Christopher Columbus Day!

[Chacha]

Reminder:

Today is Columbus Day! :medals:

A working Holiday! :running:

http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/93086?fp=1

Banks are closed... :isadizzy:

Post Office are closed... :isadizzy:

[Railrunner130]

One thing that has baffled me for a long time is that Leif Ericson discovered America. The holiday was originally Leif Ericson day. Where the heck did Columbus horn into it and steal all the credit and glory?

[OBIO]

Neither Christopher nor Leif discovered the New World. There were people living here THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years before either one of those Caucasians were born. From a purely scientific and historical stand point, the people who truly discovered the New World were of Asian descent as there were two major migrations of people into the New World. One migration saw people from the northern part of Asia travel across the Bering Land Bridge and into what is now North America. Before that even, people from the southern parts of Asia travel BY SEA into what is now South America and spread out up through Central America. Additionally, recent mitocondrial DNA testing on the indigineous peoples of North, Central and South America has found a third origin of early American peoples.....Eastern Spain! About 10,000 years ago some people from Eastern Spain came to the New World to buy some moccasins or something and decided to stay and hang out with the native people of this continent.

So, there should not be a US holiday celebrating Christopher Columbus's discovery of the New World. Nor should there be a holiday for the Vikings discovering the New World. Long before these two claim jumpers arrived....some estimates range as far back as 50,000 years...there were people here...a great many people who spoke a unknown number of languages, practiced an unknown number of religions, followed an unknown number of social patterns and rules.....all unknown now because the White Man pretty much destroyed every shred of the civilization that was thriving when they came here to this "newly" discovered land.

From the beginning of the 1800s to the beginning of the 1900s, nearly 90% of the North American native poplulation was wiped out...an estimated 9 million Native People killed for their land, their resources and because they would not shuffle off peacefully to some crappy corner of their once proud range and practice a religion that was being forced down their throats. And the history books call Hitler a maniacal murderer....but they call Abraham Lincoln a great President.

_________

Yeah, I am half Native American (Crow and Blackfoot from my father's side and Cherokee from my mother's side) and this supposed holiday really gets my blood boiling every year.

OBIO

[Piglet]

I knew Obio would show up on this thread:jump:
I always called Indians Sibierian-Americans.
Humans are not indiginous to North America.
Hey, that's just the way I see it

[OBIO]

And as far as the banks being closed today...well that sucks too! This stupid "holiday" is delaying a direct deposit that was supposed to have been in the bank on Saturday...now it won't hit until Tuesday. Currently, my bank account holds that stately sum of $2.12....and Deb and I have been craving Bob Evans biscuits and gravy for three days.

OBIO

[mariereid]

Well, up here it's Thanksgiving Day. Don't worry to much about who was here first fellas, just be happy that we are here now. Gotta go pick some cranberries, it's turkey time!

[jmig]

I knew Obio would show up on this thread:jump:
I always called Indians Sibierian-Americans.
Humans are not indiginous to North America.
Hey, that's just the way I see it

Well, if you want to go far enough back, humans aren't indigenous to anywhere but Africa. Early humans migrated northward into Asia Minor and then Europe.

Others have claimed to have flown before the Wright Brothers, according to Bette Midler, Philippe de Brassiere did not invent the Bra, Otto Titzling did so. The point is that often times the real inventor, discoverer,or doer, is lost to history.

What Columbus did, would have been done by someone eventually. The genocides that followed would have still happened. I believe to erase Columbus day is to hide from what happened to the existing cultures, already living in the "New World."

Ignorance and greed drive genocide. We can't do much about greed. We can do something about ignorance. Rewriting history to make it "nicer" or further an agenda only makes ignorance permanent.

I say honor the man for what he did. Recognize what the White European culture has done to change the world, both good and bad. Let's use it to educate ourselves on history and not pretend it didn't happen.

[Helldiver]

- And I always thought Bob Evans Bisquits and Gravy was dog food

[OBIO]

Woof woof...I'm freaking hungry for Bob Evan Biscuits and Gray!

OBIO

[Terry]

If it were not for Columbus we wouldn't have a single indian casino to blow our money at. :USA-flag:

[OBIO]

If it were not for Columbus we wouldn't have a single indian casino to blow our money at. :USA-flag:

Well, that makes it alright then. Nothing like gambling in an Indian Casino....other than buying tax-free cigarettes on Indian Reservations and lying to the government about doing so.

OBIO

[Lionheart]

I always called Indians Sibierian-Americans.
Humans are not indiginous to North America.
Hey, that's just the way I see it


Funny you mention that.

When my Swedish penpal came over from Stockholm, she wanted to see our Heard museum in downtown Phoenix. We got there and she was so amazed. She had heard about this but wanted to see it herself.

Seems the exact same corn grinding tools, blankets with same colors and cloth weave patterns are in Sweden as well. The Navajo seemed to really get around. How they could get to Arizona from Stockholm is beyond me.

The theory is that the northern hemisphere was iced over, making it possible for people to migrate accross the polar cap.

Now, did they come here? Or did they go to Sweden? Are we surrounded by Swedes that have gambling casinos? :d


I think its a cool holiday myself. Good for the kids to know about the rich history of our cultures. Whats wrong with Holidays anyways? Gives us a day off to play.

:d

[N2056]

All I know is I got a paid day off. Thanks Chris! :d

[cheezyflier]

it's the popular thing to blame the white guy for every crappy thing that ever happened. well, if things were so great before we got here, then why don't everybody who doesn't like it, go back to the way things were before we arrived? they can stop wearing modern clothes, and living in clean modern conditions, stop using modern medicine, and go live in a tent somewhere, and use stone tools, and live off the land until they die at about 45 if they are lucky enough to live that long. most of the complainers couldn't survive for a month that way if they had too. that's the truth, face it or don't. and i'll give you another truth, too. hundreds of years ago a bunch of white people did some messed up stuff. it wasn't me, or anyone i ever met. it wasn't anybody in my family tree cause they weren't even here then. there aint a snowballs chance in hell i'm gonna feel bad or guilty about it.

[Terry]

it's the popular thing to blame the white guy for every crappy thing that ever happened. well, if things were so great before we got here, then why don't everybody who doesn't like it, go back to the way things were before we arrived? they can stop wearing modern clothes, and living in clean modern conditions, stop using modern medicine, and go live in a tent somewhere, and use stone tools, and live off the land until they die at about 45 if they are lucky enough to live that long. most of the complainers couldn't survive for a month that way if they had too. that's the truth, face it or don't. and i'll give you another truth, too. hundreds of years ago a bunch of white people did some messed up stuff. it wasn't me, or anyone i ever met. it wasn't anybody in my family tree cause they weren't even here then. there aint a snowballs chance in hell i'm gonna feel bad or guilty about it.

Well said!

[brad kaste]

...To put it in a certain context in the times of Columbus, Cortez, and Pizzaro,....and other conquistadors that followed them,....they thought they were doing the right thing. However, it was pure greed. To enslave and conquer the Native Americans, and remove as much gold asap. They also brought diseases to the Caribbean Islands and mainland as well that pretty much wiped out many tribes. What they did was cruel, inhuman,.....and crude at best. Basically,...crimes against humanity.
Much like the whaling ship companies of the 18th and 19th centuries, all thought....."what's the big deal,.....there's plenty of whales out there for all,.....we're getting rich plus we're providing oil for the lamps and lubrication needed throughout the country." Thank heavens for the 'discovery' of petroleum. Well,...that's another story in itself......

[Terry]

...To put it in a certain context in the times of Columbus, Cortez, and Pizzaro,....and other conquistadors that followed them,....they thought they were doing the right thing. However, it was pure greed. To enslave and conquer the Native Americans, and remove as much gold asap. They also brought diseases to the Caribbean Islands and mainland as well that pretty much wiped out many tribes. What they did was cruel, inhuman,.....and crude at best. Basically,...crimes against humanity.
Much like the whaling ship companies of the 18th and 19th centuries, all thought....."what's the big deal,.....there's plenty of whales out there for all,.....we're getting rich plus we're providing oil for the lamps and lubrication needed throughout the country." Thank heavens for the 'discovery' of petroleum. Well,...that's another story in itself......

I don't see it as greed, I see it as making a living. Not much different than the gold rush to California and Alaska.
I don't believe they had any bilological weapons labs in the 1400's therefore they had no idea the local population would contract diseases for which they had no immunity.

[brad kaste]

Hey Terry,...I do agree with you on a few points. For the whalers,...it was a making a living. Not greed. It employed many New Englanders during those times. And for sure,....the lack of immunity for the indigenous populations persons from the brought over diseases was not intentional. But I'm sure the early Conquistadors didn't lose much sleep over the native losses due to disease.
As far as the gold goes,....Cortez and Piazzro basically snatched the native gold artifacts. This is greed. Ceremonial and religious objects. It got melted down and then shipped back to Spain. In the Gold Rush of California,....that was dug out of the hill sides or from mines,....not taken from the local populace.

[Moparmike]

Whatever you choose to call today (in South Dakota the holiday name has been officially changed to Native American Day)......

......Be careful with letting the discussion get too political.

[Henry]

Oh and i thought it was Mon Day:isadizzy::icon_lol:
i think just no mail here today
and a couple of banks closed
other than that its just Monday
started out with my transmission failing this morning
had to get towed to the shop
just got worse from then
Happy Columbus day
and Monday
H

[stiz]

ok you guys have me totaly confused now .. is it thanks giveing, columbus day, paid day off, native american day ... or is it just monday??

and you folks call us crazy! :isadizzy: :icon_lol: :ernae:

[Tako_Kichi]

I guess it depends where you live...lol. Up here in Canukistan it's Thanksgiving Day, although there was no turkey for us....we had a ham joint instead.

[AckAck]

For me it's Monday, but then again, I'm not hankering for Bob Evans.

Were there no diseases that the Native Americans carried that the evil invaders had no immunity to? You always hear it one way, but never the other. Or, were the natives just so clean living that they just didn't have diseases?

Brian

[PRB]

I took an anthropology class once. In that class I learned that I’m not supposed to “measure” another culture by the same “yard stick” I use to measure my own. Mostly the reason for this is, not being a part of that culture, I can’t possibly know what it’s like to live in it, and therefore I am not qualified to judge it. There is some wisdom in that attitude, but many people seem to apply this “Prime Directive” a bit “selectively.” For example, I’m betting that most of the people for whom Columbus has fallen “out of favor” in the past twenty years or so are also advocates of this “thou shalt not judge another culture” rule of anthropology. Columbus’s voyage of discovery took place at the end of the “Dark Ages”, 500 years ago. Things were very different then, right? It was a different time, a different place, and a very different culture. It seems, after all, that some cultures can be judged quite harshly indeed, while others are “off limits” entirely…

[rayrey10]

Woof woof...I'm freaking hungry for Bob Evan Biscuits and Gray!

OBIO


If I lived near you I'd take you and your missus out for biscuits and gravy. Good post :applause:

[cheezyflier]

I guess it depends where you live...lol. Up here in Canukistan it's Thanksgiving Day, although there was no turkey for us....we had a ham joint instead.

so did we! my wife insisted on it. to me it seemed as bass ackwards as can be. however, i have been given a fair measure of skill in the kitchen, so it was all good anyhow.



If I lived near you I'd take you and your missus out for biscuits and gravy. Good post :applause:

biscuits and gravy are way too easy to make at home to be doing without.

[jkcook28]

I took an anthropology class once. In that class I learned that I’m not supposed to “measure” another culture by the same “yard stick” I use to measure my own. Mostly the reason for this is, not being a part of that culture, I can’t possibly know what it’s like to live in it, and therefore I am not qualified to judge it. There is some wisdom in that attitude, but many people seem to apply this “Prime Directive” a bit “selectively.” For example, I’m betting that most of the people for whom Columbus has fallen “out of favor” in the past twenty years or so are also advocates of this “thou shalt not judge another culture” rule of anthropology. Columbus’s voyage of discovery took place at the end of the “Dark Ages”, 500 years ago. Things were very different then, right? It was a different time, a different place, and a very different culture. It seems, after all, that some cultures can be judged quite harshly indeed, while others are “off limits” entirely…

Good post Paul. The different Indian tribes slaughtered each other on a grandios scale themselves.
I guess the "white man" came with a bigger stick. Survival of the fittest baby...

[djscoo]

*The negative attitudes expressed towards Native-Americans in this thread do not necessarily reflect the views of United States or its people as a whole.

[jmig]

*The negative attitudes expressed towards Native-Americans in this thread do not necessarily reflect the views of United States or its people as a whole.

Technically, the term "Native American" is inaccurate. As was stated at the beginning of this thread all human cultures came here from elsewhere. The Amercian Indian/Native American merely arrived here before the Europeans. I have always thought the Canadian "First Nations" term was a much better descriptive phase.

In attempting to make both cultures into something they weren't the proponents of the American Indians, in my opinion, are doing a disservice to their cause. The average person only has to visit a few culture centers depicting the life styles of the varies Tribes through the US to learn that they were much like the rest of us.

Some were war like raiders and some more peaceful. There was one tribe locally which at one time practiced canabalism. It was their lack of numbers and living space available, not advanced culture that kept most of them from killing off each other. Where tribes butted up to each other and competed for resources they could be just as merciless as the Europeans.

What happened to their culture was indeed tragic. However, it was bound to happen. You had two cultures, both looking to survive and live in the way their cultures taught them to live. One culture had greater numbers and better weapons.

Trying to now demonize one culture and mythologize the other is a disservice to both cultures fosters an incorrect view of history.

[Moparmike]

And before things get out of hand, it's time to put this one to bed.

Monday, October 12 2009 has come and gone, and so has Columbus Day, Native American Day, Thanksgiving Day (for the Canadians here), Our Lady of Aperacida Day, Friendship Day, Susan Anton's birthday, the anniversary of the bombing of the USS Cole, Robert E. Lee's or Willy Shoemaker's death anniversary, etc...

But the biggest thing on this date was the 30th anniversary of the publishing of Douglas Adam's "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy". :d

[OBIO]

But the biggest thing on this date was the 30th anniversary of the publishing of Douglas Adam's "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy". :d

Now THAT is a holiday I could and would celebrate. The most amazing 5 book Trilogy ever written! Have read the trilogy several times, never did master the art of flying but I have mastered the art of sandwich making. The movie......total dud.

OBIO

[Snuffy]

Well, if you want to go far enough back, humans aren't indigenous to anywhere but Africa. ...

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Jmig ... and ask for you to find something to verify that statement with.

As anyone who is a believer will tell you, mankind started and is indigenous to the southwestern part of Turkey or the northeastern part of Iraq. Or at least close to that area of the middle east/asia demographics.

:wavey:

[djscoo]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the argument of "it was bound to happen". It was a product of the mindset during that time period. American Indians weren't all peaceful, timid beings, but they also weren't bloodthirsty savages. If anyone were to be accurately portrayed as savages, I suggest reading up on the likes of Lord Amherst, responsible for giving blankets intentionally infected with smallpox as a "peace offering". Or Andrew Jackson, the president who initiated the "Indian Removal Act". The difference between the savageries committed by Europeans, and those committed by natives is that the Native Americans were defending their lifelong home.

[Moparmike]

Let me repeat myself...sheesh!



And before things get out of hand, it's time to put this one to bed.