PirateBay founders jailed

[shackleton_boy]

fantastic news!


STOCKHOLM, Sweden (CNN) -- Four men behind a Swedish file-sharing Web site used by millions to exchange movies and music have been jailed for a year for collaborating to violate copyright law in a landmark court verdict in Stockholm.
A Pirate Bay server, confiscated by police last year, on display in Stockholm's Technical Museum.

The four defendants -- Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm Warg, Peter Sunde Kolmisoppi and Carl Lundstrom, three founders and one patron of The Pirate Bay -- were also ordered to pay 30 million kronor ($3.6 million) in damages to several major media companies including Warner Brothers, Columbia, Twentieth Century Fox, Sony BMG and EMI.

The Pirate Bay allows users to exchange files including movies, music, games and software, but does not host the files itself. It claims more than 3.5 million registered users.

It has been in the crosshairs of the entertainment industry and law enforcement for years and was raided by Swedish police in 2006.

Its owners have consistently shrugged off legal threats, posting letters from entertainment industry lawyers on their Web site with mocking responses.

When Dreamworks studio demanded that the site act over file-sharing of Dreamworks' movie "Shrek 2," The Pirate Bay threatened to sue for harassment and lodge a formal complaint "for sending frivolous legal threats."

"It is the opinion of us and our lawyers that you are ... morons," the response continued, suggesting that studio representatives perform a sexual act. The response closed with an obscenity.

Site owners dismissed the effects of the police raid, saying the site had been down longer on other occasions due to illness or drunkenness than when "the U.S. and Swedish government forces the police to steal our servers ... yawn."
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But Magnus Eriksson, who in 2003 co-founded the "loosely formed group of theorists, artists and programmers" that spawned The Pirate Bay, says there are serious issues at stake.

He does not think copyrighted material should be free for everyone, "but that it already is."

"The control over what people communicate is lost and we have to adapt to this new state of things," he said via e-mail. "To monitor all communications, fight all new digital technologies and spread a culture of fear in what should be a free and open communication network is not a desirable option."

Entertainment companies claim The Pirate Bay has hurt their box office profits, part of an annual loss the Motion Picture Association of America claims to be about $6 billion a year worldwide.

"Hollywood studios are businesses. They're there to make money," said association lawyer Thomas Dillon. "It costs $100 million to make a feature film, so of course they're quite keen to get some back. So I don't accept this argument that there's some benefit to culture in allowing people to make copies of commercial films and getting them for free."

Monique Wadsted, a Swedish lawyer for the MPAA, said The Pirate Bay was also harming individual artists.

A victory for the entertainment companies "will, of course, be for all authors all around the world, some kind of redress... because what is going on now is actually a plundering of the author's works," she said via e-mail.

"If some authors find it good to market their products using file-sharing or whatever, they are free to do that," she added. "But that is not what is happening at the moment. What's happening at the moment is that authors' and rights holders' works are file-shared against their will and that is not acceptable."

She argued that The Pirate Bay "is specifically tailored for copyright infringement."

The prosecution claims the site provides a search engine that helps people find and download copyrighted material including movies, music and games -- in effect, enabling copyright theft.

The site's supporters say they're doing nothing wrong under Swedish law because the site doesn't actually put the copyrighted material on the Web site.

Internet piracy and illegal downloading from peer-to-peer systems are some of the biggest piracy problems in Europe, the MPAA argues.

Internet piracy is growing at a faster rate in Europe than anywhere else in the world, the MPAA says, because of increased broadband use, weak laws, and lenient public perceptions.

Sweden's official efforts to battle online piracy have been weak, the MPAA says.

Eriksson, the co-founder of the group that led to The Pirate Bay, says the MPAA's argument that file-sharing hurts movie studio revenues is "nonsense."

"Cinema is doing better than ever," he said by e-mail. "They only claim this because they calculate losses by looking at the number of downloads and imagining that all of them would have been a purchase if they hadn't been downloaded first."

Eriksson said what was at stake in the Swedish courtroom was the future of the Internet itself.

"The Internet revolution meant that we created a global network where any digital entity could connect and exchange information with any other," he said. "Anti-piracy efforts must be seen in the light of a counter-revolution against this that goes all the way to the very infrastructure of the net."

He suggested that even if The Pirate Bay is convicted of facilitating making works public through its indexing service, which he does not expect, Internet piracy will not stop.
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"The prosecution can't understand that The Pirate Bay is just one stratification of a social and technological change that is decentralized," he said.

"Piracy does not have a head that you can cut off, and The Pirate Bay is just a technology allowing communication, a part of the Internet infrastructure."

[Quixoticish]

Sadly it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. I imagine that while Piratebay has just been picked up by the media there will be hundreds of other places for people to pick up their torrents, people will just move elsewhere. :frown:

[stansdds]

I do not approve of piracy in any form. Kudos to Sweden for finally taking action.

[wombat666]

A mere slap over the wrist.
Of course, the next step will be an appeal which will drag the case out for many months, in the meantime it's 'business as usual' for TPB!

:173go1:

[Alexraptor]

I think its a good thing to try to come down hard on Piracy, but frankly i think they are going about it all wrong.
Yes there are a lot of illegal/pirated files in circulation on torrent trackers like Pirate Bay.... BUT!..... there is also hundreds of thousands of perfectly 100% legal files in circulation as well.

Torrents are pretty much an ideal filesystem when you are dealing with massive files like mods for other games, it makes it possible to distribute massive files without having to host it ones own server and suck up space and bandwidth when downloaded.

I do not condone piracy, but my thoughts are attack the criminals and not the technology.

[MCDesigns]

While I am thrilled, a year in jail is a slap on the wrist. Should have had a public execution, would be more fitting. To bad they can't track all the users that d/led the illegal material since they are all accomplices.

[RyanJames170]

:woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::amen::amen::amen::a men::ernae::ernae: SWWWEEEETTTTT

[Prowler1111]

I want my part of that 3 million!!!......

[Quixoticish]

Incidentally this will do nothing to actually shut down the physical Pirate Bay site by the way, it's hosted outside of Sweden by parties unknown and even those being prosecuted now don't know who or how to have it shut down.

So all in all they've made a lot of noise, jailed some people, lined the pockets of some huge companies (who are probably just as crooked as the pirates) yet they've not shut down the website, not stopped torrent sharing and not helped out any smaller companies who really have lost out.

[Z-PurpleBubble]

Incidentally this will do nothing to actually shut down the physical Pirate Bay site by the way, it's hosted outside of Sweden by parties unknown and even those being prosecuted now don't know who or how to have it shut down.

So all in all they've made a lot of noise, jailed some people, lined the pockets of some huge companies (who are probably just as crooked as the pirates) yet they've not shut down the website, not stopped torrent sharing and not helped out any smaller companies who really have lost out.

Moreover, TPB will just appeal and if necessary take it to the european courts.

The really sad thing about this is that the torrent technology is getting a lot of bad publicity, and so is free speech on the internet.

And a few companies just got richer, but the designers over here will not see a cent coming their way, only a few rich b**ches.

PB

[GT182]

Hats off to Sweden. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/GT182/Thumbup.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/GT182/sigpic336_1.gif

Sadly tho it only slows pirating down just a tad. There are other sites that continue and haven't even been stopped, let alone looked at. I know of one that I've reported several times and it still flourishes unabated. One year in jail is a vacation for these bozos. Once out they more than likely start all over again.

[Prowler1111]

...to put things in context, you really don´t need TPB, ithas contaminated the whole internet, not to mention the "casual Robin Hoods"(MFers!!) who just upload the file via rapidshare or megaupload and presto...

Prowler

[Z-PurpleBubble]

They're not in jail, didn't even have to pay bail, they are going to appeal, so this is nothing more than wishfull thinking on CNN's account.

Here's the proof, a picture taken after the trial:

http://www.deredactie.be/polopoly_fs/1.508518%21image/3493683761.jpg_gen/derivatives/large/3493683761.jpg

PB

[IanP]

They won't be able to send them to jail until after the several years of appeals processes anyway. Plus, as has already been said, this will do diddly squat to breach of copyright anywhere on the planet. Why? Because TPB is just a higher-than-normal profile target on a web made up of thousands of small players. The "organisation" itself is made up of people, the majority of whom know each other by anonymised accounts.

Until the laws regarding Copyright are dragged out of the 18th Century and changed to deal with the reality of the modern world (they have been found guilty of "abetting breach of copyright" for crying out loud! What kind of a charge is that?!) then nothing can be done about what is happening.

While I'm glad they have been convicted of something, it's going to achieve nothing. Certainly by just shifting the money back into the hands of the EMIs, Sonys and Universals of this world, they're not going to get 'Joe Public' to see what they're doing wrong and neither will they help in any way the developers here who won't see a penny, nor any change in the number of their products illegally distributed.

[shackleton_boy]

whoooooohaaaa damn! ugly arent they?!

[CodyValkyrie]

Business as usual? You bet. TPB is still up. Sad. Especially considering I see a lot of friends work on there.

[6297J]

Well the 1o/c BBC News had this story as it's lead today (the fact that the beeb view this as the most important news event of the day speaks volumes about both the current state of BBC reporting and the age of its producers). Anyone who didn't know who PB were before, now know everything including how to use the site.

As for the defendants, they probably won't go to jail for years, if at all, they certainly won't do anything like a year and they won't be paying anything like $3 million in damages.

But now the media has shown us who they are they will be held up as heros of the internet underclass forever more.

[stiz]

wanna cut down on piracy?? put a limit on what search engines are allowed to actually search for, that alone would cut out a lot i reckon :kilroy:

[CodyValkyrie]

wanna cut down on piracy?? put a limit on what search engines are allowed to actually search for, that alone would cut out a lot i reckon :kilroy:
One of the things that bothers me most is not necessarily how people can go and find it on such sites, but when you legitimately look up the name of an addon, game, etc, and on the first page of search hits you inevitably get results leading to a torrent.

It's one thing to put a lock on your door to keep the honest man honest, it's a whole 'nother problem to simply leave your door wide open.

[Z-PurpleBubble]

Until the laws regarding Copyright are dragged out of the 18th Century and changed to deal with the reality of the modern world (they have been found guilty of "abetting breach of copyright" for crying out loud! What kind of a charge is that?!) then nothing can be done about what is happening.
I couldn't agree with ya more Ian. The internet, P2P and so forth have an influence on copyright laws and the legislation simply isn't up to reality anymore.

The net started out as a means of sharing information or data if you will, and copyright laws have never followed this reality.

It's up to us, the internet users to push our representatives to have the laws updated, so all of us know what is legal and what is not.

Moreover, there is no sense in bashing the technology! Torrents are a usefull means of sharing large chunks of data, and should be left untouched. Same thing applies to freedom of information and speech on the net.

Oh and Henk, the fact whether they are ugly or beautifull doesn't mean squat! That was a highly superfluous remark!

PB

[Z-PurpleBubble]

wanna cut down on piracy?? put a limit on what search engines are allowed to actually search for, that alone would cut out a lot i reckon :kilroy:
And cut down on freedom of information? Do you want to put an end to democracy as well???

JEEZ!!

[IanP]

It's up to us, the internet users to push our representatives to have the laws updated, so all of us know what is legal and what is not.

People know full well - they just don't care.

The critical thing is that right now, copyright law is seen as protecting big business, who already stand accused in the public eye of ripping people off with cartels and grossly overpriced products producing massive profits for next to no outlay. That may or may not be reality, but that is public perception.

On the other hand, the very people copyright is supposed to protect - the small FS developers, individual photographers, painters, musicians and the like - can do nothing to protect themselves against the illegal reproduction of the product they sell. That balance needs to be redressed, but also the consumer has to be protected from the likes of the RIAA, who would only be too happy to force you to pay multiple times to get the same piece of music on MP3, AAC and CD.

I've heard a heck of a lot of discussion between people about this subject (take a look at the BBC Have Your Say about the Pirate Bay case - there are very few people who want to run cheering through the streets!) and the almost unanimous feeling is that this is a victory for big business to help big business and solely for the benefit of big business. That's not what this is supposed to be about.

[Bjoern]

This is only one head of the hydra. If you want to kill it, kill its heart - the internet.

The trial does nothing but to create martyrs and satisfy some huge corporations' need for attention and defense of their business practices. It also gives the media a great story to drool over. Also, it's a barrel of powder.
If this trial ends with TPB being freed of all charges, it might be the spark for a revolution in the media and internet world.

And I damn well think it's time for one.

[Lawman]

And cut down on freedom of information? Do you want to put an end to democracy as well???

JEEZ!!

There isn't and there has never been an absolute right of free speech or freedom of information. While the entertainment industry has played its cards stupidly, they're 100 gazillion percent right when they say that as copyright holders they have the right to determine how their intellectual property gets used. In Western society, the idea is you should get to reap the benefits of your efforts.

[TeaSea]

Lawman is correct. There is no such absolute as "Freedom of Speech". You pay for your speech one way or another.

Not to offend, but frankly it's a bit disengenous to be concerned about "Freedom of Speech" as an issue when you're stealing software. The much abused "Freedom of Speech" argument is being applied to everything from downloading music to pedophelia...frankly it's getting a little old. Sort of like comparing everyone you disagree with to Nazi's.


I would add that it appears that on this thread everyone seems to be breaking down in to these groups regarding this issue (even though we all seem to agree that software piracy is bad):

1 - There's the "people will keep on doing these bad things anyway so why bother prosecuting" cabal.

2- Then there's the "Let us take all the software pirates, hang them up by their scrotums on rusty nails and spit on their mothers" posse.

3 - The "none of the laws of any country younger than 2 years can possibly work to address this new digitial age" convent.

4 - Of course theres the "It's all about evil corporate greed and opprresion of the common man" consortium. They seem to show up on every thread eventually.

and finally my group....

5 - The "those pirate dudes in Sweden are probably the ugliest and doofiest MoFo's with the most pathetic facial hair I've every seen in my life" fan club.:woot:

[6297J]

6 - The ''Yes, I agree, it's terrible, I think they should be - OMG they've got My Name is Earl series 4!!'', brigade.

[vstudios]

he looks like a rug rat

[Mithrin]

Four people. I don't know anyone in my close neighbourhood who hasn't ever downloaded music or something off the internet. Good move in jailing these martyrs. Definitely the source of the problem....sigh.

It starts with the internet providers and lots of their info on their customers which is still considered 'sacred' in too many countries. Government in the form of an I.T. police department needs to be able to access that stuff, just as well as they are allowed to walk around the real world and keep a close eye on things...

Cool, they are martyrs now. You know what happened to real world pirates when some of their comrades got their heads chopped off at the block? They fought even more vicous to stay out of the hands of their opponents and used their cunning and creative mind to get what they wanted...you do the math.

Sorry guys but I had to get that out of my system. Nothing personal against anyone or anyone's opinion but just my personal opinion.

[Lionheart]

I am just greatful that those pirates have been shut down.

Bottom line.



A thief is a thief. That was like 'organized crime' on a world scale in the internet world. Now they are gone.


Good...!



Bill

[IanP]

Nice to see that even here, with supposedly rational adults involved, it comes down to petty personal insults. How mature.

Lawman is indeed correct that there can never be unfettered freedom of speech - there are hundreds of laws in every country that limit it (defamation and libel to list but two whole areas of law). The question with limiting what search engines can and cannot display is who makes the decisions? What's legal in Holland is illegal in the USA. What's legal in the USA is illegal in much of the Arab world. So who decides? Capitol Hill? Westminster? Beijing? Redmond, WA?

As to my argument before, it is not "all" about big business, but as has already been mentioned numerous times on this thread - I personally know people whose products are on TPB. How much of the payments TPB will probably never make was ever earmarked for them, compared to how much will go to the megaliths of the entertainment industry? Yes, they potentially lost far more, but the loss of a thousand sales to them affects them vastly less than one sale to a low volume sales one man band. Copyright law is supposed to protect both of those, yet right now it doesn't.

Parts of copyright law need to become criminal, rather than civil. It needs to become a lot less expensive to bring a breach of copyright case. Yet at the same time, you can't forget that there are people out there with control over something that people want who would happily say "You have to pay me full price every time you look at it, let alone play it". The law also has to protect the general public from that. It's a balancing act, yes, but right now it's too skewed in favour of those breaking the law, let alone against those who can't afford to bring cases against them.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/17/pirate_verdict_next_move/page2.html

Edit: Sorry Bill, but they're not gone. Jailing and fining a handful of individuals won't change a thing. Also, no matter how much people want it to be, Breach of Copyright is NOT THEFT. The two are very different things for good reason. You can still sell software, even after it is illegally uploaded. If it had been stolen from you, you couldn't. It's that simple and, while the law is wrong and penalties should be far more appropriate than they currently are, the definitions are still correct.

[Henry]

copyright laws are at best vauge
for the common man
as Ian stated earlier, take a photographer
for an example he takes a picture, you like it
you order a print a small one, as its cheaper
you then take it to a photo lab and tell them you need a copy say an 8x10, now a smart person would tell them sorry
but i cannot copy this it has a copyright
then the customer states well i paid for it its mine
you own the photograph but not the image
some people will copy it
what can a small photographer do
not a lot!
in the same token who are the real pirates
the site that has a way of hosting whatever
or the people who upload and download
kind of like the pawn shop
who is the larger villain
the pawn shop or the seller, both are wrong
but the seller or uploader are the worst
will it ever stop
i dont believe so unless things change big time
and i do not see that happening
just an observation
H

[Z-PurpleBubble]

I honestly think that the people from TPB are more of a sting into the sides of big businesses, than that of the good people here.

The many designers that sometimes gather here are more damaged by small players (compared to TPB) such as ***** of Silence and El Hangar.

And Ian is so right in saying that legally speaking, a copyright infringement is not theft but just a copyright infringement. "You can still sell software, even after it is illegally uploaded. If it had been stolen from you, you couldn't".

And indeed again as Ian hints: we should not revert to cheap name calling or insults, just because TPB is high profile. In the short time that I've been here, I believe that this place has a helpfull and friendly crowd.

PB

[Alexraptor]

I can see there is a lot of hostility towards torrents... it is unfortunate that they have gotten such bad rep.
Torrents are good, i welcome torrents and support them.... but i condemn piracy, simple truth is that The Pirate Bay is a torrent tracker just like any othe, except that since they are swedish they have caught the attention of the swedish legal system, with pressure of course from the corporate giants such as MGM and Universal ect.

Do a search for say "Flight Simulator X torrent" on google, sure the Pirate Bay comes up there among the first results, but its neither the first or only torrent.
Now do a search for "Star Wreck torrent" and again of course you will find links to many other torrent sites with the torrent.
BUT! note the important difference, FSX torrents are obviously illegal and pirated... but "Star Wreck" is a finnish star trek fan film distributed for "free" and is perfectly legal to download via torrent.

And therein lies the problem, torrents are not evil and only for pirates, however they are a very efficient and safe way of sharing files(avoiding being hacked ect) not to mention very cost friendly since you dont have to host the files on a large server. The trackers also work as a search engine finding specific torrents and even some less well-known musicians have released their work as torrents.
The entire court case is a joke in my opinion as it has already been established that The Pirate Bay does not actually host any copyright protected material on their servers, hence they are not actually Pirates or guilty of copyright infringement.
This isnt about right and wrong, or laws... this is about new technology and the internet evolving and the goverments and companies ect desperately trying to cope with something that they do not fully understand.

Now just to make this clear once more... i do not condone piracy, nor do i engage it that despicable activity. And i am pleased to say i have bought my payware addons for FSX and they were worth every penny.
And more than anything i sympathise greatly with the addon makers who loose money on pirated versions of addons leaking out on torrents, rapidshare and ftp's.

[BASys]

Hi Folks

http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/paris_hilton_48.png Your personal freedoms have just been further eroded.

This case-law precedent
effectively allows anyone with enough financial clout
to override commonsense, (in Sweden only so far).



Not in any way defending their behaviour,
only providing objective comment.

Remember -
The Pirate Bay themselves, are not the pirates.

They host no content.
They only provide a contact mechanism.

That's for any user
who wishes to redistribute content,
whether cosidered legal or otherwise.

No matter what their chosen brand-name,
or bravado based philosophy posted statements might infer.



They're just using a perfectly legal mechanism,
to allow their customers to share files.



WRT case-law -
Providers of a mechanism
are now liable for its content.

i.e.
Woolies, Walmart, or whoever,
as providers/distibutors of knives
could now be held liable as accessories to murder, (in Sweden only ATM),
because they sold the knife.

On a more FS related note.
This equates to a positive outcome for FS users -
Distributors of FS products
can no longer use disclaimers to limit their liability
for any effect of their product on your FSX's FPS.



Pirate Bay's key downfall, (from a legal perspective),
being that they refused to remove contested content.

Bottom-line
The seeders of pirated content are making no profit.
AND
There's not been any tie-up whatsoever,
that confirms the Pirate Bay team have ever seeded.



Google beware,
You're next !

Unlike Pirate Bay
Google actually hosts content,
through their cached mechanism, (YMMV).



On a personal note
I'm now boycotting all Swedish products,
with the intent of destabilising the Swedish economy.

To that end -
I've just cancelled my orders for -
- 3 x JAS39 Grippen fighters
- 8 x Bofors 57 MK3 guns
- 4 x Visby corvettes, (2 x MK3 Bofors per vessel)
- 20 x Scania trucks
- New Volvo XC60 estate
Also -
- Binned my Ericsson phone
- Subscription to Swedish porn mags.
Hoping you'll all take a similar approach. :ernae:


Disclaimer -
All the above may be utter rubish, (ATM),
but if I win the lottery tomorrow night,
I'll force the issue in court.



Paris -
Coz from experience,
she knows better !



ATB
Paul

[Bjoern]

I am just greatful that those pirates have been shut down.

Not gonna happen until the trial is over.



Nice to see that even here, with supposedly rational adults involved, it comes down to petty personal insults. How mature.

Yep, truly sad. But it nicely demonstrates the default black/white painting of this kind of subject.

[TeaSea]

Nice to see that even here, with supposedly rational adults involved, it comes down to petty personal insults. How mature.


Ian, if that's for me...no insult intended.

But you gotta admit...these guys look doofy.

(probably junior Nazi's)
:wavey:

[BASys]

But you gotta admit...
these guys look doofy.
You seen Bill Gates's early pics ?

[Bjoern]

But you gotta admit...these guys look doofy.

(probably junior Nazi's)

Sorry, but...

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/t3h_3vil/Internet/facepalm.jpg

[kilo delta]

On a personal note
I'm now boycotting all Swedish products,
with the intent of destabilising the Swedish economy.

To that end -
I've just cancelled my orders for -
- 3 x JAS39 Grippen fighters
- 8 x Bofors 57 MK3 guns
- 4 x Visby corvettes, (2 x MK3 Bofors per vessel)
- 20 x Scania trucks
- New Volvo XC60 estate
Also -
- Binned my Ericsson phone
- Subscription to Swedish porn mags.
Hoping you'll all take a similar approach. :ernae:


ATB
Paul

I'll gladly take any old mags ,Paul :monkies::friday:

[IanP]

They're geeks. They're the same the world over. There are probably a few clones reading this very comment. However, that's utterly immaterial.

I'm afraid the Daily Mail style arm waving about how this will destroy the planet and/or solve everything in one fell swoop are massively wide of the mark. In reality, no-one will even notice this other than those directly involved after more than a few days and another news cycle.

The people you really need to have in the dock are the uploaders. Without them, there's no sites, no downloaders, nothing to download. Yet Mithrin's suggestion that ISPs should be forced to hand over information is never going to work either.

World of Warcraft uses peer-to-peer distribution to apply patches. So do many other games and applications. The Linux brigade would be totally stuffed if you stopped them using P2P or torrents, but if you start telling ISPs to tell the Police every time someone uses a P2P application or uploads a torrent, they're just going to grab everything in the same dragnet, legal or otherwise. Plus if you want to see what people think about having someone look at everything they do on the internet, do some research into Phorm/BT Webwise. People are rather upset about that, including me. What legal activities I carry out are my own personal business, thank you, and no-one, government or private individual, has any right or reason at all to directly and actively monitor them.

The only place you can kill something like this is at source. You turn off the tap and what that tap supplies withers and dies. But in order to do that, you have to convince people that what they are doing is wrong. The reason I moan about the RIAA/MPAA members' claims because their dumb as pig#%$£ moronic actions are making it next to impossible for people who are really suffering from this stuff to get their point across. The RIAA and MPAA members are still posting healthy multi-million dollar profits every year while crying that this will kill them, the same as VHS and audio cassettes did... I mean, it's not like anyone buys copies of films or music any more is it? We just tape them off the TV or radio... right? Er, yeah. Sorry. Back to this reality.

"One download = one sale lost" is hogwash to anyone with half a braincell actually thinking rationally. People have a fixed budget (mine for this month is expended already). So if I downloaded a copy of, pluck expensive things out of my head, Corel Photo Studio, AutoCAD or 3DStudioMAX, they haven't lost a sale. I could never afford to buy it anyway! By downloading them, I am not breaking the law anyway - not until I distribute them to someone else.

Change the law to something vaguely relevant that covers software, rather than printing plates, go after the seeders. The majority of serial warez downloaders I have come across in my time don't use 99% of what they have anyway - they just use it to seed other peoples' downloads and get themselves a better "score". They should be easy to detect for anyone who really wanted to try. Problem is, the only people who can afford to try aren't looking for thousands of small artists' files, they're looking for the latest blockbuster or the latest boy-band trash album, which means that they catch the small fry and don't even notice the big fish.

...how many analogies did I use in that post? It really is way past time for bed. Have fun!

[JIMJAM]

Whether its porn,pipe bomb instructions or planes,if nobody downloaded it, it would just float around in cyber space. I have stumbled across many a payware I could have got for free but 1st I know its wrong and 2nd, I want the company to get paid so they make more.
If neither of the above 2 points have any meaning to you,then I doubt you were going to buy it anyways.
Cloud 9s security caused me so many problems when I upgraded my systems,I stopped buying from them.A few others crashed my system and anything that modifies my registry,requires a personal emailed password or if reinstalling requires alot of hoops to jump through.OFF my HD it goes. Outta here..............
The solution? Hire these geeks.

[MCDesigns]

My 2 cents again since I feel strongly about this as someone that has been directly affected and will never get over that feeling of being violated, just like if someone walked into my apt and stole my possessions.

You know, I just realized how wrong I was to blame the PB guys for what they are doing, the real blame belongs on the many, many, many users that have no qualms about stealing (d/ling for free from these types of sites) or deliberately being a total worthless piece of :censored: and uploading others peoples hard work for other POS users to share.

It's truly amazing to read thru threads like this and see how differently others justify/condone/condemn illegal/immoral actions. Some look the other way because it is part of their culture/environment, Their friends do it, so it can't be wrong, right? (gotta love weak minded people who succumb to peer pressure) Others justify it because part of one of the ways to try and stop it is an inconvenience to them and they would rather not be inconvenienced than do something that might help to curb this illegal activity. And yes, I have been guilty as well in the past, before it actually affected me directly.

Honestly, if I found out my best friend was uploading others files to a torrent site I would go over to his house and beat the crap out of him and never speak to him again, it is that easy and black and white in my mind.

[Henry]

the real blame belongs on the many, many, many users that have no qualms about stealing (d/ling for free from these types of sites) or deliberately being a total worthless piece of :censored: and uploading others peoples hard work for other POS users to share.


that was also my point
you just said it better
H

[Alexraptor]

Did i miss something? haven't seen anyone here condoning or justifying piracy.

[CodyValkyrie]

Did i miss something? haven't seen anyone here condoning or justifying piracy.
To me, I feel many do condone it with thinly vieled attempts to make it seem like the act is not necessarily immoral on THEIR end... Speaking of the guys that own TPB, mind you.

I'm tired of hearing, "well, they aren't hosting illegal files, just torrents, so what they are doing is perfectly legal."

So make it illegal for them to do it.

KISS.

[Henry]

I'm tired of hearing, "well, they aren't hosting illegal files, just torrents, so what they are doing is perfectly legal."

So make it illegal for them to do it.

KISS.
yes they are hosting illegal files
and just like a pawn shop who buys stolen goods
they need to be stopped
but if they only hosted legal torrents
it would be fine
but what legal site would use the term Pirate!
H

[CodyValkyrie]

yes they are hosting illegal files
and just like a pawn shop who buys stolen goods
they need to be stopped
but if they only hosted legal torrents
it would be fine
but what legal site would use the term Pirate!
H
I have been yelling this from the highest hills. It seems on some other "forums" people don't see eye to eye with us. The people here mostly get it because most of us have some experience modding, are devs, etc.

:woot:

[Henry]

They should be prosecuted
for not policing there site
and letting illegal uploads allowed
if we allowed that here
we would also be liable
we do our best to not let that happen
they do there best to close there eyes
or endorse it, probably the latter
there lies the difference
H

[warchild]

The problem with the net is that you dont know who can afford something and who cant. Of course I deserve to get paid for what i do. But i also deserve the right to give my work to those i choose, even groups of people, but the network removes that right because in it's virtual amalgamation of ideals and stereotypes, it rmoves the personal senses of whats truly right and wrong, and leaves us blind as to those who truly are deserving of a gift, and those who are little more than hells ****ty cockroaches clammoring for yet one more empty bite of sugar.
Over 90% of the shoplifting crimes in the world are commited by people who can afford to pay for the items they are stealing. The MPAA authorities and other half brained groups in the world want you to only see that 90%, and forget the rest. The rest; The remaining 10% cant afford it, cant pay. They only want to feel for one frikking damned moment somerthing inside that they think normal people feel. They want to forget their hunger, forget their pain, forget the hells they live through, on a moment by moment basis and be just like everyone else, for just a moment. The want to be like the rest of you, so they steal too. Please dont try to tell me i dont know what i'm talking about. I spent 15 years wandering homeless and hungry, and i still fight it on a monthly basis. I know all too well the thinness of the makebekieve perception of security: how easily all these things we take for granted can disappear.
Keep in mind, the MPAA does NOT make movies. It doesnt have a single artist on it's payroll. Instead, it governs movie distribution. It's a middle man. A cockroach like all the roaches out there living off someone elses hard work and claiming it's own right to play god. It's a monster that deserves to die, but this is not the place for that, neither is this the place to discuss moralities and righteousness as i have so blatantly been doing.
I'm glad to see pirate bays founders in jail, though i can assure you, the site remains up. I approve of the words they speak, but not what i am sure was the spirit behind why they spoke them. I hate cowards, and some days, ihate the internet too.
Thoughts are the only things we have which we alone own, for as soon as a thought has been expressed in words, it becomes public property and is no longer our own. Thomas Jefferson:.

[BASys]

Hi Folks


yes they are hosting illegal files
and just like a pawn shop who buys stolen goods
Henry -
Again I'm not condoning,
only clarifying a common misconception.

Can't add smileys as majority missing ATM.



Pirate Bay do not host any content files.

Your pawn shop anology is inappropriate.

Think more a public billboard.

All they do is host a user supplied link, (aka torrent),
as a pointer to the user's pc
which hosts the actual content files.

A torrent only contains metadata.
It does not contain the content files.



For info -

To share a file or group of files,
a peer first creates a small file called a "torrent" (e.g. MyFile.torrent).

This file contains metadata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metadata) about the files to be shared
and about the tracker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_tracker),
the computer that coordinates the file distribution.
Peers that want to download the file must first obtain a torrent file for it,
and connect to the specified tracker,
which tells them from which other peers to download the pieces of the file.
Users browse the web to find a torrent of interest, download it, and open it with a BitTorrent client.
The client connects to the tracker(s) specified in the torrent file,
from which it receives a list of peers currently transferring pieces of the file(s) specified in the torrent.
The client connects to those peers to obtain the various pieces.
If the swarm contains only the initial seeder,
the client connects directly to it and begins to request pieces.Pirate Bay -

Only torrent files are saved at the server.
That means no copyrighted and/or illegal material are stored by us.HTH
ATB
Paul

[Henry]

Hi Folks


Henry -
Again I'm not condoning,
only clarifying a common misconception.

Can't add smileys as majority missing ATM.



Pirate Bay do not host any content files.

Your pawn shop anology is inappropriate.

Think more a public billboard.

All they do is host a user supplied link, (aka torrent),
as a pointer to the user's pc
which hosts the actual content files.

A torrent only contains metadata.
It does not contain the content files.




Paul
Ok think of it as putting up a sign
files for transfer
just go get em!
one would think first and check what they are
of course one could close your eyes
does that make you innocent
i think not
H

[Henry]

and where else would we get
illegal software
please do not give links!
i have no problems with torrents
just illegal ones
you cannot tell me
that tpb is innocent
H

[IanP]

One thing that is very true about all this is that Google are just as guilty of exactly the same things as TPB are - with two exceptions:

1) TPB allows people to look for illegal software without the annoyance of having to go past those irritating places that think you might want to obey the law.

2) Google actually serves up far more links to far more illegal software. But they don't set out to do it, it's just a byproduct of the fact that this stuff is so widespread.

What makes TPB so open to accusation is that they set out to show that they're untouchable and "right", which isn't the case. BASys is totally wrong when he says this is a limitation of free speech and the destruction of the internet. Some people - they're called sociopaths normally - have no idea or care what the effect of their actions is on other people. If you let them do whatever they want, they damage other peoples' lives.

It's an age old argument - with rights come responsibilities. People want the rights, but don't want to show any responsibility whatsoever so you have to have rules and you have to have punishments if people break them. The problem with this, as I will never stop saying until someone does something about it, is that the rules are wrong, out of date and ineffective and the punishments are the same.

It needs to be dealt with and accusing anyone saying that of "siding with the pirates" or announcing that anyone who downloads illegal software should be strung up by their arms and fed slowly into a mincing machine is VERY unhelpful towards coming up with a real solution to a very real problem.

[BananaBob]

I definitely agree that stealing anything is wrong and applaud the disdain toward that act but I think there are much more pressing issues right now that deserve this kind of attention, I'm not going to get into what those issues are but we all need to seriously think about them, especially people who believe in the US Constitution, those are the folks I'm referring to.We've become a country that respects men and not the law and that is the reason why people think it's OK to steal. I love all you guys and gals, (not that way LOL) but I'm serious, that is where all these problems originated from. I'm just trying to put things in perspective, don't kill the messenger, LOL :engel016:

[gajit]

I definitely agree that stealing anything is wrong and applaud the disdain toward that act but I think there are much more pressing issues right now that deserve this kind of attention, I'm not going to get into what those issues are but we all need to seriously think about them, especially people who believe in the US Constitution, those are the folks I'm referring to.We've become a country that respects men and not the law and that is the reason why people think it's OK to steal. I love all you guys and gals, (not that way LOL) but I'm serious, that is where all these problems originated from. I'm just trying to put things in perspective, don't kill the messenger, LOL :engel016:

Your not wrong Bob. But it must be getting confusing for youngsters now to consider this as stealing as downloading is a way of life to them - just taken for granted - if you dont get charged then it must be free?!?!.

That is why I feel that it is those "aiding" the theft deserve all they get - the pirates deserve shutdown as well as prison.

The whole thing is now weird. If I like a record I hear on the radio I dont bother to buy it to start with - just listen/watch on utube. Ok - if im still keen to play one on anything other than my pc i then buy it. But that is only say 2 out of 20 tunes. In the past I might have purchased 50% of them. I feel sad for the artists but Im not doing anything illegal.

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Ian -
Intended as light-hearted, but smileys still not available.


One thing that is very true about all this is that
Google are just as guilty of exactly the same things as TPB are
From a legal pov, Google are worse.

Their robots actively -
- go out and crawl the net
- enter your site without permission
- impair your site's performance whilst indexing
- collect, rank, and then publicise all your content
- store copies of that content
- regularly return to repeat all above

And they think its perfectly acceptable to do so.

Furthermore
Google consider it your duty
to fit locks preventing them entering your premises.

Of course,
some may be of the opinion that
Google are offering a valuable service,
and that outweighs your rights and copyright.

Theft is theft.
No matter who carries it out.




BASys is totally wrong when he says
this is a limitation of free speech
and the destruction of the internet.
Please -
a) Do not misquote/attribute statements/viewpoints to me.
b) Go back and re-read what I'd posted,
You'll find I said nothing of the sort whatsoever.



What I did say was -

WRT case-law -
Providers of a mechanism
are now liable for its content.

i.e.
Woolies, Walmart, or whoever,
as providers/distibutors of knives
could now be held liable as accessories to murder, (in Sweden only ATM),
because they sold the knife.

On a more FS related note.
This equates to a positive outcome for FS users -
Distributors of FS products
can no longer use disclaimers to limit their liability
for any effect of their product on your FSX's FPS.



Simpler explanation.

You as a webmaster,
are responsible for ALL linked material accessible from your site.

You link to a site hosting porn,
you are responsible.

That was sensibly circumventable,
by the inclusion of a disclaimer,
distancing your liability from any external site's content.

This Swedish PB case
removes that disclaimer circumvention.



I assume the inference was unintentional,
but I'd appreciate insertion of clearspace/newlines
between -
- what you claimed I was saying,
and -
- your sociopaths statement.

Some people - they're called sociopaths normally - have no idea or care what the effect of their actions is on other people.



HTH
ATB
Paul

[Alexraptor]

Thats one of the reasons why there are so many protests here in sweden... it really has nothing to do with the illegal filesharing, but basicly if it stays the way it is(they loose their appeals) it pretty much invalidates a lot of other legal rights and priviliges and convolutes the entire legal system.

Basicly... a knife salesman could now with this be charged as an accomplice to murder if he sold someone a knife which the buyer killed people with.
So the implications of the entire court case are much more far reaching than a little bit of piracy.

[BASys]

i have no problems with torrents
just illegal ones
Henry -
You've entirely missed the point.

There is no such thing as an illegal torrent. (well there could be, but not in the context of TPB).

A torrent file is only metadata, (who where, how).

ATB
Paul

[Z-PurpleBubble]

Hi Folks

http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/paris_hilton_48.png Your personal freedoms have just been further eroded.

This case-law precedent
effectively allows anyone with enough financial clout
to override commonsense, (in Sweden only so far).



Not in any way defending their behaviour,
only providing objective comment.

Remember -
The Pirate Bay themselves, are not the pirates.

They host no content.
They only provide a contact mechanism.

That's for any user
who wishes to redistribute content,
whether cosidered legal or otherwise.

No matter what their chosen brand-name,
or bravado based philosophy posted statements might infer.



They're just using a perfectly legal mechanism,
to allow their customers to share files.



WRT case-law -
Providers of a mechanism
are now liable for its content.

i.e.
Woolies, Walmart, or whoever,
as providers/distibutors of knives
could now be held liable as accessories to murder, (in Sweden only ATM),
because they sold the knife.

On a more FS related note.
This equates to a positive outcome for FS users -
Distributors of FS products
can no longer use disclaimers to limit their liability
for any effect of their product on your FSX's FPS.



Pirate Bay's key downfall, (from a legal perspective),
being that they refused to remove contested content.

Bottom-line
The seeders of pirated content are making no profit.
AND
There's not been any tie-up whatsoever,
that confirms the Pirate Bay team have ever seeded.



Google beware,
You're next !

Unlike Pirate Bay
Google actually hosts content,
through their cached mechanism, (YMMV).



On a personal note
I'm now boycotting all Swedish products,
with the intent of destabilising the Swedish economy.

To that end -
I've just cancelled my orders for -
- 3 x JAS39 Grippen fighters
- 8 x Bofors 57 MK3 guns
- 4 x Visby corvettes, (2 x MK3 Bofors per vessel)
- 20 x Scania trucks
- New Volvo XC60 estate
Also -
- Binned my Ericsson phone
- Subscription to Swedish porn mags.
Hoping you'll all take a similar approach. :ernae:


Disclaimer -
All the above may be utter rubish, (ATM),
but if I win the lottery tomorrow night,
I'll force the issue in court.



Paris -
Coz from experience,
she knows better !



ATB
Paul

Thanks for providing us with this refreshing insight! This is no joke or pun, I just can't agree with you more!! (except for Paris that is!)

Cheers,

PB

[war.ace]

I wonder if they'll catch the people in charge of mininova

[Henry]

Henry -
You've entirely missed the point.

There is no such thing as an illegal torrent. (well there could be, but not in the context of TPB).

A torrent file is only metadata, (who where, how).

ATB
Paul
But they host the torrents
they have a choice as to what ones
they host
as i have a choice of what links are allowed
i saw a direct link to a torrent here in a similar thread
i deleted it
is not that the same?
H

[Alexraptor]

One small problem, literally millions use bittorent, and an even greater amount of files are available.
To actually moderate it would require massive amount of resources... but ultimatley it would be futile as users would eventually just start to hide illegal files by having some name like battlefield_pictures or something less appearant.

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Henry -
Again I'm not condoning.

As site admin you're fully right to choose.

However
I personally wouldn't be deleting it, just because its a torrent.
I'd delete it based on whether the linked file content was legal or not.

Lots of Linux distros are released using BitTorrent.

As are the multi-GB photosceneries for -
- NL2000
- Horizon GenX Updates

HTH
ATB
Paul

[Henry]

Hi Folks

Henry -
Again I'm not condoning.

As site admin you're fully right to choose.

However
I personally wouldn't be deleting it, just because its a torrent.
I'd delete it based on whether the linked file content was legal or not.

Lots of Linux distros are released using BitTorrent.

As are the multi-GB photosceneries for -
- NL2000
- Horizon GenX Updates

HTH
ATB
Paul
I would not delete it because its a torrent
i would delete it because its an illegal torrent
as i have stated torrents are not all bad
if that was the case id be pushing for banning bitlord
etc, yup and Maw is also a torrent
and a perfectly legit one
maybe i have not made myself clear
i only have a problem with illegal files
not legal
i hope some people do know the difference
H

[BASys]

Cheers Henry

Understand your position now.

ATB
Paul

[Bjoern]

On a personal note
I'm now boycotting all Swedish products,
with the intent of destabilising the Swedish economy.

To that end -
I've just cancelled my orders for -
- 3 x JAS39 Grippen fighters
- 8 x Bofors 57 MK3 guns
- 4 x Visby corvettes, (2 x MK3 Bofors per vessel)
- 20 x Scania trucks
- New Volvo XC60 estate
Also -
- Binned my Ericsson phone
- Subscription to Swedish porn mags.
Hoping you'll all take a similar approach. :ernae:


Yep, just burned all my IKEA furniture and household accessories. It's a bit empty in the flat now but at least my conscience is clean.

Also, since those pesky site owners are swedish this toally calls for an invasion and occupation.

Now where did I leave my tank?!

:costumes:

[n4gix]

Where oh where is Judge Dredd when he's needed most! :ernae:

[Henry]

Where oh where is Judge Dredd when he's needed most! :ernae:
cashing his checks
LOL
H

[Z-PurpleBubble]

<title></title>Pirate Bay lawyer calls for retrial

<!-- Article Start --> Published: 23 Apr 09 08:53 CET Online: http://www.thelocal.se/19028/20090423/
A lawyer representing one of the men convicted in the Pirate Bay trial has called for a retrial after reports that the judge was a member of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives.


The judge in the Pirate Bay case, Tomas Norström, has been a member of several of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives, Sveriges Radio's P3 news programme reports.

Peter Althin, the lawyer who represents Pirate Bay spokesperson Peter Sunde, has announced that he plans to demand a retrial.

"I will point that out in my appeal, then the Court of Appeal (Hovrätten) will decide if the district court decision should be set aside and the case revisited," Althin said on Thursday.

Althin is very critical of the judge's actions in the case and argues that the defence should have had an opportunity to review the circumstances.

"In the autumn I received information that a lay judge could have similar connections. I sent these to the court and the judge was excluded in order to prevent a conflict of interest. It would have been reasonable to then review this situation as well," Althin said.

Ola Samuelsson, the lawyer representing Gottfried Svartholm Warg, concurred with Althin in his assessment of the situation.

"All types of interest conflicts are a problem for the judiciary. It should be a matter of course as a judge to ensure that you keep your house in order. This is a high profile case and that is an additional reason to keep a check," Samuelsson said.

Samuelsson said on Thursday that he has not yet decided whether to join Per Althin and demand a retrial.

High profile attorney Leif Silbersky is one of a number of experts who concurred with Althin and Samuelsson in believing that judge Norström's various memberships represent a conflict of interest.

"A retrial is a possibility, but in that case the lawyers will have to take this up immediately," Silbersky told Sveriges Radio.

Pirate Party chairman Rickard Falkvinge has called for the verdict to be scrapped. "The copyright lobby has really managed to bring corruption to Sweden," he said in a statement.

One of the groups of which Norström is a signed up member is Svenska föreningen för upphovsrätt ('the Swedish Copyright Association'), where he is joined by Henrik Pontén, Peter Danowsky and Monique Wadsted, all of whom represented the entertainment industry in the case against file sharing site The Pirate Bay.

The judge also sits on the board of Svenska föreningen för industriellt rättsskydd (Swedish Association for the Protection of Industrial Property), a group actively advocating for more stringent copyright laws.

Norström argues that he was not however swayed in his judgement by involvement with copyright protection groups. "My view has been that these activities do not constitute a conflict of interest," Norström told Sveriges Radio. <!-- Article End -->
<!-- Author Start --> TT/The Local (news@thelocal.se/08 656 6518)

[krazycolin]

Pirate Bay lawyer calls for retrial

<!-- Article Start --> Published: 23 Apr 09 08:53 CET Online: http://www.thelocal.se/19028/20090423/
A lawyer representing one of the men convicted in the Pirate Bay trial has called for a retrial after reports that the judge was a member of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives.


The judge in the Pirate Bay case, Tomas Norström, has been a member of several of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives, Sveriges Radio's P3 news programme reports.

Peter Althin, the lawyer who represents Pirate Bay spokesperson Peter Sunde, has announced that he plans to demand a retrial.

"I will point that out in my appeal, then the Court of Appeal (Hovrätten) will decide if the district court decision should be set aside and the case revisited," Althin said on Thursday.

Althin is very critical of the judge's actions in the case and argues that the defence should have had an opportunity to review the circumstances.

"In the autumn I received information that a lay judge could have similar connections. I sent these to the court and the judge was excluded in order to prevent a conflict of interest. It would have been reasonable to then review this situation as well," Althin said.

Ola Samuelsson, the lawyer representing Gottfried Svartholm Warg, concurred with Althin in his assessment of the situation.

"All types of interest conflicts are a problem for the judiciary. It should be a matter of course as a judge to ensure that you keep your house in order. This is a high profile case and that is an additional reason to keep a check," Samuelsson said.

Samuelsson said on Thursday that he has not yet decided whether to join Per Althin and demand a retrial.

High profile attorney Leif Silbersky is one of a number of experts who concurred with Althin and Samuelsson in believing that judge Norström's various memberships represent a conflict of interest.

"A retrial is a possibility, but in that case the lawyers will have to take this up immediately," Silbersky told Sveriges Radio.

Pirate Party chairman Rickard Falkvinge has called for the verdict to be scrapped. "The copyright lobby has really managed to bring corruption to Sweden," he said in a statement.

One of the groups of which Norström is a signed up member is Svenska föreningen för upphovsrätt ('the Swedish Copyright Association'), where he is joined by Henrik Pontén, Peter Danowsky and Monique Wadsted, all of whom represented the entertainment industry in the case against file sharing site The Pirate Bay.

The judge also sits on the board of Svenska föreningen för industriellt rättsskydd (Swedish Association for the Protection of Industrial Property), a group actively advocating for more stringent copyright laws.

Norström argues that he was not however swayed in his judgement by involvement with copyright protection groups. "My view has been that these activities do not constitute a conflict of interest," Norström told Sveriges Radio. <!-- Article End -->
<!-- Author Start --> TT/The Local (news@thelocal.se/08 656 6518)

And it gets worse yet... (and please, don't think I'm advocating piracy here... just the law)... Apparently that same judge ruled that a juror was to be dismissed because they were part of those same groups and would therefore be subjective to the plaintiffs case.

Though I am against piracy, I sure wouldn't want the judge in my case, whatever it could be, on the side of the opposition in ANY way... that would scare me lots.

[Alexraptor]

By the way, a Swedish author recently made one of her works available on Pirate Bay....for free.
Studies have even shown that filesharing has enormous potential for free advertisement which some people actually have taken advantage of.

[IanP]

And it gets worse yet... (and please, don't think I'm advocating piracy here... just the law)... Apparently that same judge ruled that a juror was to be dismissed because they were part of those same groups and would therefore be subjective to the plaintiffs case.

It was actually a Lay Judge who was dismissed - although by request of the defence (upheld by the court), not by the judge himself.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/23/pirate_bay_judge_accused_of_bias/

It's a politically motivated, vested interests funded, trial. I think everyone knows my position by now (for those who don't, I'm anti-piracy, but pro doing it properly and not lynch mobs) but this farce of a case really does no-one any good at all on either side.

[SpaceWeevil]

It's interesting how this has polarised opinions - invective and satisfaction from many people on the one hand, slight defensiveness on t'other from those who like to use torrents for the intended purpose. It seems pretty clear to me that (Linux prop heads apart, possibly) the huge majority of torrent traffic is the illegal sharing of copyrighted material - I mean you only have to LOOK. If a technology is used overwhelmingly for illegal or immoral purposes, I wonder where that leaves the argument that the technology itself is benign? That's a question by the way, not a statement, but it does seem that crime is so much easier and more likely if you have the means easily to hand.

[IanP]

But once you start "blaming" the tool for the crime, where do you stop? Should we ban cars? They make getaways far easier. What about knives? If we had no knives... people would stab each other with plastic forks.

Seriously, blaming the technology for the rise in breach of copyright is plain silly, I'm afraid. Torrents and cracks don't create themselves - people make them. Those people are at fault, not the technology.

The problem here is that the "law abiding majority" is, probably by now, the "law abiding minority". Why? Because the law is seen as clearly wrong by a heck of a lot of people. Whether it's the fact that legally, you are not allowed to rip music from a CD to your own personal computer (the case in the UK), or the fact that some organisations use copy protection systems that are in the very dark grey area of legal themselves (the Sony "rootkit")... and then add the fact that it's true, people don't want to pay for things! The easiest way to get visitors to your website is to advertise it with the word "FREE!" as a banner.

It's not a black and white issue. It's not "bad people" versus "good people", it's a problem with the law as it exists that needs addressing in a way that doesn't totally destroy one side of the discussion. Are you really - as has already been suggested here - going to prosecute and jail everyone who has ever downloaded an illegal music file? You'll empty the schools pretty quick for starters, and the boardrooms and the offices, the universities... Probably most Police stations worldwide as well!

Yes, people do it because it is easy, but more because it is seen as a "victimless crime". As I said before - are you going to ban all cars because "most people speed", as some surveys apparently "prove"?

[Lionheart]

Which brings us back to square one;

Dont run over people on purpose in your car
Dont go around shooting people
Dont shoplift

and.....

Dont openly distribute payware, copyrighted materials, especially if people and companies that own said material are asking you not to distribute them freely.

:d

[Tim_Horton]

i would like to be part of the team distributing the said 3.7 million dollars. How is that even possible, and where does that money go? in the pocket of some rich Baron who has no problem dumping toxic waste into the ocean, or cutting corners on building projects and killing hundreds of people. But most likely it will be put back into the moral and up lifting honest system of Pornographic movies and articles. Cause the world really needs to degrade the women some more and make sure they stay trash....btw how are they going to get 3.7 million? advertising on their website? Napster got shut down due to files being present on servers, PB got their servers raided, I watched the video and all the police could do was shrug their shoulders. the appeal and court hearings will take up most of this "said 3.7 million" but im sure the guy who created "hunt Bin Laden" game posted all over these sites is going to get nothing... poor guy..

[Z-PurpleBubble]

Which brings us back to square one;

Dont run over people on purpose in your car
Dont go around shooting people
Dont shoplift

and.....

Dont openly distribute payware, copyrighted materials, especially if people and companies that own said material are asking you not to distribute them freely.

:d
And:
Don't jail and fine people because they provide a search engine for torrents, you could just as well do the same to google or yahoo.

Mr.Lionheart, go to google or yahoo, type in any name of any of your products and add the word torrent, rapidshare or megaupload. See what comes out. Are google and yahoo pirates? of course they are not, yet they provide exactly the same service as the pirate bay.

I'll get off me soapbox before I get into trouble.

PB

[IanP]

But you have the choice not to download from the links provided, the same as you have the choice not to upload a torrent found via either source. That's Bill's point and you cannot disagree that it is very valid. ;)

Edited to add: TPB are and always have been aware that their primary use is for illegal files. They have made no effort to remove links when informed that they are doing so and have, instead, posted offensive and sarcastic replies to anyone who has asked them to do so. Hardly fine upstanding members of society, are they?

[Tim_Horton]

super

[Ferry_vO]

They are from Amsterdam... case closed.

Wow, in only six words you have insulted everyone who lives in Amsterdam and probably in the rest of the Netherlands as well..

Of course you have also shown you barely know what you are talking about, as the people from The Pirate Bay come from Sweden, a country at least 400 miles northeast of Amsterdam...

[harleyman]

OK...I read enough.....

Now its done......Sorry to those that were having fun....