Avsim Destroyed!!

[N400QW]

Folks,

Today, AVSIM was destroyed by a hacker. Both of our primary servers were hacked and the partition tables destroyed, and that will be very difficult to overcome. I won’t speculate on who did it, but we will have a forensic done on our disks and scrutinize the logs to validate our suspicions.

I would appreciate if you could post the following as a news item or announcement on your websites or forums. Check Avon Brochure (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?avon/) and Builders Warehouse Specials (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?builders-warehouse/). Nels and Francois, I know we have been competitors, but I would very much appreciate you posting this on your web sites, if you could.

PRESS RELEASE: AVSIM Hacked!!

Tom Allensworth, CEO and Publisher of AVSIM, today issued the following announcement; “We regret to inform the flight simulation community that on Tuesday, May 12, AVSIM was hacked and effectively destroyed. The method of the hack makes recovery difficult, if not impossible, to recover from. Both servers, that is the library / email and web site / forum servers were attacked. AVSIM is totally offline at this time and we expect to be so for some time to come. We are not able to predict when we will be back online, if we can come back at all. We will post more news as we are able to in the coming days and weeks. END

Best Regards,
Tom Allensworth

[Kiwikat]

WHAAAT!!!

No way!!! :O

[empeck]

I hate hackers :censored: :mad: :banghead:

[RyanJames170]

WHAT THE..... this is not good at all not good this is kinda like our um holly place being nuked here

[arrowmaker]

Why on earth...? :jawdrop:

[Moparmike]

Let's watch our language in here folks.

I despise those little rats with nothing better to do than tear down other people's hard work too but let's keep the language clean.

[Lionheart]

Lets take the hackers out and s---t them....

Then bring them back to life.. nurture them, and ship them to a really rough chinese prison.... Only for 5 years.. thats all..


man....

I was at AVSIM earlier this evening, and noticed some studders start to occur. It must have been right when it started.

[lefty]

Sounds like they have a pretty good idea who is culpable. Hope they get their comeuppance. This just plain meanness.

I never could understand the philosophy of the vandal.

[N400QW]

Sounds like they have a pretty good idea who is culpable. Hope they get their comeuppance. This just plain meanness.
I never could understand the philosophy of the vandal.

The philosophy is simple..destroy everything and everyone you can.
Same philosophy the terrorists used on 9/11 and every other time they've attacked people.

Time for a wake up call to the fact that the net has its own set of cyber terrorists. :banghead:

[Willy]

That's just senseless.

[Lionheart]

It trully is terrorism...

[N400QW]

That's just senseless.
Yup, straight out of the pit senseless..but then so is blowing themselves up :isadizzy:

[Wing_Z]

If you are reading this, you nasty little hacker...and who knows, maybe you are...then know this:

There are thousands of people who utterly despise you for what you have done.

May this thought cause you unease for the rest of your life.

[Lionheart]

If you are reading this, you nasty little hacker...and who knows, maybe you are...then know this:

There are thousands of people who utterly despise you for what you have done.

May this thought cause you unease for the rest of your life.

Amen....

[FengZ]

wow...that's very sad to hear.

i do hope they come back. Usually the new version will be even better than the old. There is always a positive in the negative.

we just have to be patient and wait until everything is back up.

-feng

[Paularx]

This is terible news indeed. The cracker/s are a bunch of mindless idiots and deserve the worst that the law can trow at them.

I wonder who / what organization is responsible, and hope that the guys at Avsim will have the support to get back up. - No doubt it will cost them much !

I wonder if the People at Avsim could advise Ickie what vulnerability was exploited - so that SOH may be prepared and take the appropriate precautionary measures - Were they on a Windows server or a linux server, what type of entry did the crackers use, etc.

[OBIO]

That is bad news indeed! The loss of the AVSim library is a huge blow to the flight simming community, from CFS1 all the way up to FSX. I know that a lot of what was on AVSim is available on Flightsim.com, Simviation.com and here in our library, but I know that some stuff in the AVSim library could only be found there.

And this gets me to thinking. I have been uploading exclusively to the SOH/CombatFs library. I think from here on out, I will begin uploading to Flightsim.com and Simviation.com to give my files a better chance of surviving into the future...flight simmers 20 years from now will need something to laugh at! Unless what I am uploading a sound pack based on Lawdog's files, which according to his read me files must only be uploaded on SOH/Combatfs, this seems like a good thing to do from this point on.

OBIO

[Naismith]

Words fail me, and they think they are so smart.

[RudiJG1]

Words fail me, and they think they are so smart.

I know what you mean...it's terribly frustrating. What a total waste.

[stansdds]

I don't understand why someone would pick something like AvSim. It has no strategic interest, it does not effect the economy, it's strictly a hobby site.

[hewman100]

Has the Flight Sim community done something wrong to deserve all these blows recently?

Netwings, our own server dying, and now this act of wanton vandalism?????????

[Brian_Gladden]

Oh, Man! There are files of mine on Avsim that I don't even have on my own computer anymore! I always used Avsim as my backup.

I know of a few old water filled quarry's out in the woods that wold be handy for disposing of certain... Undesirable... things.

Brian

[wombat666]

Has the Flight Sim community done something wrong to deserve all these blows recently?
Netwings, our own server dying, and now this act of wanton vandalism?????????

No, but a couple of names come readily to mind who would be capable of doing this out of plain spite.
:pop4:

[Kavehpd]

Oh, Man! There are files of mine on Avsim that I don't even have on my own computer anymore! I always used Avsim as my backup.

Ditto. :isadizzy: Though I'm also pissed off about years of forums archive.

Hope they track them down.

[Cazzie]

You know, I hate this. When things come down to this sort of vandalism, I sometimes think we had best go back to the Stone Age and work a little better on this "progress" thing!

And if found, chances are, all the basticks'll get is a wrist slap and a job! :angryfir:

Caz

[Kavehpd]

Here's the backup situation explained by Tom from Avsim temporary forum: http://linux.myalbemarle.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=13

Some have asked whether or not we had back ups. Yes, we dutifully backed up our servers every day. Unfortunately, we backed up the servers BETWEEN servers. That is, GREEN, our library server, would be backed up to PURPLE, our WEB/Forum server. That way, if one or the other failed, we would have a back up on the remaining active server. The hacker took out both servers, destroying our ability to use one or the other back up to remedy the situation.

[mike_cyul]

Cowardly thing to do, to put it mildly. Good grief. Hope Avsim is back up and running as soon as they can, and hope they find the person(s) that did this.


Mike

[huub vink]

Really sad news. I'm convinced the world will keep on turning, but the sun is just a bit less bright.

Huub

[Tim-HH]

I'm really shocked by this news :frown:

Here are a few more infos: AVSIM Temporary Home ('http://linux.myalbemarle.org/forums/index.php')




What Happened?

I want to provide everyone with a non-technical view of what took place yesterday and last night so that some of the rumors that are already starting to spread are corrected.

During the early evening yesterday, we noticed that some alarming things were starting to happen on our servers. The first sign of an issue was that some functionality disappeared on our web server. That progressed to not being able to access the web server via FTP or SSH. Finally, the web/forum server tripped offline. Next the library/email server started to exhibit issues. We went in to reboot it, and that is when it failed entirely. The partitions on both of the servers had been removed. We shut down both servers until we can get a technical member up to our Network Operations Center (NOC), and do a comprehensive inspection of the damage.

I have seen some rumors and speculation already on the various forums in the community, and I would like to make sure that everyone knows the facts. Here are some:

Early in the evening, I sent out a bulk email to all forum members letting them know that we anticipate shutting down the Web/Forum server for a period of time. About a third of the way through the process of sending that email to all 60,000 forum members, the hacker succeeded in bringing the server down. The email was did not get sent to everyone. The reason I sent the email, based on what we knew at that time, was because that a minimum, we would need to shut the web/forum server down to inspect the unit and do repairs. At the time the email was sent, we were unaware that a hack was in progress and that our system would be taken offline entirely. There were no hoaxes involved, as some have asserted.



Backups?

Some have asked whether or not we had back ups. Yes, we dutifully backed up our servers every day. Unfortunately, we backed up the servers BETWEEN servers. That is, GREEN, our library server, would be backed up to PURPLE, our WEB/Forum server. That way, if one or the other failed, we would have a back up on the remaining active server. The hacker took out both servers, destroying our ability to use one or the other back up to remedy the situation.

Greetings
Tim

[Barvan40]

I don't understand why someone would pick something like AvSim. It has no strategic interest, it does not effect the economy, it's strictly a hobby site.

But it is one of the most popular sites for this hobby. With these small minded looser it is all about impressing their like minded little looser friends.

[Henry]

Speechless !:isadizzy:
Sad Sad
H

[Ickie]

This is what happened to us 1 month ago, they put so many requests on the server it overloaded and this went on all night until the server died. It filled up the swap partition till it burst. 2 weeks after that they attacked again, but i was on top of it and blocked the attack. This 2nd attack came in aiming at my personal website ickie.net and I had to remove ickie.net and put it to sleep. It was an email attack, like 100,000 per hour, this is all placed into the swap partition and when it failed the server would stop, I cought it when it was at 99% full.
I do not know what else to do but have good backups, when hackers attack they use millions of bots on millions of computers. Just rebooting does not help, I had to re-route our IP's to fend them off. This is a temp measure, as who ever strars the attack just needs to re write their code to get the new IP's.
I feel for the people who have to re-build avsim, it is no easy task as you all know.

[hews500d]

If these "people" (and I'm being nice by calling them that) would put in as much work trying to make an honest living as they did screwing around trying to make other peoples lives miserable....


Darrell:angryfir::sniper:

[Tom Clayton]

Thanks for the info Tom. Hopefully, the twerp can be caught. Hacking a non-revenue website is (I'd imagine) a low priority in most law enforcement communities, but since the Store was also destroyed, hopefully the authorities will have the ability to actually do something that the hacker really won't like.

My own version of "punishment" would be to put him in some "Super-Max" prison and make him Bubba's cellmate! ("Huhuh - yer purdy!")

[jmig]

My sympathies go out to Tom and the rest at AVSIM. I am sure the hackers are happy at their success. I hope that the idea of Karma is in reality a fact.

May they reap what they sow.

[RL_201]

I'm sickened by the fact that this person(s) who are intelligent, would use it for such evil purposes :angryfir:. To destroy the hard work of both flightsim modellers and painters is just a act of either cowardliness or jealously. This goes for both of the :censored: hackers who attacked Avsim and her at Sim-Outhouse. I would really like to know what these jerks get by destroying people who use their free time by creating great work that brings enjoyment to great numbers of people work?. My punshiment for these slime, first, lock them in a room with of the staff of both Avsim and Sim-Outhose. :pop4:. Then, lock them in a room with all the developers and repainters whose work has been locked lost in another room :pop4:. After that, throw them in jail, with some 6'10 foot guy with lots of tatoos named "Butch" :isadizzy:. Then see if they try anything like this again. That's my two cents :a1451:

Hackers ---->:173go1: <---- Flightsim Community

[Lionheart]

It would be really nice to see hackers get some proper justice served upon them.

[cheezyflier]

it's a shame when stuff like this happens. especially to something as important as the avsim library. it reminds me of the burning of the alexandria library that we learned about in grade school. so much loss.

it was probably some kid who got ticked off in the forums and had a beef there, and decided to get revenge.





i hope they get the guy, and i hope they get it up and running. if the members there are as cool as ours, (i don't know them) they should be ok.

[Drake]

Why don't people attack wothless websites. Like Paris Hilton's or Hanna Montanna or crap like that? Whoever did it should be drug out into the street and beaten with a brick.

[aeroscout]

Thats ok has anyone tried to get into flightsim.com? getting the samemsg as Avsim:blind:

[yago9]

Nice,I,ve just learned how to upload correctly at AVSIM and now it,s all over..Can,t they just start out from scratch ? I can reuplod my files in heartbeat and probably so most of the authors.
There is no protection against this kind of attacks ? It seems unreal to me, that so much work
can be whipped out so easily.The scary thought that who did this can destroy the whole FS community by taking out our main library websites.If the story is true.But AVSIM had problems for weeks now with their library,down most of the time,then up for brif moments..Hmmm , and suddently a hacker came and finished them off for good...It could be..I don,t know.I think they just gave up.Regardless of what happend i want to thank AVSIM team for all the years of service to FS community and wish you all the best in your future endeavors !

[Dangerousdave26]

I hope that the idea of Karma is in reality a fact.

May they reap what they sow.

OH She is a wonderful Lady reset assured there will be a price to be paid.


Thats ok has anyone tried to get into flightsim.com? getting the samemsg as Avsim:blind:

No problems here at Flightsim.com but I can not dl files on my other pc. I am not sure why but this one is fine so I don't really care what its problem is.

[Roger]

It is a black day for everyone when one of the top sites is destroyed in this way. I have posted a message of condolence and support on their temporary forum. I think that the more people that do this will give Tom and his staff the heart to try to rebuild.

[rpjkw]

I mentioned I'm ready when they pass the collection plate around. I sincerely hope Tom will rebuild.

Bob

[rhumbaflappy]

OWCH!

This one hurt.

The developer community is seriously harmed here. Not only are tools and knowledge lost, but uploads by freeware designers are gone. This is planes and liveries, airports and terrain, as well as the tools to create these items... all lost. Especially harmed are the older sims, as content is lost that may not be regained.

Just when it seems little else can go wrong with the world...

Dick

[djscoo]

The SOH servers failed just like AVSIM!

Even though we haven't said anything public we believe we were hacked. As with AVSIM both our main and backup drives were corrupted and unreadable. Before doing anything ourselves we had professionals try to recover the drives and fortunately they were able to recover part of the data.

Ickie's post sounded like SOH was DDOS attacked, can that cause damage to the servers or was this the work of a skilled hacker?

[Ickie]

it was a directed attack, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, these hackers know if they can fill up the swap drive with millions of request the server will burn up trying to fulfill these requests, when the swap drive gets full the server has to rid itself of these, in doing so it corrupts the drives. our server is now 4 years old and the MB just could not hold up.

a hacking just puts code or changes your pages, either way you have to reformat because you cannot find all the hidden code left behind.

[egypt23spitfire]

.........sad sad days

...........a certain amount of our IRE and AGRESSION should be aimed at M$SOFT for allowing an operating system where a primary or secondary partition can be destroyed so easy.
....all primary partitions should be protected with BLOWFISH or RIJNDAEL as standard
....a bog standard bootini virus or polymorph worm will destroy tables on a hardrive (happened to me a cupla times) and had to extract files one ot a time (10GB plus is a lot of damn work ,so the idea of what AVSIM would have to do is enomous
...............i say compost em

[crashaz]

I am going to bet that is not an Microsoft issue egypt. For running forums... most site use Linux. I am sure the SOH admins can answer for this site but I know Avsim is a not MS setup.

Now...

To quote a famous expression:
'What in the wide wide world of sports is goin on here!!'


The flightsim community is taking a beating this year! First the Aces news and now the fan websites are being attacked and brought down!!

Lets face it folks.... a bad bad year for our favorite hobby.

The loss of Avsim is huuuge!! Tom and company have done such a great job of hosting the conventions and bringing fans and developers together! I am angry to hear of the attack and these things happening to good people. There and of course here at our own home.

For those saying well we have to start posting again.. yes not too big of a hit.

However the developer threads... modeling,scenery,weather.....anything SDK related... is lost! All that ruminating and troubleshooting gone. These hackers have destroyed intellectual property!! Putting a monetary value to it... as I am sure some here know... would be extremely high... all of that work put in by developers to find something new or fix a bug. Gone!

Not to mention the libraries! Everyone is effected by that as one less place to go for our favorite downloads.

Scarier as Rhumba notes.... there is FS98, CFS1 and CFS2 files never to be replaced... it's been too long ago... don't think I even have my original PHP1 release that we uploaded to Avsim in 2001. I can rebuild our Task Force 16 scenery for FS9 ... I think. Man I have to go back and relearn platforms for FS9 SDK for carrier decks.

Our community is being destroyed!

If not by the economy (Aces) then by malicious hackers attacking the very places where we come to meet and hang together!

Sad...angry... shocked.

A bad year for FS.

To use another saying that is bandied about nowdays.....


Hopefully we have hit bottom.

[Dangerousdave26]

Of course that would be for the courts to decide but read here.

http://linux.myalbemarle.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=41

egypt

crashaz is correct the server was a linux not an MS server. You can't fault any manufacturer of an OS for this one. The prime suspect seems to have had the keys.

[Ickie]

if someone can contact them at avsim, tell them I will give them a hand if they want it.

[crashaz]

if someone can contact them at avsim, tell them I will give them a hand if they want it.


Ok will pass it on Ickie!:wavey:

[huub vink]

Does anyone has an idea who these hackers are? I can't imagine that somebody actually ruins other men's work just for fun. :isadizzy:

Huub

[Odie]

Sad state of affairs....

You'd think that with the advancement of technology, there would be the appreciation of other folk's efforts to provide the resources and access for all instead of this kind of empty-headed behavior.

[Dangerousdave26]

Does anyone has an idea who these hackers are? I can't imagine that somebody actually ruins other men's work just for fun. :isadizzy:

Huub

Huub look two or three posts above you someone pointed the way to a thread that discusses it. ROR


Of course that would be for the courts to decide but read here.

http://linux.myalbemarle.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=41



I know nobody reads the posts in the thread once it goes past two pages. :icon_lol:

[n4gix]

However the developer threads... modeling,scenery,weather.....anything SDK related... is lost! All that ruminating and troubleshooting gone. These hackers have destroyed intellectual property!! Putting a monetary value to it... as I am sure some here know... would be extremely high... all of that work put in by developers to find something new or fix a bug. Gone!

Precisely! The loss of 12 years worth of accumulated wisdom in just the "Aircraft and Panel Design" forum alone is a tragedy. There's hardly a day over the past 10 years I haven't spent time researching something modeling or gauge programming related there...

Many of the people who contributed the most to the knowledge base are now beyond caring about mundane, earthly things, having earned their :engel016:...

One such individual was Ron Friemuth, who was one of only a scant handful who'd managed to truly crack the arcane secrets of the FDE (.air file). All of his contributions are now :pop4:

[Railrunner130]

First off, I want to correct one thing Ron Hamilton mentioned- these websites aren't competitors, their part of a family.

This is clearly an act of terrorism and should be treated as such. I'm sure the FBI should be involved in this. I hope they fry the responsible individual(s) responsible.

Please let Tom know that we are all with him and if there is anything that we can do, pleasea don't hesitate to let us know.

[w6kd]

I agree Bill...someone over there was saying that the library was all-important, but most of what was in the library is still out there, distributed amongst the thousands of users' computers, waiting to be re-collected. There is no record of the thousands of conversations that have been key to solving so many problems.

I do have to say that I'm stunned that there was no offline backup. I would have hoped that losing the AvHistory.org forums and all those precious postings on the inner working of the FDE by Ron Freimuth and others would have highlighted the enduring importance of those discussions enough to keep a safe archive somewhere. Hopefully, we'll be able to get some or all of it back with some fancy disk forensics.

Tom hired a new guy to build a new library system, gave him root access, and soon thereafter discovered that the AVSIM forum's e-mail database had been harvested to send spam ads from another one of his sites. They fired him, and then hours later, AVSIM gets vaporized just as they're bringing the new system online. I'm sure the two are unrelated...

Bob Scott
Colonel, USAF (ret)
ATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V
Colorado Springs, CO

[N400QW]

"First off, I want to correct one thing Ron Hamilton mentioned- these websites aren't competitors, their part of a family."

Railrunner:

To clarify, I received the email from Tom last evening asking to assist in getting the news out.

I quoted Tom exactly. If you reread the message you will note that Tom was referring to Francois and Nels.

I do happen to know that the three parties mentioned have recently buried the hatchet and a quick look at Simflight.com and Flightsim.com will confirm this for you. :mixedsmi:

[N2056]

As a developer and long time user of the Avsim forums for many years I am stunned at the incredible amount of knowledge that the development community has lost. Bill's observation that many of those knowledge sources are no longer with us makes it that much harder to comprehend...truly a sad day here! :frown:

The saddest part has to do with the saga that appears to be unfolding regarding the responsible party...and as much as I try to avoid this sort of thing any of you guys that were there in the last few days might know what I am talking about. I watched it evolve in the Hanger forum before Avsim was killed. Wade through the link that Dangerousdave provided above...:eek:

[nearmiss]

Backup, backup & backup

We've all heard it a zillion times.

That applies to webservers as well

[airfighterjohn]

Been gone on vacation and just heard about this--I really hope they can do something about it--AVSIM has been one of my favorite sites since FS98. I have MANY of their FS9 and FSX planes and panels on cd and dvd--literally hundreds. If Tom is interested I can burn some copies off and send them to him...

[Tim-HH]

Even BBC reports about the attack: >BBC News: Hackers 'destroy' flight sim site< ('http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8049780.stm')

Greetings
Tim

[Lateral-G]

Does anyone has an idea who these hackers are? I can't imagine that somebody actually ruins other men's work just for fun. :isadizzy:

Huub

Believe it Huub. There are plenty of people in this world that want nothing more than to destroy what others have created and derive much joy in doing so.

As Alfred said in the last batman movie "some men just want to watch the world burn"

-G-

[srgalahad]

Just a thought, but now the instigator can wander through all the sim websites and get a feeling for how 'successful' and 'powerful' they were.

We DO love to vent -and probably need it- but like any terrorist act, the effect is gauged by how much response there is among the public.
How many people are talking about it? agonizing over it? expressing fear of it spreading or becoming 'personally dangerous'? What speculation is there about the cause, reasons, sources?

Is this terrorism? In many ways it is. An unexpected and unprovoked attack on a 'soft' target- on a village, social gathering or community by someone with a hidden agenda and no visible identity is usually seen today as an act of terrorism.

I'm not advocating silence on the issue. It needs to be discussed and help people be informed. However, we should all be cognizant of what we say (and speculate) and bear in mind that the desire of terrorists is to create unrest and distract resources from the positive things in life. In today's world there are sociopaths who get their jollys from disturbing 'normal life' and are content to revel in the upheaval it causes without waving a flag to identify themselves. I'm sure that in some dark "cyber-corner" there are glasses hoisted to celebrate a "victory" but it will only be that if the damage is not repaired and the despair lives on without repercussions.

Let those who can analyze the events do so, and let the rest of us get to clearing the rubble and rebuilding with our eyes set on the positives while being prepared to deter further senseless acts.

Non illegitimus carborundum

Rob

[JimC1702]

Excellent post, Rob!

Jim

[Cowboy1968]

If Avsim is totally forced down, it will be a lose to our community that will be hard to recover from. The extensive library and wealth of technical info will be hard to replace. We can't afford these losses. Our resources drop on there own as it is......they dont need help.

lets pray they leave Flight-sim alone.........and they decide to concentrate on that pirate site we all in the CFS2 world love to hate.

[extrudinator]

"All major crime is an inside job."

Livestock detective Henry Beige (Slim Pickens) in the movie "Rancho Deluxe."

[icarus]

the real crime i think is not having a valid backup solution in 2009.......if you ever manage a server there are tons of attack every days...so also if your server never go down it is always better have two backup solutions one on another server and one on a local server or external disk. then they can hack you...you will not lost nothing.

[Ridge]

Wow, I just read about this...its a shock...I do wonder how they managed to hack two servers and delete or corrupt all the data on both...we are talking about Tetrabytes of data...it could take days to delete the inventories of those servers over the web. I really do wonder if it was a physical attack on the boxes...

[GT182]

I'm glad I got a bunch of stuff downloaded and saved from Avsim.

And on that note.......

Why can't everyone that's downloaded from Avsim and still has all their downloads, send them back to reload on the server? I'm sure everything they had is saved out there somewhere. It would be one h3ll of a job to sort it all out and put it back on the servers, but it looks to be the only way to get things back to Avsim.

[Ridge]

How many people keep the zip files after installing? My guess is next to none.

Somewhere around here I might have a CD full of my favorite addons for CFS2, but they are from Netwings...

[williamtong]

more hackers.....great, just what the world needs. as if iran and north korea arn't problems enough!

[Lateral-G]

How many people keep the zip files after installing? My guess is next to none.


I save every zip file I download...just in case.

-G-

[aceman0x]

mmm that is a real problem, however avisim had problems in it's library since some moths ago, i hadn't could download something since that time

[GT182]

I save every zip file I download...just in case.

-G-

Same here. Unless it's something that's been updated, but then again it'll still be on a CD or DVD someplace.

[jmig]

Same here. Unless it's something that's been updated, but then again it'll still be on a CD or DVD someplace.

Yeah, but can you find them when you need then? :jump:

[GT182]

Yeah, but can you find them when you need then? :jump:

Shhhhh, I know that part doesn't always work John..... CRS. LOL