Where do the images come from?

[falcon409]

I have been using the Annotator with great results for over a week now and in all cases I was working on Projects that included a photoreal image. I now have some airports that also require the use of the annotator to fill in after reconstructing the Airport Boundaries. The question is, in those cases where do I retrieve the image to use for placement of the autogen?

[GaryGB]

Hi Ed:

The FS SDK Annotator is primarily for use with photoreal scenery areas, which are treated as a form of custom land class having a special local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filename prefixes for Texture files (usually BMPs in FS9, and such photoreal imagery is now packaged "inside" 1 or more BGLs in FSX) which the Annotator matches when it writes out the *AGN file(s). :iidea:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15059&highlight=Identify+Tile


But in theory, if one could identify what the default filenames are for the area of one's project, one could make a copy of the default "land class" files and textures that map into that area, give them the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID file names for that specific set of LOD quads, and then create custom Annotator *.AGN files for the area of interest.

But that is less well explored and tested, and frought with risk of chaos if not done properly, which IIRC is one of the reasons Art Martin opted not to add that ability to his proprietary user interface for his FS Autogen Editor for use with FS SDK Annotator.


I believe some developers are now creating a totally transparent photoreal overlay BGL that is placed over the area of interest that allows the underlying (mostly default) scenery to show through, and that file is used as a base for placing Annotations.

But I guess that doesn't directly answer where the image comes from that one must use as a background when actually working in the Annotator. :pop4:

For that I believe, 1 or more additional bitmaps are created for the area of one's project, which must then be given the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filename prefixes before loaded up as background images in Annotator.

I'm not sure if SBuilder for FS9, SBuilderX or ADE presently does this capturing of a bitmap for one's workspace view, but I do recall that many folks used Jim Keir's LWMViewer 1.3 or 1.4 beta, and his LWMViewer2 to capture bitmaps of aliased or partially rendered scenery from a live linked FS session that could be geo-referenced for use as background images in other apps such as SBuilder for FS9... and I suspect also for FS SDK Annotator (given the proper naming conventions that must be used for the area of interest).


To identify the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filenames for a given quad or tile area, either of these apps can be used:

Dick Ludowise's (aka Rhumbaflappy) TCalc002 for FS9 and TCalcX for FSX:

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004sd&DLID=55467

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4273


---or George Davison's (aka "George", GHD, Golf-HotelDelta, Ananda) IDTileX (not sure if his FS9 "IdentifyTile" version is still available)


http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4272&highlight=Tile

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15059&highlight=Identify+Tile


FYI: FS9 Annotator and some very handy FS9 Annotator-compatible utilities such as AgenT (included with UKVFR Scenery Library Objects Package), and AutoTrees can be used with a background bitmap to do the major Annotation grunt work, then a copy of the FS9 AGN file(s) can be imported by FSX SDK Annotator for (irreversible) output in the FSX AGN file format.

http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=120923

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search.php?searchid=895513

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search.php?searchid=895515


NOTE: One may also need to flip FS9 imagery vertically during annotation in order for resulting AGN output files to work properly:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4691&highlight=AgenT



BTW: There are some initial annotation density limits imposed by the FS9 Annotator engine which one may wish to tweak once an AGN file is imported to FSX Annotator:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14888&highlight=Tile


Hope this "info-buffet" might prove helpful to your scenery projects ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB

[falcon409]

Hi Ed:

The FS SDK Annotator is primarily for use with photoreal scenery areas, which are treated as a form of custom land class having a special local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filename prefixes for Texture files (usually BMPs in FS9, and such photoreal imagery is now packaged "inside" 1 or more BGLs in FSX) which the Annotator matches when it writes out the *AGN file(s). :iidea:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15059&highlight=Identify+Tile


But in theory, if one could identify what the default filenames are for the area of one's project, one could make a copy of the default "land class" files and textures that map into that area, give them the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID file names for that specific set of LOD quads, and then create custom Annotator *.AGN files for the area of interest.

But that is less well explored and tested, and frought with risk of chaos if not done properly, which IIRC is one of the reasons Art Martin opted not to add that ability to his proprietary user interface for his FS Autogen Editor for use with FS SDK Annotator.


I believe some developers are now creating a totally transparent photoreal overlay BGL that is placed over the area of interest that allows the underlying (mostly default) scenery to show through, and that file is used as a base for placing Annotations.

But I guess that doesn't directly answer where the image comes from that one must use as a background when actually working in the Annotator. :pop4:

For that I believe, 1 or more additional bitmaps are created for the area of one's project, which must then be given the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filename prefixes before loaded up as background images in Annotator.

I'm not sure if SBuilder for FS9, SBuilderX or ADE presently does this capturing of a bitmap for one's workspace view, but I do recall that many folks used Jim Keir's LWMViewer 1.3 or 1.4 beta, and his LWMViewer2 to capture bitmaps of aliased or partially rendered scenery from a live linked FS session that could be geo-referenced for use as background images in other apps such as SBuilder for FS9... and I suspect also for FS SDK Annotator (given the proper naming conventions that must be used for the area of interest).


To identify the proper local numeric sub-sequence of land class ID filenames for a given quad or tile area, either of these apps can be used:

Dick Ludowise's (aka Rhumbaflappy) TCalc002 for FS9 and TCalcX for FSX:

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004sd&DLID=55467

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4273


---or George Davison's (aka "George", GHD, Golf-HotelDelta, Ananda) IDTileX (not sure if his FS9 "IdentifyTile" version is still available)


http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4272&highlight=Tile

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15059&highlight=Identify+Tile


FYI: FS9 Annotator and some very handy FS9 Annotator-compatible utilities such as AgenT (included with UKVFR Scenery Library Objects Package), and AutoTrees can be used with a background bitmap to do the major Annotation grunt work, then a copy of the FS9 AGN file(s) can be imported by FSX SDK Annotator for (irreversible) output in the FSX AGN file format.

http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=120923

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search.php?searchid=895513

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search.php?searchid=895515


NOTE: One may also need to flip FS9 imagery vertically during annotation in order for resulting AGN output files to work properly:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4691&highlight=AgenT



BTW: There are some initial annotation density limits imposed by the FS9 Annotator engine which one may wish to tweak once an AGN file is imported to FSX Annotator:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14888&highlight=Tile


Hope this "info-buffet" might prove helpful to your scenery projects ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB
Actually, I've been using TCalcX for getting proper elevation settings and TMfViewer from the SDK for proper landclass and Tile ID info.

I'm transferring all of your post to notepad for safe keeping, Thanks Gary.

[GaryGB]

Hi Ed:

Glad these ideas are of some interest and deemed worthy of archiving for future consideration. :)


Always one ready for an extra bow, may I offer yet 1 additional suggestion: :p:


Use FireFox to browse this forum page, then from the File menu, click "Save Page as", choose "Web Page, complete" as type, give it a reasonably descriptive filename, and save it to your favorite archive folder on your local hard drive.


Then you'll have a copy of the entire web page (complete with click-able links) that is protected from those inevitable server crashes that can cause entire forums to vanish... sometimes forever ! :engel016:

It would be nice to just Bookmark things too, but as we saw with AVSIM, they changed their Forum software (before the "hack") and < POOF > ! several years worth of Bookmarked links to excellent FS and Scenery Forum threads no longer work; no indications are seen that they intend to ever offer a "legacy forum thread URL to current thread URL" forwarding service either ! :mad:

So, I recommend archiving "keeper" forum threads with images, as some FS websites (like AVSIM) delete forum images & attachments as often as weekly.


And, as we saw with LAGO's support forums and install file areas, some websites go offline to never return (..."save to disk" while ya' still can !) :iidea:

GaryGB

[GaryGB]

THIS JUST IN:

Sorry for initially overlooking this, but.... :redface:

I forgot about SBuilder's (both FS9 and FSX versions) very sophisticated ability to capture online imagery tiles with geo-referencing info as background bitmaps, that could then be used to output FS photoreal imagery scenery BGLs (and textures in the case of FS9).

The photoreal scenery BGL(s) should then be immediately usable in FS SDK Annotator without worrying about proper FS9 and/or FSX land class numeric sub-sequence file sizing and naming for the quad areas (as they would already be correctly sized / named !)


Many thanks to Scott Smart's (aka scott967 (http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/member.php?u=364)) post for reminding me of this:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16405&page=4


Hope this approach proves to be even easier for you, Ed ! :icon_lol:

GaryGB

[falcon409]

Hi Gary,
Actually, for photoreal scenery, that's what I've been using. SBuilderX is excellent for knocking out some pretty quick photoreal base textures and then pull up the annotator and fill in with autogen. . .pretty simple really. My question had to do with the default airport areas. Many that I've done have simply been removing the old airport boundary rectangle and applying a new one that better fits the orientation of the actual airport. In a lot of cases that leaves a large area without autogen and that's what I wanted to fill back in using the annotator. . .but I don't believe there's any way to do that the more I think about it.

[GaryGB]

Hi Ed:

Yep, I elaborated on use of custom land class with Annotator because IIUC, custom AGN files can only be used with custom land class BGLs and textures. ;)

As I think you realize, if one were to use Annotator to edit the AGN files associated with default land class quad tiles, since those files are re-used throughout the FS world, one would bring about "chaos". :eek:


However, as you may know, a frequent motivation for using autogen objects is to allow display of any inherently designed seasonal change in vegetation along with other objects via somewhat more efficiently rendered 3D MDLs which most often also have more efficiently rendered textures.

In the case of AGN files, these "placement instructions" are read and sent to the appropriate optimized part of the FS rendering engine to be processed and displayed after subjected to extra parameters and variables associated with the terrain mesh and other BGL instructions.


But I believe one can still use a fair number of such autogen and autogen-like objects in a smaller scenery area like an airport project by simply placing them with XML methods via Instant Scenery or other XML object placement utilities.

The trade-off would be that one might NOT be able to display any inherently designed seasonal change in vegetation.

And I don't think one gets as effective of a rendering optimization as one would if XML-placed autogen objects had been placed via the AGN file "batched autogen draw call" part of the FS rendering engine.

But at least one would be able to ensure that selected autogen objects show up at an assigned location and scenery density slider setting.


More specifically to the objective of your quest and query here then:


One must bear in mind also that some of the objects (including some types of polygons and poly-lines) we place at or around airports and other scenery areas EXCLUDE the underlying instructions that would have otherwise resulted in display of autogen even if there was an AGN file for the scenery project area that was intended to put autogen there.

So, IIUC, in those cases one must use manually "XML-placed" autogen objects intermixed with one's other airport and generic buildings to fill back in what had been "excluded" by our other customized work in the area.

However, there are ways to minimize the impact and extent of some incidental excludes which I have seen discussed at FSDeveloper that may reduce the amount of work required to "fill back in" what got excluded by one's other customized work in the area.


Usually this is achieved by careful use of airport flattens with exclude attributes that are segmented; rather than the quick-and-dirty huge "single" flatten polygon (that immediately obliterates all autogen beneath it), one uses a number of flatten polygon types.

FYI: By default, most scenery utilities automatically use the "Flatten + MaskClassMap + ExcludeAutogen" GUID when making a flatten.

What I am describing here is judicious use of the "Flatten Only" GUID attribute in parts of one's airport where display of autogen is desired:naturesm:.


You may recall the alternative choices described in the FSX SDK "Terrain and Scenery.html" document:

"Vector Data - Airport Boundaries

Example - FLX7824 (file:///D:/FSX_X-Pack_SDK/SDK/Environment%20Kit/Terrain%20SDK/Vector%20Examples/Example1/SourceData/FLX7824.xml)

Notes - Although this area is titled Airport Boundaries, these are used for a number of purposes, including flattening a surface and excluding certain types of data, in addition to defining airport boundaries.

The .dbf file contains two columns, UUID and GUID. Enter the following GUIDs in the GUID column to achieve flattening, or autogen or land class exclusions. Airport boundaries are one example of the use of Flatten + MaskClassMap + ExcludeAutogen.

{6c0c6528-5cf1-483a-a586-2c905cf2757e} ExcludeAutogen
{47d48287-3ade-4fc5-8bec-b6b36901e612} Flatten
{5a7f944c-3d79-4e0c-82f5-04844e5dc653} Flatten + MaskClassMap
{1f2baab1-4132-416e-8f6f-28abe79cd60b} MaskClassMap
{46bfb3bd-ce68-418e-8112-feba17428ace} Flatten + MaskClassMap + ExcludeAutogen
{18580a63-fc8f-4a02-a622-8a1e073e627b} Flatten + ExcludeAutogen
{594e70c8-06a5-4e3f-be6e-4dbf50b49d11} MaskClassMap + ExcludeAutogen"

© 2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


One might have better granularity of area control (and thus save the work you might be now considering) by using a number of "flatten-with-autogen-exclude" polygons interspersed with "flatten-only" polygons when flattening the airport (all with matching elevations), and using segmented airport backgrounds to minimize un-desired exclusion of autogen.

Then one can overlay the segmented "flatten-only" polygons using polygons "textured" with land class that has associated "autogen" to reduce the need for individual XML-placed autogen objects. :iidea:


Besides, it might be nice for a change, to purposely take advantage of having those darn persistent autogen trees pop up through a part of the airport that we actually want them to, right ? :d

Jim Vile (aka jvile of ADE and 9 Dragons Kai Tak Scenery renown) has used this approach:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16694&highlight=autogen+exclude


Note that in this scenario, we are are creating "holes" to allow nesting of land within land polys, rather than the more commonly seen nesting of islands within water polys.


But it seems that for total control, the sequence that Jim Vile uses is to:

"exclude everything then add back the basic Airport landclass, flatten /exclude autogen"; then "add many different types of LC with autogen so the polys use the default FSX blending."


Hope these ideas help ! :cool:

GaryGB