Open Letter To Developers

[IanP]

I lied. As much as this hobby and the people within it annoy me, for some unfathomable reason, I really do care. Probably because I want "right" to triumph over "wrong". Naive maybe, but at least I'm prepared to stick my neck out for what I believe in.

The reason I am so vehement about insisting that people stick to the correct legal terms and not emotive but false accusations is that trying to get illegal uploading or downloading classified as theft is not going to happen, and for very good reason. The effects of a theft are far greater - whether a developer wants to admit that or not - than of someone illegally uploading copyrighted software. I really shouldn't need to explain why again, but I was not merely throwing a paddy in the aisle by telling you to get that through your skulls, I am trying to help you get what you want.

What is entirely achievable, if enough weight is put behind it, is getting the Copyright laws brought up to date to represent the world as it now stands and as it is most likely to move forward. There still needs to be categorisation of the offence - for profit, not for profit - and the effect of the offence has to be taken into consideration, but the law must be changed for this problem to be dealt with.

I am not a lawyer. All I have is my own feelings of what is right and what is wrong, but it's clear as day to me that right now none of you are doing a damned thing to help yourselves, individually.

So here is my challenge to all those who are complaining about their add-ons (specifically commercial add-ons in this case) being illegally uploaded and distributed.

One of you per country, I don't care who, with the evidence to prove the damage done - as you claim here to have - will step forward and say that you will contact the appropriate authority in your country and request a meeting with your appropriate representative to discuss a request for a change in the law. ALL other developers in that country need to support the person who puts forward the request.

The change to the law is this: That the act of uploading or making available copyrighted material without authorisation be moved from civil law to criminal, in order to reflect the damage that is being done by out of date and no longer relevant legislation. That regardless of the destination of that material (e.g. a server in a foreign country or a distributed Peer-to-Peer network), if the material is uploaded from within the sovereign territory to which the law applies, then the crime shall be taken to have occured within that country and can be tried within that country.

Note one thing. As developers, YOU will need to provide the evidence. YOU will need to be prepared to make your case and support it. You will need to find developers from outside the FS industry and convince them to support you as well. I, or any other user or developer of non-commercial software, can do very little but offer our support.

Individual developers, as John says on the other thread, are not in a position to do this alone. You will need to do something utterly unheard of in this industry and, regardless of target market, regardless of product quality or past disagreements, WORK TOGETHER.

Is anyone prepared to do this?

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

Sure individual developers are in a position present evidence , we keep records and when a licence is reused on multiple computers in different locations we know it. this isn’t torrent upload , it's file sharing between friends " Lilly White Piracy " .<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We DO have all the sales and activation records , what kind of response would there be if we did share them Ian...?

<o:p></o:p>

[ryanbatc]

, we keep records and when a licence is reused on multiple computers in different locations we know it. this isn’t torrent upload , it's file sharing between friends " Lilly White Piracy " .<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

not necessarily... what I wrote in the other thread is that while I was in college we had laptops we leased from the aviation department. Every year we got a new one, and so we changed PC's often, also the IP address would change when moving dorms, I think I moved 8 times during college, at least. I would imagine there is a lot of college folk doing the same things....I knew a couple of guys from my level had the same thing going on. I was accused of piracy by addon devs when I spent my 5 years there...

[IanP]

Sure individual developers are in a position present evidence , we keep records and when a licence is reused on multiple computers in different locations we know it. this isn’t torrent upload , it's file sharing between friends " Lilly White Piracy " .<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We DO have all the sales and activation records , what kind of response would there be if we did share them Ian...?

<o:p></o:p>

What response has there been when people have sat there and complained about the numbers?

I've never tried this before. I can't make promises, I can't guarantee anything, I don't even know how the system works in the US. I do know that small groups of people and individuals have achieved changes in the law. I also know that the current methods being used are unpopular with every single person involved except big music and big movies, who don't want illegal uploading stopped, they want to make money off that distribution system without actually doing anything different than they are now.

They're not the ones going bust. You are. The best outcome of this is that the law gets changed to something that works. The worst outcome is that the situation gets no worse than it already is.

I'm not asking people to donate money, I'm not asking people to stand on street corners with placards (you'd get beaten up by the Metropolitain Police for daring to try and do that in London right now). I'm suggesting that people speak to their elected representatives, make sure that they know the true situation and to talk between themselves and co-ordinate a response rather than trying to fight a million losing battles.

[cheezyflier]

are you saying that if i build another computer i'm supposed to buy all my add-ons a 2nd time? and if i just re-use the ones i have already paid for them i am a pirate?

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

The kind of fair use a single clients records indicate when the installs are over a long period are quite different than those generated when the multiple installs are over a week or two and in different countries.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The former isn’t piracy , the latter is and there are enough of the latter to prove my point , again the question what would happen if these records were used to present evidence ? who would lose ? , sadly the developer. <o:p></o:p>

[IanP]

again the question what would happen if these records were used to present evidence ? who would lose ? , sadly the developer. <o:p></o:p>


How?

[harleyman]

Hmmm...

I must have missed something......:kilroy:

[Henry]

copyright laws are pretty black and white here
at least in the photo business [not a pun]
but proving it is a different story
it comes down to the individual
who is supplying the copy to report it
and not copy it or supply it
ignorance is bliss in many cases
and lawyers will not take them on
hill wheres the money
just an observation
H

[krazycolin]

How?

I have presented evidence that i have been ripped off and have been vilified over and over. Here. That's how.

And you are now asking that I should band together with those same people that have ripped me off? HUH?

nuff said.

[Henry]

I have presented evidence that i have been ripped off and have been vilified over and over. Here. That's how.

And you are now asking that I should band together with those same people that have ripped me off? HUH?

nuff said.
but is not that another story altogether
we are talking about pirates downloading
not anything else
You wanna hear my stories about how ive been spat on
this is not the place or the time
im not competing but ill give you a run for your money
H

[noshadez]

I too see my stuff pirated..I search sometimes my stuff to see how things are going and the whole first 2 pages are mostly torrent pages.. I say fight fire with fire..set up a donation to hire an (Super) hacker expert and let them hack some of those sites with killer viruses..Just like they (Hackers) have done to Sim outhouse/Avsim and others so on in the past..Do not we have someone here with connections and smarts to do something like that?..Its all Fire in love and war :pop4:

[mike_cyul]

I too see my stuff pirated..I search sometimes my stuff to see how things are going and the whole first 2 pages are mostly torrent pages.. I say fight fire with fire..set up a donation to hire an (Super) hacker expert and let them hack some of those sites with killer viruses..Just like they (Hackers) have done to Sim outhouse/Avsim and others so on in the past..Do not we have someone here with connections and smarts to do something like that?..Its all Fire in love and war :pop4:

If I were to hire a hacker, it would be to put some very malicious code into a copy of my own models - and then upload them to pirate sites myself. I would think that people would soon stop downloading anything with that company name on it.

Mike

[krazycolin]

Copyright violation is EXACTLY what is happening to me. One of the developers in question is selling my model WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. That is PIRACY. No? Please, correct me if I am wrong in that sense because I am really starting to wonder if I am the only one who sees what's going on....

[krazycolin]

And Mike, if you were to put that "code" into play and it destroyed someone's pute, they could sue you and you would lose.

what a world.

[Lionheart]

It would be awesome to come up with unbreakable software so that piracy would be massively difficult.

Just remember though, if you do what the enemy does, you have become one of them. Dont wind up in a Chinese prison. What goes around shall surely come around. Dont go down the wrong path...

Thats my humble advice. Your idea's sound great, but they also sound a tad evil. I would work on securities first, see if there are new technologies to keep it from happening.. (like an auto-plane delete when its tampered with in a certain way, etc).


Bill

[Bone]

Copyright violation is EXACTLY what is happening to me. One of the developers in question is selling my model WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. That is PIRACY. No? Please, correct me if I am wrong in that sense because I am really starting to wonder if I am the only one who sees what's going on....

No Collin, I would have to say that's not Piracy. I would call that getting screwed by a business partner. Either way it sucks, but being a victim of Piracy would probably be easier to stomach.

[mike_cyul]

And Mike, if you were to put that "code" into play and it destroyed someone's pute, they could sue you and you would lose.

what a world.

I'm sure it could be written in a way that would not to detroy anyone's computer. How about just erase the 'Airplanes' folder?

Mike

[MenendezDiego]

I'm sure it could be written in a way that would not to detroy anyone's computer. How about just erase the 'Airplanes' folder?

Mike

lol the entire FSX Airplane folder? Man that would stop Piracy right in its tracks!

[krazycolin]

FSD's software protection does that "hiding thing". (not the whole folder) and so far, (fingers crossed) it's working. I highly recommend them...

My stomach is KILLING me.... ah well...

[djscoo]

I'm sure it could be written in a way that would not to detroy anyone's computer. How about just erase the 'Airplanes' folder?

Mike

including a warning in the license agreement could help you avoid legal issues too.
"your honor...he clicked "I agree"...":monkies:

[rwmarth]

including a warning in the license agreement could help you avoid legal issues too.
"your honor...he clicked "I agree"...":monkies:

Ha! Who knows what MS actually says in their EULAs.... They could have you enter in an agreement to give them your house and damn if most would ever know that!

[bushpilot]

Here's interesting podcast, an interview of Mathijs Kok of Aerosoft.
http://media.fsbreak.net/podcasts/fsbreak_025.mp3

They discuss piracy (starts after 45 minutes mark). One thing he states that after they switched to more user friendly activation system, their sales went up. Also funny how they track down pirates at weekends LOL:icon_lol:.

[harleyman]

Yes..It was very intresting....

[JT8D-9A]

Sure individual developers are in a position present evidence , we keep records and when a licence is reused on multiple computers in different locations we know it. this isn’t torrent upload , it's file sharing between friends " Lilly White Piracy " .<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We DO have all the sales and activation records , what kind of response would there be if we did share them Ian...?

<o:p></o:p>
I'm using one FSX installation between WinXP (DX9) and Win7 RC1 (DX10), so i have to install my add-ons twice. One FSX installation on the same computer but with two different operating systems.
I don't think that this is illegal. I want to use my add-ons in the most perfect environment under DX9 and under DX10 and it's not my fault that Windows and FSX are imperfect (DX10 "preview", incompatibility of many WinXP applications under Vista/Win7 etc.).
I'm not able to install the Hellcat twice on the same computer (not hundred times in different countries) and that's the reason why i didn't buy the YF-23. I don't even know if i could reinstall the Hellcat, if i would have to reformat and reinstall WinXP.


@Ian
Ian, what has happened to your hompage?

[Tim_FSD]

Ian,

There is no reason why you would not be able to install the YF23 on your computer as you outline here. Does not make any difference if you have some kind of dual boot system or not.

If you do have two operating systems, and therefore, two system registries, you will need to run the installer twice. But that should not pose a problem.

[JT8D-9A]

Ian,

There is no reason why you would not be able to install the YF23 on your computer as you outline here. Does not make any difference if you have some kind of dual boot system or not.

If you do have two operating systems, and therefore, two system registries, you will need to run the installer twice. But that should not pose a problem.
Hi Tim,
i tried to install the Hellcat under Win7 64 and the installer is telling me that the Hellcat would be already installed on another Computer and then the Installer is crashing. I have no chance to press the report button, because of the app crash.
It worked once under Vista64, but then i used Win7 instead of Vista. I had also changed my HW (graphics card), but the installation under WinXP worked without problems.
So i don't know what you are logging, i only know the situation on my PC.

Greetings

Nils (not Ian)

[Tim_FSD]

Nils,

The system is designed to allow installation as you outlined, however, we really can't certify it for Windows 7 yet. We would have to have the full SDK from Microsoft first. Likely it is a small compatibility issue that is causing a big problem.

[PRB]

Hmm, if the error message says that it’s already been installed on another computer, then it seems to me “it” already “knows” what the problem is. On the RealFlight Hellcat, it will let you install on another computer, but only once… I ran into this with mine, err, I mean the copy I’m licensed to play with. Anyhow, I couldn’t get it to install the first time so I tried it on my laptop, just to see if I could get to the point where it couldn’t find FS, since I wasn’t even getting that far on the FS machine. This, evidently, counted as ONE (1) install. After figuring out how to install it on my FS machine, that was TWO (2). Then I bought a new FS machine, and went for THREE (3), whereupon I was informed by the installer that I was a PIRATE and couldn’t install it on THREE computers. I had to ask for a license transfer, or an installer reset. The fine folks at RealFlight were kind enough to reset my install count back to 0 (or 1) and I was able to install the plane on my new FS machine.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
As for the whole pirate debate, I sympathize (I think). I say “I think” because as bad as the situation is, I don’t think suspected downloaders should be taken out with deadly force by swat teams like in Tom Clancy movies. MC, you keep saying that, and every time I hear it I think you’re exaggerating for dramatic effect, but I’m starting to think you really do want them shot dead! I think that’s going a bit far, actually. Waterboarded, maybe, but I’m not sure about shot between the eyes. Somali pirates, yes, but that’s different. And like others here, I sort of resent being treated as a criminal when I buy something. “Keeping honest people honest” is a euphemism for “keeping people who say they are honest from stealing our stuff because we really know you would steal it if given the chance.” You know what? No I wouldn’t! Making your product so difficult to install that you drive away honest customers is not the answer. The really honest ones, I mean.
<o:p></o:p>
Anyhow, I agree with those who suggest the problem would be smaller if the pirate sites were closed down.

[vstudios]

I'm not able to install the Hellcat twice on the same computer (not hundred times in different countries) I don't even know if i could reinstall the Hellcat, if i would have to reformat and reinstall WinXP.


Your able to reinstall the Hellcat on the same computer as many times as you need, the only time you will need to increase your installation requests is when a PC's finger print is changed (new harddrive, etc..)

If you need to know more please email me.

[fsafranek]

are you saying that if i build another computer i'm supposed to buy all my add-ons a 2nd time? and if i just re-use the ones i have already paid for them i am a pirate?
If you remove/stop using them on the older computer then it isn't a copyright violation. If you use it on both computers it is a violation unless you bought a site license or it says you can operate it on more than one PC simulatiously. Both scenarios are pretty unlikely when it comes to flightsim add-ons. Bottom line is that when you reinstall you need to uninstall the previous copy.
:ernae:

[Tim_FSD]

Technically that is true, but we are not the Internal Revenue Service. If you have some kind of setup circumstances, or new computers, we can always work something out for you. I think most developers are pretty reasonable about that.

[JT8D-9A]

Thanks Tim and Dean!
I will contact you soon and it would be great if you could allow me the installation under Win7 64 RC1. I hope to switch completely to Win7 after its release, but that depends also if all tools and add-ons will be fully compatible with Win7 64.

@Paul
I only have one gaming PC (my laptop is a Thinkpad T30.. old but i love it) and i guess the change from Vista to Win7 has caused my problem.
But there seems to be also a problem with Win7 64 because of the connection error and the app crash.
Or is someone able to use the Hellcat under Win7 64 RC1?

[N2056]

Time for a reality check.

You are expecting that this installer (or one for any other product) should work flawlessly on an operating system that has not been released yet? :isadizzy:

I applaud RealFlight & FSD for working with you on this. They must have an awfully good crystal ball! :icon_lol:

[MenendezDiego]

Your able to reinstall the Hellcat on the same computer as many times as you need, the only time you will need to increase your installation requests is when a PC's finger print is changed (new harddrive, etc..)

If you need to know more please email me.


This is just the case with me. I had to do a complete windows re-install on a new hard drive, and I havn't been able to re-install my hellcat.

I sent an email out yesterday requesting a new license, but nothing yet.

Guess I just have to wait

Regards, Diego