Uss midway

[Cowboy1968]

Does anyone have USS Midway or a ship from her class in the original flight deck configuration? I am working on a historic mission. The first time the FH-1 made a carrier landing on the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt, when naval aviation came kicking and screaming into the jst age.

Next question would anyone else want the mission? I know I am big on recreating history in the sim that way, but there is no combat involved.

[redrooster]

I think there might be one here by the virtual navy. At least I think that where I got the one I have from.

redrooster

[dsawan]

yes, i an interestedin mission. thx

[Dirtman]

Yo Cowboy;

The USS FDR (Midway class) is available from the Virtual Navy with the original axial flight deck.

Right here Bro: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=info&FileID=1320 (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/../index.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=info&FileID=1320)

.
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[Cowboy1968]

well I put her down. Not the best landing seen from voucher's row, but it landed on the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt, the way it did back then. Not easy sticking a jet landing that is for sure.

Now that i got the bird and the ship worked out. How do add ship names into the files to get the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt to show up in the list of carrier names?

[Cowboy1968]

Ok figured it out. It was in callsign.dat.

[dhasdell]

Looks interesting, but don't forget that the first jet landing on a carrier was made by Lt Cdr Eric "Winkle" Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown) who landed on HMS Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_%28R68%29) in the specially modified de Havilland Vampire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire) LZ551/G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials) on 3 December 1945. That, perhaps, was "when naval aviation came kicking and screaming into the jet age."
:wavey:

[Cowboy1968]

Looks interesting, but don't forget that the first jet landing on a carrier was made by Lt Cdr Eric "Winkle" Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown) who landed on HMS Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_%28R68%29) in the specially modified de Havilland Vampire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire) LZ551/G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials) on 3 December 1945. That, perhaps, was "when naval aviation came kicking and screaming into the jet age."
:wavey:

That was an experiment with the Vampire. It was a highly modified land based aircraft put together just for that test. Yes it opened the door.

The landings and take offs from the carrier USS Franklin D. Roosevelt on July 21, 1946 were made as part of the process to develop the US navy jet program. Up to this time the USN used a handful of Lockheed P-80s actually borrowed from the Army Air Force. But, the test of July 21, 1946 lead to the first landing of a jet aircraft, designed from the start for as a carrier plane, on a carrier under operational conditions. These operations were made to declare the aircraft was fit for carriers.

So yes the Royal Navy opened the door for carrier jet operations, but the USN brought naval aviation in that door kicking and screaming.

[Cowboy1968]

And if i had a Vampire i could put a Virtual tail hook onto I would develop that mission too

[Collin]

And if i had a Vampire i could put a Virtual tail hook onto I would develop that mission too


You don't need a tailhook, it didn't have one, nor undercarriage. It landing on a rubber deck and screeched to a halt scattering men and ships cats who came out of their little hidyholes to watch.:icon_lol:

Gorra a picture of it somewhere.

regards Collin:ernae:

[The_Editor]

Here is a short video of one of the Vampire landings on Ocean.

http://www.llanelliscar.co.uk/sea_vampire.mpeg

[dhasdell]

I think the rubber deck experiments were separate. The video from The Editor clearly shows LZ551/G landing with wheels and hook.

Later, after looking out Brown's book: The first jet deck landing and takeoff were on HMS Ocean in December 1945, and the aircraft had normal undercarriage plus a hook. Take off was without a catapult.

The flexible deck experiments were later, initially at Farnborough, commencing on December 29 1947, resuming in March 1948 with a Sea Vampire 21, and then on HMS Warrior in November of that year using the original Vampire prototype. These experiments, too, used a hook.

[Cowboy1968]

Looks interesting, but don't forget that the first jet landing on a carrier was made by Lt Cdr Eric "Winkle" Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown) who landed on HMS Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_%28R68%29) in the specially modified de Havilland Vampire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire) LZ551/G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials) on 3 December 1945. That, perhaps, was "when naval aviation came kicking and screaming into the jet age."
:wavey:

You got me to thinking, Why not give the RN its shot to. So I started a project.

I can't remember where i found this Vampire at but I am not converting it to be used on a carrier. Forgive the fact she landed on a US carrier, but i just started the project an hour ago. I will eventually get her in a mission landing on a ship similar to HMS Ocean.

I don't have the modeling ability to add the hook, but i put a virtual one into the aircraft.cfg file

I had to convert her flight dynamics file, convert the model in the converter and then run DXTbmp on the textures.

BUT THIS VAMPIRE IS FOR YOU

[The_Editor]

You can get Collin's HMS Ocean here:http://www.simviation.com/lair/cfs2shipyard.htm

[dhasdell]

Looks great - thank you. :wavey:

[Cowboy1968]

I have to admit doing this project has been an education, in many ways.

1st. The USN approach of using a plane designed for the task was probably better. The larger wings of the FH-1 make her more stable on the approach to the deck. The Phantasm had less drift off center.

2nd. That the advances in the angled deck became absolutely necessary in the jet age. The Approach speeds are so much faster and it is hard to slow those ealry beasts down to landing speed. Compared to a prop planed you are going to have a lot more baulters.

3rd. This is the most important thing small decked carriers and jets are a dangerous combination. I think it is really almost to unsafe to be practice, but the RN pulled it off once they got the angled deck and steam catapult. Let me amend that statement. Jets on World War II type small flat tops.....are dangerous to the point of unsafe to be a usuable practice.

4th. you have to remember Morphy's law. anything that can go wrong will go wrong. and that doubles when you are landing a jet on a small flat top like HMS Ocean. I guess that is a lesson learned when the USN brought the Phantom into the fleet. They used the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt

I have set up these landings in a project. Working name is A Dawn of a New Age. I am telling you the Brits sure had guts putting the Vampire down on the small deck of HMS Ocean. I think if the war would have continued the Brits would have finished HMS Malta. the design was roughly between an Essex and a Midway in size. (a good jet platform).

As you can tell from the pic the Vampire barely had room to land and no room for drift. But, like all the early jets she does drift at lower speeds like those involved in landing on a carrier.

Thank the gods for large deck carriers......lol

[dhasdell]

You're really getting into this, aren't you?

If you can find a copy, take a look at "Winkle" Brown's book, "Wings on my Sleeve". He reckoned the big problems with the early jets were:

(i) slow pick up time in an emergency - with a prop there's instant extra lift because of the slipstream over the wings, whereas a jet relies purely on speed

(ii) high fuel consumption

His view is that both the RN and USN came more or less to the conclusion that jets weren't yet combat ready, hence the reliance by the RN on the Sea Fury, and the de-mothballing for Korea of the Corsair and Skyraider by the USN.

[Cowboy1968]

Naval aviation has always been a passion of mine. And, yes I get into it. It is a brave man that can land on airplane on land, but it is the fool and the brave man that can do it on a carrier. and God looks after the foolish. It takes skill to learn to land on a carrier. I have a reverence for naval pilots that goes beyond hero worship. My granddad flew these early carrier planes in World War II and Korea. I developed my passion for it through him. When he passed he left me his Gold wings......i have them framed in a picture between a F4U-4 Corsair and a F9F-2 Panther below his 8 x 10 portrait on my wall at work. So, yes I do tend to get into the history of Naval aviation. In some way this sim of ours gives me a "very faint" idea of what he did on those carriers he flew off of.

[Collin]

Yep y'all are quite correct, I checked the Colossus class Bible and Ocean had the deck landing which I have repeated below, and Warrior had the flexi deck which will be the subject of a new thread in the Naval Forum.
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=198952#post198952


At 09.00 on Monday 3 December, after embarking a number of VIP's, Ocean weighed anchor and steamed into the Channel on what was an overcast day, into a moderate swell and 17 knot south-westerly winds. At 10.55 the ship went to flying stations and an hour later at RNAS Ford, Lt-Cdr E M Brown RN took off in a prototype Vampire jet fighter, bound for Ocean where he was to make the first pure jet carrier landing. Captain Brown describes his experience:

"In overcast conditions I found Ocean ploughing along rhythmically, and screeched over her with a low pass and roll to announce my arrival. Unknown to me at that precise moment the ships loudspeakers were announcing that the Vampire had been ordered to return to Ford because the boffins felt the flight deck was pitching excessively. However, Caspar John had been Captain of the Pretoria Castle, the trials carrier, when I was in Service Trials Unit, so he knew me well and he immediately decided to accept me for landing. The combined ships speed and wind speed over the deck was given to me by radio as 38 knots with the flight deck pitching 12 feet at the stern and rolling five degrees."

Brown's landing circuit was begun at 1000ft, at 200mph, with the Vampire's engine well throttled back. His final turn-in was a fairly wide sweep made in a nose down attitude at 115mph, losing 100ft in height so that his straight approach was begun at 300ft. Once again he takes up the story:

"Speed was reduced gradually to 100mph, until a position about 150ft aft of the round down and 30ft above the flight deck was assumed. From this position the throttle was cut and no further movement on the elevators made until the round down was crossed at 95mph, then the stick was eased back fairly sharply until the aircraft stalled completely as I felt by the kick on the port aileron as the port wing dropped. Although I aimed for the No 4 arrestor wire, the flight deck was on the upswing of its pitch as I crossed the round down and in consequence the hook picked up No1 wire and I came to a halt with astonishingly mild deceleration."

Lt-Cdr Brown had successfully accomplished the first deck landing of a jet aircraft, and the ships log recorded the event thus:

"11.27 - De H Vampire landed on".

The Vampire trials continued each day, with Brown making a number of landings and take-offs, which he decribes as follows:

"The aircraft was held on the brakes until the full 10,200rpm were reached on run-up, and the released and the stick held central until 60mph registered on the ASI when the stick was eased back until the tail booms were estimated to be one foot off the deck and I passed the island superstructure at bridge level."

During the afternoon of Thursday 6 December, with the trials having been completed, Lt-Cdr Brown took off from Ocean and flew ashore.Hope the above helps your mission Cowboy.

regards Collin:ernae:

[Cowboy1968]

I added a new jet to my carrier qualified list......lol

I found a Banshee over at simviation.......model is old........air file doesn't seem right...........but hey its a Banshee