The Ongoing Mystery Aircraft Thread Part Deux.

[Ferry_vO]

So who posted the last one before the crash..?


Edit:

If you are new to the mystery game here is a quick set of guidelines.

-You must correctly guess before posting a new one. (Usually you wait for the previous poster to verify the answer). If you are confident on your answer, you can post a new picture without waiting but risk hearing it from the forum regulars if wrong! :173go1:

-You are allowed to remove nationality and registration numbers (to prevent easy googling of answers). You cannot add bogus markings to throw off the hunt.

-No gliders unless very unusual or of historical significance.

-Please refrain from using Google image search. This is a cheap way of identifying photos and frowned upon.


Have fun! This is not a serious match although we do take pride in being able to spot an obscure aircraft.


I think that is it. Also, don't forget to give the person who guessed your plane a beer on Henry's tab. :icon29:

Good luck spotters-
Moses

PS: Our first thread was 6 months along and had over 15,000 views with nearly 1200 posts!

[lefty]

Well, our record thread just went down the plumbing !

We'll just have to start all over again - I don't think there were any answers to my last post, which was an ID for these triplets.

[Moses03]

Hoping we can recover the lost threads. If so, I will merge this one back into the original one.

I was just getting ready to troll through our nice big thread and extract every plane into a master list by Country/Manufacturer/Model/Year etc for future reference. :banghead:

[lefty]

Now I was just waiting for some brave and selfless soul to think of that - what a splendid idea !

Buy it on Amazon - 'Uncle Moses' Big Book of Balkan Bogeys.' Oh yes. :costumes:

[lefty]

Is there anyone else out there ?? I feel lonely ! :frown:

[Hurricane]

I'm here, just about sobered up from last night, but still no idea what they are!:ernae:

[lefty]

I'm here, just about sobered up from last night

And there was me, thinking you were a good clean-living boy. Mind you, it never did me any harm ! :d

[lefty]

Just checked my last post. Where on earth did that edit notice come from ??????

[Moses03]

The forums are still a bit buggy from the crash.

Sorry, I have not been in a mystery plane mood since we lost the thread. Really bummed out over it.

[lefty]

These three floaters are oddly obscure. This is not helped by the fact that this picture is wrongly captioned in Jane's, and it took me a while to sort out the correct designation.

I can reveal that the roundels displayed are, from the outside, red, white and blue. This will probably not help you a lot, as there is nothing remotely French about them at all.

Come on, you Sherlock Holmeses !

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Well, it's all very distressing about the collapse of our wonderful thread (oh, AND the whole planet's economy), but I have also found a little time to be distressed by thinking about what those three seaplanes might be.

Not sure at all, due to differences of photos (and engines!), but might hazard some kind of Northrop - they look a bit like the N-3PB, originally built for Norway, though they & their pilots ended up with the British RAF.

Probably barking up the wrong street, but at least it's a guess! :d

[lefty]

It was the only guess, Ralf, and a fair one, at least the right country -I think we'll move on.

These are Seversky SEV-3M-WW's destined for the Colombian Air Force.
Janes lists them as SEV-2PA's, but that was a later model - Seversky's numbering system idiosyncratic to the last.

Right, what is this big-spanned effort ?

[Sopwith Chameleon]

...............ant-25.........?

[lefty]

Welcome, sir ! (Good to see another Junior Member in his prime !)

You got it dead right with the Tupolev ANT-25.

Over to you for a new mystery. (If not in Kansas any more, where are you ?)

[Sopwith Chameleon]

.............that would be telling - ain't it enough I ain't in Kansas? - where's my beer? (or is it true about Scotsmen?)


anyhoo - try this little sporty number

[lefty]

. where's my beer?

Well it's far too early in the morning for a beer - at least it is here - but maybe not where you are - wherever that is !

Anyway here's a Scottish pint :icon29: - and it's OK, I won't breathe a word of your whereabouts to the IRS.

Over to your mystery - looks suspiciously like a light aircraft to me but we'll have a go...............

[lefty]

Yup, it's a Miles M13 Hobby.

[Sopwith Chameleon]

..........thanks for the Beer!


& here's your :icon29: of Pedigree for the Miles


OK - I'm in England - on the edge of the Peak District.............


Over to you..................

[lefty]

Thanks. It's nearly lunchtime so a Marston's will do nicely.

Here's an interesting one.

[Hurricane]

Is it a more common type which has been modified?

The fuselage has a look of the 504N about it.

And whats the marks on top of the wing, is it just stitching or are they bits of wool to show airflow?

[lefty]

You're right about the airflow tufts, James, and the thingy on the tail houses a camera.

But it is a specific type and not modified from anything else.

[Moses03]

I'm back in action with Lefty's Parnall Parasol.

[lefty]

On the ball, Moses. :icon29:

[Moses03]

Thanks for the lunch hour brewski.


I'm afraid I have to get a little revenge on the Seversky.

Have at it-

[Moses03]

This one is a bit obscure, and not from Eastern Europe.

[Hurricane]

I was thinking of a western european country which seems to specilise in ugly aircraft!

[lefty]

I have a feeling that is the trap Moses is corralling us into.................

[Moses03]

Not a trap, just trying to save some research time. Actually it's not European at all...

[Ralf Roggeveen]

The guy in the straw hat does look rather like Marcel Proust... He seems to be saying "But I thought you said we could get a skinny latte and pain au chocolat if we landed 'ere, Gaston! Sacre bleu, it is ze midi of nowhere. Tiens, tiens, tiens!"

Could the aircraft be South American? Perhaps a bit late for old Santos Dumont, but maybe still from Brazil or Argentina?

[lefty]

I think it is Mexican. Could be the 6-E-136 Quetzalcoatl-Liberty ?

[Moses03]

Time to move along. You were close Lefty. It is a TNCA Series H from Mexico.

Next one-

[lefty]

I think you may find, Kevin, that your 'Series H' and my 6-E-136, are one and the same thing. Janes and several websites have conflicting information about the TNCA !

We need some research here. Who is closest to Mexico ? Never been there, maybe we could go on a joint Mexican Historical Aviation Survey ? Lots of tequila !

Oh, by the way, your new one is a Columbia XJL-1.

(or, as it is sometimes known, a Snickendorfer Splashbaby Mk IV.)

[Moses03]

Interesting. I didn't come across "6-E-136 Quetzalcoatl-Liberty" at any point.

[Moses03]

:icon29:for Lefty on the ungainly floater!

As far as the Mexican mystery, I think the 6-E was a slightly different model going by scant info I have found so far but will credit you with another beer for suppling us with your detective work. :icon29:

Over to you-

[lefty]

I still want a trip to Acapulco..................

[lefty]

Where I can maybe use one of these ! (my favourite theme - floater/pushers)

[Ferry_vO]

Seems to fit right in with the Grumman Duck/Colonial Skimmer/Lake Renegade family, except the engine is in a different position..

No more time to search though as I'm leaving on a short holiday to Turkey tomorrow! :d

[lefty]

Have a great break, Ferry ! (Never been to Turkey yet).

Grumman Duck ????? Er, wasn't that a biplane with a tractor engine ??

[& Co.]

Let's try a Grumman G-65 Tadpole ?

[lefty]

A glass of something appropriate for the weather for &Co - a nice old Calvados, perhaps ?
Me, I've actually been roasting chestnuts by the fire this afternoon - winter is here !
Over to you sir. Tadpole it was indeed.

[& Co.]

Aww - thanks Lefty, a nice old Calvados would do nicely, providing it comes along with a nice cup of black hot coffee.
Winter it is not yet in tropical Normandy, but a windy cloudy cold autumn for sure.

Here's anuvver pusher, though not a floating wun:

[lefty]

Annoying one, this, I know I've seen it but...........

Difficult to put an age on it, even, but when our resident pusher ace gets back from whichever TexMex saloon he's been languishing in, maybe all will be revealed !

[Moses03]

I'm still trying to figure out why the Tadpole in Lefty's pic had Bellanca-like rudderettes and all the other pictures I found didn't.

No luck on the flying wing.

[lefty]

The Bellanca Rudderettes. Sounds like a Busby Berkeley dance troupe.
Can't shed any light on them, however - the Francillon Grumman book doesn't mention them.

&Co has scored a point here, methinks. Surrender time !

[& Co.]

No surrending between partners of the Vieille Alliance, Lefty, but I understand that mystery leaves you clueless ;)

Any other taker ?

[lefty]

Nothing personal, &Co, but the Vieille Alliance was a load of tosh. The French were cozying up to the Scots in the thirteenth century, in order to drive a wedge between us and the English, thereby rendering Britain easier to invade ! Devious as ever !

[& Co.]

Tosh ? I suspect the meaning but can't find the word in my Oxford...
Anyway, and as usual with alliances, it was just a question of mutual interest(s). The Scots did find some utility in the Auld Alliance at the time, don't you think ?
But doan worry any longer, you do NOT have the double scot-french nationality anymore (but you and your likes are nonetheless warmly welcome down 'ere) :D

[lefty]

We are getting perilously off-topic here, but Chamber's Dictionary defines 'tosh' as 'bosh, twaddle, nonsense.' I think you get the drift.

Anyway, I think Moses has pulled down the Lone Star flag over the Alamo, and has raised, as I have, a white one. Don't know who else is out there these days, but they have had most of the weekend, so maybe you had better put us out of our misery.

[Hurricane]

White flag here too.

[& Co.]

Back to non-perilous topic then, the mystery flying wing is a 1933 Nieuport Delage NiD 940. It did take off but didn't fly long.
Ssssllllrrrppp (sound of someone sipping a 100-year old Cognac) :icon_lol:

Quite a classy one, for a change:

[Moses03]

Methinks & Co has unearthed the stylish Hirsch H-100.

[& Co.]

Yes indeed!

I expected the Nieuport to be an easy one and the Hirsh to be a stinker - all wrong.

:icon29: for Moses03 !

[Moses03]

Thanks for the golden ale. I know what you mean about what seems hard and what seems easy to guess. Sometimes I pick one out thinking I got you all for sure and it lasts about 30 min. :icon_lol:

Let me see what I can scare up for the next one. (I am at work on the office computer...shhhhh. Don't tell anyone). ;)

[Moses03]

Let's heavy it up a little-

[lefty]

The man is definitely a Cold War Eastern Bloc spy.

This is a Shcherbakov Shch-2 of the Yugoslavian Air Force.

And Piglet, despite what you may read below, had nothing to do with this post whatever. (Annoying little gremlin, that.)

[Moses03]

Right on. :icon29:

Over to you-

[lefty]

Thanks Kevin - needed that pint - have had a thirsty day trying to get a big piece of furniture into a small room via some tight corridors and stairs - getting too old for this sort of thing ! But it's there !

Here's one which shouldn't last too long.............

[Moses03]

No one has spoken up yet. Must be French...

[lefty]

Not French. &Co is pretty hot on those. Not American either.

[Moses03]

Ah, Italian then. :icon_lol:

[lefty]

This could take a while, if we're going to eliminate the countries of the world one by one. It is not Italian.

It is European. Here it is again.

[lefty]

OK, time to draw a veil over the Darmstadt D.29

Something different, and much sexier.

[srgalahad]

OK.. I'm back ( albeit infrequently with any knowledge).
Moses, lefty, I'll try to help out after I land in Mexico in 49 days -Mazatlan, not 'Pulco tho' - IF I can find the library and IF my Spanish is up to it and IF they have any aviation or historical texts AND IF I don't find the Pacifico brewery first! Regardless, I'll think of you in the cold :wavey:

Rob

[Hurricane]

and much sexier.

So it won't be French then? :costumes:

[& Co.]

I am not sure of the designation: it is a Nieuport Delage, referred to as "sesquiplan de chasse" derived from the sesquiplan racer. First flown in 1921.

There has been another NiD sesquiplan, the C12. It is not the current mystery.
Seems the people at Nieuport were having troubles finding names ;)

Oh, before I forget it: interesting plane, that Darmstadt. I knew I had seen it somewhere, but couldn't remember where (I swear it's true) :icon_lol:

[lefty]

Well, &Co gets a watered-down glass of marc here for a pretty half-baked answer.

It is French, James, (there's always a good-looking exception, like Juliette Binoche).

And it is a Nieuport (not Nieuport-Delage) It is a Nieuport 31, which according to my sources flew in 1918/19.

[& Co.]

Far from me the intention to discuss your comment, Lefty, but I don't know which is which anymore.

Here is a Nieuport given as Nieuport 31 :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Nieuport_31.jpg
Some sources also give it as Nieuport Delage NiD 42S

Your mystery is here, under another angle. The source says it is derived from Georges Kirsch's Nieuport Delage Sesquiplan which won the 1921 Deutsch Cup. So whose sources are (the most) reliable - if any ?

[& Co.]

Meanwhile, and since source mysteries are off topic, let's proceed with on topic ones ;) :

[lefty]

Au contraire, mon ami, we have some very lively debates and differences of opinion here, which is partly what this forum is all about ! Pooling our resources is very useful indeed, and we find lots of anomalies.
I know the site you have used - my info came from Davilla & Soltan's very substantial tome 'French Aircraft of the First World War.' (There is even a 3-view)
Aviafrance has no pic, but mentions the 31 as having the Rhone engine, whereas the later Sesquiplans had inline jobs, and the pics are similar to your one.
However, maybe some of our other regulars can give us some input on this one.

[lefty]

In the meantime, your mystery is a Bordelaise (S.A.B.) 80.

[& Co.]

57 minutes ! :icon_eek:

A SAB DB80 it is indeed. :icon29: to Lefty (where on earth does that Frosty come from ?).

[& Co.]

Thanks indeed for your answer re. the Nieuport.
I didn't check Aviafrance for this one (the "31" pic I provided is given as such by Wikipedia - which I moderately trust), but I assume, until further notice and unless opposite evidence, that Davilla & Soltan are more reliable than Gérard Hartmann (that's where the "sesquiplan de chasse" comes from, and the one who gives the "31" as a NiD 42S... Aw bloimey :d)

[lefty]

I wonder if the Crowwood Nieuport book mentions this one ?
Even Jane's gets it wrong sometimes, see my post about the Severskys.

Anyway, here's something a bit more modern, another very neat design which didn't make it.

[Moses03]

Burns Ba-42?

[Hurricane]

Au contraire, mon ami, we have some very lively debates and differences of opinion here, which is partly what this forum is all about ! Pooling our resources is very useful indeed, and we find lots of anomalies.

I find its great for building up some resources, I'm slowly building up a collection of books which covers the more obscure stuff (I've got all the mainstream stuff fairly well covered now) but without this forum I'd never have heard of most of these and would never have any reference material on them.

This latest one looks like a Piper Navajo's offspring!

[lefty]

Moses has pounced on the Burns -thought he might get that one. :guinness:

[Moses03]

Thanks Lefty. I liked that design myself.


This next one had a very interesting history...

[lefty]

You're a generous man, Kevin. Every time the phrase 'interesting history' is used for an aircraft of this vintage, it shouts 'Spanish Civil War' to me ! That conflict ended up as a sort of sump for the most bizarre collection of aircraft from all over the world.

This one was no exception. the Breese-Dallas X Racer.

Funnily enough, my pic shows different windows, so it must have been tinkered with at some stage.

[Moses03]

That was quick! :icon29:

From Aerofiles:

Dallas X 1933 = 6pClwM rg; 450hp P&W Wasp SC-1. W A Mankey. POP: 1 [X12899] c/n 1, born as Michigan Model 1 (qv) at the same address as Breese & Dallas. Vance Breese purchased it from Lambert Aircraft 4/5/35 and flew it to Los Angeles, repowered it, and NR-licensed it for "exhibition and motion picture camera work." Assumably this is when its name changed to Breese & Dallas X. Soon after it was modified with an 800hp P&W Twin Wasp SR-B and new fuel tanks (185- and 105-gallons in the fuselage, 40- and 15-gallons in each wing), then licensed 4/24/36 "for long-distance cross-country flights" and sold to Jackie Cochran (http://www.aerofiles.com/bio_c.html#cochran) 10/3/36 for the 1937 Bendix Race. However, Paul Mantz (http://www.aerofiles.com/bio_m.html#mantz) (United Air Services, Burbank CA) acquired it on 1/6/37 and flew it to Mexico 1/10/37 to sell to Col Roberto Fierro of the Mexican AAF (price: $25,000). Scheduled for shipment to Spain for use in their Civil War, it crashed in early 1937 flying from Mexico City to Vera Cruz (p: Cloyd Clevenger). Its CAA license expired 4/12/37.


Knew I should have pulled something from the Tibet folder.

Over to Lefty-

[lefty]

OK, thanks for the beer, shouldn't have one, am off curling tonight.

This won't last more than a few minutes.........

[Moses03]

Er Lefty, & Co posted this one in the first thread- Moynet M 360 Jupiter. You might have been on holiday at the time.

Got another?

[Moses03]

While we wait for Lefty's next horror, here is one I found that I have not had time to research. All I know is that is was built in the USA by a Rumanian designer.

Any ideas?

[lefty]

Well your Rumanian designer had obviously been abusing substances, and as for the mechanics - extras from the Texas Chain Saw Massacre by the looks of it.

Please don't tell me this thing ever flew !

(Later) Well, here is the whole story of the Fernic T-9

http://www.aviatori.ro/v2/dict_pers.php?sel=F

My Romanian ain't what it was..............................................

[Moses03]

Excellent Mike. I ran it through a translator-

"FT-9, 1929

The device was built by the company Fern. The plane made the first flight on 9 September 1929 on Rosevelt Field, Long Island, New York. Fern T-9 and runs off a flight 22 minutes after landing perfectly spulberând doubts of 100 pilots and specialists at the airfield. At the club was George Fern attended as a mechanical engineer Head of Romanian factory Paul Dorian, his friend. Plane to transport passengers and cargo. 8 passenger capacity in outstanding comfort.

Engines: two model Wright Whirlwind J-5 radial 220CP cooled air.

Size: Main Wing Span 18,000 m; front wing span 6700 m, 13,100 m in length, height 4120 m.

WEIGHT: empty weight 2268 kg weight 4536 kg.

Performance: maximum speed 196 km / h, cruising speed 161 km / h, landing speed 68 km / h."


I bookmarked that site. Might come in handy sometime... :kilroy:


Edit: More info found here: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ro&u=http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D83760&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DFernic%2BT-9%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG


"The first test flight of the aircraft "Fern T-9" was held in the afternoon of 10 September 1929, the Roosevelt Field, Long Island, New York.


George Fern himself, assisted by engineer-in-chief of the aerodrome, Paul Dorian, as a mechanic, took off running a flight of 22 minutes, then landed in a perfect outfit.


The daily "New York Times remarked, on this flight, that:" ... over 100 specialists and aviator skeptics have come to look, convinced that strange monoplan tandem will not even take off. They were shown but very Fern enthusiastic when a porint, evoluand in a perfect flight at a height of 500 meters for almost half an hour.. "


And the American newspaper "World", in turn, pointed out: "Fern was so convinced of the safety device, or they refused his left usually not missing the first flight.."

Fern has fixed the date of the flight itself to Bucharest by mid-September 1930.


To check up capacities plane "Fern T-9", reserving however the expected resource engine intercontinental raid, Fern built a still camera easier for acrobatics and tourism, but after making the same rigorous new principles constructive.

That is born monoplan another plane with one engine "Rover" 75 HP customary today in all encyclopaedias and dictionaries aviation, the original "Cruisaire" (see photo).


The number as of June 1930, the American specialist "Aero Digest" show, with the wealth of details, new product Uzinelor "Fern" in Arlington, stressing that the "center of gravity is placed between plans and plan ahead to take effect contact with air before the plan mainly to produce a moment which excludes the possibility of employment (in tail spin, nn) of the device.. "

Sadly, he died a year later in a crash:

From Time magazine in September. 8, 1930



"Georg B. Fernic, Rumanian designer, of Staten Island, NY, was demonstrating his tandem-wing, "spin-proof, stall-proof" plane. For no apparent reason the plane nosed straight down from 50 ft. in landing, bashed the top of another plane on the ground, killed Inventor Fernic."

[lefty]

Talking of the Spanish affair, this curiosity featured in it too.

[Moses03]

Maillet 20, Maillet 20 (201) or Maillet-Taupin-Lignel 20 depending on your source.

[lefty]

Well, actually, my source says it wasn't any of those, but the Maillet 21 F-AODA !
The same book (Howson's Aircraft of the SCW) says its probable fate was landing on a beach near Barcelona and being washed away by the tide !

:icon29: (not quite up to the brim) for Moses.

[Moses03]

...its probable fate was landing on a beach near Barcelona and being washed away by the tide !



:isadizzy:


Lets turn back the clock a bit on this next one. Note the tuba in the background. :cool:

[lefty]

Now that 'tuba', as every good All-American boy should know, is a Sousaphone.

They don't have many of those outside the U.S.A...............??????

[Sopwith Chameleon]

................that's a Sousaphone? - I thought it was the in-flight (ahem) "rest facillity"..............

[lefty]

Sikorsky S-29A

[Moses03]

Sorry, my mistake. Sousaphone/portable relief tube.

Yes, it's the Sikorsky. :icon29: to Lefty. This one had an interesting history as well. It's final flight was filmed as part of Howard Hughes' cinema classic "Hell's Angels".

Over to Scotland-

[lefty]

Thank you again. We do get American marching bands, complete with sousaphones, at our Edinburgh Tattoo. At least they drown out the bagpipes.

This ugly bug has been nowhere near France.

[lefty]

Now that Moses has retired to bed, I can reveal that this one is American, and has the most unusual name of any Aircraft manufacturer I have seen.

[Hurricane]

Would that be the Transcendental 2?

[lefty]

You got it, James ! (I forgot there was a rotary-wing ace here).

Over to the Yorkshire archives. Pint of Timothy Taylor's Landlord for thee, lad. :icon29:

[Hurricane]

I'm at uni at the moment so the archives are a bit limited, but I'm sure I can dig up something!

[Hurricane]

Not sure how difficult this one will be but haven't got many books to choose from down here.

[MM]

Just looking at the photograph of the Fernic T-9 and its ground crew.

Was the aircraft constructed by midgets? Or did they have a special Transylvanian giant attached to the team? :d

[Moses03]

Westland Walrus. (Helped in remembering you purchased a Westland volume some time ago) :)

[Moses03]

Confident that the Walrus is correct so I will go ahead and post the next one. Don't want to hold things up since I will be away until late in the day tomorrow.

[lefty]

Well, unless my sources are wrong (!) I am 100% certain this is a Caproni Ca.97
This was another unusual aircraft, as the happy buyer could have the option of one, two or three engines ! This one had three Lorraine-Dietrich 130hp jobs.

So on, like Monty Python, to something completely different.....

[Hurricane]

Confident that the Walrus is correct so I will go ahead and post the next one. Don't want to hold things up since I will be away until late in the day tomorrow.

You are correct, and yes it is out of the westland book, all my other ones which might contain any oddities are back home!

[Ralf Roggeveen]

That nice Russian fighter might be a Polikarpov ITP (but I'm not sure!) :kilroy:

[lefty]

That nice Russian fighter might be a Polikarpov ITP

It's nice, it's Russian, but it ain't a Polikarpov !

[Moses03]

Maybe the 2nd prototype of the Yak-3?

Right-o on the Caproni. :guinness:

[lefty]

Maybe the 2nd prototype of the Yak-3?



Yup. Otherwise known as the I-30-2. Or half-a-dozen other designations - can never get my head round Russian logic !

:icon29: in your nearest cantina.

[Moses03]

Thanks.

How about this one? Stylish and deadly (or so it would seem).

[lefty]

Haven't had much time to look at this one (been somewhere interesting today - more later) but the first obvious impression, i.e. American, I am beginning to doubt. OK, it's flash paintwork, spats etc, but the fin/rudder just don't look American, and sesquiplanes were never popular there.

And those guns? Tacked on for a movie or something ? They just don't look right !

[Hurricane]

My first guess would have been American too, now I'm thinking maybe from South America?


BTW. After complaining about my lack of resources down here while looking for books for my dissertation in the library today I happened upon Janes All The Worlds Aircraft, not just the current one, but about 30+ editions back to about 1927 :d:d:d

[lefty]

Well, I have 36 Jane's going back to 1926, and this b****r ain't in any of them !

[Moses03]

It's not from over here...

[lefty]

Have been a bit preoccupied..................

[Moses03]

Assuming that is the 163 on display at East Fortune. No such luck seeing one over on this side of the pond that I know of. Very cool Mike!


As far as the mystery, I can only think of one other major hint (other than it's not from Eastern Europe) and that will give it away for sure. The gun placement is real.

[Hurricane]

Assuming that is the 163 on display at East Fortune. No such luck seeing one over on this side of the pond that I know of. Very cool Mike!

I thought Duxford had swapped or sold a 163 with a collection over there?
Can't remember who though.

[lefty]

Something for everybody up here, James !

[lefty]

And according to this, there are at least three over there, Kevin !

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/me163.htm

[hewman100]

Is it another licence-built machine based on a British design Moses? There's look of the Vickers Vincent/Vildebeest about her.
The twin VGO machine guns may seem to indicate this too????:isadizzy:

[Hurricane]

Something for everybody up here, James !

I'm not actually involved with the Skeeter thing now as he's no longer based at the museum.

Its an odd thing but it is a nice little machine.

[Moses03]

Looks like Duxford sent theirs to Seattle. Didn't know that. The mystery is another Spanish Civil War refugee. The French SEMA 12 or SAB-SEMA 12 depending on your source.


This next one is easier?

[lefty]

Blast ! I had chapter & verse on that SEMA, too, just looked in all the wrong places !

This big baby is a Farman F-180 Oiseau Bleu.

[Moses03]

There goes the Farman in record time. :icon29: Lefty

[lefty]

How about this chunky chappie ?

[Hurricane]

Looks like an American racing type machine, but maybe thats too obvious?

[Moses03]

My guess it has to be either French or Italian. How did the pilot see anything!

[lefty]

Moses is on the right lines - personally I think it looks entirely American, but it ain't. As far as vision is concerned, well, it can't have been much better in a Gee Bee !

[Hurricane]

Think I'm going to raise the white flag on this one, can't find on my usual sites.

[Moses03]

Flag is up here too. This one seems to have fallen between the cracks.

[srgalahad]

Looks like Duxford sent theirs to Seattle. Didn't know that. The mystery is another Spanish Civil War refugee. The French SEMA 12 or SAB-SEMA 12 depending on your source.


This next one is easier?

The SEMA-12 was easy.. if I'd just scrolled a bit further down the page before I quit looking and made supper :banghead::banghead::isadizzy::banghead:

Rob

[lefty]

Right, seems like this one has run its course.

It is a Lorraine-Hanriot LH 41 from 1930.

I am away for a couple of days, so will leave a nice easy one - if you get it, please carry on !

Back to my favourite theme - floater/pushers.

[Moses03]

This one is just too generic to get a fix on. It's looks European and thats all I got. Maybe someone else is having more luck.

[Hurricane]

Same here, theres nothing really obvious to suggest where its from.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

:italy: The Land of Pasta...

[lefty]

More like Escargots............

[Hurricane]

Throwing in a not particularly ugly French aircraft for the second time in under a fortnight was clearly a cunning plan to throw us off track!

(and it worked :banghead:)

[lefty]

Sorry, boys, I really thought someone would grab this cute Gallic lady.

She is an F.B.A. (or, as Jane's would have it, Schreck) F.B.A. 310, from 1930.

The pints are lining up on the bar for me, so let's go for the jugular.

This record-breaker is a relative of one of my previous mysteries.

I have left some of the registration on !

[Moses03]

Dang, and had I trolled through some F.B.A. stuff!

[lefty]

Well we seem to be able to post OK. Really tiresome, these hackers. Moses, can you not organize a wee trip to Kansas with some heavy pals and sort them out ?

[Moses03]

I think Canelo & Ickie are in charge of the Pugilist Dept. Have not had as much time to research this one. Looks French? I think you got us again Lefty.

[& Co.]

I'd say swiss, but I don't have much time on my hands...

[lefty]

OK fellas, this was a bit naughty of me - said it was related to a previous post, and indeed it is another Darmstadt - the D-18, which set altitude and other records in 1930.

So what next ? Here's an old aviation quiz faithful....

[Moses03]

Well it looks like some kind of Grumman at first glance. Must be European then...

[lefty]

Yes, it is more Grumman than a Grumman - but with a difference - and it is European. This is the slightly altered version.

[srgalahad]

If I were home I'd be able to find the lower pic since I have it, but....

while searching I found this -- for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKJQtnUulDo


Rob

[lefty]

Great stuff, Rob - there's some fascinating material on YouTube - heaven knows where they get it all - this one's a killer too...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz1MSHglGP4

Maddening new bug after the crash means you can't go directly to the last post in a thread - if this one runs as long as its predecessor, that's going to be a royal PITA !

[Moses03]

Rob- Are you home yet? We need some assistance on this blasted doppleganger!

[lefty]

We need some assistance on this blasted doppleganger!

No, it's not German either. :icon_lol:

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Is this something very obscure like the Hoenningstad Finnmark from :norway: ?

[lefty]

:icon29: on the button, Ralf ! (Although now I've found out how to do accents, I'd prefer to call it a Hønningstad.)


And I was wrong about the versions - photo 2 shows the original, amphibian with the sponsons. They were later removed, wing floats added and the sole example ended up as a flying boat.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Gosh! So it's my turn, thought that was a bit of a long shot.

Recently I've been fiddling about with '50s and 1960s British airliners (BOAC & BEA) in fs9, things like Viscounts & Herons. Trying to learn how to fly this new-fangled thing called a JET, having some fun (and frustration) with Mr De Havilland's Comet 1 airliners. Only the best people travel in these, separate Ladies and Gentlemens' lavatories, don't you know? Only trouble is they keep blowing up mysteriously...jolly bad show.

For the purposes of our mysteries, however, I will stick to the flying boat theme. Don't think it got much beyond the prototype stage (is that allowed here?), but the one below - yes, just the one on the right - is interesting. Any ideas?

[lefty]

Hmmm, looks like an Ekranoplan that's got a little too high for comfort !

[Ferry_vO]

It is Mike: Rhein-Flugzeugbau X-113.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

You got it Ferry! :ernae: Welcome back from Turkey (no flag available amongst the Smilies :frown:).

[Ferry_vO]

Time for something good looking for a change:

[& Co.]

Could it be the 1933 Kellner-Béchereau UD ?

[Ferry_vO]

Close enough although I have the type listed as a 28VD.

Hoped to have fooled you all a bit longer with an actual good looking French aircraft! :d

[& Co.]

Decidedly, I keep struggling with my sources to get the right designation :d

This one should resist for at least 5 seconds:

[Moses03]

The Finnmark had me going. :icon_lol:

Tough sometimes when you don't have a single Janes volume to reference. Thats just sour grapes though.

[lefty]

Sorry, Moses, it has been around the quizzes, that one. (and it is in at least one of the Putnams you listed in another thread!)

&Co's supremely ugly bug is a Tomashyevich (whichever way you want to spell it) Pegas 04.

[& Co.]

:guinness: Indeed Lefty !

Over to our Caledonian Relic - as usual :d

[lefty]

Thanks, Yann

As it is raining buckets here today, I shall stick to a watery theme - a nice (and this time really easy) one...

[lefty]

OH dear, the bug's got to this forum ! I am shown as having posted this morning, but the post itself has disappeared.

No, there it is now - I can see it is going to be one of those days.

[Lionus]

Dare I guess that it's Fairchild F-91?

[hewman100]

Pretty good guess by my reckoning Lionus

[Lionus]

I think I'll wait for affirmation before posting a plane.. it's hopefully a challenging one.

[lefty]

Well, after the Finnmark, we now have a Finn who's on the mark ! :costumes: (sorry about that one)

Yes it's a Fairchild 91, Captured by the Nationalists from a ship in the Bay of Biscay and serving with them throughout the Spanish Civil War.

Over to chillier climes for the next mystery, and welcome, Lionus !

[Lionus]

Thank you! and let's give this one a try..

http://i34.tinypic.com/343j2ar.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/vn0a5t.jpg

they both are same plane as you can tell, but what plane is it? :d

[& Co.]

Welcome, Lionus !

Your mystery looks like a Dunne (D8 ?)

[Lionus]

it indeed is Burgess-Dunne from 1914. That didn't last too long, only.. 23 minutes.:redf::banghead: I'll get more challenging one next time, your turn. :applause:

[& Co.]

Ah, the US licenced version - I could not have been so specific.

Mysteries are quite surprising. We were discussing it the other day whith Moses03: those you expect to last for days fall within minutes, those you think easy turn out to be stinkers... Go figure.

Next one, then. Probably an easy one:

[lefty]

I think that's a Bleriot III-3

[Moses03]

That looks like the one Lefty.

[& Co.]

See Lionus ? That was an easy one :d

:icon29: over to Lefty (maybe a glass of Laphroaig would do better at that time of day but there's no icon for it ;) )

[Lionus]

indeed.

[lefty]

Here's an assembly from the spare parts box..............

[Moses03]

Looks like a KhAI-24 autogyro.

[lefty]

Gulp ! You got it - the Moses treasure chest has more gems than I thought - a :icon29: for you, and I'll have one myself to cheer me up - it has been an unutterably foul day here - wind, rain, and general misery.

[Moses03]

I don't have much on those types but got lucky this time.

That weather you describe actually sounds good to me. Could use a bit of that in this sun-drenched dustbowl.

Here is the next one. I like the look of this bipe-

[lefty]

Funnily enough, last weekend I visited Cragside, the house in Northumberland built by William, Lord Armstrong. This aircraft bears his name, as founder of the great armaments empire.

It is an Armstrong Whitworth A.W.XVI

[Moses03]

Right! Over to Scotland. :icon29:

[lefty]

Lucky break, that one. Had decided from the start it was a Hawker, stumbled across the A.W.

Will have to look out some more exotics - in the meantime here's one to keep it rolling.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

It's a Fouga CM-100 from la belle France...

[Ralf Roggeveen]

...anybody care to explain this?

[lefty]

Nearly fell into the Ashton trap there, but of course it's the Tudor 8.

Well done on the Fouga, still referred to in my Janes of the period as a Castel-Mauboussin C.M. 100 ! :icon29: (bit early but have one anyway.)

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Very, very good! :ernae: In fact you're better than my early 1950s book, which has mistakenly labelled VX195 'The Ashton', though it was, indeed, the Tudor 9 (such as WB490 on the right below) that was so-designated. VX195 was the only Tudor 8, with RR Nene Mk 5 turbojets.

Can anybody ever beat lefty at this game? :d

[Lionus]

Who knows. Maybe either of us creative flying Finns could give him a tough nut to crack someday.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Make sure you get everything Finnish that he posts! (Ferry & I are expected to get all the Dutch ones.)

:netherland::ernae::finland:

[lefty]

Can anybody ever beat lefty at this game? :d

A certain gentleman from Texas does it regularly !


More of Lefty's floaters....

[Hurricane]

I'll have a guess at this being a home grown mystery.

[Moses03]

Maybe a Finn VL E.30 Kotka I?

[lefty]

I was really hoping those cocky Finns would falter on this one !

Another beer heads for the prairies.....................

[Moses03]

Sorry to steal your thunder Lionus.

Moving along with this sizeable triplane-

[Lionus]

heh, it's okay. I'm not as good in this game as Greycap is.

[Moses03]

The triplane also had an "interesting story". Purpose built for one event.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[Lionus]

Is that Voisin?

[Moses03]

Not a Voisin or French for that matter...

[lefty]

Suspected it was another American, and finally tracked it down as an International CF-10.

[Moses03]

This one was built for the Dole Race of 1927. It crashed taking off from San Francisco and never made it down to Los Angeles for the start.

Well done Lefty. :icon29: Have at it-

[lefty]

Here's another example of unconventional aeronautical engineering -

[Moses03]

I can't find a complete picture, but relevant verbage leads me to believe this is a Salmson-Moineau S.M.2.

"One aircraft may have been fitted experimentally with a Salmson P9 engine. A single S.M.2 aircraft, with an additional Salmson 9A engine in the nose driving a conventional tractor airscrew, was tested with poor results, due to inadequate engine cooling, in 1918."

[lefty]

Good one, Kevin, expected that to last a bit. :icon29: for the Salmson-Moineau S.M.2

[Moses03]

Thanks Lefty.

How about this piecemeal looking bird?

[lefty]

With all those angles, looks like an early Stealth Fighter..........and that looks like a Brisfit in the background. Hmmm.........

[Moses03]

........and that looks like a Brisfit in the background. Hmmm.........

Not sure what those are in the background. At this airport it could be almost anything! :d

This one is a bit of a stinker in that it might have a couple of different names.

[lefty]

This one is a bit of a stinker in that it might have a couple of different names.

And I can't think of either of them...... It just looks very German.

[Moses03]

You can rule out German...

[Hurricane]

I thought British.

Although with looks like that it could easily be French!:costumes:

[sandar]

It is ugly enough to be French, or one of Koolhoven's designs, but I am leaning towards one of the Polish R.W.D's

[Moses03]

This is turning into a bit of a dartboard. I think it’s time to post some fresh game. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The mystery is a Spanish Loring RB or AISA RB depending on your source. (Not sure when the Loring Company evolved into AISA).



This next one is easier. One of my favorite lesser-known flying boats.

[lefty]

Now you're talking my language ! This cranky lady is a Short R.24/31.

[Hurricane]

:banghead: I knew I knew it, but just couldn't place it.

Its all this work on my final year project, not good for the brain! (on the other hand it could be the beer!)

[Moses03]

Sorry James, you got Knuckledusted!

Lefty :icon29:

[Hurricane]

I'd narrowed it down to being British but somehow Shorts never even crossed my mind!

[lefty]

Well try this much easier one, James.

[Hurricane]

Not sure about it being much easier!

It does look vaguely familiar but most flying boats from that sort of time have a similar sort of look.

[lefty]

All I'll say at the moment is that it isn't British.

[sandar]

Macchi C100

[lefty]

Spot on, Sandar ! Have a :icon29: on me. (I think Moses had this one but was being modest).


What mysteries can you come up with ??????

[sandar]

http://i38.tinypic.com/20qntqd.jpg

I'm a bit new to this lark,I hope I can upload an image

[Hurricane]

Image has uploaded ok.

My first thought was Spartan Cruiser but that had inline engines so back to the drawing board!

[Moses03]

Maybe a Wibault 281T?

[Hurricane]

Could be. I think it looks more like the 282 but they're both pretty much identical.

I was looking at British or Italian, didn't think it looked particularly French.

[Moses03]

Just found that same pic.

[sandar]

:ernae: Yep, it's a Wibault-Penault 281. I didn't think it looked very French either. Guess there is no puling the wool over any eyes here.

Where will I find the foaming jar of ale? (lager or whatever it is?)

[lefty]

The Spartan was much leaner than this one, James (Here is the last remaining bit of one, in East Fortune).

No, Sandar's mystery is a French lady, a Wibault 281.

Gulp, what happened ? Two posts appeared from nowhere - beaten to it "

[lefty]

Something odd going on here - when I looked at the thread, James' Spartan quote was the last post - now they keep appearing from out of the blue! That wee gremlin must be lurking still in there, Ickie !

[Hurricane]

I realised that as soon as I checked to see if there was a radial version. Just the first low wing trimotor (other than the Ju52) which popped into my head.

[sandar]

Lefty, have you visited National Museum of Flight at East Fortune? I have never been there. It is too far away for me to visit on a day trip, but is it worth a long weekend in Lothian?

I am far too spoilt for choice where I live as I have at least 6 world class aviation museums within a little over an hours drive. Not to mention the annual Moth rally at Woburn.

[lefty]

East Fortune is good but probably not worth a long trip, as you say. Unfortunately they decided to put a lot of resources, i.e. cash, into getting a ruddy Concorde (which has absolutely no Scottish connection) and everything else is shoved away in tatty hangars. A motley collection but some relative rarities like the Me163 and G.A. Cygnet, as well as a Bolingbroke which is actually being worked on.

I was down at a special open day recently where the curator took us behind the scenes - the engine and prop room is a bit special.

Also found myself last week in another museum - anyone know where this is ?

[Hurricane]

That would be North East Air Museum.

Another one on my list to visit (which also includes East Fortune).

The Concorde is a double edged sword, they have moved a lot of stuff into other hangars but everything is indoors and Concorde is what brings in a lot of the money (so I'm told) to cover the costs of looking after the other stuff.

I hear their workshop hangar is bigger than our display hangar! (I heard there is even room to park your car in the hangar, so no wandering halfway across the museum with your toolbox in winter)

[Moses03]

Thanks sandar.

This fellow is obviously proud of his rugged aeroplane-

[lefty]

Now I think I've posted one of these before in a different guise. I think it's an Egyptian Hawker Audax with Panther engine. (Curiously omitted from the Putnam Hawker by Mason)

[Moses03]

I think it's an Egyptian Hawker Audax with Panther engine. (Curiously omitted from the Putnam Hawker by Mason)

Hmm, well maybe that's because it is in my Putnam Avro volume as a Avro 674. I can't tell the difference between the Audax Mk. X & the 674.

"...in view of the amount of redesign, allotted their own type number Avro 674."

Good call on the Panther X. :guinness: Over to the Scotsman-

[sandar]

If memory serves correctly (old age and senility are conspiring against me now :rolleyes:), the original specification for the aeroplane, which spawned the 'Fury' series from Hawker, specified a radial engine requirement, later altered to the R.R. Kestrel.

Oh, I have found the beers (told you about the senility, didn't I?) :guinness::icon29:

[lefty]

Yes, I remember it now - my Jane's of the period still calls it a Hawker, but Moses is right. I'll take the beer anyway ! (although in the real world, I am sworn off it for a while till my waistline reaches acceptable proportions again)

Right, lets move around a bit...

[Moses03]

Thinking maybe USA but not sure at all. Hmm...

[sandar]

I too, though American, but there are similarities to the Fokker Super Universal, except the mystery one is more modern.

[lefty]

Ooooh, I'm loving this.................:d

[lefty]

I think it is maybe hint time.

I can gleefully tell you it is EAST EUROPEAN !

[sandar]

I know it's European, I also know it's an ICAR IAR-36 Commercial from Romania

Or if you prefer it is a license built Messerschmitt M-36.

[lefty]

Another :icon29: of something appropriate is pulled in Buckinghamshire. I.A.R.-36 she is. Our resident Eastern Horror specialists are slipping.

[sandar]

Not too sure if this is easy or not


http://i38.tinypic.com/w9z4aw.jpg

[lefty]

Well it is one that features in my Polish book - a PZL P.50/1 Jastrab 1. Too little, too late, for the Poles, sadly.

[sandar]

:scotland::guinness::icon29::scotland: =:poland:.
No scotch, only guiness and lager.

[lefty]

Thanks - been clearing up in the garden - thirsty work- glorious day here.

Here's a quickie which should last about 5 minutes

[sandar]

Looks remarkably like an Airspeeed Queen Wasp. I'll be a bit red faced if it isn't. I didn't bother to check.

I always thought it was a waste of good looking aeroplane and a shame it had to shot at. Anyone wondering what I am taling about, it was designed as a pilotless target drone for the RAF and RN

[lefty]

No blushes necessary, Sandar - it's a Queen Wasp. Normally seen with floats, of course.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

'Glorious day' there, bah! It's freezing & drizzle all day down here. Some of us are slaving over a hot scenery library!

Where's your next mystery, Mike? :sleep:

[lefty]

It's up to Sandar, Ralf.

[sandar]

I very nearly dropped a brick and named the Wasp as Queen Bee. I wasn't getting the aeroplanes mixed up, just their names :redf:. Caught the error before I posted the answer though.

Anyway, have a go at tis little beauty

http://i38.tinypic.com/jua1i0.jpg