Skip-bombing?

[ckissling]

I am wondering if making a bomb skip on the water like the B-25's and PBJ's did in attacking Japanese shipping in WWII? ckissling

[Ravenna]

I don't think it can be done in CFS2. The best you could hope for is to change the DP so that, instead of a "3" you use "5" for torpedo.

[ckissling]

Maybe we can get someone to make HARD water so they will bounce.
ckissling

[Pen32Win]

This What I Did and it works very well for the Player A/C and AI's. I did this with the Hardnose B-25D from the BoBs Campaign.

1. Changed the Catagory from 5 to 4 in the DP.
2. Moded the Airfile and Aircraft.cfg so the AI's could fly them properly. Got a pretty good balance so it's not "Hot", just a bit light to the player. Good old MOI's.
3. Took DB's Mk.13_e and reduced the weight and hit points to reflect a 500lb Bomb. I don't use the "e" version in any other A/C so I don't have to worry about it messing up other Torp Bombers.
4. Added a Payload of 2 of thge torps in #3.
5. In Missions I give the AI's the Torps and can choose what I want for the player.

In a mission the AI's will attack twice with their Torp/Bombs and then come back to strafe if given the Attack with All Weapons Command for the Attack WP.

Is it perfect? No, but with the 5 Second delay used on skip bombs it works out pretty close. The most realistic part is that the AI's use an attack profile that better simulates a Skip Bombing Run. As opposed to the Glide Bombing Run from the Rear when you use a Bomb Payload.

[Corsair Freak]

I was thinking over this last night...

What about making an "invisible" bomb who's center point is a couple hundred feet in front and above the bomber, and another bomb that is visible in the bomber's bay.

The 2 bombs can be linked as a salvo so they drop at the same time. When the visible bomb hits the water, it begins a skipping effect. Then, when the invisible bomb gets to the ground it explodes.

Like this:

[bearcat241]

Maybe we can get someone to make HARD water so they will bounce.
ckissling


I experimented with this HW idea a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, hard water makes torpedoes explode on impact too.

[wolfi]

-I never heared about skip-bombing, how does it work ?, I know how the dambusters do it, but this where spezial bomb´s.

wolfi

[OBIO]

Skip bombing....come in low and fast toward the side of the ship. Release the bombs and they skip along the water until they hit the side of the ship, down low near the water line usually. Because you are down low, the ship's main defensive guns are not able to get a bead on you.

The reason you have to be fast is that you have to be able to pull up over the ship's structure very quickly. B-25s were used for skip bombing with great success. That bomber, which many pilots said handled exactly the way fighter pilots described their planes' handling, was nimble enough to climb steeply to get up over the ship.

OBIO

[Rocktser2]

Only way you could make it skip is if your plane was a glider and contact points like a seaplane........

So the plane would be an object

The bomb would be the plane

plane dissappears as you release the bomb and you cut your engines and last flap setting would make you a rock..........

greenghost gauge ......autowake.............skip like a seaplane ...........boom when you hit something,,,,,,,

[bearcat241]

In Dambuster missions, the Brits used a specialized drum-shaped bomb which dropped sideways and skip-rolled forward across the water surface. The skipping effect was created by the carefully regulated airspeed of the very low flying bomber (just feet off the deck) and a spinning mechanism installed in the plane which spun the bomb at a high revolution just as it was released. The combined physics of this method triggered hydrodynamic resistance on the water surface and caused the bomb to skip, just like skipping a spinning flat stone across a lake or pond.

The Yanks used a more rudimentary, straightforward approach. They probably got the original idea from action reports from low flying bomb runs where some GP bombs were duds, failed to explode on impact and skipped across the ground. This observation was tested on water surfaces and looked promising so they developed it into a tactical method. Water becomes very hard against a high speed object, as evidenced by impact explosions from fast falling planes hitting deep water or the skipping seen in speed boat racing.

[wolfi]

thank´s Obio, Rocktser2 and Bearcat:ernae:


wolfi

[Pen32Win]

For the player you might be able to Use a Modified Bomb but the AI's are going to do something that's not even close to a skip bombing run.
This will happen with any payload/weapon that is a type 1, 2, 3 or 4. These are the Weapon types.
1, 2, 3, 4 are Bombs
5, 6, 7, 8 are Rockets
9, 10 are Torpedos
15, 16, 17 are Drop Tanks
20 are mounts, gun barrels, antennas, bay covers, crew...

These are the type used in all of the Object DP's I have, hundereds of them. I wonder what 11,12,13,14,18,19... would do?

Whenever you give an AI Bomber aircraft a "Attack with Bombs" and the target is a moving object they automatically try to climb to 6500' and get dead astern of the target. The payload and WP command are going to effect the AI's behavior. In this case not well.

Don't want to be party pooper but don't want to see folks waste alot of time on something that's already been tried and:banghead:

[hewman100]

'Skip bombing' has been around for a long time:d

Men o' War did it with cannonballs as it increased their range.:isadizzy:

[hartmaj]

All my father said about skip bombing was, "it could be interesting".

Attached is a poor scan of one of his photographs. It shows the bomb after the last skip off of the water just before it hit the ship. If you look closely you can see three Japanese sailors in the upper left corner trying to get away before the bomb hit.

[hartmaj]

This time I saved it as a jpeg. Hope it works

[ckissling]

Pen32Win
Trying is something that must be done. A really good napalm effect is
coming closer because Barecat 241 is taking a shot at it, and it looks
better than ever. ckissling

[Tango_Romeo]

-I never heared about skip-bombing, how does it work ?, I know how the dambusters do it, but this where spezial bomb´s.wolfi

....just about any smooth object striking the surface of a fluid at speed and at an angle of 13 degrees or less will skip. :d

Remember skipping stones on the pond? :costumes:

[Pen32Win]

Pen32Win
Trying is something that must be done. A really good napalm effect is
coming closer because Barecat 241 is taking a shot at it, and it looks
better than ever. ckissling

Howdy CK;

I didn't intend for the post to dissuade anyone from "trying" anything, far from it.

I just wanted to point out the effect different weapons types are going to have on both Player and Non-Player AI's and to keep someone from putting a lot of time into something that's not going turn out as expected because an AI behavior that's hard coded into the AI DLL's. If we could Modify these DLL's we could do a lot of things but that a line that can't be crossed, legally anyway.

That's All. :ernae:

[Rocktser2]

Most of us ...........WWII thru Vietnam Aviation nut cases ............think skip bombing is CFS2 101......(meaning we all know of it and watched the "Dam Busters" over and over.........untill we couldn't watch it again.........or at least all of it.......maybe a brief channel surf)

However, for those new to the concept............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JqBiMgC2Wg

Nasty shot of the bomb that flew back up and totally smashed the tail off of the bombing aircraft

[Pen32Win]

Very Cool Rockster, thank you for posting that.

[Rocktser2]

I probably have way too much time on my hands..................................

but........

Did anyone else pick up the aircraft type n the skip bombing accident from training film above.

And I am sorry to anyone related to or involved with the pilot and crew of that misfortunate accident...............it is horrifying to watch.

Yet it is historically significant.....an important to the war effort....and for aircraft enthusiasts

The square tail..............caught my eye.

I am not sure..................and better suggestions would be encouraged...............with photos

The Douglas XA-26 first flew in 1942. The Dam Busters raid was in 1943.

I think that was a testing of the first Douglas invader?????

[bearcat241]

Definitely an A-26, by the high square tail. Boston's have a high tail too, but a little more rounded in shape. The video's content strongly suggests it was an RAF training/testing film. So it could have been a Lend-leased aircraft.

In terms of the possibility of the A-26 being operational in Europe before the raid for inclusion in this footage, there's no reason to fix the final dating of this release either before or after the raid - could have been a string of clips from before and after. We would have to assume that the success of the raid encouraged continued refinements in skip-bombing weapons and tactics, which would lead to more on-going training, testing and filming for future missions of the type.

BTW, did you notice how the force of the plane's airspeed at a sudden nose down position caused the wings to snap back and begin breaking off even before the water impact? Wow....:kilroy:

[hewman100]

To my knowledge the only aircraft to be used for testing 'Upkeep' other than the Lanc was an adapted Wellington. The Mosquito was also used and this led to the smaller version 'Highball'. 618 Sqn were equipped with adapted Mossies to use Highballs in the Far East and reached the theatre although were no used in action.

Only one A-26 on RAF charge I can find and that flew at A&AEE Boscombe Down. I'll check my references but I believe that aircraft wasn't lost.

[bearcat241]

Just keep in mind that the history references never tell all Hewman. I know i sound like a broken record at times repeating this but historical references are just "handed down" works that are often incomplete, altered repeatedly or contain erroneous data and recordkeeping, as we all have shared many examples just communing here at this forum alone. Just because we can't find a reference to something doesn't mean it never happened and when we can find a thing, it doesn't necessarily mean it did happen in the details given. I like researching history - especially military - as much as the next guy here, but i never buy into everthing 100% 'cause that just ain't practical.

As a teen and later a younger man i had a much more stubborn "faith" in the recorded "facts" of hysterical works :icon_lol:, but the experiences that come with age have tempered my stubborness on the subject substantially.

[Rocktser2]

I am fairly sure the aircraft is the early variant of the Douglas Invader.....

more likely the A-26B



Also.............I did a search on "A-26 skip bomb"..... and google books has the manual on A-26 skip bombing................

The links are too long to post..................

The you tube is a cut and paste of skip bombing footage........so who knows when the A-26 accident occurred???/

[Tango_Romeo]

...that bought the lake was definitely either too low, too slow or both. In fact, it appeared obvious that it was releasing at a lower altitude than the Lancs. :isadizzy:

I thought it interesting that the weapon the 26 dropped was noticeably smaller and different in shape compared to what the Lancs were dropping.

[Rocktser2]

You probably looked at this one too!

but I like the round one....................as it come up to the camera

also...............would you stand that close .........along the shore????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrN0iVJjLgU

The bouncing ball bomb looks like what the A-26 was trying to test.......... must have been an later version after the Dam busters

[hewman100]

Checked my references only two Invaders served with the RAF, KL690 and KL691. These were both evaluated at Boscombe Down and returned to the USAAF in 1947. The rest of the order for 140 was cancelled

The book this info comes from is collated from the Aircraft Data Record Cards held for every aircraft ever on RAF charge.

I agree that data can be garbled. But the amount of first hand and well documented data on this particular weapons usage from the British side at least, leads me to think this may have been an American testing of the weapon along the same lines as that carried out by the Mosquito. Possibly for use by the USAAF or USN?

Records on A-26s and their fates maybe a good place to start looking

[Rocktser2]

Again...............those curious enough.............probably checked out the other youtube videos...........................including the skip bomb volkswagen..........................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbL1_oRCdI4

In case you didn't........................

German Jet assisted take off .......... Jato rocket ....skip bomb


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93AQQ9qYoQo

[Rocktser2]

As usual...........................the answer or the issue has been addressed

Maybe most of you already found this web page.............

http://vectaris.net/id386.html

Maybe this web page came about after this page???

Highball...............


The USAAF sent an A-26 over to Brooklands for conversion and it was fitted with a standard Highball installation (the codename for the A-26 installation was Speedee, but it was physically identical to Highball). The A-26 did a series of test drops in the sea near Eglin AFB in Florida; one of Wallis' men was there for some of them.
The type of bomb was not the large ‘UPKEEP’ used so successfully by Lancaster bombers over the Rhur dams, but the smaller ‘HIGHBALL’, eventually dropped by the Mosquito. The ‘HIGHBALL’was designed to be used against Japanese shipping in the Pacific, but constant problems delayed the programme and these problems were notcured before the end of the war.
On several drops, the A-26, which flew these experimental missions codenamed Speedee, was VERY low (under 10 feet) and on the 28th April 1945, the bomb hit the tail with fatal consequences, as can be seen below. American interest in the weapon then faded; there was only one converted A-26 Invader.

[bearcat241]

:kilroy: ahhh...there it is...thanks Rockster

[hewman100]

Cheers Rockster.

[Pen32Win]

Well I took my idea about using a Torpedo Type weapon as a skip bomb and this is what I came up with. First I took DB's 500lb_GP_c.dp and converted it to a Type=11 Torpedo. This is one othe types not used by MS or any of the other Add-On weapons developers. I used the "c" because none of my other A/C use this MDL. Next I took my B-25C/D Pappy Gunn Commerce Killer and set up the DP with 4 of these weapons which drop in pairs. Front Right & Rear Left then Front Left & Rear Right.

The screen shots show what it looks like in action. You can see I was only 320 Meters from the ship when I dropped and you also see the splashes. Unlike other torps these don't go under the ship from short range. TheAI's will make regular low level torpedo runs with them. They do quite well.

Enjoy....

[Ravenna]

:jawdrop:That is amazing!

[hewman100]

Does this bring about the possibility of a Dambusting raid without the Payware add-on?

[Bill Kestell]

:ernae: Nice, really, really nice. Hope to see this posted fordownload shortly!

[Jagdflieger]

Wow! I wish we would have had this when we made the Battle of the Bismarck Sea campaign. This would make a rebuild of that campaign well worth the effort.

[Pen32Win]

Thanks Gents;

The parts were already there, I just rearrange the chairs on the deck and whala!

The pictures are backwards in order. The first shot is in the bottom center position. They are from two different passes at the same ship. If you look at the title of the picture, Release, BombHitsWater and Boom are from the first pass. OhCrap and CommerceKiller are from the second pass.

Hewman, yes, as long as the Dam Is a Ship, Torpedoes won't affect any other object type in the Sim. And Yes, you will get a Wake behind it. It's nothing more than a bomb with a modified DP to turn it into a torpedo. Very Simple.

The reason I pursued this avenue is that the AI’s will not fly a Skip-Bombing Attack Flight Profile without the weapon it’s trying to drop being a torpedo. Everything else, Bombs, Rockets gives you diving attacks, not the way it was done.

Yes, there is a D/L in the works. Bwaahaahaahaa…

[Talon]

This could make for some interesting missions.Way to go Pen.

Like Jadg said the Battle of the Bismarck Sea could be redone using this plus using some of the newer planes that weren't out when it was first done.


Talon

[Pen32Win]

A Roger that Talon. A work already in progress. That was the whole reason I've been working on it.

JFYI, the smoke coming from the upper deck of the ship is the result of a Beafighter attacking it. The Bullet Spray on the water in front of my A/C is from the 8 x .50Cals on another B-25C/D Gunship to my rear left attacking at the same time. It had already completed 2 "Torpedo-Skip Bombing" Runs and had been assigned a new target. No problem with the Player or AI-Only Formation AI's transitioning from Torpedo Attack to Gun Attack.

[Jerm]

:applause:
enough said

[VFC_Baxter]

Once upon a time when I used to fly IL2 I remember watching skip bombing movies from this site http://www.darts-page.com/ I was particularly awed with the skip bombing a battleship one.

[DonJasper99]

Yes I know this is an older thread, but I think I can add a silly observation to this discussion of 'skip bombing'. And I like to contribute when I can. Anyway - it works on glass smooth water - like a lake. I don't think it's going to work too good against the ocean surface ruffled by the wind / tides etc. Probably why they kept trying to use torpedoes for the job.

This idea reminds me of that scene in Saving Private Ryan, where they pull the pins on the mortar rounds, slam them down - then throw them. Who was the first one to try that? Pulling the pin and then slamming the live round against the ground I mean.

While doing the skip-bombing thing - the Brits practiced with specialized equipment against a dam. It's the 'flying over the target' that would give me pause.

"Sure Gus, you skip bomb that destroyer. I'll be over here seeing how much abuse a live mortar round can take before it explodes."