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Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:01
I've been wondering this for a long time.

SOH is a tightly knit online community, however we can never get a multiplayer event together. I've noticed this on other forums as well. So I've got a few questions about multiplayer.

1.) Please vote in the poll.

2.) If you do use multiplayer, why? If you don't use multiplayer, why not?

3.) Why do you think others DON'T use multiplayer?


Please take a minute to vote and answer the questions.

Thanks guys! I hope to get a discussion going... :ernae:

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:09
1.) I voted often.

2.) I fly multiplayer because it is a good opportunity to get to know others in the community on a more personal level while enjoying a hobby we share. It adds a personal experience to the sim that you do not get when flying by yourself. You can also do cool things like fly-ins, formations, and racing in multiplayer.

3.) I'm not entirely sure why others don't use multiplayer. That is part of the reason I made this thread. I think a lot of it has to do with shyness. People are comfortable doing their own thing and don't see any reason to try anything new. Perhaps I am wrong though...

CG_1976
August 10th, 2009, 17:09
I fly about 25 hours a week over at RWATC http://www.realworldatc.com/index.php
I can rebt my tiedown or jetway and rack up E-cash and learn at my own pace to fly with a ATC then have a push and shove Vatsim--- just my personal opion on Vatsim and how I feel. I commend:icon29: all who fly excellent at Vatsim.

N2056
August 10th, 2009, 17:11
I can play, or I can create.
I choose the latter :d

Tako_Kichi
August 10th, 2009, 17:19
I didn't participate in the poll as I mostly fly in MP (in fact most of my flying is done in MP when not beta testing or painting) but I almost never use any of the MP options listed as 95% of the time I fly on a direct connection with friends.

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:20
I didn't participate in the poll as I mostly fly in MP (in fact most of my flying is done in MP when not beta testing or painting) but I almost never use any of the MP options listed as 95% of the time I fly on a direct connection with friends.

That is what the etc. is for ;) So please select often if you could.

Could you guys PLEASE answer my #3 question?

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 17:21
Great question. Actually you could even split it into a question about what server we most often use and why. . .man this would be almost as long a thread as the one for the L-39, lol.
I fly MP flights at least 4 times a week on several different servers all using FSHost Client. Why?. . .just more interesting that way. I may go online with the intention of flying a current hoplist and end up flying a totally different flightplan with a bunch of the folks on the server, always interesting.

There are at least a few reasons I run into all the time for why others don't use MP. Some servers ask that use Team Speak for Comm, not a lot, but some. . .most servers have it available but it's up to you to use it or not. But in some cases, where you are asked to use it to eliminate the chat window (just get's in the way and I rarely answer a chat message when I'm flying because I don't want to take the time, during an approach to go type an answer) some pilots will simply not fly because they don't speak very good english or they don't like the way they sound or they don't speak english at all.
Another reason I've found is that on an FS9 server, there is a conflict with ICAO codes matching between the sims, so if you're flying FSX, there could be half a dozen airports that don't match what FS9 shows and you can be stuck at one airport if you can't use the ?hop= trigger to jump to the next hop. I finally quit flying a few servers because there wasn't an admin available most of the time to monitor the flights and get you out of situations like that.

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:26
Those who are answering "Never", could you please elaborate why? This poll is mostly targeted at you.

N332DW
August 10th, 2009, 17:30
direct connect - flightsimnation / ventrillo , ... and once in a while gamespy
- single player is for beta testing only usually

N2056
August 10th, 2009, 17:32
For me, as a developer I spend my time in a pretty constant loop of model/export/check in sim...I hardly fly on my own for 'fun'. Maybe an hour a week! With that in mind, I hope you can understand why I have little time or interest in the multiplayer thing ;)

Bjoern
August 10th, 2009, 17:33
I never have and never will see MSFS as a multiplayer sim.
My first and only time of flying online was back with FS98. We all started at Meigs, but the group dispersed immediately after take-off.
This kind of spoiled it for me, since it was no different from singleplayer, except for a bunch of dudes located somewhere in the area.

I don't see much purpose in multiplayer free flight anyways. What's there to be done except practising formation flights?

Online tube driving isn't any better. You'll have to sign up here and there, get various programs, disable your AI and most probably won't even have a controller anywhere near you.

However, I like things like FSEconomy and FSAirlines, which add a bit of competition and purpose to the whole "commercial" flying in MSFS via an online community and an economy system.
The best thing about them is that I can still fly like I usually do - offline, with Radar Contact running and tons of AI.
To be honest, I couldn't care less if that contrail crossing my path is Bernd from Munich or a generic AI pilot. They're both just callsigns and flight numbers. As soon as they've passed me, they're gone both from my view and from my mind.

FS skies belong to me and my AI alone.

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 17:36
WOW, I am already amazed at the Poll numbers. The servers I fly on always seem to have pretty good participation, not huge mind you, but decent numbers.
This is where the option for what method of MP most people use might also play into why they don't fly online much. Some folks are passionate about VATSIM, just think it's the only way to go, but most that I talk to online gave it shot and said "no thanks". . .Reason? VATSIM controllers are a mix of retired ATC, current ATC, Licensed Pilots and folks who just get into the whole ATC concept. On all accounts I think that's awesome because you know the majority of those folks have been there. What I found from personal experience and discussions with others is that VATSIM isn't someplace you can just pop into, setup a flight and enjoy the flight time. These guys expect you to know the ATC system and adhere to it and if you don't. . ."please stay out of the way". Bam. . .I'm outta there, I have enough pressure on a day to day basis without having to have a glass of Alka-Seltzer at the ready when I'm flying online, lol.

So, that may be one reason that some folks step away from online flying, if they think that every server is going to be some form of what they heard VATSIM is like.

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:39
Yeah I tried VATSIM for a little bit. It isn't really my thing. I'd prefer to have fun with a group of friends on gamespy, direct connect, or FSHost. Teamspeak is also nice...

PRB
August 10th, 2009, 17:42
Never have done MP in FSX, but love it in FS9. I won’t fly FS anything in window mode, and you can only fly MP in FSX if you fly in window mode. That’s a deal breaker, so I do MP only in FS9.
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MP is what has made FS loads of fun for me. We sometimes hear talk of “immersion” in FS. Well, for me, MP has made FS “immersive”. Talking to my on-line flying shipmates is fun!

blazefox2
August 10th, 2009, 17:43
i flew with a lot of virtual militaries only recently to leave that area behind but i try my best to at least go onto a few sessions with freinds although since the move i doubt i will get much if at all online flying for a while

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 17:49
Bjoern brings up another facet of MP Flight (this isn't a swing at you either Bjoern). His only venture into MP flight was back during FS98 when a group got together and after take off immediately went their separate ways. . .I don't blame you for thinking "is that it?", lol.
An example of an organized MP flight would be the folks at WSP (World's Serious Pilots). Every Wednesday evening they get together for a group flight, usually at least an hour in duration and most of the time everyone is flying the same airplane. They have a set flightplan, everyone knows the route, altitude, airspeed, etc and real world weather. Off they go and all use TS for Comm, so there's chatter going on almost non-stop. Bill Holland's NJ Short Hops is another place that always has a good group of pilots flying as well as Figs Hops and a few others. Things have changed since FS98.

CG_1976
August 10th, 2009, 17:49
WOW, I am already amazed at the Poll numbers. The servers I fly on always seem to have pretty good participation, not huge mind you, but decent numbers.
This is where the option for what method of MP most people use might also play into why they don't fly online much. Some folks are passionate about VATSIM, just think it's the only way to go, but most that I talk to online gave it shot and said "no thanks". . .Reason? VATSIM controllers are a mix of retired ATC, current ATC, Licensed Pilots and folks who just get into the whole ATC concept. On all accounts I think that's awesome because you know the majority of those folks have been there. What I found from personal experience and discussions with others is that VATSIM isn't someplace you can just pop into, setup a flight and enjoy the flight time. These guys expect you to know the ATC system and adhere to it and if you don't. . ."please stay out of the way". Bam. . .I'm outta there, I have enough pressure on a day to day basis without having to have a glass of Alka-Seltzer at the ready when I'm flying online, lol.

So, that may be one reason that some folks step away from online flying, if they think that every server is going to be some form of what they heard VATSIM is like.

That is the whole reason why i choose to fly over at RWATC. You can actually enjoy your flight time and ATC in harmony.

GT182
August 10th, 2009, 17:50
Voted Rarely. Haven't flown FSX MP, but I used to do weekly missions with IL2. Hope that counts a little. ;)

I used to fly MP on HyperLobby, but IP to IP is better overall with less problems. And we used TeamSpeak for coms.

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:54
I know it is a bit farfetched but I think it would be cool to make a Sim Outhouse multiplayer group... :kilroy:

We have such a nice community here. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to extend it from the internet into the simulator...

bkeske
August 10th, 2009, 17:55
Those who are answering "Never", could you please elaborate why? This poll is mostly targeted at you.

I fly very structured flight plans most the time, concentrating on as much realism as possible (flying by 'the rules', observing correct altitude, space, etc.). Plus, when I fly, it is my 'personal get away time'. Finally, I never remember my father or his pilot buddies ever going up to fly in formation (or whatever), so it just has no interest to me. I just cannot relate to it based on my real world flying experiance. I suppose dad would have done this in the Air Force, obviously, but he never allowed me to join him back in those days :icon_lol:

hobofat
August 10th, 2009, 17:55
I don't fly MP because my free time for flying in the simulator is quite erratic, and never seems to align with most people's multiplayer schedules. This might partially be my timezone (GMT -10), but even so, I fly when I'm willing to devote what little freetime I have to flying, and that pops up at the weirdest of times these days.

glennc
August 10th, 2009, 17:57
I never fly MP for several reasons:

I think I'm a reasonably proficient FS pilot and I'd rather not have anyone else tell me otherwise.

My FS machine is about five feet from the couch where my wife is when she's home. She wouldn't understand the conversation over the head set, and it would interfere with her watching TV or on the phone - not to mention, "Why can't you talk to me?". In the real airplane is one thing. In the living room is another.

I don't want the structure. Again, real aviation is one thing, the simulator is another. In the simulator, I can be as procedurally correct as I want, or not. If I have only a few minutes and I want to cut it short, I can just do a straight in approach that I would never even think of for real.

Most of my flights last less than an hour. 30 - 45 minutes isn't unusual, neither is 15 -20.

And, I'm just too lazy to set it up.

Glenn

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 17:59
I don't want the structure. Again, real aviation is one thing, the simulator is another. In the simulator, I can be as procedurally correct as I want, or not. If I have only a few minutes and I want to cut it short, I can just do a straight in approach that I would never even think of for real.

A LOT of people seem to have this impression. You don't have ANY structure when flying around with just your friends. Usually it's flying formation or practicing navigation. There seems to be a generalization that all multiplayer is strict like VATSIM.

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 18:02
Ok, one more plug for MP and I'll quit, lol. Time zones can be a back breaker when you are trying to setup a coordinated weekly or more often MP flight online. Right after Lago released their MB-339, a group of us (about 10) got together and started flying 3 times a week. At that time I was working night shift so we flew from about 9am CST til around noon I guess and we did that for almost 2 years before Lago finally decided to pretend like no body existed anymore and we were forced to go our separate ways. I set up a server using FSHost and a TS server for Comm and we flew and had a blast. Pilots in that group were from Italy, Scotland, Israel, Canada, Great Britain and the US. The club we had organized, called "The Flight Zone", had as a total membership over 280 pilots. . .10 flew every week. . .the same 10. The reasons for such a small participation were endless, but mostly because the times we flew, it was difficult for them to make it. So time zones play into why some folks don't bother.

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 18:07
. . . . . My FS machine is about five feet from the couch where my wife is when she's home. She wouldn't understand the conversation over the head set, and it would interfere with her watching TV or on the phone - not to mention, "Why can't you talk to me?". In the real airplane is one thing. In the living room is another. . . . . .
Glenn
Oh man Glenn, the puter needs a new home, lol.

mike_cyul
August 10th, 2009, 18:17
I'm sort of with N2056 on this - there's only so many hours in a day, and making planes is veeery time consuming.

The times I have flown have been nice, however. The last time, I just casually entered a room, and found these guys flying formation in the Grumman Goose, in a strait line, on and on, and so I joined in and no one said anything. They were all talking with each other, and eventually I realized I was with a group of long-distance truckers, who were, I'm pretty sure, flying together from their cabs as they were parked for the night. Then the flying style sort of fit in, I thought. It was nice to be a part of it. :)

Mike

MCDesigns
August 10th, 2009, 18:34
I tried MP in FS9 and the actual visuals really put me off, non turning rotors, hide and seek mesh, making sure everyone had the same addons. Is FSX any better?

If so, I'd love to hook up, what are the things needed, especially for voice?

I'm wiith Glenn, no desire for any kind of structure, but more scenarios and such.

glennc
August 10th, 2009, 18:37
Ed, roger - but I want to be where the big TV is, too. I added another observation about the length of most of my flights - short.

Kiwikat, I guess I understand that. I have a feeling if I ever did it, I'd get hooked. Most of my week day flying is in two windows about an hour and a half wide so that limits availability.

One of the reasons I love these forums is conversations like this.

Glenn

Kiwikat
August 10th, 2009, 18:39
I tried MP in FS9 and the actual visuals really put me off, non turning rotors, hide and seek mesh, making sure everyone had the same addons. Is FSX any better?

If so, I'd love to hook up, what are the things needed, especially for voice?

FSX's multiplayer fixes most rotors and problems like that. Rarely you'll run into an issue, but I'd say it works about 95% of the time. You only play hide and seek if your fellow simmers are using different mesh. Even then, it is rarely a problem.

As for voice, download teamspeak. It isn't required though as FSX has its own voice transmission, however I find it to be far too quiet to be useful. Teamspeak always works better.


Kiwikat, I guess I understand that. I have a feeling if I ever did it, I'd get hooked. Most of my week day flying is in two windows about an hour and a half wide so that limits availability.

Most of my flights on multiplayer are less than an hour or are broken up into smaller hops.

THibben
August 10th, 2009, 18:41
Have never flown MP. I don't have the slightest idea how and guess I have never had the urge to try.

Tom

spotlope
August 10th, 2009, 18:57
I've flown MP maybe three times in six years, so I voted "never" (that's pretty close to never). The primary reasons are that I tend to fly on a whim here and there when I can squeeze it in between development sessions and the rest of real life, and secondarily that every time I've tried it, it's been a huge pain from a software and setup perspective. My rig, which is tuned very nicely for single player flights, seems to develop all new quirks when I join a MP flight. Consequently, I tend to take the easy way out and just fly alone.

I love the concept of MP flying, but the execution still leaves a lot to be desired IMO. Not counting it out for the future, though.

Lotus
August 10th, 2009, 19:16
Haven't flown singleplayer for pleasure in 3 years, not once. Can't be bothered, it just holds no attraction for me anymore. I didn't do much single in FS9 either. The two most memorable multi flights for me were both round-the-world hops. One in FS9 with two Spitfires (96 legs, 160 hours to complete) and the other the exact opposite, five SR-71s (12 legs, 13 hours of magnificent mach 3.2 mayhem). :)

I wish I could still enjoy singleplayer flight, but I get bored silly in about 5 mins, but then I've been using FS nonstop for 22 years haha. :)

Oh and my sessions have zero structure or rules. Put on some good tunes, pick a destination, blast through the mountains and have a cool philosophical discussion with my friends on whatever comes to mind. Sometimes we go for serious realism, sometimes we just do whatever we like, but I love it all. :)

Wish I had more time for them lately.


-Mike

HeyChief
August 10th, 2009, 20:21
Haven't flown MP for about 2 years now.
Did it all the time on the WSP servers with falcon and the rest of the gang.
My power supply burned up and it gave me a chance to get back into photography.
But now that I'm fully retired, I'll have the chance to do some online flying again.
I marked "rarely", but that will change in the weeks ahead.

HC

jetstreamsky
August 10th, 2009, 20:27
I fly MP once a week with a friend, I enjoy it immensely there`s something special about jumping in one kind of flying machine or other and just striking out somewhere different in the world. The shared experience and the views with two craft flying together over some interesting scenery is just great, perhaps the best flights are ridge soaring in the DG808S glider or the Genesis, you`ve got to work just that little bit more to stay aloft and together. The experience changes too whether it some GA machine, helicopters, gliders or even heavy metal navigating somewhere in foul weather.

Hanimichal
August 10th, 2009, 21:39
2.)
Multiplyer often flying.
because I prefer live real people in the trafic
And I´m not pilot and never be one. i'm only gamer and I like play with others :ernae:

3.)
I dont know

GameSpy: Hanibal__111

falcon409
August 10th, 2009, 21:43
Oh well, I just spent about 10m minutes typing a long winded response to what we've seen on the poll and instructions on how to get into an MP session using FSHost Client and Team Speak and I look up and the stupid browser closed on me. Geeeze Louise.

Oh well, if anyone is interested (and it would appear that's not the case, lol), download FSHost Client and Team Speak and Kiwikat or myself or anyone else who wishes to can answer any questions about getting up and running.

Thanks Kiwikat for a really eye opening poll. . .I'm still a bit zonked by the poor numbers for true MP aficionados. Hey, maybe when I wake up tomorrow morning we'll be ahead, lol.

Francois
August 10th, 2009, 22:15
I used to do it quite often and even have a MP server running still with some 10 groups on it using it.....

But I simply don't have the time anymore. It requires planning, for me usually at odd ours (being most people I know are in the US and I am in Western Europe), it requires a stable PC (which I have not due to teh many add-on projects and other work I do on it), and it requires some peace to sit down and 'waste' a few hours on others.

Waste of course is a joke... it was really fun while it lasted, for many years, but can't afford it now.

Still, I hope to see more people doing it again... it adds a separate facet to the simming.

Overshoe
August 10th, 2009, 22:17
I voted "never." One man's pleasure is another man's pain. I flew MP in FS9 for a year or so, but it was hit or miss and in the end seemed more like work than fun so I quit. I enjoyed flying with 2-3 friends on the one server with teamspeak, but that server went away and I never got comfortable anywhere else.
With FSX, the effort has not seemed worth it, although one of my close friends has started flying online so who knows?
Why don't more people fly online? Some don't know they can, some can't figure it out, some can't be bothered, some played all the missions and beat the game and tossed it in the corner, some don't have the equipment, some don't have the time, some have been insulted or abused. As many reasons as people I guess.

SpaceWeevil
August 10th, 2009, 23:16
Another MP virgin here. I tend to squeeze in short flights in the gaps between family, romance and music. Many times I've been at Duxford on non-show days and the Corsair or one of the Spits is trundled out for an air test and a short practice display - that's what I do most of the time.

The other issue is good old British "broadband." With my blistering IP profile of 1750kbps and two teenage daughters sharing my wireless connection, I barely have the bandwith for e-mail.

Nick C
August 10th, 2009, 23:21
In FS9 I used to fly on-line all the time, either on the Emma Field server (thanks Francois) or on occasion when that was down, on Netwings. Always with FSHost. The EFC server always used to have a few friendly people kicking around as did the Netwings server, although I preferred the EFC server as it was password protected and I wasn't asked "hey look at me landing on this roof in my 747" all the time...well except when members were drunk! :icon29:

Then FSX divided the community and the servers grew quiet. Wheras before you could just fire up FSHost and Teamspeak and join a like minded bunch (of nutters usually), any MP event had to be planned otherwise you'd be on your own. So after a short while you stop dropping by the servers.

FSX - Gamespy. I took part in my first MP session in quite awhile on Sunday afternoon with Ian Pearson. We loaded up Gamespy and ran the L-39 in shared cockpit mode. I certainly had a blast. However, I had the sim set up to start Multiplayer in the Bushflying room where it's much quieter, but when I swapped to the Freeflight room afterwards to see what was going on, I was almost immediately kicked out. It took me 15 attempts to get logged back onto MP long enough to switch to the Bushflying room where it seems more stable.

Now in three weeks I won't remember tooling around having fun with a mate, I'll remember the bruise on my head which occurred while trying to log onto Gamespy.

So what about FSHost? It was excellent with FS9 and most likely still is, but it never worked as well with FSX and the lag stutters made it unusable in my eyes.

So to summarise, I love flying in MP, but I've found the environment in which I have to do it severely lacking. Sad really as I've never really enjoyed flying in the sim very much since I stopped flying FS9 in multiplayer.

Nick C
August 10th, 2009, 23:29
...eventually I realized I was with a group of long-distance truckers, who were, I'm pretty sure, flying together from their cabs as they were parked for the night. Then the flying style sort of fit in, I thought.

That makes me wonder how other professions would fly. What about those from the 'oldest profession', would they be bouncing and weaving all over the place, their engines screaming and groaning? Perhaps that's for another thread though. :d

Kiwikat
August 11th, 2009, 00:15
Thanks for the responses everyone. Keep them coming. It sounds like we could have enough interest to get a SOH group together. :monkies:

gigabyte
August 11th, 2009, 00:20
I have always wanted to try multi player, but my main issue has been communication, really my problem is the sound quality of pc headsets. Being deaf and using a cochlear implant (which is WONDERFUL technology believe me) makes things like this hard, in order to get a headset that will work well with the implant means $$$ and I really can't justify the cost to just try it out. I do most of my flying with no sound at all and enjoy it very much.

jankees
August 11th, 2009, 00:56
Have never flown MP. I don't have the slightest idea how and guess I have never had the urge to try.

Tom

the same for me.
Apart from that, I paint aircraft, make test flights and continue painting..

2Low
August 11th, 2009, 03:28
1/ Done

2/ I voted never because although I've tried 4 or 5 times I was never able to succesfully stay logged on for more than 10 seconds or so. Very frustrating.

3/ I think many of the reasons people don't have already been hit on;

-don't know how (succesfully)
-don't know you can
-fear of being criticized for piloting ability
-been treated rudely in past mp experiences
-no set free time
-time zone/planning issues
-some use FS as an escape from everything and want to be alone
-fear it's too structured
-just plane shy (pun intended)
-for some the anomilies (seeing a 747 rather than a B-17), mesh issues, etc are too annoying
-no head set, slow typer
-don't know anyone else who does
-and on and on and on

I am very interested in MP but need help setting it up. I'm not a great pilot, don't know correct proceedures and navigation is something I could not figure out.

I'd like to fly with others for fun but also at times to learn. I learn better from listening, watching and doing along with the reading.

I've been using FSRecord to fly formation or play "follow the leader" but it would be more fun with others. I don't have a single friend into aeroplanes or simming so online flying would allow me to share this hobby with others.

If you start a group I'd join but would need help getting up and running. I don't have TrackIR but would purchase one soon if I could get multi player working.

Great poll.

Kiwikat
August 11th, 2009, 03:49
I'd be happy to give you a hand connecting to a server. PM me if you are interested sometime.

This also goes for anyone else that would like a hand with gamespy, FSHost, or Teamspeak.

Francois
August 11th, 2009, 04:16
I see a few people here who don't know HOW, both from a technical perspective and from a flying perspective.

We provided 'MP & Flying' lessons via the Emma Field Flying Club a few years ago and successfully got quite a few people to master both setting up multiplayer AND flying FS aircraft.

Key was to have a patient instructor, do it one-one-one or one-on-two (to get rid of the 'shy' thing) and to NOT make anything too formal.
Quite a few of the people who learned back then are the ones STILL flying MP today !

It was fun and rewarding to get people into this new aspect (to them) of simming and I wish I stil had the time to do it. But it DOES take time, especially with less computer-literate candidates...

flyinjake
August 11th, 2009, 04:18
My Dad and I have flown some MP in the past but over the last two years we have not. Seems like we are always on different paths plus my system and FSX have been fighting each other. When flying we would just pick an airport and pick a direction. We didnt fly in formation but we would generally head in the same direction.

An idea:
I would like to see some type of missions if possible. For example; I could go on a server and place my aircraft, or some other object, somewhere while others try to find it. Of course we would need to turn off markers so its not so easy to spot. Fly by and take a screen shot then post it back into a thread on SOH.

falcon409
August 11th, 2009, 05:29
Yea, good discussion going here to be sure. I wanted to post a few things to think about that folks can expect when setting up for Multiplayer Sessions using FSHost Client and Team Speak.

First off FSHost is used solely for FS9 MP Flights. . . .in FSX you must use FSHost Client which you can download on their website at
www.chocolatesoftware.com
In FS9 you don't have to remain in window mode to fly, but
in FSX you can only use window mode due to the chat window pop up. They have yet to figure a way to get it to show up with the view set to full. It's just the way it is so be aware of that.

Team Speak is used for Comm. You do not need TS to fly in Multiplayer. It's a great advantage, but I promise, you don't need it to fly. There is a chat box as part of FSHost Client that allows you to type your communications with other pilots. That comm scrolls across the top of the screen and everyone sees it.
The one big advantage to Team Speak is that while flying, you don't have to sit there typing while you're trying to set up to take off or land. So it does have it's advantages.

falcon409
August 11th, 2009, 05:41
Part 2, lol
Ok, one of the things that always bugged me about FS9 was that if you didn't have the same aircraft as the rest of the people flying and vise versa, you could be flying a tubeliner, but they would see you as a Cessna, lol. In FS9 you have to have the same aircraft and textures to see you partners correctly. A lot of times most were willing to switch prior to take off to something that everyone had, or something closer at least so you didn't have a 747 doing a hover over the rwy or setting down on top of a building, lol.

Well, with FSX (as long as everyone is flying FSX), you now have the option to select a player in the chatbox and then change the aircraft you see him flying into one you have in your hangar. Pretty cool actually, so flying dissimilar aircraft isn't as big a problem with FSX because you have the ability to change that. I know I saw a few who said the inability to see certain animations was a downer for them. There is a click box in FSX and FS9 Multiplayer setup that ensures that others can see your animations, That doesn't guarantee that every animated sequence can be seen (opening and closing canopies is one that doesn't always work), but generally flight control surfaces, lights and sometimes doors can be seen on other aircraft when animated.

falcon409
August 11th, 2009, 05:52
Part 3, on a roll here, lol
Setting up FSHost Client is very easy, you download the Client software, install it, adding an icon to the desktop or taskbar and then click it to open. The menu is pretty self explanatory, you just enter your call sign, the IP of the server you want to connect to, click search and when the server name comes up click on it and click "join". You're in and that will automatically bring up the chat window as well.

One area that can be a real pain here is if you are running a router. All the ports required by FSX and FSHost to run must be forwarded. If not, then either you'll be kicked off or you'll cause someone else to get kicked. Most admins on a server keep track of this and can usually tell who it is that didn't forward the correct ports, but not always, so look at the brand of router you have and check online to get into your routers setup and forward all the necessary ports. Chances are, if you've never flown MP or it has been a long time since you have and you are using a router this port forwarding will have to be done.

2Low
August 11th, 2009, 05:56
I see a few people here who don't know HOW, both from a technical perspective and from a flying perspective.

We provided 'MP & Flying' lessons via the Emma Field Flying Club a few years ago and successfully got quite a few people to master both setting up multiplayer AND flying FS aircraft.

Key was to have a patient instructor, do it one-one-one or one-on-two (to get rid of the 'shy' thing) and to NOT make anything too formal.
Quite a few of the people who learned back then are the ones STILL flying MP today !

It was fun and rewarding to get people into this new aspect (to them) of simming and I wish I stil had the time to do it. But it DOES take time, especially with less computer-literate candidates...



That sounds great! I do want to fly just for fun but would definately like to learn from more knowledgable people. I tried teaching myself navigation but didn't get anywhere.

@Kiwikat, PM comming soon (few minutes).

edit-typo

falcon409
August 11th, 2009, 06:03
Part 4,
Team Speak as mentioned above IS NOT REQUIRED. The obvious advantage however is that you can simply talk while flying (very natural) and enjoy what's going on around you. The only disadvantage might be in getting your headset/mic or desktop mic setup correctly. TS can be a bit quirky in that respect.
Installation is no problem, very similar to FSHost Client. You simply install the program, add an icon on the desktop or taskbar and click to open. The easiest way to initially get into team speak is to use the "quick connect" option. You input your call sign, the IP address you want to connect to (many times it's the same one being used for the MP session itself), click join and you're in. Once in though be aware that you may have entered the "dead zone", lol. You can hear everyone else, but they can't hear you. It's quite common and usually, if at least you can hear them, you can get the setup tuned in correctly and you're good to go. It can take some time though, so be aware that this is one area that may take a bit of tweaking before it's setup correctly. In the long run though, way better than having to type the whole time you're flying.

Tweek
August 11th, 2009, 06:35
I voted rarely, seeing as half the time I simply can't be bothered with anything more than a quick 20 minute flight on my own. But, I've got nothing against using multiplayer, and in fact some of the best sessions I've had in FS have been on multiplayer. I'd support the MP group if it got going.

FSHost would be good if it was as smooth as Gamespy. Currently flying with FSHost is akin to flying in FS9 multiplayer - jerky and certainly not smooth enough for formation flying. However Gamespy is a pain the arse seeing as you can't seem to change your aircraft, or very many settings at all as a matter of fact (display, weather, time, etc etc) unless you come out of the flight and reload it all. That can get extremely annoying!

Reddog
August 11th, 2009, 08:39
I voted often because I only fly online anymore,offline only if testing something. started back with joining Margarita Air Club and doing it ever since. I host the 2 FSHostservers for the club plus also fly on Alaska Winds server and FSVintage server. Nice thing about FSX is if u are the only one on the server and want company u and use the Sim AI traffic and it's ATC if u want. Can't do that with FS9 thou.
As for the other questions they have been pretty well covered already.

mike_cyul
August 11th, 2009, 08:44
That makes me wonder how other professions would fly. What about those from the 'oldest profession', would they be bouncing and weaving all over the place, their engines screaming and groaning? Perhaps that's for another thread though. :d

Perhaps a lot of 'touch-and-go's' ? :engel016:

Mike

Kowalski65
August 11th, 2009, 08:49
I voted never, as I have never had a decent enough connection untill I moved recently(it's still not perfect, but it's faster than it was!) I loved your P-51 fly in, Kiwikat, and would love to do some more like it, it was unlike what I expected, as that had put me off-I was maybe expecting too much rigid ATC, also I dont think I fly that well, and also mainly being generally shy of intruding into a group that may well be. for all I know, an established group of mates that dont want a stranger in their midst.

But if someone organises a fly in like the P51 one, or a regular session then I will do my damndest to be there :ernae:

Cazzie
August 11th, 2009, 09:21
I use to fly multi-player with my brother, until my computer outzipped his and he cannot fly FSX at all.

Like many others in this community, I find greater pleasure in creating than playing/flying. Like Banana Bob, I have acquired a hand at making prop washes and I have been doing repaints since FS2002. With my appreciation of aviation history and with so many historical planes and scenery that are available for FS9 and FSX (no longer do FS8), I am a hopeless addict! :kilroy:

BTW gang, I just got back up from a terrible MB fry when lightning ran in on my tower four weeks ago this past Sunday. It has been a Dante's Inferno too broad to mention.

But by the will of God and no thanks to the technician (let's not get into that, my BP rises) at Tiger Direct/COMPUSA, I have everything back up and running and both flight sims and all add-ons up and operable. I have yet to install Bill Lyon's blessing, GW3, but that is in the planning too, disk laid out. I have yet to install many of my favorite add-on aircraft. Lionheart, I may need your help again on the payware keys. However, I have most of my stuff from the past year backed up on an external HD (best purchase I ever made).

Anyhow, it's so good to be back and have a rhyme and reason to do repaints, etc. again. After seeing Ito-San's Whirlwind again, I didn't even look for the CD zip, I went straight to the link. So what, I added two Rolls-Royce Merlins to my sound package! Sue me! :jump::icon_lol:

Caz

Piglet and Bill Womack, double thanks:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/plumisland_1.jpg

ryanbatc
August 11th, 2009, 09:54
I use MP mainly for VATSIM, and vatsim is only about 10% of my flying.

The rest of the MP is screwing around on Gamespy (when I can actually connect, because I get booted 50% of the time lame)

I would play more if GS wasn't so laggy and buggy

mfitch
August 11th, 2009, 14:45
Other than connecting two of my own computers a few times, I have never used multiplayer. The primary reasons are probably the following.

My piloting skills are not good enough to be safe in multiplayer unless I stay a long ways away from everybody.

I prefer to fly near my actual residence (Anchorage) with little interest in other locations (except for carrier operations).

My schedule, like others who have responded, usually means I do a lot of 30 minute flights. These are squeezed into spare moments.

I have never been described as overly social. In a couple weeks I will meet 130+ needy people. After work hours I would rather have only my wife around.

Kiwikat
August 11th, 2009, 15:22
I have never been described as overly social.

I've got to be one of the most antisocial people on earth. :icon_lol:

It is still really fun getting to know the people you talk to on forums a little more.

Lotus
August 11th, 2009, 15:27
Kiwikat's poll here has had some really interesting responses, it's been very enlightening to read.

Aside from the drawbacks of gamespy, which admittedly is finicky to say the least, and certainly no friend of mine this week, I think that most of the concerns about multiplayer would be solved simply by finding a good group of people to fly with.

In my experience the types of sessions around are as varied as everyones' personalities. They range from screaming kids ripping around in F-18s to hardcore ATC sessions and anything you can imagine inbetween.

To find a good group of people to fly with means wading through all of this, the good, the bad, and the ugly, so you have to get your riot shield out for the first little while, but when you finally find those people, ones whose attitudes and schedules line up with your own, man there's just nothing like it. In my experience though most people don't judge each others' flying skills. I can't remember ever running across it actually, and I've done a LOT of mp flying!

The road wasn't easy in finding my 'place' in the multiplayer world, but now that I've found it I can just never go back to solo flight. I've met so many cool people all around the world through it. A couple of them have become really excellent friends too, people I communicate with all the time outside of FSX, and I wouldn't trade that for the world.

Socially I consider myself a bit of hermit really, hehe, but in multi I'm all for meeting new people. And besides, in reality it's not always easy to disengage from a situation you don't enjoy, but in MP, the disconnect button is right there. :)

-Mike

Bjoern
August 12th, 2009, 08:37
An example of an organized MP flight would be the folks at WSP (World's Serious Pilots). Every Wednesday evening they get together for a group flight, usually at least an hour in duration and most of the time everyone is flying the same airplane. They have a set flightplan, everyone knows the route, altitude, airspeed, etc and real world weather. Off they go and all use TS for Comm, so there's chatter going on almost non-stop.

Well, the only difference to a normal flight is that there's real chatter via Teamspeak.
To me, this simply isn't worth the effort (install TS, install GameSpy, get a Gamespy account, set up everything, etc...). If I want in-flight entertainment I just read while cruising along or get out my laptop and do something else.

Don't get me wrong though, I normally like multiplayer modes in games (been an avid online player of BF1942: Forgotten Hope and Joint Operations), but MSFS is a big "no-no" for me.

In other games, like shooters or strategy titles, you got an entirely different experience in multiplayer, since the all-seeing, all-knowing AI is replaced by humans will all their benefits and drawbacks. You die way more often since your opponents usually aim better, but at the same time you can employ ambush tactics and combat behaviour learned in your military days which work out since you usually won't be seen behind shrubs, trees and walls.
In MSFS, well it's just standard phraseology and the occasional nonstandard comment. Worth the effort? For others yes, for me no.

falcon409
August 12th, 2009, 09:18
Well, the only difference to a normal flight is that there's real chatter via Teamspeak.
To me, this simply isn't worth the effort (install TS, install GameSpy, get a Gamespy account, set up everything, etc...). If I want in-flight entertainment I just read while cruising along or get out my laptop and do something else.

Don't get me wrong though, I normally like multiplayer modes in games (been an avid online player of BF1942: Forgotten Hope and Joint Operations), but MSFS is a big "no-no" for me.

In other games, like shooters or strategy titles, you got an entirely different experience in multiplayer, since the all-seeing, all-knowing AI is replaced by humans will all their benefits and drawbacks. You die way more often since your opponents usually aim better, but at the same time you can employ ambush tactics and combat behaviour learned in your military days which work out since you usually won't be seen behind shrubs, trees and walls.
In MSFS, well it's just standard phraseology and the occasional nonstandard comment. Worth the effort? For others yes, for me no.
No comment. . .to each his own Bjoern.

Kiwikat
August 12th, 2009, 13:50
To me, this simply isn't worth the effort (install TS, install GameSpy, get a Gamespy account, set up everything, etc...)

In other games, like shooters or strategy titles, you got an entirely different experience in multiplayer

The time it takes to do those things you said is about what it takes to get FSX loaded... maybe even the time it takes to boot your computer if its slow. So the amount of effort and or time is completely irrelevant.

As for the multiplayer experience, I think it is very different from single player. Adding even a little interaction when there used to be none is a big deal imho.

But as falcon said, whatever floats your boat. I know I can't change peoples' minds whom are already set. There do seem to be several people who have responded that may be interested in learning though. Hopefully we can set up a session and we can introduce more people to the multiplayer world.

BTW, Falcon, did you get my PM?

Reddog
August 12th, 2009, 16:46
The time it takes to do those things you said is about what it takes to get FSX loaded... maybe even the time it takes to boot your computer if its slow. So the amount of effort and or time is completely irrelevant.

As for the multiplayer experience, I think it is very different from single player. Adding even a little interaction when there used to be none is a big deal imho.

But as falcon said, whatever floats your boat. I know I can't change peoples' minds whom are already set. There do seem to be several people who have responded that may be interested in learning though. Hopefully we can set up a session and we can introduce more people to the multiplayer world.

BTW, Falcon, did you get my PM?

Since i have 2 servers already set up would be willing to use one of them for a session if interested. PM me if u want.

Bjoern
August 13th, 2009, 07:41
No comment. . .to each his own Bjoern.

I know. Just wanted to elaborate...a bit more. :d

dswo
August 13th, 2009, 08:14
The summer before FSX came out, I flew on VATSIM almost every day; learned a lot. Then FSX came out, sans SquawkBox, and I never got back in the habit. Coordinating timezones and locations is part of the problem; a lot of my flying is for reviews, and if it's a scenery review, my flying is pretty localized.

Z-PurpleBubble
August 13th, 2009, 08:39
I just voted "never" merely for the fact that online flying is laggy to me... Probably my connection.

I'm also a bit of a solitary person and a very bad pilot.

guzler
March 26th, 2011, 11:21
I tried setting up multiplayer following instructions on here some time ago, but got completely lost when trying to understand how to open ports, god knows what else and never did get online. I used to play CFS2 alot online and it was so much simpler then even on dial up !

If it can be made easy, I would have a dabble on multiplayer, but my previous experience put me off even trying again.

guzler
March 26th, 2011, 11:25
Part 3, on a roll here, lol

One area that can be a real pain here is if you are running a router. All the ports required by FSX and FSHost to run must be forwarded. If not, then either you'll be kicked off or you'll cause someone else to get kicked. Most admins on a server keep track of this and can usually tell who it is that didn't forward the correct ports, but not always, so look at the brand of router you have and check online to get into your routers setup and forward all the necessary ports. Chances are, if you've never flown MP or it has been a long time since you have and you are using a router this port forwarding will have to be done.

This is where I got lost last time. I really didn't understand what I was doing here.

Meshman
March 26th, 2011, 12:01
I voted for Never, as it's been a looonnnngggg time for me. In FS9 I flew online with some friends, one living in Spain at the time. For FSX I use to have Sunday morning flights with a guy from Greece, which allowed for the time differences. He was worried about flying online because of his accent and "almost" 100% understanding/use of English. I just told him to listen to my Greek for a second... <long pause> ... and said if he didn't make fun of my lack of Greek-speak, I wouldn't make fun of his English. We got along well on those Sunday excursions.

When I fly nowadays it's to check out WIP or already made scenery. Some people have some of my stuff, Don :wavey: or eD wELLES, so if anyone ever wanted a tourist guide I'd be happy to adjust my schedule. Hoping as life settles back down to it's normal, boring ways that opportunities might arise in the future.

But should that day come..., there is a valid reason some of my Spanish-speaking friends call me "Loco Gringo"!

falcon409
March 26th, 2011, 12:51
This is where I got lost last time. I really didn't understand what I was doing here.
Yep, I got rid of my router after I dropped one PC from my setup and was glad of that. It took me a bit to figure out the port forwarding as well. One option would be to get Team Speak setup and then get on the TS Server when Dave or one of the other knowledgeable folks are online in the evenings. They could probably walk you through the process and get you setup.:salute:

flyinjake
March 26th, 2011, 17:07
I have started flying on the sim-outhouse server quite frequently. Have noticed some others but other than my Dad I have not flown with anyone else. If people are interested I can be found online and on TeamSpeak3.

The initial setup takes some time but once you have it installed and setup its easy to get on FSHost.

Jake

b52bob
March 26th, 2011, 17:15
Don't

limited bandwidth

Ferry_vO
March 27th, 2011, 05:16
I use the SOH FsHost quite often, but not as much as I used to fly on the Netwings server. Would love to see more Europeans on the SOH server in the evening though!
Flying hoplists is fun, but it's even more fun when you have someone to chat with.

c87
March 28th, 2011, 18:43
I fly about 1 hour max per week, if that, given family and life constraints. The only reason I'd want to fly multiplayer is for formation flying. Flying around with other "live" flyers that are miles away does nothing for me. Given all that, there's no reason for me to do anything other than offline flying.

falcon409
March 28th, 2011, 21:33
My first excursion into online "Multiplayer" was with Lago in 2003 I guess and what was true then is still true today: Those who have tried MP flying and enjoyed it, immersed themselves in all the gadgets available be it TeamSpeak, Vatsim, FSHost, Virtual Air Force, Virtual Bush or Virtual whatever have found it rewarding, fun, relaxing, informative and while there may be times that it becomes somewhat boring and they take a hiatus. . .they still return in like numbers and pick up where they left off.

Those who tried it and either found it immediately boring, couldn't connect and got discouraged, didn't have a mic or headset, didn't like having to type in the chat box, didn't have the time, didn't like that animations couldn't be seen or the proper aircraft wasn't visible, lived in the wrong time zone or any number of other reasons for not trying it or staying with it will, for the most part, continue to have those negative reactions to the concept of MP. It's why there were so many who seemed to get excited at the idea of an SOH Flight Server and why so few actually take advantage of it now that it's reality.

Willy and PRB and Taco and several others have "Flight19" which takes off every evening to some far flung destination. Dangerous Dave and a few others are always on the main Hoplist servers most evenings either flying a hoplist or two or doing free flights or setting up a flight plan on the fly and heading out. Plenty of opportunities for folks who would like to get a grasp of what MP is about to ask some experts and join the fun. I'm sure those guys would take a few minutes or the time necessary to get you up and running.

Bottom line is, if you've made up your mind that MP is a waste, nothing we say will probably change that, even though we would disagree wholeheartedly, so it's great that you participated and voted to let kiwikat see the numbers and the reasons.
On the other hand if you're on the fence and just need a little push to come join MP, then by all means, connect on Team Speak sometime and let those guys give you the assistance you need to get you up and flying. The information you need can be found in the Flight Server Forums and you can post questions to Dave and the group there to get on board. Hope to see you soon in the MP skies.:salute:

Kiwikat
March 28th, 2011, 22:27
I am kind of surprised this thread popped back into existence!

I've been flying a lot lately at Eagle Valley Air, a bush-flying virtual airline, so I haven't been on the SOH servers as much lately. It is nice to see that there are still a few people enjoying my world hops. I really should spend some more time back on the SOH server... :wiggle:

OleBoy
March 29th, 2011, 20:22
My vote. Never/Not enough to mention.

Not that I wouldn't like MP. To me it would a BS session more than flying. Always has, and always did turn out that way. Don't get me wrong, I've spent my fair share of time on teamspeak. And for the most part I enjoy it. We're all here with common interest. The love of flight. Whatever form that may be is the reason we're here. We're all alike, somewhat.
.....Something that always twisted my noodle was the flying...with others. If you didn't have the model they had, they were all a cessna. And, verse-visa. That was the big clincher for me. As I was not going to buy the same aircraft someone else had just to make the experience seem to have more realism. I got my planes that I like already. I know, there's freeware. Some darn nice freeware too. Either way you look at it someone almost always had to submit. That was the case with me anyway.

As for the online virtual flying, that type of stuff is not to my likings. I like to fly in any direction I please and take off whenever I feel.

I think I answered 1, 2 & 3. Though I may have gotten a bit loose lipped. My apology.

fsafranek
March 31st, 2011, 19:09
I voted "never/not often enough to mention" as well because I don't do it much anymore. Back in FS9 I used to do it a lot with folks from the old Alphasim forum using the server time donated by Ukmil and Netwings. We had a great time flying around Rosie Roads NAS in Puerto Rico and the freeware Big-E parked nearby. But that was a few years ago.

I've done it a few times since then to test out the multiplayer worthiness of aircraft. Mal998 and I reworked the B-66 and A-3 FSX flight models while in multiplayer. I guess that's the big benefit to it now -- chatting with other folks while flying and testing ideas.

Not a big fan of flying from point A to B in a formation although have certainly done a lot of that over the years. Mock dogfights are what I like.
:ernae:

gradyhappyg
March 31st, 2011, 22:02
Those who are answering "Never", could you please elaborate why? This poll is mostly targeted at you.

I am too dumb to figure out how.:jump:

mmann
April 1st, 2011, 06:06
I voted never. Most of my so called FSX time is spent in ADE, 3ds Max and Photoshop; developing scenery. My development computer is not hooked up to the internet, so when I am testing my scenery projects in FSX, flying with others is not an option.

Regards, Mike Mann

wombat666
April 1st, 2011, 08:32
Never bothered either.
Mostly as a result of online flying in CFS3 against pre-pubescent brats way back and a lack of time into the bargain.
:173go1:

Dimus
April 18th, 2012, 05:54
I voted rarely because although it has been great fun whenever I did it, I do not have the opportunities lately. Actually I only fly online with a selected group of friends, the same group that we also fly Il-2 and ROF together. FSX is our sim of choice when we want to have a relaxing session. We always connect directly to our host and use TS3 for comms. Our host chooses a scenario, or sometimes we fly missions, especially when we want to practice carrier ops using moving carriers. I have made simple MP missions for that with a carrier moving close to shore at various places. We also do a lot of GA flying and glider flying together. Nothing serious and no real rules apply in our sessions, it really is just for fun. It is also a good way to train people to fly as a plane can be shared and controls switched between trainee and instructor.

JAllen
April 18th, 2012, 09:25
My day is full enough putting up with people I have to put up with. My flying/gaming is for me and not for the entertainment of other anonymous personalities. Tried it years ago and never will again. Participating in this forum is as far as I will go. Some of the stuff here makes me re-think that decision too.

My son likes to do MP but has had a lot of unpleasant attitudes get involved. He is a police officer and at times his MP experiences sound like his work.

guzler
April 18th, 2012, 09:26
Those who are answering "Never", could you please elaborate why? This poll is mostly targeted at you.

I couldn't figure out how to do it. All the talk about port openings and god knows what confused me and I gave up. I used to play CFS2 online and it was easy, login, join a flight and off you go (and that was on dial up !!).

Milton Shupe
April 18th, 2012, 09:28
I votely rarely (current flight status) although I probably have 2000 hours in MP frpm FS98, FS2000, and FS2002. Once I started development work, MP time went from occasional to rarely.

In the early days, a group of 5-6 friends would fly nightly for 2-3 hours and on weekends. We flew around the globe several times hitting all the continents, exploring mountainous scenery, challenging airstrips, culture, and sightseeing along the way. Our favorite was the American NW, BC, Alaska, and the Alps of Italy, France, Austria and Switzerland, and the Andes for its special high altitude challenges. There are very few areas I have not explored and enjoyed. We always flew what we all had or flew defaults to ease the experience for older computers. The group thing was great. We mostly were well versed in navigation and flying in poor weather and loved it. I used to do navigation training online through MP sessions. I was self-taught in FS98 and teh Charles Wood site. Having FSNavigator really helped comprehension giving a graphic to what the gauges were telling you.

Great comments above about why people do or do not fly MP; I have seen them all. But for those who wish to try, start with teamspeak and a nice little headset and boom mike from anywhere for less than $20. The guys on the SOH server will help get you setup.

Today, I rarely get on because my pleasures come from being creative with design work and sharing with the community. Flying is for testing now. I will say it is a blast to get online with Lionheart and a few of these folks for a brief flight around British Columbia or the Alps. Challenging, interesting, beautiful scenery, and great company.

I would be happy to join any group on occasion to share in the fun. Cheers. :wavey:

jankees
April 23rd, 2012, 22:23
I have never used MP.
Maybe it is fun, but I never bothered to find out how.
I spend most of my FS related time in Photoshop anyway, and if I fly, it is to see whether the lines on the different texture files line up and stuff like that.. I rarely even land, how weird is that?
Only very occasionally, I do a flight for fun, especially with new A2A models, to see if I can do it, keep them in one piece. Once I can, I go back to Photoshop...

Mickey D
April 25th, 2012, 14:05
I answered "never" in fact I never fly these days. I'm always in Slew Mode checking out the latest airfield. Occasionally I get them finished. I leave all the flying and testing to Frank and Bill.

I have a question Kiwikat. Why do you want to know? :kilroy: