A guide to constructive critisism.

[Gibbage]

From time to time, 3rd party developers can and often will post works in progress (Hence forth, known as *WIP*) at their leisure. This serves two purposes.

#1, advertisement. It’s no secret that we use it to advertise our products. We depend greatly on this community for sales. Without it, 3rd party developers would simply dry up.

#2, feedback. This should be #1, as it truly is the most important reason why we post WIP's. We need feedback from you, the customer. As an artist, I can stare at an aircraft model for many months at a time, and still miss something as obvious as the control stick in the cockpit! That’s why we need your support to note errors.

The biggest problem most people have is how to approach a possible error when they find it without somehow upsetting the artist or developer working on the model. That is where this guide comes in.

1. First, read what the developer is posting when he post's screen shots. A lot of times he will note things that are not yet done or finished.

2. If you feel that you found an error, please research first. Find a photo or some type of reference that shows how you feel it should be.

Example. On a recent thread about the FSD/MilViz F-15, a user noted that a problem with the shape of the air brake, and attached photo's. This was fixed. No hurt feelings, and the customers get a better product. Simply saying that there is a problem helps nobody.

3. If you feel the quality of the model is not up to standard, please be specific. Comparing one product against another is not at all helpful or beneficial.

Example. On a recent thread about the FSD/MilViz F-15, users noted that the canopy frame was a little low polygon and segmented. This was noted by the developer and fixed.

Sometimes a product though simply can’t afford the cost in development other products get due to the limited market, so please understand that. Some aircraft, like the outstanding Aerosoft PBY Catalina can take years to develop, but not all developers can afford that amount of resources on an aircraft that is not as popular or may not sell well. Simply put, we can’t spend $10,000 on an aircraft if we can only expect $3000 in sales. Supply and demand. That’s why comparing X product to Y is not very helpful.

4. Treat developers with respect. Simply put, they are doing the community a service, because they want to. None of us are getting rich here. Breaking even for us is a success, and honestly, successes are getting harder to come by in this economy.

5. Don’t debate the developers over something you think is wrong, if they don’t agree. If they don’t agree, they have their reasons. If you don’t agree, vote with your wallet. Note the problem and move on.

Example. In a recent thread about the YP-23 from FSD/MilViz, someone noted a lack of weathering in the cockpit (compared to the F-15 from the same developer). The developer noted it was done due to the YP-23 being a prototype, and babied, unlike a combat aircraft. Debate should stop there. If you don’t agree, don’t buy it. Saying you don’t agree and won’t buy it is being very disrespectful to the artist.

6. Reserve judgement till it’s finished. No example or explanation needed.

With this guide, I hope I give people the courage to help us out. As long as it’s done properly, you won’t hurt anyone’s feelings. We have a small tight community, and the only way to keep it together is by helping each other, and simply being civil. Ultimately, if you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

[Milton Shupe]

Well articulated Gibbage. Thank you for taking the time.

[Rezabrya]

I'm glad somebody finally took the time to make a guide like this. It is sad because although the things in this thread should be second-nature, it seems they aren't anymore. It is ok to express your opinion but be respectful about it. It will help you in the long run to provide constructive criticism because you will get a better product. :ernae:

[limjack]

Nice write up Gibbage.
I agree with all you pointed out.
:ernae:

Jim

[Bjoern]

Sticky that one. NOW!

[jmig]

Sticky that one. NOW!

ditto!

[Henry]

I will not only stick it
I will endorse it :applause::applause::applause:
H

[VFR Reviews]

:applause:

Good for you mate. :ernae:

[guzler]

Well done guys,

This was needed.

[CodyValkyrie]

Do we really need a guide for something that is common sense? No disrespect, but I fear it is like a "wash your hands" sign in a bathroom. No matter how hard we try to explain to people to be respectful and tactful, they either will or won't get it.

I do however agree with most points made. I just don't think that anyone who dearly needs to read this post will get anything really from it.

To be very clear, this is just my personal opinion.

[Cactuskid]

Thank you for posting this Kevin! :applause: If the points you made soak into just one thick skull, then it's worth it! :ernae:

[lawdawg]

Well said.:ernae:

[AussieMan]

One thing I cannot see in any of the above postings is one stark fact.

We have to bear in mind that for a lot of developers English is not their native language. Therefore words can be misinterpreted, misspelt or just put in the wrong place.

This is why I do not critise developers.

Cheers
Pat

[Gibbage]

Do we really need a guide for something that is common sense?

Its not about educating people who already know, but having the ability to enforce a code on someone who is simply unwilling to follow common courtesy. This gives the admins and mods a tool they can use to guide possible unruly/rude users, and if they continue, recourse in removing them.

I also hopes it encourages users who were once afraid of pointing something out to do so without fear of hurting our feelings. We truly depend on feedback, and if what happened scared users away from such feedback, that hurts developers more then a few rude comments.

[Henry]

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and that is basically the problem
it gets personal not constructive
i have seen some great posts on constructive things
and most people respond wow
ill fix it thanks missed that one or sorry cannot be fixed
its hard coded in the sim.
I may be an idiot most of the time
but one thing i do know
if ya ask nicely you will probably get it
everyone here in this community is basically after the same thing to do there best and to receive the best

but slamming someone
just dont cut it
H

[tigisfat]

I agree whole heartedly, but if I've purchased a product that is faulty or not as advertised, I don't owe anyone anything. In fact, they owe me.

The part I most agree with is the WIP stuff. Very few people on the planet are even qualified to pick apart a MSFS add-on being worked on.

[MCDesigns]

I agree whole heartedly, but if I've purchased a product that is faulty or not as advertised, I don't owe anyone anything. In fact, they owe me.

Actually, yes you do, the owners and the other members of this private forum civility and courtesy. If you or anyone else feels the need to pick about a purchase they can do so on their respective product forums as this is not an addon support forum.


The part I most agree with is the WIP stuff. Very few people on the planet are even qualified to pick apart a MSFS add-on being worked on.

Actually we have a high rate of modelers and developers on this board, so there are quite a few that could qualify, unfortunately we have a few that "think" they are more qualified than the original author which is where the problem starts many times.

While I agree with Gibbage (great post BTW) the problem comes when we think everyone has been raised in the same environment and as such follow the same set of guidelines/rules/morals on how to treat others and that just isn't the case. Throw some language barriers in the mix and issues will occur.

[deathfromafar]

After reading all the posts centered around current events as of late, it brings to mind past events from developer forums elsewhere wherein both developer/mods and customers have had their fair share of ugly exchanges much of which were petty & uncalled for. I have seen as many developers show their behinds as I have customers do the same. When in a pissing match, no good ever comes of it, pure & simple. But on more than one occasion, I have witnessed Devs treat customers like trash and/or ignore them when problems have come up regarding models. I have likewise seen customers go to extremes blasting back publicly which is no better than the former. An incredible spectacle in public view and bad business for sure. After seeing it happen to others and experiencing it myself, it makes me very grateful for the Devs who bend over backwards in terms of customer support and kindness. Good customer service and rapport breeds mutual happiness in most cases. In gauging which business support model works best, I am 100% convinced that the best way to support a product is by keeping issues/problems private and totally out of a public forum. In my experience, nearly all problems I have ever experienced with a FS product were best dealt with by direct email with the Devs. Public support forums never approached the same level of service for me and always left too much room for things to go the wrong direction. Speaking of product problems here or in any public forum really isn't a good idea and just leaves the door wide open for all kinds of BS to happen. On another issue, development/beta related matters should be relegated to an area closed to developers and beta testers only so they can iron out the bugs in peace and hopefully turn out a better product in the end and not be sniped and nitpicked to death. Furthermore, when problems or inaccuracies are found by a customer(post release or sale), the customer has a reasonable right to the expectation that the product will be fixed or corrected and within a reasonable and fair amount of time to both parties. But if a developer indeed does a bad job in one or many areas and fails to address problems/issues in a blatant manner or just does bad business, they are as they should be, fair game.


Lastly, the reality is that there need be no guide or reiteration of how anyone needs to act. All the rules and threats of banishment over hotheadedness and various scopes of disagreements isn’t going to change a thing. The vast majority of us are civilized people who need not such preaching’s. Point being that if you’re going to allow an open forum to discuss technical aspects of this hobby & endeavor, you have to assume and expect a significant amount of risk of either criticism and/or discontent every now and then. If there is an issue with someone(a regular) having a problem, it is likely something that can be resolved peacefully out of sight and allow the jets to cool a bit. If not and a heavy hand is wielded to keep order, no good will come of it and this forum will likely go the way of past forums in a pattern of negative reputation and eventual self destruction . Despite what some here may think, this place is starting to get a negative reputation out of reach of ears and sight of many here. I hope and pray things don’t continue going in the wrong direction. If they do, I will be out of here for good...

The dustdevils and repetitive “do as I say” guides need to cease......

“Neutrality”

DFA

[PRB]

I agree with those who think a guide to constructive criticism is unnecessary. I’ve been around here quite a while, and have seen these food fights between developers and users erupt from time to time. Sometimes the constructive criticism is delivered in public and in a somewhat haughty tone, but it turns out they are correct. Sometime not. Even when correct, some will think the detail being pointed out is unimportant, and raise the “rivet-counter” flag. Others will think the detail being pointed out is important. A food fight ensues.

If it’s a plane I’m really really interested in, and I see something I think may not be right, I bring it up via PM. I think that is the most respectful way to do it. This usually works out pretty good. Usually. If at that point, I get treated as a no-good-for-nuthing-troublemaking rivet-counter, I will just drop it and cease all further comment on that product, good or bad!

[tigisfat]

Actually, yes you do, the owners and the other members of this private forum civility and courtesy. If you or anyone else feels the need to pick about a purchase they can do so on their respective product forums as this is not an addon support forum.You're taking what I said out of context a little bit. I'm not suggesting that any developer here has ripped me off; I'm saying that ripping someone off is a very 'uncivil' act that shows a lack of courtesy. In that case, I don't think I need to extend to them anything. I would owe it to the community to alert them to the situation while remaining in compliance with this private forum's rules. I'm not suggesting that this is a support forum, but we've been told before that negative reviews are completely acceptable if stated wisely.

This is a great place filled with great developers. I can't think of any developers of ill intent or bad repute that come here, but I can think of a few elsewhere. You have a very positive attitude, but I'd hope that even you would warn me about any business that you felt was up to no good.



Actually we have a high rate of modelers and developers on this board, so there are quite a few that could qualify, Then I wasn't really referring to them. Besides devs, there are a few people around here with extremely keen eyes for detail. I was blown away when the one gentleman pointed out the incorrect angle on the vertical stabilizers of Dino's F-14.


unfortunately we have a few that "think" they are more qualified than the original author which is where the problem starts many times.Then these are quite possibly the people I was talking about.


While I agree with Gibbage (great post BTW) the problem comes when we think everyone has been raised in the same environment and as such follow the same set of guidelines/rules/morals on how to treat others and that just isn't the case. Throw some language barriers in the mix and issues will occur.I agree whole heartedly. I've been in this situation myself; being abroad with a limited grasp of the local language is rough. You can be as polite as possible and mean well, and still come off rude as hell. For this reason we shouldn't be so quick to judge new posters. Fortunately, English is the common language of the world and it is the primary means of conveyance here.

[PRB]

There’s no such thing as being qualified or un-qualified to “pick apart” an FS model. It doesn’t work that way. Either the “picker-aparter” is correct, or isn’t correct. The very idea that this or that person is “unqualified” (based on what?) to make a comment about WIP is part of the problem around here. We seem to have trouble here isolating the commenter from the comment. If the commenter is “in” then it’s ok. I’ve seen a payware model released a few years ago that was shaped very wrong in a very vital part of the airplane. Somebody pointed it out, and he was raked over the coals for it here. He was correct, but what did that matter? He wasn’t even rude about it. He just wasn’t “qualified”, I suppose. He was even told he was wrong. Yes, the model was fixed.

[dcc]

Simulation is at its heart approximation. The degree of fidelity depends on many, many factors and as much as sims are built on science and engineering principles, I believe FS has a good bit of of art in it. And where there's art there is room for interpretation and all that goes along with that. Two different artists painting or sculpting a subject will bring out different aspects of that subject and will end up with different works of art.

When offering critique it's good to consider the designer's intentions, which may or may not be evident in a few screen shots. Most may assume a designer is going for exactness and accuracy with respect to the subject being modeled, where the designer may actually be deliberately taking artisitc license for whatever reason. Sort of like comparing a Norman Rockwell with a Monet or Picasso.

just my two yen

- dcc




- dcc

[tigisfat]

Simulation is at its heart approximation. The degree of fidelity depends on many, many factors and as much as sims are built on science and engineering principles..... Very well said.



...........where the designer may actually be deliberately taking artisitc license for whatever reason.

Sir, please show me a payware developer that advertises their works as produced with artistic license. You were right about a simulation being an approximation, but by definition a simulation seeks to make things as real as possible.

[dcc]

Very well said.




Sir, please show me a payware developer that advertises their works as produced with artistic license. You were right about a simulation being an approximation, but by definition a simulation seeks to make things as real as possible.



didn't realize this discussion was limited to payware companies...

- dcc

[tigisfat]

didn't realize this discussion was limited to payware companies...

- dcc

Touche. Now I must cover my tracks:
http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/forum%20commentary%20pictures/Youwillforget.gif

[dcc]

hehe, good one :d What was it I was just reading ? .... :jump:

- dcc

[peter12213]

I don't get it if I was working towards a goal I would wan't you to help me make my project better by telling me so! Plus you spell criticism with a C not an S lol!
Another thing is when we buy aircraft or download them its up 2 us what we do with them I don't mean sharing them or anything like that, but if we need to modify an aircraft because it doesn't work, meet our expectations or just needs an fsx revamp then why shouldn't we be able to change it?

[tigisfat]

but if we need to modify an aircraft because it doesn't work, meet our expectations or just needs an fsx revamp then why shouldn't we be able to change it?


Come again?

I don't think anybody said that, did they? Most big-time EULAs would prevent you from modifications, but I don't think any MSFS dev cares about your modifications. Most would be interested to find out that someone enjoyed their product more by applying 'X' homemade mod. You just can't distribute.

[peter12213]

Thats what I meant what you said, I didn't mean changing anybodies work for distribution just for personal use.