OK Americans... what do you think of the these recommendations.

[crashaz]

NASA's moon plan too ambitious...

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation/story/1185467.html

What a crock!!

With better technology and knowing tons more about how to do it compared to back then... yet we have gone from a country that could do it in 8+ years to one that can't do it in 20??

I stop short of the full title ... what the hell is going on!?!:angryfir:


We need a white flag icon here... at half mast.:blind:

Awakening a sleeping giant indeed. :a1451:

[cheezyflier]

i don't know anything about that kind of thing, but in my mind, if they're gonna do it at all, i don't see the point in making a lazy half-hearted effort.
i also wonder how much science might benefit from putting a base there.

[Cactuskid]

Sad, but unfortunately not suprising...

When Adm. Yamamoto made that famous quote, he was talking about an America that no longer exists.

I could go on about this all night, but suffice to say, I grieve for my country...

[Lionheart]

We need to do it first rate. I think we should also invite passengers, plan it to be half 'tourism' to invite in money flow and financial growth.

A station could do tons. People already pay a Million to go up in an antique Soyuz. Imagine a nice hotel room on the moon, safely underground, with top ground observatory rooms with windows... Imagine it.

Also, they say there is alot of materials (mining possibilities) that are there.


I for one am for it. This is an investment into colonizing other worlds. We need to learn to make space based bases and stations that would be waypoints to farther worlds and moons, farther systems.

The time to start is now. We can say 'when we are better ready' , but that time never comes... (Just like having kids... ).

Thats my 3 cents worth on it.. Its time.



Bill

[crashaz]

That America does not have to be a thing of the past if we do right by remembering the lessons they were trying to teach us.

[TARPSBird]

Awakening a sleeping giant indeed.
Lately I've been wondering if the giant is sleeping or dead. :frown:
Here's a recent article by Charles Krauthammer on the same subject:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer071709.php3
I like his comment on our "hyper-terrestrial" phase. We're no longer enthusiastic about high-tech achievements that we as a nation can take credit for. We're just happy to yak on our cellphones. "Hey, where you at?" should be our national motto.

[djscoo]

Slightly reminiscent of "Deception Point" a novel by Dan Brown in which NASA is deemed a money vacuum and put on the chopping block. A great read if you have interests in the science-fiction/action genre.

[Silver Fox]

Near-Earth asteroids are worth visiting... I wouldn't spend 10 cents to support a mission to the Lagrange Points until such time as we are installing space stations there to serve as customs stations for spacecraft visiting Earth! Visiting Phobos... or Deimos? Sure... We can use either as a gravitational anchor to set up a base to support the exploration of Mars.

'We choose to go to the Lagrange Points, not because they are easy, but because we can do it on a budget. Yes we can!' Not exactly Kennedy-esque, is it?

[stiz]

personaly i think we should spend the money fixing the mess we created on this planet before going onto others, which is a base is ever set up, will just happen there as well :kilroy:

[Z-PurpleBubble]

personaly i think we should spend the money fixing the mess we created on this planet before going onto others, which is a base is ever set up, will just happen there as well :kilroy:

Couldn't agree more with ya Stiz! :applause:

Instead of looking for new "biotopes" we should be looking at cleaning this one up after the mess we as a spiecies made of it!

[PRB]

Every group of people will have those who think exploration is worth doing, and those who will always come up with a reason not to do it. The argument that we should first fix our problems on Earth is as old as exploration itself. Since it’s impossible to “fix all our problems”, no matter how much money and time is spent, this is an argument against any form of exploration, ever. Fortunately, we’re not “wired” that way, and we must explore. If we survive, we will probably get there, in time. Unfortunately, if we’re relying on governments to fund and execute such an operation, it will take much longer, and will be far more expensive, than the same project done by private individuals. And since it’s taxpayer’s money, the entire project is subject to arguments like stiz's and bubble's, as is everything governments spend our money on.

[Kiwikat]

Every group of people will have those who think exploration is worth doing, and those who will always come up with a reason not to do it. The argument that we should first fix our problems on Earth is as old as exploration itself. Since it’s impossible to “fix all our problems”, no matter how much money and time is spent, this is an argument against any form of exploration, ever. Fortunately, we’re not “wired” that way, and we must explore. If we survive, we will probably get there, in time. Unfortunately, if we’re relying on governments to fund and execute such an operation, it will take much longer, and will be far more expensive, than the same project done by private individuals. And since it’s taxpayer’s money, the entire project is subject to arguments like stiz's and bubble's, as is everything governments spend our money on.

My guess is that we'll see Rutan and Branson on the moon in 5 years... :icon_lol:

Their Virgin Galactic mothership has got to be the most impressive thing I've ever seen take to the skies. You'd swear it alone could go mach 5 and takeoff vertically... let alone the rocket-powered spacepod.

[jmig]

My guess is that we'll see Rutan and Branson on the moon in 5 years... :icon_lol:

Their Virgin Galactic mothership has got to be the most impressive thing I've ever seen take to the skies. You'd swear it alone could go mach 5 and takeoff vertically... let alone the rocket-powered spacepod.

My guess is that when Virgin Galactic arrives on the moon, they will find Wal-Mart already there. :)

If Al Gore and his doomsday friends are right, we had better be doing something to try and find other places to live. To paraphrase and reverse a quote from the old beer ads, "It ain't gonna get any better."

[TeaSea]

Clearly Europeans should have cleaned up that mess in Europe before they started out looking around out West. So short sighted on their parts.

I agree with PRB and would add that this discussion on spending on things here at home versus spending on space exploration is often tossed about, and it's silly (with all due respect to Stiz and PurpleBubble). It's the same sort of "Guns versus Butter" argument that's often used. These kinds of things are simply not in competition. although there are plenty of folks out there that would like you to believe so.

Here in the U.S. there are those who say that we need to spend on Health Care because there's this supposed "crises" wholeheartedly ignoring the fact that our average lifespans seem to continue to increase during this "crises". Our definition of "problem" seems to be changing all the time and hard to measure, whereas putting a human on the moon is a pretty definate check block....you either do it or you don't.

Our problems with space exploration are more basic though. The U.S. made some errors in defining the future of space travel way back in the 70's that we are living with today. We mortgaged a good chunk of our space future in the Shuttle, which has proven to be a dog. Yes, I know it's wonderful to watch and does amazing things, but it's intent was to provide an economical way to move packages into orbit. That it has not been. Therefore, from a programatic point of view it is a failure. It did however keep a core of knowledge and engineering capability going, which does provide a springboard for our next steps...sort of.

Moving back to the Moon means we have to go re-learn a bunch of things we have forgotten (we no longer have the capability to build and launch rockets the size of a Saturn V). That ain't going to be cheap, it ain't going to be easy, and it's pretty clear the current administration (be they right or wrong) are of the "fix things at home" persuasion.

I personally believe moving beyond the Earth is one of the great promises of the species and most important things mankind can do...but I hold out little hope.

I do believe that the current machinations within the Gov't sponsered space programs has opened an interesting little commercial niche. Perhaps ultimately that will be the way forward, but I sort of doubt it.

[safn1949]

My guess is that when Virgin Galactic arrives on the moon, they will find Wal-Mart already there. :)

If Al Gore and his doomsday friends are right, we had better be doing something to try and find other places to live. To paraphrase and reverse a quote from the old beer ads, "It ain't gonna get any better."


Al Gore is a con man...quite successful,I might add, but still a con man.I fear for our country but hold out hope that this pack of thieves and bums will fade away.Then maybe we can set our sights high and excel again....maybe.

One can always hope.:USA-flag:

[cheezyflier]

Thats my 3 cents worth on it..



Bill

i agree, and that was kind of my point. i think the moon could be a good "jumping off" place for spots that we might want to go to. that way we wouldn't be using so much fuel to leave the atmosphere of earth. and a permanently manned base there would probably be able to reasearch alot of things. however, i suspect therein lies the trouble. someone recently said that science is no longer about knowledge, but about power. and if there isn't money or power in it in the immediate sense, no one seems to be interested anymore,

[Curtis P40]

Go Rutan and Branson ... the Wright brothers got us into the air, 66 years later Nasa gets us to the moon. Now 40 years later, what have we done?
Curt

[CADFather]

Unfortunately, if we’re relying on governments to fund and execute such an operation, it will take much longer, and will be far more expensive, than the same project done by private individuals. And since it’s taxpayer’s money, the entire project is subject to arguments like stiz's and bubble's, as is everything governments spend our money on.
If there ever was an argument against Government Health Care, here is your basis.

[p14u2nv]

I truly believe that ALL of these present "crisis" situations in the US are merely fabricated issues to take control of the masses in a way not known to the average American. And with this ideology, a new way of thinking, comes the disintegration of our rights under the Constitution. If you will, people are being pitted against each other under this ideology; fat vs. fit, healthy vs. ill, smokers vs. non smokers, wealthy vs. the middle class, union vs. non union and on and on. Every situation involves a vs. problem which needs to be "cured!" "Global Warming is one fine example. The last time the earth warmed like this CO2 levels were much higher than now. So what caused it back then? Colossal dinosaur farts I presume. Yet here is Algore making a fortune off this farce. Carbon credits that can be traded like common stocks? Right...

This is NOT what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote our Constitution. Presently there is a Band of Zeros in charge right now and they haven't a clue as to what to do. Except of course making ill attempts at fixing all with massive amounts of $$ spent and intertwined with socialism as a solution. And those who object or stand up against this as is their right; they are simply vilified and labeled as everything under the sun other than what and who they are; American citizens who have a voice and are using it. Sad but true.

A soft tyranny exists and is in violation of our Constitution is so many regards. Any time government takes over private industries we have problems. When the Fed tells the states how to conduct the business of the states that is very action is in violation of the 10th Amendment plain and simple which strictly limits the power of the federal government. THAT my friends is just one example. There are many others. But too many times nothing has been done. NOTHING. Going back to the moon and issues like this is simply a smoke screen so you don't really see what is really happening. That's my take.

A dead sleeping giant? I don't think so as the masses seem to be awakening as to what is happening and are coming forth and simply saying NO! Finally...ok my rant is over...

[Henry]

Politics ?
Nah not you lot:isadizzy:
H

[Snuffy]

Of course its too ambitious ... why spend all those billions of dollars on that when we are obviously trying to hoard all the money we can find ... ???

:monkies:

[Toastmaker]

Alright you ruffians - break out some ID and get in the back of the van. . .

[Donnybrooke]

Well, if we don't do it, maybe someone who doesn't have their head up their a$$ will. :ernae:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090818-excalibur-almaz-spaceships.html

[Lateral-G]

It boils down to a matter of will. Just how badly do you want to do it?

It seems, as a country, we have lost the "will" or desire to do things. It has become more of a money issue. How much will it cost? What is my return on investment? How will we benefit financially?

We, as a nation, can do whatever we want to. We have the talent, we have the ability, whe have the technology. What we lack is the will to do so.

-G-

[TeaSea]

Ouch!!

Beware the wrath of Henry!!

:monkies:

[MaddogK]

You cannot do this program on this budget

Kinda says it all, "No bucks, NO Buck Rodgers"

I'm of the 'deep space' option folks, but I doubt the G'ovt will give NASA the funds for ANY 'real' project but will be happy to pay for a quote "sellable" mission for NASA. Perhaps time has come to privatize NASA.

...just thinking out loud

[Lionheart]

Kinda says it all, "No bucks, NO Buck Rodgers"

I'm of the 'deep space' option folks, but I doubt the G'ovt will give NASA the funds for ANY 'real' project but will be happy to pay for a quote "sellable" mission for NASA. Perhaps time has come to privatize NASA.

...just thinking out loud


I think you are right, Maddog.


If you google the speech by Burt Rutan, (who by the way has created several successful space craft recently), Burt talked on how privatization of certain markets and designs were required where the government could no longer afford to make the departments grow. One was radar, one was computer, and he mentioned several others.

The amount of money they could make on an orbital hotel could be phenomenal. I think that is what Virgin is planning on doing. Its going to be a big boom, from what I am seeing, if the economy starts improving. (Sorry, 'when' the economy starts improving).

Privatization usually means people finding cheaper alternatives to making things work, inexpensive ways to manufacture, new forms of economic systems and materials and fuels. The government really doesnt function well as a business. Business also doesnt function well as a government. So NASA should be actually dealing with new things, new technologies, not running a Satellite relay business. But no one else is doing it lately, so its a difficult call.

We should really be developing some hot new stuff by now, publically, like Magneto drive (magnetic lift/flight), and something like Philidelphia Projects 'dimensional warp' or what ever its called, (leaping to Australia from Philly in 30 min's in a ship in the late 1940's). That is NASA's thing. Not running things into space and working on satellites.

And we definately need to start working on the Moon. If the Moon has tons of ore on it, man, that would be awesome. We could mine less on Earth and mine the heck out of Luna. We could manufacture things 'there' and start learning to run a off-world colony.

For instance, you could make thick space craft hull plates on the Moon, even out of concrete, and magnetically launch them into Lunar orbit easily (low gravity) and join them all in orbit, having a radiation proof hull (concrete) that would protect its occupants, 'in space' (no rockets to launch it), and bring it to Earth orbit for outfitting it with all the equipment, engines, etc. A ship like that could then run back and fourth to Mars, dropping off people, equipment, supplies, and bringing people home. Sort of a supply ship or long haul ship. Colony ship in a small sense. Mind you, I am thinking big. 50 passengers, 300plus feet long, able to carry entire landers (several) and tons of supplies.

So much we could be doing right now.. So much....



Bill

[Lionheart]

Here is one I submitted to NASA years ago, lol... (yes.. I really did).

Its been in my mind for ages now. Perhaps 20 years. Its based on the Russians design for a concrete submarine but this would be created on the moon (the shell parts), and assembled in orbit, and the interiors fitted to the sections in Earth orbit. The inner sections are easily created on Earth and fitted into the airframe or shell modules.

The beauty of concrete (Lunar concrete) is that it does not let harmful radiations such as dangerous Gama radiation, pass through the hull, so you are protected from solar flare storms and other solar weather anomolies. That also includes micro-meteorites.

Such a huge ship could enable storage of many backup parts, reserve fuels and gasses, etc. Its basically like an ocean liner but for space and for several month rounds.

This is a quick rendering in Gmax to show how it all works.


EDIT: I failed to show scale. This is like a sky scraper if you put it on its tail and set it up in a city. This would be like a thin building. If it were sitting on the ground on its belly, it would be several stories high, so I guess its about the size of a WWII aircraft carrier. Not as wide, not as high, and perhaps a bit longer.

Bill