Ships, frame rates, and DCG

[Ettico]

As boring as the old stock ships have become, it remains a fact that the stockers produce much higher frame rates than addon ships. It's just a sad fact of life in the CFS2 universe. Using stock ships instead of addons doubles my frame rates. Even the more frame friendly addons put a hit on the frame rates compared to the corresponding stocker. If I create a formation of all addon ships in a mission, my frame rates sometimes drop into the high teens when the ships are in view, even if there is nothing else in the mission.

You guys with the super fast PC's and graphics cards don't need to worry about it, but I've decided that I need to worry about it.

The stock ships aren't bad. They look a little blocky up close. They could use some snazzy camo paint and a little tweaking of the DP's. For example, "priority" and "hardness" calls are a must for any sea battle involving attacking aircraft - whether it's a DCG mission or not. Otherwise, attacking AI aircraft will attack in an extremely foolish manner, going after the smaller ships first, only going after the capital ships after they've depleted the capital ships' support group. Pen32win has worked up a good set of priority and hardness calls for different classes of ships.

Many of the smaller, less detailed addon ships work fine as far as frame rates. The only ships actually absent from the stock stable are CVL's, CVE's, DE's, and light anti-aircraft cruisers, and there are good addons available in these categories.

It's also a sad fact of life that DCG only reads the first 8 characters of a ship's folder name, which means DCG is unable to distinguish between ships in some cases. For example, "SHA_INDIANA" and "SHA_INDIANAPOLIS" are indistinguishable to DCG. Using these ship names in a DCG campaign results in all of them showing up as battleships. So I've created renamed versions of those stock ships, named BB_US and CA_US, for use in DCG campaigns. I've also found it necessary to rename several of the better addon ships, particularly the ones that start with something like "VN_USS_***". That prefix takes up 7 characters of the readable 8 characters. In most cases the first character of the actual ship name allows DCG to distinguish it, but not necessarily always.

In light of all the above, I've decided to create a special stable of ships, specifically for use with DCG - mostly stockers with slightly modified DP's and maybe better paint jobs. There's nothing really difficult about this, but I've already caused myself some unnecessary toil and trouble in the process of converting the stock ESSEX and HIRYU carriers. Take my advice. If you rename a ship, be very careful. Proofread everything you do. If you get a "Failed to initialize the database" error after renaming a ship, you'll know the cause, even if you don't immediately find the problem.

But what really blew me away was when my security software suddenly decided "cfs2.exe" was "riskware", charged it with a crime and delivered a "verdict"...:isadizzy: What the....and they were getting along so well...

It was a frame, I tell you. "cfs2.exe" was not guilty.:rolleyes:

[Dirtman]

Sounds like you need some ships built in LOD - problem solved?

Besides ... Collin needs something to occupy his time & keep him outta trouble! :violent:

:d :d :eek:

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[Ettico]

Sounds like you need some ships built in LOD - problem solved?

Besides ... Collin needs something to occupy his time & keep him outta trouble! :violent:

:d :d :eek:

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Yep. A little LOD goes a long way.:icon_lol:

[p14u2nv]

I haven't had much luck at all with anything concerning the SHIP folder. I have had to go back to stock shipping and stay there. Gun shy maybe but after reinstalling CFS2 for the upteenth time I just gave up. What I was doing though was saving files such as AIRCRAFT, EFFECTS, SOUND etc to move back into a fresh install and save at least part of the time reinstalling everything.

You might know all this I'm sure but as far as frame rates what I do before starting CFS2 was to reboot and then go into Task Manager and turn off all those unnecessary programs using up resources (other than system files I mean) and I then started to use a program to do that for me and after I was through flying it would turn everything back on. I now use a program called AlacrityPC. it's free and it works even better as this one will turn off the Win shell/wallpaper/desktop etc. I also set my frame rates at 20 and sight distance to no more than 30 miles I think it is. I also turn off the clouds some times. With all that done I have approx. 1.5 GB ran free and I manage around 25-30 fps consistantly. I have a laptop for now, 1.7 Intel, 2 GB ram, 512 integrated graphics...I've been using this about 3 years now...until I get my new pc next week sometime that is! :bump:

[Ettico]

I haven't had much luck at all with anything concerning the SHIP folder. I have had to go back to stock shipping and stay there. Gun shy maybe but after reinstalling CFS2 for the upteenth time I just gave up. What I was doing though was saving files such as AIRCRAFT, EFFECTS, SOUND etc to move back into a fresh install and save at least part of the time reinstalling everything.

You might know all this I'm sure but as far as frame rates what I do before starting CFS2 was to reboot and then go into Task Manager and turn off all those unnecessary programs using up resources (other than system files I mean) and I then started to use a program to do that for me and after I was through flying it would turn everything back on. I now use a program called AlacrityPC. it's free and it works even better as this one will turn off the Win shell/wallpaper/desktop etc. I also set my frame rates at 20 and sight distance to no more than 30 miles I think it is. I also turn off the clouds some times. With all that done I have approx. 1.5 GB ran free and I manage around 25-30 fps consistantly. I have a laptop for now, 1.7 Intel, 2 GB ram, 512 integrated graphics...I've been using this about 3 years now...until I get my new pc next week sometime that is! :bump:

p14u2nv,

Thanks for the tip on the optimization program. I downloaded it and I've been checking it out. I think it makes a difference.

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Translate please... what is DCG?

[Talon]

Translate please... what is DCG?

Dynamic Campaign Generator.It makes campaign missions for you.I've used it since it came out.You can even make your own campaign with it.I've made a few campaigns with it over the years.

Here's a link and it also has the DCG for IL2

http://www.lowengrin.com/news.php


Talon

[Tango_Romeo]

...spreading your addon ships into a realistic formation. That will help immensely with the FPS. Most folks have their ships packed together like sardines....like a Navy photo op. This is particularly effective with LOD models, but also works with non-LOD. :ernae:

You're running into the great buggaboo: the balance between detail and playability. :kilroy:

And here at the outhouse we have the two extremes.....folks who fly combat missions in this combat sim (who will kill for an extra 10FPS), and the scale modelers/film-makers (who will gladly accept a slideshow in return for a pretty picture). :bump:

[Ettico]

...spreading your addon ships into a realistic formation. That will help immensely with the FPS. Most folks have their ships packed together like sardines....like a Navy photo op. This is particularly effective with LOD models, but also works with non-LOD. :ernae:

You're running into the great buggaboo: the balance between detail and playability. :kilroy:

And here at the outhouse we have the two extremes.....folks who fly combat missions in this combat sim (who will kill for an extra 10FPS), and the scale modelers/film-makers (who will gladly accept a slideshow in return for a pretty picture). :bump:

Hi Tango,

For my own personal purposes, I plan to stick with mostly stock ships for my DCG campaigns. It's not that difficult for players to write their own ships into a DCG campaign - just change the ship folder names in the "ships" file. But the thing is, a formation of stock ships barely affects my frame rates at all.

I've made repainted and renamed versions of the stock Essex class carrier to include Hornet, Wasp, Intrepid, Franklin, and Yorktown. I've also made separate DCG versions of the stock Enterprise, the stock battleship, and the stock cruiser, with blue decks, superstructures, and slightly modified DP's . I've also converted the stock Hiryu into renditions of Shokaku and Zuikaku. The only non-stock addons I currently have in the starting lineup are the afvn_atlanta CLAA and the Japanese Marianas carriers.

Your idea of spreading the ship formations is a good one.:iidea: I can spread the DCG ship formations with AIRBOSS, same as I did with the air formations. The only question I can think of regarding spreading the ship formations is whether it will adversely affect AA protection of the carriers in the middle of the formations. But for all I know, spreading the formations might even help with that. More spread out ships would start shooting sooner as attacking aircraft approach.

I'm currently working on the next phase of AIRBOSS, so I can include your idea in it. The AIRBOSS phase I'm working on now will be able to manage multiple-phased campaigns of up to 3 phases, each phase with different front lines, infrastructures, and task force waypoint paths. The first test campaign will have the Third Fleet advancing west through the Central Pacific islands toward the Philippines, while the Seventh Fleet advances north toward the same objective. The Japanese will be playing defense, with the Japanese carrier fleet harassing and the Japanese battleship forces lurking in the Phillipine straits. More or less a replay of the island hopping campaign with some DCG uncertainty added.

The quality of the code I'm writing is questionable, but the task is do-able.:d My only criterion is whether it works or not. I don't care how inefficiently the code grinds out the task, as long as the end result works. If it all comes to fruition, it will be adaptable to land based campaigns as well.

[Tango_Romeo]

'The only question I can think of regarding spreading the ship formations is whether it will adversely affect AA protection of the carriers in the middle of the formations. But for all I know, spreading the formations might even help with that. More spread out ships would start shooting sooner as attacking aircraft approach.'

Spreading them can enhance AAA effectiveness......5" DPs have a range of 14,000 yards.

Actually, the ship DPs we have are a total joke as far as accuracy is concerned. They do no have anywhere near the proper number of guns that the actual ships carried. :isadizzy:

I did an accurate original DP for Collin's little escort carrier, and only 1 out of 10 attacking aircraft will survive making a pass at her. This would make the game entirely too difficult(realistic) for aircraft. :kilroy:

[Ettico]

I did an accurate original DP for Collin's little escort carrier, and only 1 out of 10 attacking aircraft will survive making a pass at her. This would make the game entirely too difficult(realistic) for aircraft. :kilroy:

I'm not sure which one that is, but I may have had a run-in with her. After downloading a CVE, I made a test mission to check it out. Turned out to be a nasty little bugger with no sense of humor whatsoever. I just wanted to see if one torpedo would sink it, but I never got the chance. I made several runs at it, all ending with me losing several parts of my ride, then my virtual life.:bump:

[Tango_Romeo]

I'm not sure which one that is, but I may have had a run-in with her. After downloading a CVE, I made a test mission to check it out. Turned out to be a nasty little bugger with no sense of humor whatsoever. I just wanted to see if one torpedo would sink it, but I never got the chance. I made several runs at it, all ending with me losing several parts of my ride, then my virtual life.:bump:

...the USS Sicily over at CG's Shipyard. :engel016:

[Shadow Wolf 07]

'The only question I can think of regarding spreading the ship formations is whether it will adversely affect AA protection of the carriers in the middle of the formations. But for all I know, spreading the formations might even help with that. More spread out ships would start shooting sooner as attacking aircraft approach.'

Spreading them can enhance AAA effectiveness......5" DPs have a range of 14,000 yards.

Actually, the ship DPs we have are a total joke as far as accuracy is concerned. They do no have anywhere near the proper number of guns that the actual ships carried. :isadizzy:

I did an accurate original DP for Collin's little escort carrier, and only 1 out of 10 attacking aircraft will survive making a pass at her. This would make the game entirely too difficult(realistic) for aircraft. :kilroy:

I place mine from 1/2 to a mile apart, layered, with CVs and BBs in the center, then cruisers, then DDs and (for the IJN) Torpedo boats for pickets. It gives a fairly dense but survivable AA umbrella. Usios AA dps are ruthless! :pop4:

[miamieagle]

I think and believe that most of us want reasitic but very playable missions. Missions that are not only fuctional and reasitic but that you have a good chance of surviving!

[Ettico]

I think and believe that most of us want reasitic but very playable missions. Missions that are not only fuctional and reasitic but that you have a good chance of surviving!

I agree. Obviously some people had to survive the battles, or the war would have been over in a month. And a virtual campaign doesn't last long if your virtual self gets killed in the first mission.

Also, as far as carrier battles go, I find that if a mission has more than 2 carriers, it is necessary to reduce the number of aircraft carried by each carrier down to 1/2 to 1/3 the number of planes the carriers actually carried, or you end up with an overloaded mission. So I think the bombers need to be a bit more effective and the AA a bit less effective to balance things out.

[Talon]

Ettico

The ships Shokaku,Zuikaku are the stock Hiryu and Junyo is the stock Junyo in the Marianas carrier package.The others are the VN Shoho.I did the repaints of them.I also made a Shokaku and Zuikaku for 1942 from he stock Hiryu and I think it's in my Solomon carriers missions but not sure.It may be in my Coral Sea missions.

When I do DCG Carrier Campaigns I mix in different ships with the stock ships without to much Frame rate drop.

I forget the address but there is a nice Taiho,Chitose,Junyo,Zuiho that are pretty frame friendly.there's a couple other carriers there also.

I was trying to get Crashaz to release the new N.Carolina and S.Dakota a while back.


Talon

[oldwheat]

Ettico

The ships Shokaku,Zuikaku are the stock Hiryu and Junyo is the stock Junyo in the Marianas carrier package.The others are the VN Shoho.I did the repaints of them.I also made a Shokaku and Zuikaku for 1942 from he stock Hiryu and I think it's in my Solomon carriers missions but not sure.It may be in my Coral Sea missions.

When I do DCG Carrier Campaigns I mix in different ships with the stock ships without to much Frame rate drop.

I forget the address but there is a nice Taiho,Chitose,Junyo,Zuiho that are pretty frame friendly.there's a couple other carriers there also.

I was trying to get Crashaz to release the new N.Carolina and S.Dakota a while back.


Talon

Is it this site? http://www.geocities.jp/mtyjr101/index.htm

[Ettico]

Ettico

The ships Shokaku,Zuikaku are the stock Hiryu and Junyo is the stock Junyo in the Marianas carrier package.The others are the VN Shoho.I did the repaints of them.I also made a Shokaku and Zuikaku for 1942 from he stock Hiryu and I think it's in my Solomon carriers missions but not sure.It may be in my Coral Sea missions.

When I do DCG Carrier Campaigns I mix in different ships with the stock ships without to much Frame rate drop.

I forget the address but there is a nice Taiho,Chitose,Junyo,Zuiho that are pretty frame friendly.there's a couple other carriers there also.

I was trying to get Crashaz to release the new N.Carolina and S.Dakota a while back.


Talon

Thanks, Talon.

I have all the addon carriers you mention and plan to use them. I think I got all of them from the VN_Marianas_Carriers package. I would like to take a look at your Shokaku and Zuikaku. I'll see if I can find them.

I have the vn_north_carolina, but I haven't really checked out it's frame hit yet. I think the VN_Cleveland will work for a CL.

[Tango_Romeo]

...playability is the object, and that is hard to achieve with realistic AAA armament within the sim. :kilroy:

HOWEVER, any AAA armament can be overcome successfully, if attacks by mulitiple flights of torpedo and dive bombers with good fighter cover are properly coordinated. :jump:

[Dirtman]

Gentlemen, lets get practical & realistic here: I love the detail on Usio's ships .. they look so real & the detail is incredible ... BUT - for use in CFS2 (in any quantity more than a few) they just kill the framerates .... and what do you gain except a pretty slideshow?

You are diving from 15,000 ft. (can't really see the detail) then when you're close enough to see those beautiful teak decks (and about to modify them with a 1000lb bomb) the slideshow begins, ruining your aim & timing. Kind of a big bummer eh?

Dropping a torp is similar but at 150kts; yes the stock ships look a bit plain ..... but yer gonna sink them anyhow! Using Usio's ships isn't too bad in this scenario ... until you pull up over the target ship, see the next ship & the slideshow begins once again. .....

I just graduated to a 256MB vid card from a 32MB GPU .... the basic detail in CFS2 has increased 1000% but I can still get into "slideshow mode" occasionally; but for the vast majority of the time the new vid card works fine.

Perhaps someday when we all have 4GB (yes "gig") vid cards then this will no longer be a problem. But for today & the near future we must use what works best.

As Tango said: all the stock ship dp's are a joke & I strongly agree but Pen32win made us a whole set of moded & much more realistic ship dp's that work GREAT! ..... use them & you'll see (I just hated it when the stock non-combat ships would "run away" at the 1st sign of trouble & sail over the land-masses) That & the volume of AA fire have been more realisticaly modeled plus other key physical elements.

Remember that CFS2 is all about the thrill & excitment of aerial combat. Bombs, bullets & danger is why we fly it.
If you want extreme detail; then FS9 or FSX is for you.

Thanks for reading what I have written .... now I'll stop taking my meds & return to my more natural: "state of insanity". :eek:

Spank You All ..... Very MUCH!

:isadizzy: :isadizzy: :isadizzy:

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[Shadow Wolf 07]

"(I just hated it when the stock non-combat ships would "run away" at the 1st sign of trouble & sail over the land-masses)" That is because as soon as they are spawned, they immediately turn north at top speed, no matter what you set in MB unless they have GUNSTATION entries. Nibbio/Nanni also has a cure for that which puts AA guns on the non-combatants.

[Rami]

Pen32Win also did a much larger pack of 150 ships: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/downloads/download.php?lloc=downloads&FileID=8532

[Dirtman]

Nibbio/Nanni also has a cure for that which puts AA guns on the non-combatants.

I agree but they are older files.

Pen32Win's are newer & more intricate therefore IMHO operate better.

He has also added the modified dp entries & effects from N & N (wakes, flotsam/debris etc.) plus his mods.

This is why Pen32Win's ship dp package is better. (includes all stocks ships, VN & Usio's too!) :applause: :applause: :applause:

Also Blue Devil has done extensive dp mods for some of the combatant ships which model the gun operation with outstanding accuracy.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

So take yer pick!

:d :d :eek:
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[Ettico]

Roger on the Pen32win DP's.

If a Pen32win DP exists for a ship, you should use it. If nothing else, the "priority" and "hardness" calls cause the Gomer AI aircraft to attack ship formations more correctly and with greater determination.

Particularly in carrier battles, you do not have the time or the resources to have your bombers going after destroyers when they should be attacking carriers. They need to get down to it, and quickly. Carriers will nail your virtual hide to the wall if you do not deal with them.:icon_lol:

[crashaz]

Besides.. with the exception of the Iowa class BB and FLetcher class DD.... VN ships have usually more fps and greater details... gotta love that GMAX.

[Shadow Wolf 07]

"Particularly in carrier battles, you do not have the time or the resources to have your bombers going after destroyers when they should be attacking carriers. They need to get down to it, and quickly. Carriers will nail your virtual hide to the wall if you do not deal with them."

In Mission Builder, be sure to set waypoints of your attacking AI and designate "attack with..." on the ship or waypoint of the ship you want attacked. I usually set a second "attack with all weapons" on a secondary target or in the open sea for targets of opportunity. That way if a torpedo flight (for example) finds its primary target already destroyed, the secondary gets zapped. You can designate up to 2 targets in MB. This works well for me 100% of the time (unless the buggers get shot down).

I didn't know Pen32win's dps were set up to handle nibbio's effects. I'll have to go back and fix the stock ships as well as the downloads. Thanks for the tip. :ernae:

[Ettico]

"Particularly in carrier battles, you do not have the time or the resources to have your bombers going after destroyers when they should be attacking carriers. They need to get down to it, and quickly. Carriers will nail your virtual hide to the wall if you do not deal with them."

In Mission Builder, be sure to set waypoints of your attacking AI and designate "attack with..." on the ship or waypoint of the ship you want attacked. I usually set a second "attack with all weapons" on a secondary target or in the open sea for targets of opportunity. That way if a torpedo flight (for example) finds its primary target already destroyed, the secondary gets zapped. You can designate up to 2 targets in MB. This works well for me 100% of the time (unless the buggers get shot down).

I didn't know Pen32win's dps were set up to handle nibbio's effects. I'll have to go back and fix the stock ships as well as the downloads. Thanks for the tip. :ernae:

My major project right now is getting DCG to create more realistic carrier-based campaign missions. I've found that the "priority" and "hardness" calls Pen32win includes in his ship DP's work wonders to that effect.

When I look at a DCG mission, I can see that the bombers are targeted on the carriers. But I've also noticed, more than once, when I wasn't using the "priority" and "hardness" calls, that the bombers did not attack the carriers until they had destroyed all the supporting ships. I have no idea why. Maybe it was an earlier version of DCG, I don't exactly remember. But I do know that the "priority" and "hardness" calls draw the bombers to the capital ships like magnets. You probably wouldn't even have to have them targeted on the big ships.

i've also noticed, with Pen's DP's, bombers taking out particularly troublesome AA cruisers. They must have done this on their own, because, presumably, they were targeted on the carriers.