OT best Brit and American commanders

[mongoose]

Being as it's still Summer; maybe not in the UK:pop4:, I thought I would start a poser.
IMHO
Brits: Cromwell
Malborough
Wellington
Dowding

American: Stilwell (if you don't know about "Vinegar Joe' read Barbara Tuchman's book "Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-45 (http://www.amazon.com/Stilwell-American-Experience-China-1911-45/dp/0802138527/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249520876&sr=1-7) " which in England is "Sand against the Wind"

Patton

I don't rate any other WWII commanders as outstanding; i.e. achieving victory against expectations 'a la' Hannibal and even Caesar. As for other Americans I am not sure other than perhaps Washington

[HouseHobbit]

I'd have rate Washington, Stillwell, Patton.. Ike..On the top for american I didn't know the Brits had any good commamders.. LOL.. Oh thats right Monty..LOL Remmember we saved your island, of course that was after we defeated it in the 17oo's and again in 1812.. But I gress some Brits have forgotten how the Germans had all but defeated those Good British commanders during the early days of WW2...OPPPS:applause: It has been said at the end of WW2 one way to punish the Germans would have been to let them Keep England and France.. Bravo.. for the Greatest Generation,, Those Americans who suffered and died for Englands' and Europes' freedom..When I served in Europe durng the 70's i discovered that we americans still were nor given the credit due for those who saved the world fron Hitler..

[Wyld45]

Ever just stop and think,... the several times we fought the Brits over this country,and here we are now our best allies,our best friends,our brothers.
:ernae:

[HouseHobbit]

I have to say that all the Brits i met in the Uk when I was there were wonderful people..I even have to say that I LOVED Europe in General.. The Germans and others treated me very well most all the time, but i did meet some whom were a pain in the neck..But again many americans were pains in the neck too,,My little jabs at the post were not a reflection on all those I met..And if any one ever goes to Europe i'd recommend Luxemberg a wonderful place..and i am returning with a Army friend who served with me there next Month..Can't want to see England and Europe again..We both plan to visit our base at Baumholder Germany again and spend a month running around Europe again.. And it is a Blessing to do so..So I hope I had not offended our English Brothers Too much by my post..But again it was american men that died saving England and their efforts and painful service during the dark days of WW2 should never be discounted..That does offend me to do so..Bravo to all the VETS..God Bless them all.. Yes, even those who are not american, our allies deserve our honor and praise..As for those who stood against freedom then and now May God have Mercy on them..For I know that when I was a soldier we showed no Mercy..( Vietnam) AS Patton said the only good enemy is a Dead one..Perhaps that is a bit harsh, but I still believe it is so..As now Vietnam is our friend too and I Praise God for that,, I HATE WAR..But in the world of man it is a fact of life..Bummer..Perhaps why I enjoy Flight Sims,, No one is hurt and no one dies,,For many men I knew didn't come home from southeast asia..And that is such a Bummer..They fought and died for nothing in the end..God Bless them...

[hairyspin]

Churchill quoted a certain Corporal Hitler as saying Britain would have its neck wrung like a chicken. His retort was Some chicken. Some neck! Although he wasn't a military commander, I'd rank Churchill as one of our greatest leaders, period.

For military leaders, I'd nominate Sir Keith Park, who defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain and then did the same thing all over again in Malta. An outstanding commander, and insufficiently recognised as yet.

[Wyld45]

Hey House!,...tell me about those "Baumholder-Winters"! (LoL) :jump:

[Capt. Winters]

But again it was american men that died saving England and their efforts and painful service during the dark days of WW2 should never be discounted..That does offend me to do so..Bravo to all the VETS..God Bless them all.. Yes, even those who are not american, our allies deserve our honor and praise..

Hi Guys,

hi Househobbit, I'm affriad I do find your comments some what offensive.

Its this beleif that the US saved the world that drives me nuts.. yes you all played a big part, but for the size of your country its not that big a part. If you look at it statiscally the:

USA lost 0.32% of its population during WWII (approx 416,800 combat deaths)
England lost 0.94% of its population during WWII (approx 382,700 combat deaths)
Australia (My Country) lost 0.57% of its population during WWII (approx 40,000 combat deaths)
The soviet union lost around 14% of its population (approx 10,000,000 combat deaths)
Yugoslavia lost around 6.6% of its population (approx 446,000 combat deaths)
France lost around 1.4% of its population (approx 217,000 combat deaths)

the list goes on, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
many men from many nations died to save the world..

Further more those grim dark days you speak of were 1939 through 1942, were England (and her dominions) with the shattered remnants of conquored countries stood pretty much alone against the might of Nazi Germany, we won the Battle of Britian, we kicked Rommels ass up and down Africa, the defense of Malta is legendary. in fact the US's first foray into Africa went pretty badly.
From 1943 onwards the final result was pretty much a given, but prior to that it was cut throat fighting for the life of the civilised world, in which the USA put up money and supplies but little else..

So again yes your country did contribute, but in the grand scheme of things it contributed no more and no less than the other countries involved when looking at total numbers of people available for each country.

To say it was America who saved the world is Delusional.
In fact if you look at popular history the USA I believe gets a very biased account of what actions took place, at the expense of other groups involved in those same actions.
which means if anything, there should be more monuments and memorials dotted around the place which list the brave actions of those involved who were not US soldiers.

some say,
England provided the time, the USA provided the money and the USSR provided the blood...

It was a combined effort of many nations and not one of those nations could have succeeded by themselves.
If England had not held out through the grim dark days which particular Island aircraft carrier would the USA have attacked fortress Europe from...

If the Russians had not bleed the 6th army dry, if the RAF had not carried out its night bombings throughout 1941-42 diverting upwards of a million men away from the front lines, if the Afrika Korps had been able to secure the port of Tobruk, how much worse it would have been in 1944 when we all launched into France on that 6th day in June..

I salute all the brave men and women of that period.

As for English leaders, (WWII in particular)

Trafford L. Leigh-Mallory.
Viscount B. Montgomery. (a much maligned leader)
Keith Park.
Charlse Windgate.
W. Churchill.
Dowding
Lord Lovat.

sorry for going on a bit, but this is a topic that pretty much gets the blood boiling..

regards Rob.

[Lt. Heinz Becker]

Soviets did most of the work, but they could care less about their soldiers lives...:gameoff: Don't forget about America's part in the Pacific Theatre as well, but there Australia and New Zealand played parts in that, thwarting a Japanese invasion and saving their countries.

[Mathias]

... I didn't know the Brits had any good commamders.. LOL.. Oh thats right Monty..LOL..

He isn't either, he was lucky that the Brits cracked Enigma in time so that he was always well informed about Rommel's next step.
He proofed his "averageness" later on in the low countries and the battles on German soil.

[mongoose]

The post seemed to get distracted by the usual!:kilroy:

Why did I not include any Brit WWII generals and only RAF? IMO none of then were on the same level as the generals I mentioned and I think they were only successful when they had superiority in men/equipment. One of my theses for choice was that they were usually inferior in numbers; the other that they did the unexpected successfully.
I am not a Trafford L. Leigh-Mallory or Viscount B. Montgomery fan at all; but a great Park fan! I think the Brit generals in the FE were terrible with the possible exception of Slim.

[Wyld45]

Is it a "Historical-Delusion",or was Rommel a more respected leader than Montgomery was?

[Thudman]

I would put Nathaniel Greene right there along side of Washington. He lost almost all of the battles in the southern campaign but he maneuvered Lord Cornwallis right into a hole he could not escape.

Prior to Dec 1941, all the US could offer was material and moral support. Despite an American bias at times, the sacrifices of the British Commonwealth and her allies have not gone un-appreciated by the rest of us.

[HouseHobbit]

Hello Capt. Winters,
I'd have to say we can agree to disagree.. On what to view of America's role in the war..And I do agree that Green was a great commander, but the list of Great commanders from Britian or America is a list I doubt if any one would ever say is set in stone. And I have to include several Native Americans Like Sitting Bull in the list..Or Red Cloud..It can be said a Great commander wins their fight with the less amount of death to their men and the most amount of death to their enemies..And Since Capt Winters pointed that out that We Americans suffered so very Few Deaths I gress we must have had The Greatest commanders in the war.. Thank God.. Again God Bless all those who suffered and died so we are all free..

[mongoose]

He isn't either, he was lucky that the Brits cracked Enigma in time so that he was always well informed about Rommel's next step.
He proofed his "averageness" later on in the low countries and the battles on German soil.
I had not included Axis Geberals since I was looking in a broad US/UK sense; as you can see back to Cromwell. If you include German generals I would submit Guderian as well as Rommel.

[Naki]

Sir Keith Park wasn't a Briton he was a New Zealander. I am no fan of Dowding and Mallory who never agreed with Park over the big wing theory and this eventually led to downfall of both Park and Dowding

[hairyspin]

Beg your pardon, Naki. I did know Park was a Kiwi, like Al Deere and many others, but since he commanded the Battle of Britain and Malta's air defence I think his claim to greatness should carry. Cheers! :icon29:

Mongoose, these debates do tend to get as dreary as a West Country summer. I hope you didn't try attending RNAS Culdrose Air Day - my shoes are still squelching.

[Pat Pattle]

Nelson

[remcoc]

Some thoughts from a former occupied country ...

Veterans are still honoured in Holland when they visite us. Wargraves are adopted by schoolchilderen. Americans, Canadians, British, French (! 1940) soldiers died to give us our freedom. In Holland too there are people who forget that we are free because others gave their life, but hey, stupid people you can find everywehere.

The Russian contribution to the defeat of Germany in numbers is bigger than the contribution of the other allies. I wasn't there, but the historybooks seem to suggest that Stalin was not very concerned with individual lives. But it were still reall people with family and partners that died so that the former German government could be stopped.

Best General? Winning a battle with air-superiority (Germany in 1940-1941; Allies from 1944-1945) or larger supplies nu is allways easier. Getting this fact out of the comparison is very difficult. In trying so, I have to vote for Park and Dowding.

RemcoC

[mongoose]

Nelson

Same to you matey:icon_lol:
OOPs I did forget him.