A short editorial about flight sim developers (thoughts and contribution please)

[tigisfat]

Hey guys, I just wanted to say a few things about the state of private-party MSFS development given recent developments. Feel free to reply with your own thoughts and differences, but we can talk about this without insulting anyone.


There are many different kinds of MSFS developers, even though their products appear to compete with each other. Many devs have different goals as well. We have large (respectively) companies with hundreds of employees with full time dedicated teams, we have medium sized consortiums of part-time employees with the occasional full-time position, we have small businesses of nothing but part-timers and we of course have freeware makers. I've learned in time that some have hundreds of thousands of dollars in play while some may make only a few thousand dollars out of a product with a thousand hours of development time. We can't compare the huge businesses with the tiny ones, or expect the tiny ones to have the same resources.

Some developers believe in nothing but good will, and they maintain great relationships with their customers. We've also seen the downsides. There are developers out to tell us anything we want to hear even if it's a stretch of the truth. Some developers are notorious for horrible customer support. While I believe that a company should always be publically discussed, I also believe that we institute our own statutes and limitations on what we say. These teams and companies are constantly evolving as their personal lives and part time interests change. Employees come and go. A company shouldn't be scolded for a period of inactivity or even a seemingly poor release of two years ago because things really do change that fast. On the same token, we can't hammer a developer's website for blandness when they've had a period of mainstream inactivity. Maybe they have a great product coming for us, and just maybe they didn't care about profits and providing us with front page eye candy. Part-timers are allowed periods where they don't dance for the public, right?

There are quite a few smaller companies out there. A recent trend has been outsourcing work. This obviously allows a developer to speed products to the market. Should we be against it? I don't think so. Many didn't appreciate the flood of Alphasim products last year, but they did further our hobby and bring things to fruition that we love. Many don't care for Alphasim's leader, but that doesn't mean the whole team must suffer. That brings me to another point.

Should we hold interpersonal problems against an entire development team? NO. Does anyone disagree? I know of multiple companies that have employees who've never met each other face to face. Again, why make them all suffer?

When's a negative product comment fair? I do believe there's a time and place, and the place is here. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. The time is when you've purchased a newer product you don't like and want others to have a fair review, when you see glaring problems (and provide evidence), when asked for opinions by other forum goers (even if a product is old, but try to keep things in perspective) and the final reason is if you've been burned. If you must talk about horrible service, give the dev an honest chance to make it right. People work all over the world and in different time zones. Just because your download button or activation doesn't work doesn't mean it's their fault. A lot of devs purchase ebusiness utilities, and many have problems. If you go screaming online about it, they very well could've had a quick fix for you on YOUR COMPUTER the second they woke up and got to theirs. How would you feel if you purchased expensive business management/download software and it constantly let you down?

What about marketing techniques? Just because a product is marketed as 'budget' or 'recession' priced, doesn't mean that it's a d-list product. It also doesn't mean that it can't compete with products priced well out of it's range. Maybe we should take these things as blessings. I like products that are priced low, don't you? There are surely frustrated people out there right now feeling like they can't do anything right.

We owe it to ourselves and this hobby to accurately bring up negative reviews and concerns, but we must have perspective. I've negatively reviewed products here before, and been flamed. Sometimes I regret the choice of words I've used in the past, but I don't regret a bad review because I'd like to think I considered things fairly. My most infamous review was of the IRIS F-14, and I still stand by that review. However, I am open to IRIS products in the future, I consider Warchild an online friend and I respect Smudge. The Vulcan appeared to be a solid release that we all needed.

[deathfromafar]

Well said Tigisfat.

In dozens of private discussions both here, other sites and even in person or by phone, many well covered issues were raked and combed along in finite detail regarding issues and/or shortcomings related to payware products. Many folks mean nothing personal when they describe their dislikes of something in particular whether it is with a given product, company policies, or the personal trepidations of a given personality. The medium of the internet doesn't always capture the true to life feelings of what a person may try to convey to individuals or the masses (even discounting language barriers or use of auto translators). Often many who might possibly be misinterpreted are only trying to voice concern based on past or current negative experiences they have been through with a particular developer or vendor. Not every complaint is a case of sour grapes nor by the same token are all gripes legit. The general hope is that legit concerns are brought to light and hopefully a good course of action will help to better the experience for both parties and iron out wrinkles here and there.

I would simply add that before too many folks blow a cork over certain things, take a step back and breath deeply before typing a response. Chances are less flustering and happier outcomes will be the result.


Happy Flying Everyone! :icon29:

[Smudge]

I have to second this posting. Tigisfat brings up some fair and well thought out points.

I myself have my own fair share of commercial products, including but not limited to PMDG stuff, Captain Sim's 757 and a bunch of Aerosoft products.. Sure there are some things I've got which have been a waste of money in my opinion, but then that's not so say that others are very happy with the very same purchases..

Me? I like tubeliners! lol...now there's something I bet you never thought you'd hear!

[CBris]

In the real world I am in aerospace quality assurance where I am responsible for the standards employed by our suppliers. The aerospace world is very clearly regulated about what is good quality and how we go about achieving the best possible standards. Even so, with all the outsourcing that goes on, we still get quality escapes and "recal actions".

The thing is, our suppliers listen to us when we visit. a. the have to by law and b. they want to out of common sense. Of course we get moans about what we demand (for our customers are very demanding) and there is resistance as well sometimes.

But at least we talk and can talk, even when the language gets "hotter".

The sim industry is nowhere near as big, but it is still business, and the people producing the products that we want to buy are supposed to be in business.

Not listening is one of the biggest problems around. All too often I see a total unwillingness to respond to the market by developers. One of the more negative results is that "We, the people..." end up frustrated and join in the "slanging matches" which don't take that long to start at all.

The aerospace simulation market really needs a commercial watchdog and a set of industry standards so that a common view of what defines quality can be reached and how such quality can be maintained. In the real world we have Aerospace Standards such as AS9100 and watchdogs such as the International Aerospace Quality Group. Above that we have the EASA and FAA and all the other national bodies setting down laws for our business.

In the sim world we are somewhere around the early nineteen hundreds still. Anyone can build a plane and say it is certified to the Wright Brothers' standards of flight.

We need standards and independant watchdogs in the sim world too.

Cost? Yes. But remember:

"The cost of quality is less than the amount you would have saved if you had got your product right the first time"

[tigisfat]

Chris, I respectfully disagree. One of the main points of my editorial is about not comparing all flight sim developers against each other. This market is one untainted by oversight, and is so beautifully untouched that it is capitalism in it's truest form. To encourage constant startups and new ideas, it must remain that way. The minute we compare and regulate all the many different kinds of development is the same minute that we start discouraging progress.

We have several grassroots efforts out there to alert potential consumers of poor quality, and they are serving us well. As for consumers that aren't active in this community, they will simply be less likely to purchase from an offending developer again. Again, such is capitalism, and it's beautiful.

http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt32/walkeramerican/forum%20commentary%20pictures/1228205180491.jpg

[CBris]

That is valid and true of course. I even agree with it. I just don't like or approve of some of the tat we are expected to pay for when folk like Piglet, Milton and co. can do better for less.

I would still like to see a watchdog - not a rule maker, a watchdog. But of course in the long run it would indeed be a case of:

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Oh - the market may be untainted by oversight, but it is still very much tainted by developers not seeing the lack of quality. That is no negation of what they do, but extra eyes see more and trained extra eyes see even more still. But yes, regulation can cause indigestion. There are two sides and more in this kind of debate and we need to see them too.

[Lionheart]

We have several grassroots efforts out there to alert potential consumers of poor quality, and they are serving us well. As for consumers that aren't active in this community, they will simply be less likely to purchase from an offending developer again. Again, such is capitalism, and it's beautiful.



Well, if you're just out to destroy new development groups, then thats the way to go.

If you want to make unprofessional and rude remarks instead of something like 'the VC is a bit simple', then that is how you will be viewed.

This is a rough business. When I first started, my planes were really rough.. Very rough. But some poeple sent some good comments and some advice my way and it fueled me to keep going. I am sorry for alot of these people that have nut cases that go off on them and run them in the ground. This is a very difficult field, making these elaborate models. I still find mysteries in air files and I have been doing this for way over 10 years.. Hitting down on someone to bury them when they have been doing it for a year is pure evil. But hey, you back that up. You say so you can 'shut down' those groups.

Your wake will be a destruction in this hobby, not growing it and making it better..



Bill

[Lionheart]

And no... I am in no way saying to 'hide' negative aspects of a model. I am saying, 'do it professionally'. Do it in a civilized manner. Dont shoot them dead because you dont like their model. Be nice..

Voice your views in a way that wont sink ships but cause them to make their planes massively better.. Help them get better.

Strife destroys..



Bill

[tigisfat]

Well, if you're just out to destroy new development groups, then thats the way to go.

I only brought up these groups to compare them to formal regulation and oversight. In the face of actual oversight, small review sites like VFRreviews.com will always be more healthy for the industry. I wasn't saying that people should get together and smash developers. Please don't misunderstand me.

We've been through this polite versus rude thing many times before; probably about once a month. That's not what my editorial was about. It was about when criticism's even fair in light of recent events.




Your wake will be a destruction in this hobby, not growing it and making it better..


huh? :blind:

[gera]

In the real world I am in aerospace quality assurance where I am responsible for the standards employed by our suppliers. The aerospace world is very clearly regulated about what is good quality and how we go about achieving the best possible standards. Even so, with all the outsourcing that goes on, we still get quality escapes and "recal actions".

The thing is, our suppliers listen to us when we visit. a. the have to by law and b. they want to out of common sense. Of course we get moans about what we demand (for our customers are very demanding) and there is resistance as well sometimes.

But at least we talk and can talk, even when the language gets "hotter".

The sim industry is nowhere near as big, but it is still business, and the people producing the products that we want to buy are supposed to be in business.

Not listening is one of the biggest problems around. All too often I see a total unwillingness to respond to the market by developers. One of the more negative results is that "We, the people..." end up frustrated and join in the "slanging matches" which don't take that long to start at all.

The aerospace simulation market really needs a commercial watchdog and a set of industry standards so that a common view of what defines quality can be reached and how such quality can be maintained. In the real world we have Aerospace Standards such as AS9100 and watchdogs such as the International Aerospace Quality Group. Above that we have the EASA and FAA and all the other national bodies setting down laws for our business.

In the sim world we are somewhere around the early nineteen hundreds still. Anyone can build a plane and say it is certified to the Wright Brothers' standards of flight.

We need standards and independant watchdogs in the sim world too.

Cost? Yes. But remember:

"The cost of quality is less than the amount you would have saved if you had got your product right the first time"

To ask for a "watchdog" in the tiny world of Flight sims is a perfect way of killing the "industry".......Amigo I totally disagree with you!!!!!!! specially since most addons are freeware....C´man, this is for the birds!!!!.........:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::i con_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::i con_lol::icon_lol:

[gera]

And no... I am in no way saying to 'hide' negative aspects of a model. I am saying, 'do it professionally'. Do it in a civilized manner. Dont shoot them dead because you dont like their model. Be nice..

Voice your views in a way that wont sink ships but cause them to make their planes massively better.. Help them get better.

Strife destroys..



Bill

Bill you are so right, and as a developer you really know what you are talking about. There is a way of saying what you want to say without "torpedoing your Tender ship"......:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy::gameoff::game off:

[dswo]

1. Chris, I think that the regulatory body you describe already exists: it's this forum.

2. What was different about the weekend: instead of criticizing products, articulately or inarticulately, a couple of members criticized people. I don't object to that theoretically. What a subcontractor said about non-payment from a contractor makes me uneasy. If it's true (and we only heard one side of the story) then public shame is appropriate, just as public praise was appropriate for the contractor's other products. Also, reputations are useful. Yes, a bad company can improve, and a good company can coast. But reputations catch up.

3. That being said, articulate criticism of products is essential. Criticism of people and companies is useful, but messier and less necessary; I could see the practical case for prohibiting it.

[Francois]

Don't exactly understand what this is all about..... I guess I missed something along the way... but watchdogs and quality seals are total overkill in my humble opinion.

When I left the corporate world I also left behind, forcefully, some of the fads and hypes that belong there.... things like '360 degree evaluation', 'town meetings', 'think global, act local', 'downsizing', 'outsourcing', 'global standardization', 'war on suppliers' and another few I don't even care to remember. All there mainly to wow management and stock holders and not really adding anything to the bottom line.

Flight Simulation is a hobby, and apart from that mainly a Mom and Pop Business for those few of us that have enough money and spare time to be able to afford to work on it..... there also is quite a lot of competition these days, not in the least since every person on the globe with only superficial PC skills, some rudimentary 3D program and Photoshop, is now making 'payware' add-ons for our simulators.

That in itself might warrant some sort of 'quality seal', but lets be serious: that's hardly realistic. There's no consensus ANYWHERE as to what represents 'quality' and what doesn't, in most forums both users and devs are not in agreement with each other, and on top of it all most devs/publishers are usually hanging on their finger nails off the roof's edge at the 10th floor and can't even afford the time to battle pirates, let alone try and stick to some standard of quality 'someone' might try to impose on them.

Lets face it folks, this has worked for the better part of 25 years the way it has.... a self-regulating market, and I bet ya it will do so for the next 25 as well.

I also think that as soon as this whole business will start to look too much like 'work', most professional devs will drop it faster than you can wink an eye. Almost all of us are in here to make a buck BUT to have fun doing what we love doing at the same time..... :jump:

If we make a crap product, word will get out and soon enough we won't sell any copies of it anymore.... unless we bang them in a box and sell them at the Wal-Marts where none-hobbyists buy anything with a nice catchy picture on it..... :guinness:

[N400QW]

Couldn't agree more Francois. Overexposure to "corporate mindset/jargon" and "regulatory responsibility flim/flam" should be labeled "Hazardous to one's mental well being":isadizzy:

Users have common sense to guide them thru the maze of life and there is no need for yet another "panel of experts" to keep them "safe" from FS Developers.:wiggle:

As in any other retail business, customers speak by their purchase decisions and that is as it should be.:wavey:

[gajit]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????

[CrisGer]

Kindness and courtesy are the keys to any sharing. Essential in fact. They as principles make working thru any difficulties and disagreements not only possible but a positive exchange instead of a rock throwing match that no one wins. In my humble and very simple opinion keeping these principles will aleviate and prevent and heal incidents that may occur or have occured. And keeping things open and free will allow people to share as they can...and for quality to be its own best spokesman.

[CodyValkyrie]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????
In today's industry, where sales are in the hundreds and not thousands like it used to be, it is absolutely and utterly true! People are being smarter with their money and don't want to waste it. Hence the, in many cases, thousands of views on topics with only a handful of comments. Bad early commentary can KILL an addon. Sometimes, if developers are lucky and have enough time, they can market well enough to overcome this to some degree. Let's face it though, many developers have names for themselves that have stuck well beyond the original reasoning that they earned those names.....

[gajit]

In today's industry, where sales are in the hundreds and not thousands like it used to be, it is absolutely and utterly true! People are being smarter with their money and don't want to waste it. Hence the, in many cases, thousands of views on topics with only a handful of comments. Bad early commentary can KILL an addon. Sometimes, if developers are lucky and have enough time, they can market well enough to overcome this to some degree. Let's face it though, many developers have names for themselves that have stuck well beyond the original reasoning that they earned those names.....

Even so - SOH must remain independent of Devs - even the 12 or so I really admire and will buy from without even looking at all the copy and limited screenshots on their own websites. This is a vital forum for anyone to visit who wants to read first hand "experiences" about a product.

That said - this forum causes me to buy more than discard!! My credit card statement each month proves that :ernae:

[Henry]

Is SOH really so powerful that a few factual observations on ommissions or unrealistic elements of a product can make a difference to sales????????
I do not believe that it is this site in particular
But we have all kinds of people here
Developers, customers, Trouble makers:icon_lol:
This is a hobby for all in general
and we are all passionate about it
even being Admin here is a hobby
thats a big melting pot
and we all are experts in our own minds:kilroy: and there
are true experts out there also
i have always said if we were in a bar together
there would be a big brawl.
I do believe this site is different than most
because we are that melting pot
this is the outhouse:icon_lol:
in my opinion we should not be the tech support
and grievance board for any one
most of those issues should be brought up
to the individual developer
i said most, sometimes, people get frustrated when
they cannot, then i believe its fair to ask a question here.
Regulator body?
who the hill wants that job, everyone is biased to a certain point, bad enough just to keep peace.
as far as bad products i have purchased a few
do you know what ones, no i do not complain
in public i just learn, what i may consider a bad purchase
others may love or vice versa
crazy world aint it
H

[CodyValkyrie]

Gajit, don't mistake my remarks as a case to bend to the will of developers. I'm only stating that yes, comments DO make a difference in sales.

[gajit]

Gajit, don't mistake my remarks as a case to bend to the will of developers. I'm only stating that yes, comments DO make a difference in sales.


I wont - and I apprechiate what you say and will continue to praise the 95% of great products as much as I can in hope that in some small way I can encourage sales.

[CBris]

OK, I bow.

[CBris]

But I still have to dig...

Airfix, Revell, Tamiya, Triang Hornby, Märklin... all great "Toy makers" with passionate hobbyists in their ranks of customers and staff. In fact there's probably more anoraks in the model railway scene...

...but all have a professional attitude to their product. I don't want us to create a regulatory body as such. I want to see better standards. There is a ifference. Much less than that between Huey Cobra and Huey Iroquois. But a difference nevertheless.

You say the poor devs will learn the hard way by losing sales. BUT they will still sell too many low quality products before the market catches on. We'll still have spent money on products which aren't up to what we have every right to expect. There are a lot of freeware devs who make good and better (than) payware. Great. I love the Piglets and Pipers...

The worst products come from the so-called commercial companies - and for them it IS work. They are in it for money. They pay for registration as a GmbH or a Ltd. or an SA...

I don't expect "hobby" standards from them. I demand quality as a paying customer.

Oh, yes... many of their developers are amateur (freelance), but that does not relieve the "Limited Company" of any obligation to publish products of a lousy standard with silly mapping errors that even the blind can see.

Heel Guys. You spend two years of love on a model as a freelance and then cock it up with an error that can be fixed in minutes - and then blame everyone else but yourself and maybe the ten minutes with the SDK that even a numty like me can read? And you wonder where I am coming from? I know of several planes that have even been in Beta longer than that. And they still have issues (I won't say bugs, but things that FSX can't apparently support. Fair do's.)

Macromedia paid staff told me that Flash couldn't produce gradient transparency masks that follow the mouse - it took me three weeks with the handbook to produce exactly that effect ten years ago - I am not and never will or want to be a programmer, but I know that if you can think it you can programme it. I dread to think if I could ever find the time and money to learn 3DS Max... but you are lucky. yet.

The Nemeth brothers do a darn sight better job than some of the real commercials. Even Mike "CYUL" does better than one or two (nay, most) of the Limiteds...

But if you are a registered tax paying company with staff, an office, production premises... well you can do better. No MUST do better. Not just for yourselves, but also as an obligation to your free-lancers too.

I hear the other side. I tend to agree with the other side, but I still see mistakes being made where none should be happening. So whilst I hear the moans and sighs of "That bl**dy eejit Brisland", I do know we would all benefit from a more professional approach from certain quarters. Good quality won't cost any more. What you save on the recalls, you pay the the Q people. But it WILL reduce bad feeling amongst the paying clientele. And HAPPY customers buy more.

Oh - dispute with me by all means, but please be gentle with the four letter PMs. :) :kilroy:

Active debate, not slanging. I take an unpopular stand, but someone has to...

[N400QW]

Chris, your call for higher standards and a more professional approach does not fall on deaf ears.
The negative blowback you may experience is due to a basic assumption by many, that the path to such goals is yet another regulatory body or set of actions by self appointed "experts".
At the end of the day, this discussion, like it predecessors will die a slow death and those who have integrity will continue to prosper while those who do not will fall by the wayside.
This applies to developers and customers alike. :mixedsmi:

[gajit]

And HAPPY customers buy more...

:ernae:

[Francois]

I take an unpopular stand, but someone has to...


Ummmm... not necessarily.... I for one just enjoy simming from time to time. Yeah right :bump:

But you still miss the point... Airfix, Tamiya, whoever... they are all BIG companies..

Cor-Po-Ra-Tions ! !

With room to spare for overhead staff and managers.... with customers maybe suing them for 100's of millions if a guy cracks through a chair or trips over a barbecue or other 'dangerous tool' .....

'We', kind Sir, are not. We're one-man bands mostly.... working from our garden sheds, bedrooms and the occasional office in the basement, making some sort of sophisticated toys..... There, I said it !

There's a difference ;-)

[gajit]

At the end of the day, this discussion, like it predecessors will die a slow death and those who have integrity will continue to prosper while those who do not will fall by the wayside.
This applies to developers and customers alike. :mixedsmi:

That sums it nicely :ernae: - woops Ive just fallln :isadizzy:

[Panther_99FS]

I'm debating whether or not to post a comment...

However, after last night's escapades, I'm currently not in the mood....

[Henry]

I'm debating whether or not to post a comment...

However, after last night's escapades, I'm currently not in the mood....
ya can always come over to my house
ive got beer:guinness: an we can type together:icon_lol:
H

[gajit]

It must have been bad - that last night thing - if you need safety in numbers!!

[krazycolin]

Well, I'm being sued by a developer who hasn't paid me yet. How do you think I feel about this industry?

I'm honest and look what it's got me? no money and a bad rep.

grrrrr...

kc
edit: yes... it was VERY bad... and still ongoing though not online...

[CodyValkyrie]

-EDIT-

I think in time, everything gets sorted out.

-FURTHER EDIT-

Let's just keep this forum independant and about our hobby, flight simming.

[Kiwikat]

I'm debating whether or not to post a comment...

However, after last night's escapades, I'm currently not in the mood....

Same here... :frown:

[Cag40Navy]

well, its a community that even if you play earlier version's of MSFS, that in time we are aviation hobbiest. this community will lose and gain great people and payware companys. this is also a community that will grow and shrink with the times, but i think when Tig's whent into a speach about it. He thought about what he was saying and made true comments thaty reflect on the FS community.

[N400QW]

The "community" is not well served by those with an agenda be they consumer, developer, or public forum.

If some of the things I've heard thru the grapevine are true then many will kiss this and other forums a not so fond goodbye.

Like it or not, commercial developers do provide a benefit to users. Unfair, underhanded, or illegal practices have led to the demise or extreme decline of more than one "cottage industry".

Let's hope that this "community" wakes up to the fact that illicit attacks on providers reduces the "fun factor" to the extent they may just unhang the shingle and move on to greener pastures.:isadizzy:

[MCDesigns]

i have always said if we were in a bar together
there would be a big brawl.

No kidding Henry!!! :ernae:

[N332DW]

i'm so glad i only make freeware, no warranties , no stress , no money , no worries...

it diffuses the whole topic of this thread - i make stuff - i give stuff away - like it ,keep it - hate it ,delete it

simple is good - phew :wiggle:

[Gibbage]

I dont think to compare us to Airfix, Tamiya and the like is proper. The main reason is they sell to thousands of people if not millions. I see there kits on store shelfs all the time. On the other hand, we have (if we are lucky) hundreds of customers, and they all visit the same forums. If someone bashes a Tamiya model for missing a panel line, it may effect .001% of there customer base. If someone bashes our models for the same, it effects 100% of our customer base. As anyone who has ever put together a model can attest, even a company with great resources like Tamiya can make a mistake. We work off of EXTREMELY limited resources. Mostly what can be scavenged off of the internet, or at the local museums. Yes, we are bound to make errors, but bashing such errors does the community no good, and is in fact a disservice to everyone. Noting them in a critique will help everyone.

As for "regulation" things for the most part self-regulate. We make bad models, they dont sell. No sales, no more models. It truly is that simple. Thats how free enterprise works. Supply and demand.

[Piglet]

i'm so glad i only make freeware, no warranties , no stress , no money , no worries...

it diffuses the whole topic of this thread - i make stuff - i give stuff away - like it ,keep it - hate it ,delete it

simple is good - phew :wiggle:


:ernae::ernae::ernae: I hear ya! :ernae:
Just wish my beer was freeware!
<!-- / message -->

[gera]

I dont think to compare us to Airfix, Tamiya and the like is proper. The main reason is they sell to thousands of people if not millions. I see there kits on store shelfs all the time. On the other hand, we have (if we are lucky) hundreds of customers, and they all visit the same forums. If someone bashes a Tamiya model for missing a panel line, it may effect .001% of there customer base. If someone bashes our models for the same, it effects 100% of our customer base. As anyone who has ever put together a model can attest, even a company with great resources like Tamiya can make a mistake. We work off of EXTREMELY limited resources. Mostly what can be scavenged off of the internet, or at the local museums. Yes, we are bound to make errors, but bashing such errors does the community no good, and is in fact a disservice to everyone. Noting them in a critique will help everyone.

As for "regulation" things for the most part self-regulate. We make bad models, they dont sell. No sales, no more models. It truly is that simple. Thats how free enterprise works. Supply and demand.

You are so right. The gentleman wanting to regulate this hobby thinks by comparing "Tamiya or Revell" that our hobby is as big as those, obviously its like comparing Mangos with peanuts.......The more regulation on anything usually makes it worst, just like governments today.....Oh, well, I am sure this "Tiny, tiny" hobby, which most humans don´t even know it exists, will not get the regulations most anyone do not want nor need. Instead of regulations ( Nasa Like apparently), what we need is reviews and more reviews of the models made and let the reader deside if he wants to spend the "huge ammount of dollars" they cost. More pics in forums like these and users telling their experience, that will make sales or not. Besides, if you look at this tiny hobby most models are Freeware and "regulations" could never apply......The more regulations this world has, the more humanity is encaged by those with power, like you say free enterprise works on self regulation by producing a good product for survival, but as you know the current "fad" is a go back to the Dreams of Socialism where every aspect of life "must be regulated"!!!!.....Oh well, that´s that, now back to my freeware Mission in China that will Not get regulated Never!!!!!!!:pop4::pop4::pop4:...not even by the Chinese!!!!!

[tigisfat]

Wow, this went off topic quick.:icon_lol:


An increase in quality will not stop consumers from complaining, and a stop to consumer complaining won't stop sensitive developers from getting their feelings hurt. You guys are right, noone should get bagged on all the time; but have you ever noticed that it's the same people who get all hurt about everything? People are way to sensitive here.

Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community, consumers and developers alike. First off, I took FSD's side in that whole rediculous altercation (if you can call it that). Second off, he didn't even say anything that bad. He said that their website was plain and old, and that their releases were weak and had boring screenshots. He also said that Milviz would be better served by another developer. He was jumped on by a few people, (whihc is par for the course) but is anyone here really ready to say that what happened was that big of a deal? I don't want any developer to leave this community; I just don't think anyone should lose sleep over diegomenendez.

[gera]

Wow, this went off topic quick.:icon_lol:


An increase in quality will not stop consumers from complaining, and a stop to consumer complaining won't stop sensitive developers from getting their feelings hurt. You guys are right, noone should get bagged on all the time; but have you ever noticed that it's the same people who get all hurt about everything? People are way to sensitive here.

Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community, consumers and developers alike. First off, I took FSD's side in that whole rediculous altercation (if you can call it that). Second off, he didn't even say anything that bad. He said that their website was plain and old, and that their releases were weak and had boring screenshots. He also said that Milviz would be better served by another developer. He was jumped on by a few people, (whihc is par for the course) but is anyone here really ready to say that what happened was that big of a deal? I don't want any developer to leave this community; I just don't think anyone should lose sleep over diegomenendez.

Lets fly Man!!! lets fly...that is our hobby you know........your point has been taken and is now Kaput.......let´s fly Man....or Drive your Train!!!!!:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy::gameoff:

Quote: " Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community,".....Ehem.....hummmm, to many We are not Mature!!!! we play with our computer!!!!! hummmmmm, ummmmmm, Let´s play Man!!!!!!! where are my toys!!!!!!!!! Mamma!!! Mamma Mia!!!!!!...................

[tigisfat]

Lets fly Man!!! lets fly...that is our hobby you know........your point has been taken and is now Kaput.......let´s fly Man....or Drive your Train!!!!!:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy::gameoff:

Quote: " Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community,".....Ehem.....hummmm, to many We are not Mature!!!! we play with our computer!!!!! hummmmmm, ummmmmm, Let´s play Man!!!!!!! where are my toys!!!!!!!!! Mamma!!! Mamma Mia!!!!!!...................


:icon_lol::pop4:

[bazzar]

Net profit for most "payware developers" would be around a few thousand dollars for the better selling titles, a lot less for the less so. And that might be over say two years.

To inject a "standards" board into the industry would also inject cost and time into the processes that would propel prices beyond what most of you could afford. $200 for an add-on and that would be a bargain.

What businessperson in their right mind would spend more dollars and time against such meagre returns? It's why we're all crazy and do it because we like simming.

I agree with Gera here, just fly and enjoy. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Buyer beware. That goes for plastic models as much as it does for 3D ones.:engel016:

[heywooood]

I try to remember that these FS third party contributors ARE FS...even more than FS is FS... especially now that FS is in limbo.

be it freeware or payware, and between the two there are various levels of talent obviously as with any artistic or technical skill, such will always be the case - the important thing for us to respect is their willingness to do the work and make it available to us. After that its all about choices - we can either choose to acquire the work or pass on it. I think a good percentage of the criticism is less about the author and more about the ego of the critic.:kilroy:

a whole lot of defecation where we eat is bound to be counterproductive.

[crashaz]

I see it as more than just a hobby when I attend the Avsim flight sim conventions. Maybe because Aces was so involved over the latter years.

I think the most I take out of every convention though is that behind these 'Payware' companies.... are real people... who do this out of their love of flying. I don't think I ever asked a question about a project that they were presenting... where they did not know the minute details of the scenery/aircraft they were attempting to represent.

LOL... I can tell you for sure that no one gets into the FS development industry to get rich!

If people got to meet these designers... then I think they would be more apt to be more human... we all know how anonymous the Internet can be. Just human nature...to see the person... and not the company.

SOH is really a lucky place as it has more designers interacting with the members than any other board I know.
Ok there may be more higher profile participation by one or a few developers at other boards. Here though the public and developers mesh very well normally and really the developers participate here more than just posting pics and offer comments and opinions in other threads.


A very nice niche we have here.

[Kiwikat]

I've been thinking of what to say for the last couple days, so here it is. Of course this is all MY OPINION and does not represent any company I currently test for or have tested for... Who knows, I might even be wrong! That's part of the fun of discussion. :engel016:

As someone who is opinionated as I am (as you all know :icon_lol:), I really enjoy the opportunity to discuss things on forums. When I feel I need to add criticism of some sort, it always goes through my head that everyone here's going to flame me for what I say, if it is even slightly negative. That usually doesn't stop me, and I go on to post what is on my mind. I'll admit to going overboard occasionally, but I almost always go back and fix it, usually on a little more personal level like an instant messenger.

I am a free speech advocate; however, Sim-Outhouse, and almost every other forum on the internet are not- rightfully so. It is necessary to moderate what people say in a society where there's always someone that takes offense to every word that comes out of someones mouth. Thus, it really is important to read over what you type at least a couple times before you reply.

Diego said some pretty harsh things with little to no evidence or ideas to back up his claims. I believe the moderators took the correct actions in moving the threads out of the public eye and at least temporarily banning him. (I don't know the duration of the ban) Though Diego may be gone, the problem still exists. Obviously, as Robert and FSD have not returned. As for negativity in general, by signing up on a forum, you are opening yourself up to debates and arguments. If you post a screenshot or preview of a product, you should be expecting criticism. Don't be surprised if someone follows through with it and posts something negative about your product. Hopefully, they will also post what they think is wrong and how the developer could fix it, and won't do what Diego did.

The current system is probably going to be as good as it will get. We will have to rely on people learning from their mistakes and not repeating them again. It is important that people with constructive opinions, both positive and negative, are able to express them. Readers need to remember the limitations of forum communication. If people find something to be really offensive, it is possible they took it the wrong way or the original poster didn't get their point across the way they meant to. In the cases where neither one of these is true, and it is just blatant bashing (like Diego's case), moderators must decide what to do. There will always be a need for steady-headed moderators such as the ones we have here.

Case in point, read over what you wrote before you post it.

Another big point in this thread is quality control.

The best and cheapest way for developers to ensure a quality product is by having dedicated and experienced beta testers. The latest Carenado plane is a good example of where simple beta testing would have ensured a smoother release. A thoroughly tested aircraft is almost always of better quality. It is definitely more enjoyable for the end user. In fact that is the main reason I beta test, so people enjoy a quality product that is worth their money. A happy customer is one who will return.

I believe the customers should determine who is successful and who is not. The market is a powerful thing. Companies who produce consistent high quality products tend to be the most popular, at least in the FS community. Doing this isn't the easiest thing to do, especially when you can't please everyone 100% of the time.

Talent and time are the things that set apart the very popular developers from the lesser known, less successful ones. That is they have a lot of time to work on their products and complete them in a reasonable amount of time. Subject matter also plays a role. Some people will pay for quality regardless what it is, but I believe those people to be the minority. A Cessna (insert number here) will always sell better than an obscure WWII fighter-bomber. Selling boxes also increases sales considerably. Sim-outhouse is obviously more interested in military aircraft, but if you go to any other mainstream FS community forum, civilian aircraft rule hands down. Finally, great customer relations and support (forums, updates, etc.) are also crucial to the online community. Obviously, most flight simulator developers have their own forums and online support due to the computer and internet-based nature of our hobby.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could succeed and make a living from FS products, but that is not the reality. The most talented and resourceful make it to the top.

I suppose that's enough for now. Much of it is common sense. Recently that common sense hasn't been as common as it should have been. It is a shame developers have decided to leave because of what certain members of the community said. The fall of ACES, hacking/loss of several flight simulator websites, and the current economic situation have all impacted our hobby in a significant way. This is definitely a time where we need to stick together. :ernae:

[2Low]

I've been thinking of what to say for the last couple days, so here it is....

A whole lot of truth...

... The fall of ACES, hacking/loss of several flight simulator websites, and the current economic situation have all impacted our hobby in a significant way. This is definitely a time where we need to stick together. :ernae:

Amen:engel016:

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

The Development community is grateful for the constructive input that participation in forums provides them towards the goal of creating productions that are as close to perfect as the platform allows, as well the camaraderie of one’s peers and clients within the framework of a friendly environment is invaluable.
But there are times such as has recently occurred that demonstrate a need for guidelines in etiquette to be established to provide for constructive criticism to be differentiated from destructive behaviour and it is to that end a moratorium was established by many members of the development community regarding WIP threads at SOH.
I am grateful for the support demonstrated from the Dev’s in abiding this objective and its aims , as well the vast majority of the membership of SOH has been beyond question of great help with this by contributing a positive influence with their thoughts on the subject .
The moratorium is not permanent , a duration of two weeks was requested to establish that our position be taken seriously , that position being a program or sticky post that provides guidelines for what is allowed and what is not permitted to be posted , defamatory remarks are what are in most cases the cause of strife and in many cases are not going to fall under the banner of constructive criticism.
The service that the membership provides in vetting our productions is invaluable , as are the friendships that are established in forum threads and we are grateful for them , but the influence that negativity has on the ‘’Fun Factor’’ can outweigh the positive by a wide margin and make being elsewhere seem a more comfortable choice , we ask only that common courtesy be the rule of thumb, its what makes the world go round smoothly , and its lack is what causes the problems.
My thanks for your consideration and support in trying to achieve this goal .
C. Jodry

[N400QW]

"we ask only that common courtesy be the rule of thumb..."

Certainly not too much to ask Chuck:applause:

[CodyValkyrie]

While I agree with some concepts of what is being said, I still do not see the need for regulatory measures to be taken. Water always finds its own level. I strongly oppose any regulatory measures to what may feel is protecting developers. It is a step in the wrong direction for a free thought forum in my opinion. Where is the line crossed?

I say the solution is simple. If you put your work out for criticism, expect it. If people say inflamatory comments, the moderators spank them down or quell the situation, as they do, and have always done. Asking SOH to change how they deal with the problem only serves to place a proverbial cast on a small cut. It to me is over obtrusive, abusive and only serves to give a scene of resentment, further rifting the community.

I'm sorry, but I will again say I am far and away against any regulatory measures that are not already currently in place.

Let's just get out and fly damnit, and frankly I don't see where any developer(s) should be telling SOH how to run their forum, no matter the talent, respect and following.

I'm sorry, but this is just the way I feel.

[Henry]

I say the solution is simple. If you put your work out for criticism, expect it. If people say inflamatory comments, the moderators spank them down or quell the situation, as they do, and have always done. Asking SOH to change how they deal with the problem only serves to place a proverbial cast on a small cut. It to me is over obtrusive, abusive and only serves to give a scene of resentment, further rifting the community.

I'm sorry, but I will again say I am far and away against any regulatory measures that are not already currently in place.

Let's just get out and fly damnit, and frankly I don't see where any developer(s) should be telling SOH how to run their forum, no matter the talent, respect and following.

I'm sorry, but this is just the way I feel.
I do not read it that way
I do not believe anyone is asking this site or telling us
for that matter how to do things
as far as the staff are concerned.
I believe we try to be fair
now of course we are not reading everything
thats posted at the time of posting
we cannot be everywhere 24/7
thats why we have the report post button
that does get our attention.
we have excellent staff here
who do there best
just my personal opinion
H

[anthony31]

Why does Sim-outhouse need to change their policies?

The staff at sim-outhouse handled the recent brouhaha rather well in my opinion. They removed the offensive posts and banned the member and pretty damn quickly too as I (like many others) never got to see what was originally posted. What more could they be expected to do? The only possible system to prevent such abuse in the future is that ALL posts must be submitted to the moderators who determine whether it gets posted or not. Not really that practical is it?

On another note Kiwikat's post says it all really. Developer's need customers (obviously) but customer's need developers. If we, as customers, constantly criticise developers who are probablly on making a couple of bucks an hour for their efforts then pretty soon developers will wonder why they bother and just walk away from FS. Not good for customers.

[Gibbage]

On another note Kiwikat's post says it all really. Developer's need customers (obviously) but customer's need developers. If we, as customers, constantly criticise developers who are probablly on making a couple of bucks an hour for their efforts then pretty soon developers will wonder why they bother and just walk away from FS. Not good for customers.

Thats quite frankly the truth of the situation. Only 3 things we can do.

#1, accept lower quality models from the smaller studio's (I dont want that)

#2, pay a lot more (You dont want that)

#3, we get more people interested in this hobby, or educate the millions of FSX users that there are forums like this, and 3rd party products.

None of the studio's have a budget to advertise, so we work 100% word-of-mouth. Thats why if we make a bad model, it dont sell.

[Henry]

What more could they be expected to do? The only possible system to prevent such abuse in the future is that ALL posts must be submitted to the moderators who determine whether it gets posted or not. Not really that practical is it?


not only not practical just plain stupid






None of the studio's have a budget to advertise, so we work 100% word-of-mouth. Thats why if we make a bad model, it dont sell.
that is correct but then we get back to the original problem one may think its bad another may not
opinions do vary:icon34:
dammed if ya do dammed if ya dont:isadizzy:
but i do believe in the end the truth shows its head
H

[Gibbage]

A bad product is called out for what it is. Its a risk, and one the dev's must accept like it or not. I in no way want to "hush up" bad reviews as long as they are legitimate. The biggest problem is people calling a product bad that's not even done or out yet. That's a complete disservice to the community and the developers.

[DennyA]

I had a lengthy post started about the nature of the net and how certain online personalities should just be ignored, even when they're customers, due to their posting motivations. But in the end, it doesn't say it any better than Gabe and Tycho did.

Why there's no solution to this issue. (http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/yhst-34640480252896_2054_2250527)

[Gibbage]

Penny Arcade Gabe and Tycho?

[DennyA]

Yep. Here's the original comic: Penny Arcade (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/)

WARNING TO THE MORE SENSITIVE SOULS: Foul language. :)

[robrealair]

Another big point in this thread is quality control.

The best and cheapest way for developers to ensure a quality product is by having dedicated and experienced beta testers.

Easy in theory, but hard in practice. Good beta testers are gold dust! Over the years we've kept our beta teams very small, as experience has shown us that the more one takes on, in some ways the less feedback one gets that is useful.

Many testers start with good intentions but fall by the wayside very quickly. Or others just want a freebie and after a couple of sentences in their initial report - often derogatory because they haven't read the very carefully prepared briefing on the test programme - they are not seen or heard of again!

Beta testing is an acquired skill and requires an educated balance between unnecessary pedantry and casual appreciation, neither extremes of which are of any real use to a developer. But most of all it requires the kind of time, concentration and dedication that most testers simply do not possess. It also requires a good command of language and the ability to express findings in a succinct and careful way. Not everyone is capable of this, even with good intentions.

But even a well tested addon can let things through the net. Sometimes the most obvious things get through, usually because it is so basic that no-one thought to check it. In addition, some customers get quite focussed on attributes that are special to them (we had one customer who was almost outraged that we let through a trim tab that was barely 3 degrees out of alignment) and no beta tester should reasonably be blamed for missing such a pedantic point.

In the end it is the developer's responsibility to check the quality of his work.


Rob Young - RealAir

[Piglet]

We need standards and independant watchdogs in the sim world too.
An FS Czar?!? Gee, all the dev's can now be known as "OKB's" (Soviet era design outfits) , governed by central commitee (Kremlin?). If a dev makes a "bad" release, will they be "executed"??:pop4:
Some people take all this FS stuff way too seriously....

[Helldiver]

I can only say that the two best airplanes I have was both freeware. The third best was paid for. The very best scenery only cost me $15 and was worth every Plum Island cent. I'm aware of all that Aerosoft has to offer too.
However, there seems to be a vast amount of high quality aircraft for free and inversely a lot of crap that people are willing to waste their money on.
I'm probably more discriminating than most about WWII aircraft and believe the men who flew and died in them, deserved to have their aircraft depicted accurately. Only rarely do payware do them justice.
I guess it's like the early days of Ham Radio when most people built their own stuff. But there was always the "Money Hams" who bought the best they could buy. But there always a home built rig that would cause them to put on the bloomers.

[n4gix]

I guess it's like the early days of Ham Radio when most people built their own stuff. But there was always the "Money Hams" who bought the best they could buy. But there always a home built rig that would cause them to put on the bloomers.

Ah, "appliance operators" is the term OM. An alternative term is "rice box operators..." :icon_lol:

Except for my KWM-2A and 30L1, everything else in my shack is homebrew.

73 de N4GIX

[tigisfat]

#1, accept lower quality models from the smaller studio's (I dont want that)
I'm okay with it. I may not buy it, but I can't knock anyone for releasing anyhting we didn't have before, even if it's in poor execution.



#2, pay a lot more (You dont want that)I think we're already here, and sadly, the market has supported it. Everyone complains about how the higher-fidelity tubeliners cost 80 dollars or more, and they try to lecture companies about "the proper way to sell products through a higher volume of sales" but the market has clearly proven that it can support and sustain 80 dollar aircraft, and hobbiests will keep on buying.


None of the studio's have a budget to advertise, so we work 100% word-of-mouth. That's simply a falsehood. Plenty of devs advertise through many sources including but not limited to internet and magazine advertising.


Thats why if we make a bad model, it dont sell.Also, plenty of bad models sell because of advertising. I haven't seen a crap release in a long time; things are definitely getting better, but it's happened before. Mediocre releases have outsold good ones. There are mediocre MSFS addons in boxes next to FSX gold.

[warchild]

There's so much that needs to be considered here.. I dont believe that a regulatory commision or some such police force would do anything but harm the community by driving away new developers that may not currently meet standards. Perhaps instead, if developers were to come out and say, "this is my target market, and this is the price range i'm aiming to sell too", then perhaps there wouldnt be so many let downs. Then again, one mans gold, is another mans garbage. As an example: The project tupolev TU-134 was apparently an incredible model. Lots of people thought it was the very best thing since oxygen. I dont know, i couldnt even get it started. So for me it was a sad pile of junk. However, i do know that the PT team put in 200% effort on it and i respect that more than anything else there is.
I think that people change. Skills change. sometimes they improve and other times, they suffer, but there is always change. One of the hardest things to discern as a consumer however is the amount of dedication, care and effort an individual developer has put into a product, irregardless if it's freeware or payware. And i believe that therein lies the crux of the situation. So many of us put our hearts and blood into this, and yet, theres others that paint a pretty picture and toss you yesterdays scraps. telling who's who and who's doing what, is the hard part, and can only be determined with time.
Some developers dont want to make the mona lisa. They're happy with just putting out a fun product. Other developers want to make the mona lisa someday, but maybe for the moment their skills arent up to it, But these people all show consistency in what they do. You Know Milton is going to drop your jaw with the work he does, you know Davids planes are going to be fun to fly, you know MillViz is gonna give you eye candythat can make you cry it's so good, and hopefully you'll come to think that i'm getting better all the time. Piglet, Lionheart, aerosoft, A2A, Real Air, Razbam, and many others. You can get anything made by any of them and because of the consistancy with which they approach what they do you know youve got a 97% chance of getting a good product.. Still others thatare new, may not be able to model a wooden toothpick with a whittlin knife today, but give em a year or two..
Maybe as individuals, we can be jaded, cynical, arrogant, and elitist, but as a community we cant afford that. it's my belief that trying to set up a set of standards and a body to oversee the application and adherence to those standards would be setting ourselves up as nothing more than a group of arrogant elitist *******s who are rigid and unbending and unwilling to give the newby a chance. I also believe that it would ultimately kill the hobby, and the community we've been so fortunate to have. It is total overkill in an arena where at the most, a bit of research, a bit of wisdom and a little homework, would go much much further towards weeding out the predetors and snake oil pitchmen, than any set of standards ever could.
Pam..