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MM
October 17th, 2009, 14:19
In this thread, the Committee will post updates, clarifications, and modifications of the Rules, special rulings, and other news.

MM
October 17th, 2009, 14:21
Interim Update on Aircraft Eligibility, Speeds, and Reference Times.

The attached spreadsheets provide some additional aircraft evaluations. Please note that the Cessna 441 Conquest is undergoing further tests.

EasyEd
October 17th, 2009, 17:52
Hey All,

First Thank You committee for the 2 kts back on the Me 108.

Now just to be fair I'm also likely gonna fly the PC-12 in this event as I'm flying the Kodiak around the world. Anyway the reference speed for the PC-12 is 271 and I get 274 at 18,000 on my computer. So if you want a kt or two adjustment might be in order although at that speed the difference isn't so important as each kt is about 8 mins not 23 mins like in the 160 kt range of speed.

-Ed-

Willy
October 21st, 2009, 12:40
Just a couple of reminders.

If you like to fly with company, the MAPE server is open at mape.gotdns.org If you want to check first to see if anyone's on there the link is http://mape.gotdns.org/

If you don't like to take your chances at "death by chatbox", FlightSim has graciously allowed us to use their TeamSpeak server at 68.47.50.131:8768

I've been using the MAPE server for my flights and I'll have TS on when I resume flying this evening. (even if Mrs Willy does give me funny looks for talking to myself)

MM
October 21st, 2009, 20:00
Necessary Rules Clarification.

A question arises about the "Simulation Time" for team entries as opposed to solo entries. The rule intends that during a "local real life day" each sequential leg takes off after the previously completed leg--in "local simulation time." This means that a long sequence of legs may end up flying in darkness. At the beginning of a new "local real life day" the pilot may recommence his next leg at an arbitrary "local simulator time"--presumably early in the morning.

The ambiguity arises when the "local real life day" has a different meaning for different pilots on a team. The "local real life day" begins and ends at a different UTC for pilots living in Europe as opposed to California or Alaska.

The solution is to pick a single time zone for the team. You might pick UTC, for example. Or, if most pilots live in California and one in New York, you might pick Pacific Time instead. You may choose the "team local real life day" to suit your needs--but you must pick a single time zone.

srgalahad
October 25th, 2009, 22:46
Update on Aircraft Eligibility, Speeds, and Reference Times.

Eaglesoft Cessna/Columbia 400 has been tested and approved (238 KTAS) Updated spreadsheet attached.

MaddogK
October 27th, 2009, 06:44
Update on Aircraft Eligibility, Speeds, and Reference Times.



PLease retest the DA Cheyenne, I wasn't unable to duplicate those extremely optimistic test results on the latest sheet. Can you also confirm engine survivability when run at OVER redline to obtain those results ?

Thanks,

jkcook28
October 27th, 2009, 07:41
PLease retest the DA Cheyenne, I wasn't unable to duplicate those extremely optimistic test results on the latest sheet. Can you also confirm engine survivability when run at OVER redline to obtain those results ?

Thanks,

Those numbers are correct in the published flight testing parameters for weather settings. 270KTAS @ 18000. I've tested it myself 3 times. And, yes, it will survive with everything full forward; the only way to achieve that 270.:mixedsmi:

EasyEd
October 27th, 2009, 09:29
Hey All,

I can run test the DA Cheyenne in fs9 as well if desired - later today. The whole idea is to test aircraft going full out - not test them under "realistic" flying conditions. I can do that as it doesn't matter if the throttle sticks which it often does so I don't fly it alot.

-Ed-

MaddogK
October 27th, 2009, 09:55
Thanks Ed, I also will re-run the tests with duenna tracking to confirm my tests last night, but it makes NO sense to me to base the 'handicap' on a speed thats only achievable outside the normal operating envelope- ask teson how he feels to fly a plane handicapped at a speed thats maintainable for 10 minutes before his engine self destructs.

EasyEd
October 27th, 2009, 10:17
Hey All,

Maddogk I believe the issue is that most aircraft don't model engine damage at all and so are being flown throttle "firewalled" with people using fuel/range gauges and engine lean to fly far enough while not sacrificing too much speed. Is that real? No but it is a game and it is a race. Should fuel/range gauges be allowed in non-modern aircraft? That too is a good question.

Also the committee doesn't want aircraft that are too fast and it is their party so that is fine - so testing at max possible makes sense to me. As for aircraft with engine damage modeled - that would be interesting to see what conditions the committee would want that kind of plane tested under. Normal operating parameters is probably the best option - lots to think about here.

I'm sure the committee will be along to express their opinion meanwhile see what the Cheyenne gives you "firewalled". If necessary I can fly it later.

-Ed-

epwatson
October 27th, 2009, 10:22
Hopefully they don't ban my "fuel/range" guage.. Mine is a pen and paper.. :) fly between city A and city B that's 50 miles apart, i used 10 gallons of fuel to get ther so im getting 5 miles to the gallon. Thats how i work out my range.. nearly screwed it up on my leg from EGUN to LRBS in the Spartan.. I made it to austria and still had quite a bit of fuel left so i worked the numbers and i had just enuf to make it to Romania, and OMG I thought i was gonna sputter all the way down. :)

EasyEd
October 27th, 2009, 10:32
Hey All,


Hopefully they don't ban my "fuel/range" gauge.. Mine is a pen and paper..

LOL :icon_lol: Eamon nothing wrong with that at all.

I'm sure you see the basic issue - time "lost" going up and down versus flying farther slower. Getting that one right is one of the challenges for some. Others want to fly more "real".

-Ed-

Willy
October 27th, 2009, 11:09
I just don't push it on fuel. I take a guesstimate and add extra for safety. The flight planner will give an idea, but is not the most accurate thing in the world. I know the Twin Beech is good for about 800-850nm when pressed hard. So I try to keep my legs down to no more than 600nm to allow for headwinds or other unpleasantness. If you know your aircraft's approximate range, fuel shouldn't be an issue.

I've had the fuel status gauge installed as a pop up in the Beech for a couple of years now but rarely look at the thing as the readings constantly jump all over the place rendering it mostly useless. I'm going to replace it with something else I think.

Just don't expect me to get rid of the "8-track" aka Radio/CD gauge. One must retain some semblance of civilization.

arrvoo
October 27th, 2009, 11:46
Just don't expect me to get rid of the "8-track" aka Radio/CD gauge. One must retain some semblance of civilization.

Ah, that all depends on what music you play :)

srgalahad
October 27th, 2009, 12:08
First of all we're wandering off the "NOTAM" issue here. However it's a great discussion in itself and should find a thread of it's own about navigation, route and fuel planning (Not in the Racing forum but in the FS2004 or FSX forums so everyone sees it) and handicapping in general in the Racing Forum.
--------------------------------------------------------

As for the test/reports... The Committee has to use one universal standard to allow/disallow an aircraft. This was determined to be "Max speed at pertinent altitude as long as it's historically correct". There you get the spreadsheet.

From there each pilot has a choice of what to fly. If, after testing (not just reading the "read me") you find the aircraft cannot maintain the reported performance, then it's your choice whether that a/c is still competitive to your satisfaction. Certainly models that simulate damage etc. are likely to lose some desirability if that has a detrimental effect.

As for the accuracy of FS (or real) handicap racing, the real-world organizers had far more test data to use, and as time went on, more accurate and in-depth records (race after race) to calculate with. I fought hard to get a handicapping system in for this event (and can show the bruises :blind:), knowing that it wouldn't be perfect, but should demonstrate that FS racing can be handicapped.

Each event adds to the database of performance (think of all those Duenna reports we'll have!) and eventually we'll be able to almost guarantee our numbers work. We will have recorded speeds that can be applied to the next events (and probably reduce the 'unfairness' of some aircraft).

Should we factor in "normal performance" in a race? Not in all cases! Sometimes entrants will be willing to risk blown engines etc. For some events we can and will build rules that disallow "firewalled" operation (the Evita event was a step along that road). There are other steps going forward to make things like engine damage possible for all FS aircraft, or possible just monitor the excesses.

Should we build events that must be flown according to "the book"? I'm not being mean or rude when I say that most FS pilots, even after years of running the sim have much, if any concept about 75% power, fuel consumption, proper leaning techniques, allowances for speed or fuel in the climb, etc. Heck, look how much this event is challenging the navigational skills for most of us. Will we do it? Eventually I suspect so... it's all part of learning more about flight as opposed to the sim.

For now, some will get an advantage, some will lose out... but it's not like any of us are going to sacrifice horribly and most have made great strides in learning the fine points of aviation. Some have learned how to lean or fly proper altitudes for those few extra miles. Some have tested their aircraft to "dry tanks" to know a real limit of range and how much extra fuel is used climbing hills. If their curiousity makes a difference, more power to them!

For now, enjoy the event, the scenery, the camaraderie, the learning and if you don't win remember that we've given you an excuse to fill a lot of hours with your friends. :ernae:

As I said, let's carry this discussion on.. elsewhere.

Rob

MaddogK
October 27th, 2009, 17:12
I re-ran the test of the DA Cheyenne with duenna logging and was able to achieve a steady 270kts on a test flight to New York City from Chicago with 'calm' set as the weather theme when a strange thing happened, I turned the plane around and headed west and noticed my top speed was a MAX of 268kts and I only was able to re-achieve 270 after 100 gallons of fuel were used.

My initial request for a retest stemmed from a test flight from Chicago to Los Angeles last night under the same conditions and I could only get 267.5 kts @18k ft within 10 minutes after takeoff.

Seems this plane is faster west to east then from east to west. I'll run a lengthier test later, but attached is the duenna log from tonights test. I know I'm quibbling about a couple of kts, but as Ed pointed out- a couple KPH over 10000 miles ends up hours in lost/gained time.

Willy
October 27th, 2009, 19:12
Anyone wanting to fly into or thru LGIR in Crete be advised that the NDB "HER" frequency 431.0 at that location is one of the frequencies that the default DC-3 radio won't pick up.

MM
October 29th, 2009, 05:07
Required Crew and Payload.

Just a reminder for everyone. Here is the rule on required crew and payload.

Pilot and Crew. The aircraft need carry neither passengers nor baggage. The pilot and the co-pilot/navigator must be on board, but other crew members are optional. (Single-seaters carry the pilot. For aircraft that make no provision for crewmembers or weights, this rule is meaningless.)
The standard weight for a crewmember is 170 pounds. Thus, the typical entrant will carry a pilot and co-pilot or at least 340 pounds of crew. Where appropriate, you may add a radio operator and/or navigator. Single-seat aircraft, obviously, carry only the pilot.

MM
November 2nd, 2009, 13:41
Danger Lurks at Altitude

Just a reminder to everyone about the hard ceilings of 18,000 feet (Modern General Aviation) and 15,000 feet (Golden age). The rules provide:


Flights for which the Duenna records an altitude exceeding the hard ceiling (General Aviation 18,000'; Golden Age 15,000') will automatically require the pilot to repeat the flight from the original departure airport—without penalty. (Pilots, at their own option, may choose to accept a penalty and go forward without repeating the flight. The penalty is 1 hour on the first violation and 3 hours for each subsequent violation.)
The rule does not penalize violations--it merely cancels invalid legs.

Note that the hard ceiling indicates that you want to fly somewhat below 18,000 feet to give yourself a safety margain against sudden fluctuations in atmospheric pressure and the turbulence of storms. (You can be thrown hundreds of feet above or below your cruising altitude--almost without notice. Danger lurks especially for those who hand the controls to "Otto," the autopilot.)

If you want to cruise at a high altitude in the Modern General Aviation category, then you will have to judge the tradeoff between a high speed cruising altitude and the margin of safety that you need. Higher altitudes imply risk.

We have had two instances of pilots' being unaware of busting (or almost busting) the hard ceiling. Some caution is warranted.

Willy
November 4th, 2009, 13:46
All pilots flying in the area of Yangon on ADF be advised that to the NE of Yangon, there are two high ranged (75nm) NDBs that are withing range of each other and share the same frequency (265.0).

I was flying to one of them (BGO) and and my ADF picked up on the other which made figuring out where to go next somewhat confusing when the needle points to a completely different heading than what DR says you should be on.

EdGeneer
November 4th, 2009, 13:55
All pilots flying in the area of Yangon on ADF be advised that to the NE of Yangon, there are two high ranged (75nm) NDBs that are withing range of each other and share the same frequency (265.0).

I was flying to one of them (BGO) and and my ADF picked up on the other which made figuring out where to go next somewhat confusing when the needle points to a completely different heading than what DR says you should be on.

Perfect opportunity to brush up on our morse code identifiers ;)

Willy
November 4th, 2009, 14:57
I never got no secret decoding ring in my cracker jacks :d

PRB
November 4th, 2009, 15:04
A timely discovery, since I'm headed for those parts now. Thanks, Willy!

Dangerousdave26
November 4th, 2009, 15:47
All pilots flying in the area of Yangon on ADF be advised that to the NE of Yangon, there are two high ranged (75nm) NDBs that are withing range of each other and share the same frequency (265.0).

I was flying to one of them (BGO) and and my ADF picked up on the other which made figuring out where to go next somewhat confusing when the needle points to a completely different heading than what DR says you should be on.

:isadizzy: That must have been one of the ones that I was sleeping past. :icon_lol:

MM
November 12th, 2009, 09:41
Hi all,

Just a reminder that we have, in essence, five contests. They are:


Golden Age Speed Race.
Golden Age Handicap Race.
Modern General Aviation Speed Race.
Modern General Aviation Handicap Race.
Precision Flying. (Both classes of aircraft qualify.)

Note that an entry may win either the Speed Race or the Handicap Race in any given class. This forced choice mimicks that of the 1934 MacRoberston--it nicely spreads the rewards. Pilots will make their choices shortly after the official end of the the competition.

The pilots choose the Speed or Handicap division in order of their finish in the Speed Race. For example, Tom (Vicious) seems about to win both the Speed and Handicap Races in the Golden Age class. He must choose which one he will win. That choice having been made, then the second finisher in the Speed Race (at the moment Bry) chooses Speed or Handicap. And so on within the Golden Age class.

The same sequence applies for the Modern General Aviation class as well.

The Race Committee will award 3 prizes in each contest: Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. Any entry is eligible for only one prize in each racing class. (Though note that a pilot may be on several entries.)

All pilots are also eligible for the Precision Flying prizes.

Some pilots may discover that they are competitive when they at first thought they were not. Some close scrutiny of the aircraft capabilities, actual performance, and the prizes available may prove interesting.

Mike (for the Committee)

MM
November 14th, 2009, 15:59
To help the Committee figure out the weather settings on Duenna, please announce something like the following about your weather engine.

"Using MSFS FS9 Weather Engine"
"Using MSFS FSX Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky 6.5 Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky X Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky Advanced Weather Engine"
"Using REX Weather Engine"

We are trying to sort out things for future events. You're giving us your weather engine would help.

Thanks,
Mike (for the Committee)

arrvoo
November 14th, 2009, 17:17
To help the Committee figure out the weather settings on Duenna, please announce something like the following about your weather engine.

"Using MSFS FS9 Weather Engine"
"Using MSFS FSX Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky 6.5 Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky X Weather Engine"
"Using Active Sky Advanced Weather Engine"
"Using REX Weather Engine"

We are trying to sort out things for future events. You're giving us your weather engine would help.

Thanks,
Mike (for the Committee)

In this thread Mike?
If so:

"Using Active Sky Advanced Weather Engine"

Highmike
November 14th, 2009, 17:53
I use MSFS FSX weather for racing. ASX is nice for a change, but too risky for racing.

Milton Shupe
November 14th, 2009, 18:23
"Using MSFS FS9 Weather Engine"

EdGeneer
November 14th, 2009, 18:35
MSFS FS9 Weather engine here....

Great Ozzie
November 14th, 2009, 18:53
Using Active Sky Advanced Weather Engine

teson1
November 14th, 2009, 19:31
Using Active Sky 6.5 Weather Engine

Spookster67
November 14th, 2009, 22:34
FSX weather engine.

Willy
November 14th, 2009, 22:48
default FS9 Real Wx with 15 minute updates.

Vicious
November 14th, 2009, 23:03
Default FS9 Wx with 15 minute update.

donlimpio
November 15th, 2009, 02:39
Default FS9 Wx with 15 minute update.

PRB
November 15th, 2009, 03:24
FSX, REX 2.0 weather engine with "Real Time" weather enabled.

Dangerousdave26
November 15th, 2009, 03:39
Default FS9 and FSX weather w/15 minute update. Also as an enhancement the jkcook28 Weather Enhancer Installed. Formally known as JKC28WE.

Thanks John for this Wonderful add on that provides Head Winds where ever you fly. :applause:

Get your copy today at www.jkc28we.com

Don't go anywhere today with out Head Winds...

Strong Head Winds.

some users of this add on have reported that it only works effectively when flying on line with jkcook28.

other users have report once installed there is no way to (blankety blank blank) shut this thing off or remove it.

Finally if you find your head winds turn to strong tail winds 10 minutes away from your destination airport...

Get used to it or change your destination. That way you will be sure to get your head winds back.

JKC28WE Enhance Your Weather Today!

MaddogK
November 15th, 2009, 05:17
Default Fs9 wx

PRB
November 15th, 2009, 05:42
I think I'm running the addon from John as well. I wonder how he installed it on my computer! :icon_lol:

Skyking53
November 15th, 2009, 05:52
I'm using MSFS FSX Weather Engine, 15 min. updates.

jkcook28
November 15th, 2009, 07:35
Default FS9 and FSX weather w/15 minute update. Also as an enhancement the jkcook28 Weather Enhancer Installed. Formally known as JKC28WE.

Thanks John for this Wonderful add on that provides Head Winds where ever you fly. :applause:

Get your copy today at www.jkc28we.com (http://www.jkc28we.com)

Don't go anywhere today with out Head Winds...

Strong Head Winds.

some users of this add on have reported that it only works effectively when flying on line with jkcook28.

other users have report once installed there is no way to (blankety blank blank) shut this thing off or remove it.

Finally if you find your head winds turn to strong tail winds 10 minutes away from your destination airport...

Get used to it or change your destination. That way you will be sure to get your head winds back.

JKC28WE Enhance Your Weather Today!

You're welcome Dave. My small contribution to the flightsim world.:d

I use: "Using MSFS FS9 Weather Engine"

srgalahad
November 15th, 2009, 08:33
:wiggle:LOL :wiggle:

Actually, I think MM was hoping that we'd all just include the wx type in our Duenna posts...
However, it's nice to see people at least read the NOTAM thread :icon_lol:.

We've had a lot of discussion about wx settings & Duenna and can see there is the potential for unwanted errors showing up. The obvious concern here is that we are running long legs where wind is crucial to our success and want to minimize any doubts, errors or incorrect settings.

If you're using one of the enhanced environment add-ons (AS, ASX, REX, etc,) they may lead you to believe they are collecting 'real-world wx' when they are depending on the user to select/set it first so be careful out there! (any lengthy discussion should probably slip over to a dedicated thread).

As for the jkc28we 'enhancement', I can verify that even being in contact with John on TeamSpeak may cause instant Tail-to-Headwind corrections to occur. Flying in close proximity to him online may enhance the enhancement to a point where you may never see tailwinds again. :173go1:
Thanks to Dave for pointing out this concern.

Rob

Willy
November 15th, 2009, 11:31
I'm thinking John's wx enhancement might be viral as I seem to have it as well.

mickj300
November 15th, 2009, 12:55
Default FS9 Wx with 15 minute update.

salt_air
November 15th, 2009, 17:22
Default FS9 Wx with 15 minute update......:mixedsmi:

epwatson
November 16th, 2009, 09:03
Active Sky Advanced for me in FS9.

However with ASA acting up on me I've been using Active Sky 6.5 for a couple legs.

MM
November 30th, 2009, 11:15
The Official Deadline for the event is November 30 at 1800 UTC. (The time has just passed.)

It appears that we have three or four pilots in Australia (or just about to Oz) so we shall extend that deadline a day or so to give those coming down the final stretch a chance to finish.

If you are intending to finish shortly and need more than a day or so, please let the Committee know.

mickj300
November 30th, 2009, 11:55
Thanks Mike, I thought the deadline was midnight UTC (my mistake) so rushed back from work to get the last one in. It's been hard juggling this event with the DC3 Airways one as well as fitting in real life!

ETA Melbourne is 23:50UTC today.