parents decided to take turns in "going over" because of me. Just to make sure that I didn't accidentially become an orphan in case the checkpoint got closed again.
So instead of booze and party all my parents could do was have a quick west-german coffee. :icon_lol:

I personally don't remember the 9th, but I got vague memories of an anti-StaSi demonstration in 1990 and the reunion celebrations.

I kind of wish that I could have seen a bit more from the GDR. According to my parents and relatives it wasn't the worst place to live as long as you played by the rules.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

...Intersting tidbit:... Just to make sure that I didn't accidentially become an orphan in case the checkpoint got closed again. So instead of booze and party all my parents could do was have a quick west-german coffee. :icon_lol:

Cool!
My madam spent this evening slightly different: She fell asleep :sleep: just before the masses started to run to Bornholmer Straße and woke up the next morning in a slightly re-shaped country...

My "November 9th story" goes like this:
That morning, I packed my car (see pic below) with some colleagues and we went to East-Berlin for a sightseeing trip. In the afternoon, when checking out at Bornholmer Straße, everything was business-as-usual. The guys from the border-patrol thoroughly examined my bus to make sure that no GDR-citizen was hiding in the tank or ashtray...
When I came home, Schabowski's press conference just got started.


According to my parents and relatives it wasn't the worst place to live as long as you played by the rules.
That's what my lady also says!
But apparently, these rules needed to be changed...

Grüße,
Markus.

[rayrey10]

Quicksand, Markus & Bjoern,

Thanks sharing your stories. History should be taught the way it reallly happened not the politically correct way, or the most "romantic" way, or with prejudice.

When I was a kid my Dad was stationed at Ledward Barrcks in Schweinfurt and I remember taking a school trip to Berlin. I don't remember much but I do remember that the GDR looked "cold" and sort of unpleasant (no offense intended, just the view of an 11 year old American kid). I'm sure it had more to do with all of the stories that we had heard about the "Big Bad Soviets" and all of their allies, and how the East Germans had no freedoms and every facet of their life was controlled by the government, etc., etc. This was around 1983 or 1984 so the Cold War was still at it's height, and we too were being taught our version of history.

Another thing I remember is seeing the biggest German Shepherds I've ever seen. They belong to the GDR border guards. Them things were the size of horses and looked mean as hell...again the view of an 11 year old kid.

Ray

[Bjoern]

That's what my lady also says!
But apparently, these rules needed to be changed...

My mother still thinks that a reformed GDR with a liberal economy (kind of what you can observe in SE Asia nowaday) could have worked out as well.

I think so too, but then again...we've been one country for centuries, why voluntarily choose to stay seperated?



I don't remember much but I do remember that the GDR looked "cold" and sort of unpleasant (no offense intended, just the view of an 11 year old American kid).

None taken, I also find it quite dull and grey when looking at old photos. It was even worse in autumn and winter.

The government didn't care much for clean and shiny streets throughout the country, but only where money was to be made (later, near the end of Honecker's presidency).
Landmarks, especially churches and other stuff that wasn't "socialist enough" (castles and just about everything else that reminded of an inequal society) were a thorn in the regime's eye and in the 60s, it went on a literal "bomb run" and blew up many already war torn churches and castles, while leaving those that weren't on the verge of collapse into decay.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtschloss,_Berlin

And (more local):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wismar

The 80 m high tower church of St Mary (Marienkirche) is the only remainder of the original Brick Gothic edifice, built in the first half of the 13th century. It suffered heavy damage in World War II, and was deliberately destroyed in 1960 under the East German Communist government.


The elegant cruciform church of St George (St Georgen-Kirche) dates from the first half of the 13th century. It was destroyed in World War II and rebuilt in 1990.



I'm sure it had more to do with all of the stories that we had heard about the "Big Bad Soviets" and all of their allies, and how the East Germans had no freedoms and every facet of their life was controlled by the government, etc., etc. This was around 1983 or 1984 so the Cold War was still at it's height, and we too were being taught our version of history. Wasn't '83 Ronnie Raygun's era and another round in the ever so costly arms race with tensions at yet another peak?
No wonder the big red scare was once again very trendy at that time.

What I find funny is that, in a PM exchange with a well known (ex-)member here, he really wanted me to thank the United States that I can now live in a united and free country and that Bush Sr was the only one responsible for the fall of the wall.

I've really read a lot of dodgy points of view about historical events, but this was just way beyond...everything...:kilroy:

Then again, the Geoge Bush administration (!) *did* have a big part in the reunification process by the signing of the "2 plus 4 treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Ger many)" by then-secretary of foreign affairs James Baker.

Yet, the only ones in my eyes who should be credited for achieving this huge historical event are the citizens of the GDR, who took to the streets for a bit more freedom, even if it meant that family members had to stare each other into the eyes during those demonstrations. And I don't want to know how it feels to face your father, mother, brother or sister while knowing, that you, as a conscript, have to beat them up, throw tear gas at them or even shoot at them if the order is given. This also worked the other was 'round if fathers were policemen.
And still, the risks were taken and the people succeeded. Peacefully. Awesome!


Another thing I remember is seeing the biggest German Shepherds I've ever seen. They belong to the GDR border guards. Them things were the size of horses and looked mean as hell...again the view of an 11 year old kid.Could be very true. After all, they were used to keep the borders sanitized of all "traitors" and "imperialist saboteurs". :kilroy:


If anyone is interested in some amusing looks back into the GDR days, i suggest those two movies:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177242/

They give you a good idea about general life in the GDR and '89/'90, but don't take them too seriously.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Moin, Björn!


My mother still thinks that a reformed GDR with a liberal economy (kind of what you can observe in SE Asia nowaday) could have worked out as well.
Maybe it could have. But we'll never know...
We'll have to keep in mind that the economical base of the 1990's GDR was different from Hongkong's. The GDR's infrastructure was ruined and their products (although not everything was of a poor quality!) could not have survived in the international competition. I doubt whether a reformed economy had made the "GDR version 2" to an independent and successful state.

But it's useless to pay a thought about that:
The treaty of unification of 1990 ("Einigungvertrag") was negotiated by democratically legitimated representatives of both states, so the affiliation of the GDR to the FRG has to be understood as the uttered will of the majority of the GDR's citizens, although there was no national referendum about this question.


...but then again...we've been one country for centuries...
I must object on this:
The Deutsches Reich as a confederation of federal states (Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony etc.) was found in 1871 and it existed until 1945, that's just 74 years...


... in a PM exchange with a well known (ex-)member here, he really wanted me to thank the United States that I can now live in a united and free country and that Bush Sr was the only one responsible for the fall of the wall.
That's ridiculous and sad at the same time! :isadizzy:
The four Allies agreed to the unification, but it was - I completely agree to you - the people of the GDR who forced it!


If anyone is interested in some amusing looks back into the GDR days, i suggest those two movies:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177242/
Excellent choice! :applause:
May I add this one:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061017/

Cheers,
Markus.

[aeronca1]

Thanks for the suggestions. I own a copy of Good Bye Lenin!, but will now track down the other two. I lived in Finland during that time and often travelled into the then Soviet Block. I remember East Berlin in particular and the GDR in general as a very dull drab landscape. Limited observations for sure, but the impression remains.

I remember Soviet cities as very clean compared to what they became after the "fall" of communism, but as I have not returned in many years that could have been a temporary happenstance.

In all, my impressions are very much like the above. Life in the "Eastern Block" was not as bleak as is often portrayed in the West. Yes, rules were strict, but in many ways I personally think life was better for the lower classes and the poor there than it was and still is here.

[Bjoern]

Moin, Björn!

N'Abend Markus. :icon_lol:


Maybe it could have. But we'll never know...
We'll have to keep in mind that the economical base of the 1990's GDR was different from Hongkong's. The GDR's infrastructure was ruined and their products (although not everything was of a poor quality!) could not have survived in the international competition. I doubt whether a reformed economy had made the "GDR version 2" to an independent and successful state.Sure, it was in worse state than many of the western economical experts anticipated when they first inspected the factories, however just shutting everything down without even giving it a fair chance to prove itself wasn't the best way to go and attributed a lot to the negative perception of the reunion in the GDR (strongest with long-term unemployed people).

In my eyes, the whole unproductivity of east german companies was caused by the whole central planning system which basically decided what was needed and what wasn't. Market demands? Realism? No way.

They should have just put some advisors over there which then helped the companies in getting on the "free market" track and done.

I'm sure there was a niche for east german products. Even if it meant that Trabis were only manufactured for export to poorer countries. Heck, I've seen thirty year old east german machinery in west german companies still in use and my uni is still using machines manufactured back then.

Even the Interflug could have been turned into a profitable airline within a few years, but Monopolyhansa saw it as too big of a threat and had it shut down.

Well, to make a long story short, the acts in terms of the economical reunification were mostly nothing short of criminal and short sighted.



But it's useless to pay a thought about that:
The treaty of unification of 1990 ("Einigungvertrag") was negotiated by democratically legitimated representatives of both states, so the affiliation of the GDR to the FRG has to be understood as the uttered will of the majority of the GDR's citizens, although there was no national referendum about this question.Yeah, I think no one really knew that the whole affair turned out to be more complicated than they imagined.



I must object on this:
The Deutsches Reich as a confederation of federal states (Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony etc.) was found in 1871 and it existed until 1945, that's just 74 years... Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nationen? ;)



That's ridiculous and sad at the same time! :isadizzy:I know. The pinnacle was the accusation that I was a communist just because I didn't agree with him. :icon_lol:



May I add this one:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061017/Wait, wasn't this one banned in the GDR?

If so, it might be a realisitic depiction. :d

Oh, and another one, albeit not well received by the audiences:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424297/
My dad found it fairly accurate though.



I remember Soviet cities as very clean compared to what they became after the "fall" of communism, but as I have not returned in many years that could have been a temporary happenstance.

Well, it was the other way around here. I guess it's always good to have a "rich uncle in the west". :d


Yes, rules were strict, but in many ways I personally think life was better for the lower classes and the poor there than it was and still is here.I wouldn't say it was better per se for the lower classes. Rather that it was easier because the state took much more care of you than in a "free" country.
If you were from the higher middle class however, life got difficult especially in terms of career paths. Applicants from a working class family were generally preferred. If one part of your parents was a teacher or professor, game over. The only way out was serving three years as a border guard. Not the best job.

[rayrey10]

Thanks again fellas for the information. Now you see, that's how history should be taught, by people with first hand knowledge. :applause:

[rayrey10]

The History Channel is going to show a documentary titled "The Rise and Fall of the Berlin Wall" on November 7th at 10pm. I'll have to set my DVR.

[Quicksand]

Thanks for the HU, Ray. I'll be watching, too, if my call to arms:pop4: hasn't sounded...:applause:

[Toastmaker]

VERY interesting. Danke for the first-person accounts !

:icon29:

[Bjoern]

VERY interesting. Danke for the first-person accounts !

:icon29:

No problem! :)