Another threat of lawsuit!?? lolol...

[Lionheart]

Hey all,


Yep. Another has stepped up to threaten with a lawsuit. A group called Mindstar says I have copied their G1000 Garmin graphics. I do not even own the Mindstar system.

Goodness.... I thought these things only happen on a full moon.


So now, if we make gauges or freeware planes, or payware planes, or gauge code, we can be sued by people that think we stole these things? lol... What is the world coming too.


I thought that someone might do this, so I created mine from scratch via manuals and other screenshots. I have all the evidence to prove it just in case this happened.


If my name is damaged by this, I guess I can sue right back.



Bill

[tigisfat]

That's too bad, but I'm glad you have the right attitude and you can laugh about it. Such is life and business. I've been a businessman for most of my adult life, and I lost count of how many times I've been sued. I've always tried to walk the moral path and it does help, but you can't avoid every bit of trouble. Those with a lack of integrity and morals will find you and sue you. There's been times when I've lost quite a bit of money, and I wish I had as mature an attitude as you, sir.

:medals::icon29:

[JamesChams]

Give'em HELL, Mr. Bill!

If you need a good Lawyer, do let me know...

[Lionheart]

Thanks guys.


The person that is saying this failed to see a couple of points. First, my Epic LT came out before his Mindstar, and mine is a G900, not a G1000.

oops...

And I even created a banner for them and were sending my own customers to him for a better Garmin system for the Epic.


Crazy world..

[heywooood]

well - it looks like being a flight sim modeler has its adventures...

bored corporate lawyers need to toss letters around like this to try to justify their ridiculous retainers - what you do is continue the toss...right to your nearest circular file cabinet

good job to keep a CYA journal though Bill - just in case :icon29:

[Slug Flyer]

Tell him to pound sand.

[kjb]

There are some strange people out there. Way too many people think they've been damaged by someone else. I have to wonder if they're struggling and hoping to make a buck off of you or actually think you've um...damaged them somehow. Sheesh, losers!

[ryanbatc]

Lmao.....

[djscoo]

If you keep getting these emails, you should start contributing to this site:
http://emailsfromcrazypeople.com/

An example of the "empty lawyer threat":
10120
:icon_lol:

[falcon409]

If you keep getting these emails, you should start contributing to this site:
"an example of the "empty lawyer threat"::icon_lol:
Geeze, now that's pretty funny. . . ."hey, it took me a long time to find pictures I could rip off for my own use. . .then you move em' on me" How dare you!!!!
LMAO. . .sheesh.:isadizzy:

[Wombat_VC]

Read about that company before. Never thought of their stuff as attractive for me to spend a single cent on.

Psalm 1:6

[Mithrin]

Bill, make some money out of this hehe. Sue them back. Always fun.

[Cazzie]

There always an A-hole and generally they are the ones who make the most money or have the most influence and power.

My father and I owned a Roofing & Sheet Metal business, got sued three times; by the county Commonwealth Attorney, a District Court Circuit judge, and a veteran cop detective. Lost lots money on all three.

Well, what goes around truly does come around. The Commonwealth Attorney was busted in a extortion charge for taking money from pimps and ended up committing suicide. The judge had a heart attack while driving on Main St. in Chatham and hit three parked vehicles, he is now bedridden and near death. The cop, who is now 73, had his gun tucked in his britches at Libby Hill Restaurant and when he stood up to leave, it discharged wounding himself and two other patrons. Guess who's being sued now.

I put a voodoo spell on the three of them way back when, but it took a while to work. :icon_lol:

Caz

[Oli-TUB]

Isn't Mindstar the force behind the Garmin of Eaglesoft?

[jmig]

Isn't Mindstar the force behind the Garmin of Eaglesoft?

Don't know...BUT...I will make it a point to never buy anything Mindstar made.

They want to threaten Bill? I say boycott the bast@rds.

[gera]

Don't know...BUT...I will make it a point to never buy anything Mindstar made.

They want to threaten Bill? I say boycott the bast@rds.

Aye, Aye.......:gameoff::gameoff: let Mindstar start feeling the heat!!!! for messing with Bill!!!!

[Slug Flyer]

I had never heard of Mindstar before this thread. Don't know whether that says more about them or me, but...

[Oli-TUB]

It's indeed a partner of Eaglesoft -> http://www.eaglesoftdg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5

[Slug Flyer]

I'll make sure not to purchase any Eaglesoft products with Mindstar components in them. Not that I like glass cockpits in GA aircraft anyway.

[Matt Wynn]

Boycott time :wiggle: they wanna threaten Bill well they've got a wall of people to deal with :icon_lol:

[mike_cyul]

Yup, not a good move on their part. :running:

Btw, whatever happened with the guy who claimed ownership of the name Starliner (or whatever it was!)?

Mike

[jdhaenens]

It would appear to the casual observer that if two individuals try to build the same thing, the things they build may indeed turn out similar.

I'm also having a hard time figuring out how to calculate "Damages" . Are they saying tnat you should have purchased a license from them to install the G1000? Do they have a licensing agreement with Garmin?

Boycoting Eaglesoft is a red herring. It won't do anything but tick off a reputable firm that (apparently) has a desperate supplier.

Did you talk with Eaglesoft about using your garmin instead? Seems if the supplier in question were playing on a level playing field, they would be better served taking care of their business than yours.

Jim

[Slug Flyer]

I just remembered the time I wrote a summary of an episode of a TV show on Wikipedia and was accused of plagiarism by a guy who had summarized the same episode on his website...because, surprisingly, our two accounts of the scripted recorded events were quite similar.

And then the Wikipedia moderators sided with him.

[falcon409]

Boycott time they wanna threaten Bill well they've got a wall of people to deal with
Exactly. . .gee ,maybe a small letter writing campaign to the folks at Eaglesoft would hasten a settlement of this misunderstanding. Poor PR is on the horizon for Eaglesoft if they are affiliated in any way with the mindless folks at Mindstar. Just a thought.:wiggle:

[falcon409]

I just remembered the time I wrote a summary of an episode of a TV show on Wikipedia and was accused of plagiarism by a guy who had summarized the same episode on his website...because, surprisingly, our two accounts of the scripted recorded events were quite similar.

And then the Wikipedia moderators sided with him.
Yep, when you are out there blogging, or wikkiing or whatever you will always run into some folks who have a greatly inflated idea of their importance in the world, a few may be justified in those assumptions, but most are not, but to admit that would be such a jab to their ego's that it isn't even a option.

[ryanbatc]

Now hold on here, don't stop buying ES products because another they have partnered with this company. How is that fair to ES? I don't think any of their products have the Mindstar G1000 in them. ES isn't suing you, it's this bonehead company Mindstar. ES makes very solid products - everyone should own their Cirrus models.

[Henry]

Boycoting Eaglesoft is a red herring. It won't do anything but tick off a reputable firm that (apparently) has a desperate supplier.

Did you talk with Eaglesoft about using your garmin instead? Seems if the supplier in question were playing on a level playing field, they would be better served taking care of their business than yours.

Jim
well put
H

[falcon409]

Now hold on here, don't stop buying ES products because another they have partnered with this company. How is that fair to ES? I don't think any of their products have the Mindstar G1000 in them. ES isn't suing you, it's this bonehead company Mindstar. ES makes very solid products - everyone should own their Cirrus models.
Nope, not advocating any kind of retaliation towards Eaglesoft. . .I have a lot of their aircraft and will continue to purchase from them. . .as you said, it's the boneheaded folks at Mindstar who seem to think they own anything even remotely similar to their product.

[Tim_Horton]

I just got a petition from Sesame street, for using the Letter H, and the color Yellow.

[falcon409]

I just got a petition from Sesame street, for using the Letter H, and the color Yellow.
lol!

[Henry]

I just got a petition from Sesame street, for using the Letter H, and the color Yellow.
well that takes me out!
H:running:

[N400QW]

Hmm, I've just received the same sort of odd email from our friend Stasi over at Mindstar Aviation.:isadizzy:

It appears that recent minor disagreements in discussions for a path forward between Eaglesoft Development Group and Mindstar Aviation may be a contributing factor here but we are unable to offer any more than that at this time.

Whatever the motivation, we are sure that Lionheart and Eaglesoft will do their best to resolve their differences with Mindstar Aviation in a mature and gentlemenly manner.

[Henry]

Hmm, I've just received the same sort of odd email from our friend Stasi over at Mindstar Aviation.:isadizzy:

It appears that recent minor disagreements in discussions for a path forward between Eaglesoft Development Group and Mindstar Aviation may be a contributing factor here but we are unable to offer any more than that at this time.

Whatever the motivation, we are sure that Lionheart and Eaglesoft will do their best to resolve their differences with Mindstar Aviation in a mature and gentlemenly manner.
Thank you Sir!
H

[falcon409]

. . . . . Whatever the motivation, we are sure that Lionheart and Eaglesoft will do their best to resolve their differences with Mindstar Aviation in a mature and gentlemenly manner.
Indeed, whatever their motivation, sometimes these people should take a moment to step back an get a grip. Maybe a more cordial request from Mindstar for additional information from Bill would have produced better results than to simply accuse him of ripping them off. Geeeze.

[Wombat_VC]

Looking at the issue objectively - anyone attempting to simulate a third party object would end up developing a similar if not identical product that has the same look and feel. This is as good as the multiple J-3's that are out there. If everyone starts to sue everyone else, the only guys laughing their way to the banks are lawyers. The only party that can claim any original rights would be Garmin itself. :isadizzy:

[N400QW]

While look and feel cannot be a basis for action, use of anothers intellectual property in the form of bitmaps and other artwork can and should be a basis for legal recourse.

I'm reminded that only a few months back a freeware modeler turned commercial developer did inded include a number of our own bitmaps in his project.

When we were made aware of that fact we contacted him and his vendor and issued a cease and desist order which they complied with.

The same thing happened with yet another freeware author who wished to castigate us for issueing him a cease and desist.

I cannot use any copyrighted artwork and neither can anyone else.:USA-flag:

[peter12213]

I just got a petition from Sesame street, for using the Letter H, and the color Yellow.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that makes pefect sense, I mean what can we do??

[falcon409]

While look and feel cannot be a basis for action, use of anothers intellectual property in the form of bitmaps and other artwork can and should be a basis for legal recourse. . . . . .I cannot use any copyrighted artwork and neither can anyone else.
. . .and certainly if that were the case here Mindstar would have a basis for action. . .but they do not. Bill has always shown to be honest and above board when developing his addons and this will prove to be no exception. Mindstar showed poor form at the very least if their first reaction was to immediately shoot off a cease and desist without first talking to him and weighing the facts.
No doubt there are those out there who would think nothing of ripping off an idea here or there and calling it their own and you have to guard against such things. . .but in this case. . .Mindstar needs to step back, take a deep breath and try not to look too foolish on their way out the door.

[N2056]

Based on the apparent pattern I can see some guy at Garmin opening his e-mail tomorrow and thinking wth? :icon_lol:

[falcon409]

Based on the apparent pattern I can see some guy at Garmin opening his e-mail tomorrow and thinking wth? :icon_lol:
lol, exactly.

[bkeske]

Hmm, I've just received the same sort of odd email from our friend Stasi over at Mindstar Aviation.:isadizzy:

It appears that recent minor disagreements in discussions for a path forward between Eaglesoft Development Group and Mindstar Aviation may be a contributing factor here but we are unable to offer any more than that at this time.

Whatever the motivation, we are sure that Lionheart and Eaglesoft will do their best to resolve their differences with Mindstar Aviation in a mature and gentlemenly manner.

Bravo Ron.

Though, it is disheartening to hear about what may be transpiring between ES and MindStar Ron. I have been patiently awaiting your collaboration.

I hope both you and Bill can get this settled.

[OBIO]

Since I can't afford any Eaglesoft products anyhow, I'm a natural for this boycott LOL!

OBIO

[DSbiggles]

Interesting thread.

I assume that, as usual, it is another party who is threatening legal action - not a real lawyer? As I have said before on many occasions, I don't know what it is about flight simulation that seems to turn a few people into particularly litigious amateur lawyers. Has anyone actually been successfully sued for anything related to FS? I doubt it.

I'm reminded of the good old days of Peter 'Papa Tango' Tishma. He signed non-exclusive licences with a number of airlines and then wrote cod-legal letters to freeware devs, "on behalf" of the airline, threatening legal action. A particularly good trick was to cc the letters to a real legal firm and the airline. Anyone reading it, who wasn't familiar with this trick, would assume that these companies were involved. Invariably, they weren't.

Bottom line with all these clowns is to write back politely acknowledging their letter and request that "...all legal papers or similar correspondence is served to our mailing address at:... blah blah blah". Don't, under any circumstances, give them the satisfaction of replying in an angry tone and explaining why your product is not a rip off etc etc. That only serves to encourage them!

As someone pointed out earlier, the burden of proof lies with the litigator to prove what they have 'lost' and also to demonstrate how you have ripped off their creation. Not that easy, when you are talking about something that is not original in the first place - by that I mean it was originally designed by Garmin, Marconi, Boeing, Airbus or whoever.

I have often thought of running a competiton to find the most pompous/unfeasible legal threat issued in connection with a flight sim. Looks like it could have quite a few entrants. First prize would be a day in court - all expenses paid :icon_lol:

Keep it legal!

Dermot Stapleton
Operations Director
Just Flight / Just Trains

[MindstarAviation]

whoah, I think this thread is getting out of hand and mischaracterizing who is at the heart of all this. The companies involved were intending to keep this quiet, but since this is out in the open, now I guess I have to reply. There is an independent contractor at the heart of all this, and it's not the president of Eaglesoft nor is it the president of Lionheart. Those two individuals are top notch people, and perhaps the heat of the moment at the beginning of all this prompted someone to start talking about this openly. But we are all talking to each other and have no problems with each other individually. All 3 of us are victims of the same issue here, we're working TOGETHER on this, not against each other. We did not expect to have to openly show exactly what happened, but if these postings stay ugly, our 3 companies may have to come up with some way to show the sim community what happened without openly bashing anybody individually.

[jmig]

whoah, I think this post is getting out of hand and mischaracterizing who is at the heart of all this. The companies involved were intending to keep this quiet, but since this is out in the open, now I guess I have to reply. There is an independent contractor at the heart of all this, and it's not the president of Eaglesoft nor is it the president of Lionheart. Those two individuals are top notch people, and perhaps the heat of the moment at the beginning of all this prompted someone to start talking about this openly. But we are all talking to each other and have no problems with each other individually. All 3 of us are victims of the same issue here, we're working TOGETHER on this, not against each other. We did not expect to have to openly show exactly what happened, but if these postings stay ugly, our 3 companies may have to come up with some way to show the sim community what happened without openly bashing anybody individually.


Sir/sirs, you might want to explain yourself a little more fully here. Rightly or wrongly, you are being painted as the bad guy/guys.

I am a consumer of MSFS products. I am also the person who first mentioned boycott. You see, I have known Bill of Lionheart here for a couple of years. You get to know a lot about someone by reading, day in and day out what they write. I consider Bill to be a person of high integrity and honesty.

I have also read a lot of Ron's of Eaglesoft posts here and over at AVSIM. Ron and I have exchanged emails and PMs over the years. While I don't feel I know him as well as Bill, he has always come across as a honest but practical businessman. Mindstar or its owners, I have never heard of before this.

This is not to say you have less honesty or integrity than Bill or Ron. It merely means that your issue with Bill puts you at odds with most of us here at SOH.

I would venture to say that Bill is one of the most well liked people on SOH. So, you see, rightly or wrongly, fairly or not, you do have a daunting task in convincing us that Bill misused your material.

My desire is to see more and more, better and better products for my hobby. Leaving personalities and friendship aside, issues like this one hurt the entire community. If we keep it up, companies like Garmin could decide to not let anybody copy their products. then we will all be hurt.

Sincerely,

[MindstarAviation]

When someone showed me this post and how it was turning, yes, I could see how Mindstar was being painted as the bad guy. I don't want to say anything more than I've already said here, which I admit is pretty minimal, until Lionheart and Eaglesoft have a chance to reply in whatever way they see fit, because I recognize that being seen as the bad guy, anything I say here will just look like me trying to defend myself.

I think all 3 of our companies are all just shocked and dumbfounded at finding out the reality of what's been going on behind our backs. None of us, not Mindstar, not Eaglesoft, not Lionheart, takes intellectual property theft lightly, because THAT hurts the sim community more than anything, because it makes people wary of putting their hard work on the market for fear of stuff like this happening, and it robs us all of fantastically usable addons.

[Chacha]

Let us all calm down! :engel016: The three involved parties MS, LHC, and ES are amicably settling the issue, whatever it is. We don't want to put FIRE in the middle of the discussion.

All I can say is, we just wait and see when the dust settles down. The three involved are diplomatically working on it. MindstarAviation is right, let us leave that to them (LHC, ES and MS). They are working on it right now and I trust they can solve the issue without further disagreement.

I know Bill, real well, I have known the man for 6/7 years; And let's give them a chance to work on it peacefully. :engel016:

Eli