Another good company closing its doors. [Archive]

Lionheart

May 18th, 2009, 13:52

Well that was the next logic step I quess..Never heard of them and from what I see on their website no wonder..How can you sell something like that this days ? Maybe the screenshot are deceiving but i,ve seen better looking freeware for most of those models..You have to keep with Nemeth Design ,Aerosoft, Alphasim and other few top notch helicopter designers.It,s called progress.I think the days when one single guy could make a payware model from start to finish it,s kinda over. The quality standard that CptSim ,A2A and Aerosoft models have today requires a lot of man power.

I make models by myself. Not always. The Epic was on my own, gauges, textures, sound, mesh, everything. I grew alot of gray hair and it took a year, but I did it. I wish I had a gauge maker back then to help out but everyone was busy.

Personal viewpoint on the industry;

* Sales are way down, the sim world has slowed down
* Models take way too long now to create. Making a plane in one year instead of 1 to 3 months has ripped peoples profits apart. Figure the time invested to build a model spread out through 5 to 8 people, cuts from royalties from websites, taxes, any advertising, costs for managing (surviving) in business, what else do you have? Play money... Nothing big time.

Piracy has also put a huge dent in sales.

I think we are in a sort of bottle neck. A new sim came out that was very demanding to build for, and was very demanding on hardware, and that caused a huge ripple effect of people quitting the developing biz.

It is a shame to see such great teams shutting down instead of growing. It is a very demanding field to work in and takes tons and tons of time and talent and concentration. It isnt as easy as it looks. When someone in this field says 'their blood sweat and tears', they mean it.

Bill

tigisfat

May 18th, 2009, 21:43

Piracy has also put a huge dent in sales.

We've been through this before. Even Bill Gates has spoken publically saying that piracy has a negligible effect on a software developer's profits. Pirates don't even consider buying software, they either pirate it or they don't. Therefore, no money is lost because nothing was ever going to be bought. What is lost is substantial, but it's not monetary.

Furthermore, you can't say "piracy has put a huge dent in sales" because piracy is an unknown metric that cannot be measured. When I worked for a small hardware store, my boss would always blame dissapointing numbers on the opening of a Home Depot several blocks away. That situation could neither be measured or controlled completely. The only thing we could do was pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and offer FAR better customer service. Whining about piracy won't help, but I'm sure additional anti-piracy measures can be instituted.

What I'm saying is; we can't sit around and watch our hobby dwindle while complaining about ghost problems like piracy. While optimum pricing for a developer may support a 60 dollar price tag, is that good for the hobby?

Roger

May 19th, 2009, 01:54

wombat666

May 19th, 2009, 06:34

Fiscally you may be right tigi, but the effect on a small developer seeing his months or years of hard work sitting there ready for bit torrent download just hours after the official release must be devastating and very demoralising.

I'm becoming rather frustrated by some of the developers when it comes to 'Piracy Issues'.
If one takes the trouble to let them know their work has been stolen and where it is available, the reactions fall into four distinct groups.

1:'Thanks, but we believe this is a fact of life'.

2:'Thanks, we've been able to have it removed'.

3:Several weeks after being notified.....'Thanks but I don't read my emails very often'.

4:'Thanks but I've never been able to get anything removed from 'xyz' download site!!! It's all a bit too hard.'

While I have nothing but contempt for the thieves, most of the time the stolen property can be removed from the down load hosting site, they DO have a policy to protect themselves.
However, once something ends up on TPB then that's all she wrote.
While most of us are only too happy to keep watch, in the end it is up to the 'Legal Owners' to request a site remove their stolen property.
:isadizzy:

I almost overlooked the 5th group:' ---------------------------------------', the few who never reply either way!

krazycolin

May 19th, 2009, 06:47

I'm not going to comment on the piracy issues but I would like to comment on the cost and charge aspect of this.

It's obvious to me and almost certainly all the other devs too, that, though the cost(s) of making a plane with all the bells and whistles and textures and bumps and gauges that are amazing etc etc... has gone WAY up, we're not able to raise our prices without incurring screams of rage and wrath. Honestly, I do understand that most of you feel that 30 bucks is the MAX that we (as dev's) should be charging however, I can tell you now that after the costs and expenses are taken into account, we're making very little, if any, of that 30 bucks. I'm not saying that we (devs) should raise our prices BUT... you, as our clients, must be prepared to accept the fact that you are leaving us no room to manoeuver. We're all trying to stay within the status quo, but... beleive me when I say to you that we would all like a raise too.

KC.

Bone

May 19th, 2009, 07:22

I don't mind paying for quality. I've paid 30 US dollars for something that wasn't worth half of that (pisssed me off), and I've paid 30 dollars for something worth twice that (made me happy). All in all, I want to pay for what I'm getting, and I'd rather dispense with the surprises...good or bad. I'll pay 60+ dollars if it's really worth it...but, it's gotta be good.

The VRS F-18 Superbug is a nice model, but what I don't like about it is the anti-piracy aspect of it. You can't use FSrecorder with it because of the anti-piracy coding. You can't fly in multi-player with someone who has the Superbug. If you want to reformat your hard drive, you need to transfer your license back to VRS first. It's nice, but I wouldn't have bought it if I knew about this.

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 08:19

The VRS F-18 Superbug is a nice model, but what I don't like about it is the anti-piracy aspect of it. You can't use FSrecorder with it because of the anti-piracy coding. You can't fly in multi-player with someone who has the Superbug. If you want to reformat your hard drive, you need to transfer your license back to VRS first. It's nice, but I wouldn't have bought it if I knew about this.

The anti-piracy software has NOTHING to do with why it doesn't work with multiplayer or FSRecorder well. They do work actually, it is just that certain aspects of the software simply do not work due to the high level of custom coding to make this aircraft operate like the real one. This is inherent in many complex addons, such as the 377 from A2A, PMDGs planes, Arianes, Captain Sim, etc. How do I know this? I made the official videos for the product, and used multiplayer AND FSRecorder. Lets not get our stories crossed. These issues are only made worse by the fact that FS in general does not support these features from developers well, making them often break down in such scenarios (multiplayer, shared cockpit, etc) in order for them to create a reasonable simulation.

AGAIN, this has NOTHING to do with the anti-piracy software!

As for re-licensing the software, it only takes a few minutes if that? What is the problem? You spend 3+ years working on some software only to see it ripped by kiddies. The software is simple, with online activation that only takes a few seconds. It is no more onerous than Microsofts registration system, but without the phone calls.

I don't see the problem....

IanP

May 19th, 2009, 09:17

The answer to your comment about only taking a few seconds to transfer a license back is this, Cody: "My hard drive spindle just snapped."

Not as common as it used to be, but it still does happen very regularly. And yes, it is damned hard to see illegal copies of your software on the net, but overzealous copy protection removes those very customers you are so desperate to increase to keep unit costs down.

After the mess surrounding the release of Spore and the vast numbers of people who were unable to ever use it because every attempted activation used up one of their three "lives" for the key, EA have dropped the system entirely from Sims3. The majority of people don't object to copy protection, but they do object a lot to not being able to use a product they have paid for the right to.

Bone

May 19th, 2009, 09:25

Hey CodyV, I queried the FSrecorder issue on the VRS website, and according to them it is a result of the anti-piracy coding. To run the Superbug, the guages have to be initialized with your license, and the license only allows you to initialize one set of guages...ie, the set you are going to use to fly the Superbug. You can't play back the Superbug because the software see's the recording as an un-initialized Superbug. That was their answer to my querry, so if I'm ignorant, then it's because they gave me an answer for dumbasses. Also, I tried multi-player with a friend who has the Superbug, and it didn't work.

Look, I strongly believe people should be paid for their hard work, and making a high quality FS model is hard work. I don't begrudge the makers of a model that incorporate stiff anti-piracy measures, it's just that I don't want to pay for something that won't let me get what I want out of it as a legitimate user.

P.S. If you were able to use the VRS model with FSrecorder, I sure would like to know how you did it.

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 09:27

Ian, this isn't rocket science. It also isn't a very intrusive system. You simply put in a few details, which were given to you when you purchased the package and VIOLA, it activates you. It takes seconds. To me, this is not more harsh than the system that Aerosoft has, and takes nearly as much time.

With this same system I COMPLETELY upgraded my system (new mobo, CPU, hard drives, Vista, etc), utilized 5 different betas and never once had an issue.

This to me is no more intrusive than the Flight1 wrapper. Again, I don't see the problem. I actually takes longer to set up the control system properly to give it a "true" fly by wire system, because of a VERY serious flaw with FS and how it recognizes controllers than it does to install.

If a legitimate key is not utilized, the program simply won't work.

My only aim here is to extinguish misinformation and clarify how the system works, and franky it is getting a very fallicious and unfair shake, mixed in with information that SIMPLY ISN'T CORRECT.

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 09:40

Bone, I was able to utilize FSRecorder within certain extents. Now, unless something changed that I am not aware of when I was deeply involved with the project, I have no clue what you are talking about. While I am not part of their support team, nor is it common to provide support outside of the VRS website, I called Jon Blum, owner of VRS and am awaiting an answer from him. Either he will himself respond with an answer here, or I will tell you what we talked about.

All I know is that it worked for me, within certain limits for a VIDEO ONLY. Even if what you say is true, and the system unlocked liked it worked for me, I don't think you would be happy regardless. The custom programming literally takes your input and reruns it back into the simulator. Even if you were able to utilize it, many aspects such as afterburners, many control surfaces, animations and other core features of the product simply would not work. And rightly so! These are NOT features that FS was ever intended to cover, and to make the plane fly correct, they HAD to do it this way. As I said, this is a problem with MANY complex addons. To say the least, filming the PMDG 747-400X for FSX took me 2 weeks, for only 2 minutes or so of footage, which ended up only showing the plane taxiing around and taking off.

The same problem occurs with the A2A Stratocruiser when doing shared cockpit. Because the coding was so heavy, when in shared cockpit all functionality slowed to a complete crawl. It takes almost two minutes or more for a light flipped on to appear in the other person's cockpit. FS in general was never given the efficient coding, nor the SDK given to developers in order to make this system efficient, and any attempt with such a complex addon often falls FLATLY on it's face when used. I could give tons of similar examples, because I fight with these features on a daily basis when attempting to film them with FSRecorder and on multiplayer sessions.

This is all I am going to say further until I get a hold of Jon.

IanP

May 19th, 2009, 09:42

If you want to reformat your hard drive, you need to transfer your license back to VRS first. It's nice, but I wouldn't have bought it if I knew about this.

That's the post you replied to Cody and your reply is what I responded to.

How can you transfer a license that is trapped on a broken disk?

For clarity, I don't have the Superbug. I have no use for it at the moment because I don't use FS9, but I have had to deal with this situation both as tech support (we issued them a new key) and the customer (the developer dug their heels in). For the company I was working with as the customer side of that, it cost us £6000 for a new license because the software was mission critical and was a single machine, hardware locked, license.

Is that a severe kick in the teeth? Yes, it is. And we went out and found replacement software instead of the same potential problem happening again. The replacement software was still running happily on a replacement PC when I left it.

The point I am making, however, is not about the Superbug, but about software protection in general. When many people see and hear bad things about an activation system, they don't buy. It's happened time and time again, so while there is a balance to be struck, it is a balance and cannot seriously penalise legitimate users. A lot of developers seem to forget that in their rush to protect their software.

Flight1, incidentally, go out of their way to make a system that doesn't penalise the customer. Intrusive isn't the problem - the problem is how well it works when the system goes wrong and the more complex you make it, the more likely it is to go wrong for more people.

Bone

May 19th, 2009, 09:59

My only aim here is to extinguish misinformation and clarify how the system works, and franky it is getting a very fallicious and unfair shake, mixed in with information that SIMPLY ISN'T CORRECT.

I'm assumming you are trying to extiguish misinformation that is in my previous two posts. Maybe you should reread my second post before you completely extinguish me.

Even the VRS people say you can't use the Superbug with FSrecorder. If you got it to work, please let the rest of know how you did it. I'd really like to know, it would make me happy as a clam. I also couldn't get it to work in multiplayer, let me know how you pulled that off. I'll gladly come back to this thread and say YIPEE IT WORKS, WOO HOO!

gajit

May 19th, 2009, 10:05

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 10:31

The VRS Superbug to my knowledge worked only by the playback feature, and NOT as play as traffic. Unfortunately, as I said, this is due to the coding required and was evident very early on. In order to make it work completely, I had to alias the model which literally took me two days of tweaking to get it to work, and used a defunct Cessna 172 file to mimick some of the features. Needles to say, it was a hack at best. The same applied to a multiplayer session.

Even in testing, when I went to Jon's house, we could only make it work via the playback feature... which meant I simply could not fly with myself and record multiple tracks. The same can be said for a lot of addons, regardless of how they implement the anti-piracy software. In order to make the system work 100% through such a device, Jon and team would literally have to strip all of the core features of the product and "dumb it down," making it more like a default aircraft.

The problem is very similar to why many helicoptors do not work with FSRecorder.

The misinformation I talked about was that the anti-piracy software was causing the problems. I tend to disagree, and want to confirm it with Jon before proceeding forward.

When you mention the VRS people, I'm curious who you are talking about... I know the whole team and know Jon as a friend. I'm not throwing around names, I just want to know who you talked to. With a large product like this, a lot of people may not know the full story, or even the limitations of such a product.

I would like to point out that nowhere did the product say it was compatible with multiplayer, NOR should a product ever be produced to work directly with FSRecorder. Doing so would mean the end of technologies like PMDG, A2A, VRS, CaptainSim, LevelD and numerous other companies have created. That is why you more than likely have never seen an FMC work fully and completely compatibally in a multiplayer shared cockpit.

Ian:
I understand what you are saying, but you have the system of activation completely wrong. All that is needed are the keys generated by the sale, which you can easily find in your e-mail when you purchased the product. There is no hard file that you must somehow retain, but even if there was, how is that any different than backing up the product originally when you purchased it in the first place?

I digress. I'm not making any additional money by saying any of this. I'm just trying to defend the reputation of a very excellent product of which I helped market to consumers, and that of Jon the company owner. I fear however I may be doing more damage than good and would like to have this clarified by Jon himself.

Lionheart

May 19th, 2009, 10:34

Furthermore, you can't say "piracy has put a huge dent in sales" because piracy is an unknown metric that cannot be measured.

Tigisfat

I can. And I did.

Bill

Bone

May 19th, 2009, 10:37

To CodyV. Here is the VRS answer to my FSrecorder querry. Pay attention to his remark about anti-theft device.

Report this post (http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/report.php?f=3&p=12036)
Reply with quote (http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=12036)
Re: FSrecorder issue (http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1624#p12036)

http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=12036#p12036)by Rob P. (http://www.vrsimulations.com/forums/phpBB3/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=263) on Mon May 04, 2009 11:05 pm
It's not going to work because when replaying, FSRecorder makes the sim think the aircraft is being loaded again. This cannot be done unless you load the 2D panel to initialize gauges - without initializing the guages, the Superbug will not function and/or will not show up. The FSRecorder loaded flight tries to load the aircraft, and without being able to open the 2D panel, it is unable to do so.

You could call it an anti-theft device.. sort of like self destruction when in the wrong hands. No solution as of yet. Sorry!

n4gix

May 19th, 2009, 10:50

Just to be clear, understand that FS Recorder has two entirely separate "replay" modes:

1. Instant Replay - this will "mostly" work because FS Recorder is using the currently loaded user's aircraft for the replay.

2. Replay of Recorded flight - this mode creates a new instance of the recorded aircraft, and leaves the user's aircraft alone.

It is #2 that won't work if there's any form of gauge/model protection in place.

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 11:23

Interesting response. To note, I do not believe Rob is part of the team, but is certainly knowledgable on most parts of this aircraft. My understanding was even more diabolical than previously described, and is more closely related the control system and how it was implemented outside of FS itself. Since it is making a call to the control system, on an aircraft "shell" so to speak, FS doesn't know what necessarily to do with it therefor simply doesn't render the system at all. This is a very similar issue that I have had with other pieces of software that do not have any anti-theft programming. Similar to what Bill described, but more diabolical because the system altogether requires a control set outside of FS to work. It has the same effect regardless.

At least, that is my understanding with spending a month trying to film this thing. As I said, I was able to loosely mirror it with a default aircraft description, but not only did I not document it because the system was only for show (video), but there is no use for anyone else out there to utilize it.

stiz

May 19th, 2009, 11:31

heres an idea, haveing a thread about FS paywares that didnt spiral into yet another priacy discusion. Its around, it always has been, it always will be, and in my mind disscussing and posting the names of the places only leads to the advertisment of it :engel016:

IanP

May 19th, 2009, 11:46

The facts here are that the packages I have from TheLZ have no copy protection at all and that they are closing, claiming that people breaching their copyright killed them.

Here's why I no longer buy their models: They're not FSX packages and don't port well at all. Multiply me by many people who have switched from FS9 to FSX and sales go through the floor.

Would I buy the Huey B again were it released with exactly the same features, but re-animated and re-compiled for FSX? Almost certainly (price dependent). According to their website, most of their customers use FS9 - well considering the fact that they sell FS9 models with problems in FSX, that isn't at all surprising to me - the same as Aerosoft can quite legitimately say that 100% of their customers for AES use FS9. It's an FS9 only package!

I may be in a minority here, so I'll ask the question: How many people here would pay a reasonable amount for FS9 standard aircraft compiled into FSX to remove the problems such as transparencies and the frame rate hit?

icarus

May 19th, 2009, 11:50

there are much probabilities i will be the next to end with aircrafts...especially after some treatment...i know i will not be missed.

Bone

May 19th, 2009, 11:53

I may be in a minority here, so I'll ask the question: How many people here would pay a reasonable amount for FS9 standard aircraft compiled into FSX to remove the problems such as transparencies and the frame rate hit?

I would. I've spent too much time re-guaging port overs, and I could reclaim about 50 gigs of hard drive space by deleting my FSX SP1 version (needed for glass issues).

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 18:23

Ok, I talked to Jon. He substantiated what I was saying.

Essentially, the VRS plane takes the input from your controller, runs it through an algorithm and then injects it into Flight Simulator to produce a true fly by wire system. All input controls are capture through the VRS software to produce the effect. Because of this, while some modes of FSRecorder work, the system breaks down due to FS's inability to see this background coding, and quite frankly there is no way other than through the default controls in FS to make it work properly. This is the bane of attempting to produce such a system, as the default controls in FS simply are not sufficient for a realistic simulation.

As for the licensing, if any hardware is signifigantly changed there are two options that the user can do. 1) they may ask for a reactivation on their key and wait until Jon can do it or 2) they can send the license proper to their servers, which will reactivate the software automatically. The latter is the easiest for most and can be done in a matter of a couple of minutes. No rootkits, no 3-5 days of waiting for the reactivation, no calls to home, just a simple process to keep the pirates from getting illegal keys of the software and giving Jon the ability to shut down keys that are being used by tens of people across multiple IPs.

Jon Blum at VRS also stated that should anyone be unhappy with the software he is happy to offer a refund.

Cheers and sorry for all this mess.

CodyValkyrie

May 19th, 2009, 18:26

there are much probabilities i will be the next to end with aircrafts...especially after some treatment...i know i will not be missed.
Aww man, please don't say that.

I have been trying to get a hold of you mate.

My apologies BTW for not getting your video done. With the spike in work, I brought in a new videographer and we are currently working on your video as we speak. As a sign of good faith I'm going to give you some early PR for the wait you have had to endure.

For those that do not know, I was given all of his wonderful products for FSX in exchange for a video. I simply haven't had time to finish it proper, and I would like to publicly apologize to Icarus.

Contact me soon mate. I would like to discuss it further with you.

krazycolin

May 19th, 2009, 18:42

there are much probabilities i will be the next to end with aircrafts...especially after some treatment...i know i will not be missed.

Yah man, don't quit!!!

N2056

May 19th, 2009, 18:50

I have to agree with Colin. Icarus, there are going to be occasions when people are going to criticize. I have been following the exchanges in question. It happens...part of the game. I realize that your health has been an issue recently, and you are just getting back into the game, but I do hope that you do not give up over a few negative comments. Your group does good work, and as much as we would like to be...we can't always be perfect ;)

icarus

May 19th, 2009, 20:20

your health has been an issue recently

yes and still giving some minors problems now, probably i am too much sensitive to comments in this period.

criticize is well accepted..criticism help emprove products... bytheway sometimes i can't get frustrated of some comments and don't say nothing...it's one of my many many defects...good to talk here with many nice people.

I am working to become as the blade runner's enemy...I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. Aircrafts modelled by themselves...painted by themselves and going around forums to post and to sell themselves..(this part is mine--humorism help) and customers always happy and saying i like also defects and please don't correct......lol

My apologies BTW for not getting your video done.

no problems i will try to catch you tonight or tomorrow cody

Lionheart

May 19th, 2009, 21:29

Icarus, stay strong man.

There are always people who go off on models and say bad things. Pretend they dont exist.

The Epic was written up perhaps 5 times (personal reviews) at SimFlight (by one single person...) as being the worst model they had ever flown, was barely worth being freeware, etc. The rudest comments I had ever seen 'ever'. Meanwhile, I am getting tons of emails saying its one of the best models they have. So, dont listen to the negativity. Dont let one person get you depressed enough to quit. It would hurt all of us...

Bill

icarus

May 19th, 2009, 21:30

The Epic was written up perhaps 5 times (personal reviews) at SimFlight as being the worst model they had ever flown,

Really? unbelievable....so having for the gladiator zero negative comments and 5 stars on simflight and fspilot it's a miracle...strange i didn't visit lourdes this year......

Prowler1111

May 19th, 2009, 22:10

There is absolutely NOTHING hackers and pirates can´t break appart and hack it, nothing, not even FSX (trust me, where i live you can find deluxe version for as low as 2 bucks)So i use a well based fact:
90% of people who get their files thru illegal sharing servers NEVER had the intention to buy it in the 1st place, actually, if it´s not there, they don´t even bother, so you can consider them as a factual NO SALE.
of that 10% left, 5% do it as a kind of "try before you buy" and those who do buy it, do it for the customer support and/or support their developer. and the rest, well, those are the ones that lure these sites and firmly believe the internet is a "free world" and we are all capitalist pigs.So..why spend 1000´s of dollars in anti piracy software that wont stop some MFer to hack your product, but at the same time rises the final price, and/or produce customer unsatisfaction in any degree?Blaming piracy for the demise of your biz is not a good call, facing the fact that we´re no longer in 2004/2005 and that to stay current you have to create a very detailed model, plus some degree of complexity and/or functionality and price it accordinly to what you´re going to get, is the wise move.There is a lot of talent there (the LZ), i suggest they get it all in one place and update/upgrade an existing offering into a full native FSX model...100% sure THAT will improve things.Just IMHO
Best regards
Prowler

jmig

May 20th, 2009, 04:15

I would like to see more try before you buy. I would be willing to pay more for a product that offers me more of what I want.

The VRS F-18 is a good example. I reinstalled FS9 to try it and found it to be well worth the money. If they come out with a FSX model, I will be in the front of the line to purchase the new model.

On the try before you buy, I suggest a timed flight of around 15-20 minutes. That is enough time to tell if you like the model enough to buy it. It will help to peek the excitement and desire to fully own the product without having to buy and later find out it isn't what you thought it was.

As for pirates, I have no facts of figures on real loses. My gut tells me that Prowler is correct. I think the majority of people who pirate flight simulation software would never buy it anyway.

Flight simulation is like the rest of the world. You have to keep up with the changes and always be giving more. If you don't, you will be passed by others who do so. We all know companies who once were big names in this industry fall behind because they didn't stay abreast with the changing demands of the customers.

That being said, I want to thank all the developers, both commercial and freeware for all the hours of pleasure you have given me in this hobby.

icarus

May 20th, 2009, 04:27

people who pirate flight simulation software would never buy it anyway.

i have to disagree...this is not the place...especially in public...about a closure of two piracy websites and a forum during last three month...i can tell you that many pirates read here and on others forums to catch latest release buy them and passing products.......and i could tell you at least ten names of pirates buying(many are now blocked to buying or do not have anymore accounts.)...and i know many more things me and some others from different companies were discovered......if you was reading for weeks on their forum to discovered who they are and how they act...you could see many people buying before...that after discovered the easy way didn't buy anymore..i have catched at least ten customer(now ex customer) not buying anymore for pirates. there are some developers here and especially outside here that know this story....we have a big exchangemet of email last three months..

Bone

May 20th, 2009, 05:01

The VRS F-18 is a good example. I reinstalled FS9 to try it and found it to be well worth the money. If they come out with a FSX model, I will be in the front of the line to purchase the new model.

You know, I'm glad you brought this back up. It is an awesome model, an incredible piece of work. I was just very disapointed that I could not do with it what I really like to do...formation flying. If they do turn it in to an FSX model, I really hope they are able to fix the FSrecorder and multiplayer issues. You'll see me in the same line.

IanP

May 20th, 2009, 05:38

I already know that Bill has every right to ignore me for never getting back in touch with him regarding the Epic, (I am really sorry about that - I won't offer excuses) but I've seen more than enough people perfectly happy with the package to wonder what makes anyone react like that to a model. Given the very limited amount of true FSX freeware available, I'd love to know what they were comparing it to!

Unfortunately people will always want more, for no or minimum outlay. Yet it's interesting that for all these vocal and repeated complaints (often from the same people), some of the best selling products for FS are the lowest quality ones - things like the Abacus box sets. I can only think that this is because they are aimed at, and reach, an entirely different section of the customer base. One that is more interested in being able to fly an aircraft than it being absolutely accurate to the original.

I know that market still exists - as I said before, I'd buy an FSX Huey B compiled for FSX as soon as finances allowed me to - but how financially viable it is I don't know. There are a lot of people out there who will complain that a model "should be freeware" and they will always shout louder than those who are happily flying a model around.

Edit: Something that shoots down your argument, Icarus. Most people using P2P packages could never ever in their lives afford to buy the amount of software they have downloaded. That has been proven in courts of law every time a case has got that far. You have the names of "tens" of people who have bought software and uploaded it to these sites - what about the thousands that I keep reading about who are downloading it?

I have a fixed budget for entertainment every month - it's £100, not that anyone cares. These days, that buys me one non-FS game and usually two FS addons. Again, not that anyone cares, this month it went on Empire: Total War, the Aerosoft Catalina and JustFlight's TrafficX. I have no interest in buying your Dragon Rapide (not knocking it, that's just a statement of fact) so if I downloaded it, have you really lost a sale? What about if I downloaded 3DStudioMAX? Have Autodesk really lost a sale? I could never in a month of paydays afford over £4000 for a software package (yes, I could probably get it cheaper, I'm using it as an example so don't complain that I got the price wrong!) and would never have bought it anyway. The fact that I won't download them illegally just means that I won't have a copy of the Dragon Rapide or MAX, not that I would have bought them if someone else hadn't done so and uploaded them to a warez site.

How can you possibly claim to be able to quantify how many sales you have lost through illegal distribution of your software? That question isn't aimed at Icarus in particular, but any developer. If you sell, plucking figures out of the air, 250 copies of an aeroplane, ten of those sales result in uploads to warez sites and 1000 people download it from them (probably far more) then would you have sold 1250 copies (probably far more) had it not been illegally uploaded? Do you really believe that you would? I find it massively unlikely.

olaf1924

May 20th, 2009, 06:50

[QUOTE=olaf1924;176814]Ian would you give a review for Just Flights Traffic x.

Prowler1111

May 20th, 2009, 07:05

How can you possibly claim to be able to quantify how many sales you have lost through illegal distribution of your software? That question isn't aimed at Icarus in particular, but any developer. If you sell, plucking figures out of the air, 250 copies of an aeroplane, ten of those sales result in uploads to warez sites and 1000 people download it from them (probably far more) then would you have sold 1250 copies (probably far more) had it not been illegally uploaded? Do you really believe that you would? I find it massively unlikely.

...TOUCHÉ!!... Exactly what i said, sadly, i don´t have the hard facts anymore (got all wiped out on a HD crash) but it´s an actual study, that´s what i´m saying...claiming piracy shot you down is not correct!..if there are 10000 illegal downloads does not means you´ll have 10000 sales!Piracy is a cancer we have to learn to live with, you can´t stop it, believe me i tried, for every single MFer pirate i´ve managed to stop, 3 comes to take his place!..I for one, won´t stop developing for this cause, there is still a market, and a lot of honest people around..cheers to them!

Prowler

CodyValkyrie

May 20th, 2009, 07:07

icarus

May 20th, 2009, 07:33

The problem is that it is SO EASY for people not to be honest

infact.

i have seen the difference on sales...before acting or not. i remain on my opinion that is valid for me...and frankly seeing the way conversation has taken...i am ending it here.

IanP

May 20th, 2009, 08:27

Ian, as a friend, I respectfully disagree to a point. I absolutely believe that pirating affects sales. I have seen numerous times where when an addon newly released that the sales are cut nearly in half the moment they become available on said sites. The problem is that it is SO EASY for people not to be honest. That's just the reality.

I for one have had my videos used to advertise pirated copies of software on illigitimate sites. It is all VERY frustrating to know that my videos are being used by pirates to help them spread the disease.

Actually, Cody, I agree with you and I will never disagree that illegal downloads cost developers a lot of sales - more than likely the majority of sales they would otherwise have made in a niche market such as this. What I do disagree with is the ability to quantify exactly how many - which is the point I was trying to illustrate.

The ease with which it can be done is, unfortunately, one of two really big problems, neither of which are likely to be easily resolved. The reason for that is the second, which is that the great unwashed masses see nothing wrong with what they are doing.

I don't really think I need to repeat myself ad nauseum on this site, most people interested have read it all before anyway, but until people start seeing the effect this problem has on their own friends and families, rather than seeing big business complaining that they "only" made multi million profits per quarter and should have been making more, they won't change their minds. If you want to reduce (you'll never eliminate) illegal downloads and file sharing, you have to actually show people why it's wrong. It's already illegal, but too many people don't care and there are too many border and other issues thrown up for the laws that exist to be effectively applied.

IanP

May 20th, 2009, 08:39

Ian would you give a review for Just Flights Traffic x.

Sorry Olaf, I missed your post before.

I've only just started playing with it, so I'm not 100% up to speed yet, but my first thoughts are that it has problems, but I get vastly better FPS with it than I did using FS9 freeware AI and I much prefer the liveries in it to those of MyTrafficX (I have 5.1b so cannot compare it to versions newer than that).

It's far from perfect, but the best package I've tried so far.

Sorry that's a bit short, but as I said, I'm still poking and prodding and this thread probably isn't the right place for a product review! ;)

CodyValkyrie

May 20th, 2009, 08:44

Measuring the quantitive sales lost is not indeed an easy task. I see it akin to how sales are improved by my videos, or in Nick's case, his pictures. We know it helps sales, but we don't know how much. There are a ton of variables at play.

Lionheart

May 20th, 2009, 14:41

I already know that Bill has every right to ignore me for never getting back in touch with him regarding the Epic

Ian.. I dont think I ever got your email. I am sorry man. I try to write every single person back. When the Epic was launched (or any other bird launches) I am blitzed with a whirlwind of emails, and I am the only one here ansering them. They arrive in waves, from Canada/USA to early AM which is Europe/Germany/England/France, and some from Japan. Some emails do not make it, and some of mine that I email out do not arrive either.

Please resend your questions on the Epic. If I do not ansere, email me again. (I also always check the spam box just incase).

Bill

Francois

May 20th, 2009, 22:33

Sorry Olaf, I missed your post before.

I've only just started playing with it, so I'm not 100% up to speed yet, but my first thoughts are that it has problems, but I get vastly better FPS with it than I did using FS9 freeware AI and I much prefer the liveries in it to those of MyTrafficX (I have 5.1b so cannot compare it to versions newer than that).

It's far from perfect, but the best package I've tried so far.

Sorry that's a bit short, but as I said, I'm still poking and prodding and this thread probably isn't the right place for a product review! ;)

I think you should try 5.2a ...... for what I've seen and read it blows ANY AI package out of the water on numerous points. I think the differences between the 3 or 4 on the market are more like 'preference' than in real quality, with MyTraffic of course having the longest track record and being the basis for some of the others even ;-)

And yes, I yes, Silver Cloud Publishing is the PR company for MyTraffic these days and I have blue eyes ..... :jump:

The problem nowadays is that there are hardly in-depth comparison reviews around anymore (or reviewers for that matter), making it really hard to quantify, qualify and choose.

Of course we have review copies available for really serious reviewers (WITH time on their hands... *grinning*).

Francois

May 20th, 2009, 22:41

As for piracy and its effects....... I think there are three camps in the FS world nowadays.

1.
Those like Icarus' who claim it is a huge hit on their sales and who are (trying to) fighting them every inch of the way, sometimes with success, more often without.

2.
Those who claim that it is a problem, but not really for sales; the 'they-wouldn't-buy-anyway' camp. So fogeddaboutit.

3.
And those (like me) who acknowledge the problem, and who will shoot at any pirate, pirate site and dishonest customers that are stupid enough to show up in our crosshairs, but who believe that concentrating on the HONEST people by delivering quality and support is more productive than wasting time on carrying water to the sea.

Take your pick.... and move on.....

icarus

May 20th, 2009, 22:51

Those like Icarus' who claim it is a huge hit on their sales and who are (trying to) fighting them every inch of the way, sometimes with success, more often without.

never claim is an huge hit on sales...where i wrote it???....and about success fswc closed...another one too...so do not seems " more often not" i do not work on aircraft only..i manage servers since 1996 and have knowleadge of hundred programs linux operative system etc...aircraft i build for fun......i know this world. For sure i don't pass all my life thiniking to pirates...pirates and hackers are two different things.

for find links about products its easy just use google and right words...(that are not the title of you products...that's is just too easy)

Francois

May 20th, 2009, 23:07

1.

:wavey:

ROB

May 20th, 2009, 23:37

These are comments of "customers" by the A2A P47 torrent download:

"I have a tiny question, how to install it, and then play it."

"anybody playing this? Any problems?"

"this game doesn't work for me"

"could sombody put in whole FSX? with all addons for it? anybody having such thing?"

"and what is it this acceleration?"

"hmm, if this doesn't work and you have to tweak that fsx, download stuff and keep it updated, excuse me! why the hell someone has put it inhere? I'm sorry to say that but "the torrents" turned into one big garbage."

This shows what stands behind the huge numbers of torrent hits. There were some positive comments - the ratio seems to be 1/10 - but most of these guys download everything because it's there, becasue they can. They are (garbage) collectors. The anty-piracy system may save them frustration, they won't go mad on the street and kill passer-bys.

regards
ROB

icarus

May 21st, 2009, 00:04

"casually" after my post here there is a stupid trying to making something( really a poor guy)on our server.i have seen his three different ip , etc etc....seems he want have some problem nextly. i will never understand why some people like to do those things...i have more interesting talking with mosquitos than with those guys. Seems there is a new trend..create problems to flightsim websites. For sure in their poor brains...having some success with some encourages them to continue.

wombat666

May 21st, 2009, 00:28

never claim is an huge hit on sales...where i wrote it???....and about success fswc closed...another one too...so do not seems " more often not" i do not work on aircraft only..i manage servers since 1996 and have knowleadge of hundred programs linux operative system etc...aircraft i build for fun......i know this world. For sure i don't pass all my life thiniking to pirates...pirates and hackers are two different things.

for find links about products its easy just use google and right words...(that are not the title of you products...that's is just too easy)

Icarus ....... the thieves might have been 'inconvenienced' for a few weeks but don't kid yourself, they're ALL operational once more and doing their thing.
Pirate sites are like the Hydra, cut one head off and another replaces it.
:173go1: