Dresden

[Nonato]

Soon...

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9151/dresden.jpg

[loverboy1]

yea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU3wkOGXlcY


:applause::rapture:

[BeauBrummie]

So are you going to do any of the other raids old chap! An interesting choice of mission if I may say so. Wasn't it virtually unapposed by the Luftwaffe? As you can see the BC raid was only one of the eight raids on the city by the Allies.


Table of the air raids on Dresden by the Allies during World War II.

------------------------------------------No. of Aircraft

7 October 1944 Marshalling Yards 8th AF ....30
16 January 1945 Marshalling Yards 8th AF ...133
14 February 1945 City Area RAF BC ............772
14 February 1945 Marshalling Yards 8th AF ..316
15 February 1945 Marshalling Yards 8th AF ..211
2 March 1945 Marshalling Yards 8th AF .......406
17 April 1945 Marshalling Yards 8th AF ........572
17 April 1945 Industrial Area 8th AF ............8

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II))

Notice who paid the most visits to Dresden, not something you hear a great deal of when the matter is discussed in the UK.

I'm very curious why you chose this mission apart frim it's infamy. From a sim point of view what do you see are the challenges of the mission? I'm not having a go but I'm interested.

Beau

[NachtPiloten]

I think any mission can be debated that inflicted huge civilian casualties. The American fire bomb attacks in Japan were horrific as well as the Brit missions on Dresden and Hamburg. It is all so terrible.

[popsaka]

...and that screenie is so OMINOUS!!! Possibly, instead of just plain perverse fascination, one -in recreating the mission could acknowledge and own the "man's inhumanity to ..." aspect and (hopefully) lessons learned... (by BOTH sides)

[mongoose]

I would hope that all here acknowledge the suffering caused on all sides; not to forget the Russians, Poles, Japanese and all the other 50 million odd casualties. This can always be mentioned in any mission by the builder.

Further to this

I have put up some pics from a good BBC DVD called " Battlefields" 4 Episodes; El Alamein, Monte Cassino, BC, and Arnhem. If you have Netflix or the equivalent in the USA, UK or elswhere, I suggest you rent it for the BC episode alone.

It also confirms, what most know, about the goals of Harris and the BC being total destruction of German cities.

Meanwhile the pictures show what it was like at 15K + ft. The youtube pics are similar.

http://www.allensrule.com/Dresden1.jpg

http://www.allensrule.com/Dresden2.jpg

http://www.allensrule.com/Dresden3.jpg

http://www.allensrule.com/Dresden4.jpg


and the full lot at

http://www.allensrule.com/Dresden.zip

[BeauBrummie]

We've discussed this moral issue before so it wasn't my intention to start it off again, my main point was that as it was an attack on a relatively undefended target what's the buzz factor for the player apart from eye candy? Just curious, I don't want to spoil any surprises so I can wait until the mission is released.

Beau

[Led Zeppelin]

Nonato, what's the altitude of the Lancasters on the screen shots?

[rbp71854]

Well since there is an implied moral issue I will jump right into the middle of it. When a nation goes to war there are no innocents. Civilians, perhaps not under arms still enable the war effort through money, war production labor, food production, or through labor/service to the military effort. Late in WWII both Germany and Japan decentralized their war production facilties and co-mingled the facilties with residential areas. Regrettable, but the fact is,when fought to win war is brutal.

As far as a buzz factor I think missions like Dresden historically depict the way it was and should remind us that CFS3 is a sim and not an arcade shoot-em-up game.

[Nonato]

Nonato, what's the altitude of the Lancasters on the screen shots?

@Loic: About 10000 ft.

@Everybody: my intention in writing this mission was only to use the resources at hand in ETO to bring up the feelling those aviators (from both sides) experienced when they saw for the first time, out of nowhere, the flames of that beautiful city. The amazement and the wishes that all that horror finished soon.
Maybe I was the right person to write this mission since I´m neither german, nor american or british. Or maybe I´m the only person who had not the right to write it, I don´t know.
There are some gray zones in flight simmulation....as in everything else in life. Maybe this mission was a bad idea afyer all and I´d better put it aside.

[popsaka]

Nonato!... Please upload. Makin' folks think and/or remember, IMHO, is largely what sets our sim community apart!

more power to YOU!:ernae:

[Helldiver]

The people who complain about the "infamy" of the bombing of Dresden were riding around in their old man's jock straps when all this happened.
I would just like to say this: The Germans started this war that eventually engulfed the whole world. They decided by rule of a madman to continue until Berlin had fallen.
It was a act of deparation before the Allies decided to bomb Hamburg and Dresden. Like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it made good sense at the time. You had to be there and walk in our shoes. We brought the end of a horrible war, the most expedicious method possible.
The word infamy can be more correctly used about the sneaky, cowardly, bombing of Pearl Harbor. " A day that will live in infamy".

[Nonato]

....

[popsaka]

Thanx, Helldiver! Its always a pleasure and an honor to see and hear from you!:wavey:

...and again Nonato: Beautiful screenies:trophy::trophy::trophy:... Proving that our community developed sim RULES!:medals:

[popsaka]

Question: Is the 'D-day' striped bomber a pathfinder??

[Nonato]

Question: Is the 'D-day' striped bomber a pathfinder??

Yes. It is supposed to drop green flares at the immediate vicinity of the target.

[BeauBrummie]

The people who complain about the "infamy" of the bombing of Dresden

Now who's complaining on this thread?? I was interested in Nonato's choice of mission and wondered about why, as it would not have been one I whould have thought of as the sheer size of the raid would have daunted me. Nonato is known for his unique perspective on ETO missions and has made some very interesting choices in the past. I wondered why he chose this one rather than the US bombing campaign on Dresden for instance.

Nonato please do make this mission and publish it as I and others are keen to fly it.

Regards from a fan,

Beau

[Nonato]

@Sir Beau:
Thank you for the support.
The reason why I have chosen a BC mission instead of an 8th mission was quite simple: for the amazing groundhog effects to develop properly I needed the mission to take place during night time.

Some time ago I saw on TV a two part movie called "Dresden" which depicted the facts from the german point-of-view IIRC. Those scenes impressed me very much and I only tried to rebuild them accordingly.

[mongoose]

I am interested to know why many recent night missions are made with ac at alts of 10k ft or less. The standard operating height for most BC missions was 15K +. It would be interesting to see the effcts at the correct higher altitudes (15-20K ft.)

In the case of Dresden 796 Lancs and 9 mossies were dispatched in 2 separate raids. The 1st attack by 5th Group did use their own system of low level marking methods and in this raid with 244 lancs there was low level cloud. 3 Hours later the rest arrived; the weather was clear and 8th Group provided standard marking.


As Beau suggest the 8th raided Dresden more often and on the 14th Mustang fighter escorts were ordered to strafe the roads!

[ronnybengt]

nice nonato.....plz upload sooon

R

[Shessi]

Mongoose,
Generally speaking Lancs did bomb from higher up than most other ac (better all-round performance), but many ac were forced lower due to visibility, escaping searchlights/other ac/night fighters/flak/bombs, weather and poor performance of numerous war-weary ac etc and suprisingly some pilots even prefered to drop from lower heights!!!

If you look at the 'kill' heights of the night fighters and read the auto biographies of crew you'll also be suprised at what heights ac flew and bombed at (it's much lower than you'd think)....Although there would have been a briefed height of entry and exit from the target area, there really is no 'correct' height although I have to agree that the majority would have been higher than 10,000ft.

So ac at low and high level to make it more realistic maybe?

Cheers Shessi

[mongoose]

Taking a random night from Theo Boiten's War Diaries. 27th-28th August 1943, which happened be BC to Nuremberg, nearly every "kill Height" was over 4000 m., with many over 5000 m. From my reading the bombers flew and bombed as high as possible to avoid both flak and the NJ.
In mixed ac raids the Stirlings were lowest at about 15K ft with the Halis and Lancs up to 20K ft. naturally the Stirlings and any other lower flights suffered the most!

For historical accuracy, most raids should be at those heights. There were exceptions of course and IIRC Peenemude was a little lower with the Lancs crossing Denmark at 18K ft but they all lost height before the attack at 6-10K feet. It should be noted that accuracy was very important in this raid and great steps were taken to divert German defenses elsewhere (Berlin for instance).

Of course. as you point out, they often ended at all sorts of heights for various reasons, and often those lower and in trouble got into more trouble.

[Nonato]

I tried at first to make a bombing mission at 15000 ft but the flak was not realistic at this height. So, I lowered to 11000ft.
The Hali pathfinders are at 3000 ft.

N.

[loverboy1]

hey nonato , im canadain we fly anything ////lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

[Led Zeppelin]

I tried at first to make a bombing mission at 15000 ft but the flak was not realistic at this height.
I have exactly the same problem. At 20000 ft, there is no flak anymore, it's piece of cake. Sometime there is and I still don't know why, I've used a_90mm, ETO_flak and ETO_HA_flak guns without success.
At 15000 it's much better.

[mongoose]

Perhaps the flak should be altered?? Preeze did a 105mm flak gun for me which I sent on to the ETO team but I don't believe it was worked on. It would be nice if the flak was right and then the bombers could also fly at the right height.

[DonSPa]

one thing i like about cfs3 is it is a sim which can and does have a way to keep history alive.Even if we didnt have the missions it still is a game that depicts war.War is not a good thing no matter what and will always be horrifying,there are things that happened in the past that i probally never would have realized if i had not gotten interested in this sim.I say go ahead and do the missions so that we dont forget the things that had happened and that maybe someday the world leaders will realize that there are better ways to solve things than war.To me this sim is a tribute to those who served and died for our countries.Nonato thanx for this and i will look forward to seeing it on screen

[mongoose]

Flak at 20K ft. using HA flak and 105mm flak.

http://www.allensrule.com/flak20k.jpg

Remember they had 100ds of guns in major cities. This is with less than 100.

[Nonato]

I have spread enough ha_guns but still get only a few shot above 15000ft...

[O-1Driver]

I have spread enough ha_guns but still get only a few shot above 15000ft...

Hey Nonato,

I have been out of town and getting ready to leave again but dropped in and saw your PM.

The ETO High Altitude flak works perfectly, here are some screen shots of a simple test mission I just threw together. The B-17 is at 30,000 ft.

Send me your mission ASAP and I will fix the flak for you but get it to me today.

Sorry I was so late getting back to you partner,

Best Regards

Steve

[O-1Driver]

Nonato,

The German "Ranging" flak used to bracket the bombers at altitude also is a HA flak. Here you see the HA Red flak bursts along with conventional flak rounds. Again the B-17 is at 30,000 ft. The "ranging" flak comes in a couple of colors.

The ranging flak was used sparingly with only one burst per several dozen of the black shell bursts.

Steve

[popsaka]

Wuz the 'ranging' flak the primary method of determining alt?

[O-1Driver]

I have spread enough ha_guns but still get only a few shot above 15000ft...

Nonato,

Most of the larger CFS 3 stock factories and shipyards have the ETO High altitude flak added to them sparingly. To add the additional guns do as per the Mission Read me that James put up here on SOH. Remember that artie and flak guns have limitations on gun elevation and "travel". You have to add them using different angles and distance from target for maximum effect. I think the max elevation on the flak is 85 degrees so it cannot shoot straight up.

Steve

[O-1Driver]

Wuz the 'ranging' flak the primary method of determining alt?


This was Bob's baby. He did considerable research on their use and can probably answer that question better than I can. I built the ranging flak for him at his request and we included it in ETO.

Steve

[Nonato]

Nonato,

Most of the larger CFS 3 stock factories and shipyards have the ETO High altitude flak added to them sparingly. To add the additional guns do as per the Mission Read me that James put up here on SOH. Remember that artie and flak guns have limitations on gun elevation and "travel". You have to add them using different angles and distance from target for maximum effect. I think the max elevation on the flak is 85 degrees so it cannot shoot straight up.

Steve

Got that, sir! Will try ASAP. Report back later.

[O-1Driver]

Got that, sir! Will try ASAP. Report back later.

Nonato,

Here are some screenshots of the test I just built. Remember the gun will point 180 degrees from the direction the truck is pointed. A flak gun on the back side of the target pointed away from the player will not fire untill the player has passed beyond the target and gun. I would place some on the sides of the target and spread in a circle with varied distances as they were in real life. They were normaly arranged in circles around the facility they were protecting. have some pointed in and some pointed out.

Steve

[Nonato]

Nonato,

Here are some screenshots of the test I just built. Remember the gun will point 180 degrees from the direction the truck is pointed. A flak gun on the back side of the target pointed away from the player will not fire untill the player has passed beyond the target and gun. I would place some on the sides of the target and spread in a circle with varied distances as they were in real life. They were normaly arranged in circles around the facility they were protecting. have some pointed in and some pointed out.

Steve

Yeah, I remember you had told me that once. Thanks for this info. (Will write it down on the manual).

[O-1Driver]

Yeah, I remember you had told me that once. Thanks for this info. (Will write it down on the manual).

Nonato,

Also try different combinations of eto_HA_flak1 and eto_HA_flak for best immersion and survivability. The eto_HA_flak1 will fire blanks giving you increased shellbursts and effect without splinters. The eto_ha_flak has the normal smaller survivable splinters Both have the new explode effect with brief cockpit illumination at night.

Steve

[Nonato]

Trying to manage the flak...not yet satisfied, though.
Steve, I´m getting a frame hit...trying to decrease the firestorms...not so sucessfully...any ideas?

[O-1Driver]

Nonato,

When tested the frame hits on the Firestorm was not bad at all. However combined with scenery, weather and flak and searchlights you could have a problem.

Suggestions:

1. Searchlights cause a big hit try to use sparingly with the firestorm
2. Do not use "intense" weather with the firestorm effect. Try England rain France Clear. Clouds and rain cause tremendous hits.
3. Labels cause a hit when in view
4. Aircraft will cause a significant hit when used in quantity.

Steve

[Nonato]

Will do. Thank you.

N.

[O-1Driver]

Will do. Thank you.

N.

Nonato,

You also have to keep in mind that ETO has been designed to take advantage of the newer more powerful computers. As players upgrade their equipment ETO will get better and better. For those with older PC's they will have to sometimes move their sliders down. In some cases they will simply not be able to fly the more intense missions without editing. MAW is set up the same way and FPS hits over some harbors will reduce the game to a slide show on some PCs.

Steve

[NachtPiloten]

Nonato,

When tested the frame hits on the Firestorm was not bad at all. However combined with scenery, weather and flak and searchlights you could have a problem.

Suggestions:

1. Searchlights cause a big hit try to use sparingly with the firestorm
2. Do not use "intense" weather with the firestorm effect. Try England rain France Clear. Clouds and rain cause tremendous hits.
3. Labels cause a hit when in view
4. Aircraft will cause a significant hit when used in quantity.

Steve

Aircraft -

I will make very attempt to make super framerate friendly BC bombers for later this year. I would love to get 100-150 planes up in the air including a few njg.

[Tailwind]

Yeah, I remember you had told me that once. Thanks for this info. (Will write it down on the manual).

What Manual?

TW

[mongoose]

Check http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=info&FileID=13888

[Led Zeppelin]

thanks for the details Steve.

Now, I still have same trouble as Nonato. I don't use flak guns as vehicules but I use home made facilities.
what I've noticed is that red flak and flare guns always fire even at 20000ft, no problem about that.

This is not the case with flak guns, I'll have to test further more.

what's the difference between eto_flak and eto_HA_flak?

what's the difference between eto_flak1 and eto_HA_flak1?

what is the maximum altitude at which these gun will fire?


About the a_90mm, is it still the stock one? what is the maximum altitude for this AA gun?

[O-1Driver]

thanks for the details Steve.
Now, I still have same trouble as Nonato. I don't use flak guns as vehicules but I use home made facilities.
what I've noticed is that red flak and flare guns always fire even at 20000ft, no problem about that.
This is not the case with flak guns, I'll have to test further more.

what's the difference between eto_flak and eto_HA_flak?

what's the difference between eto_flak1 and eto_HA_flak1?

what is the maximum altitude at which these gun will fire?

About the a_90mm, is it still the stock one? what is the maximum altitude for this AA gun?

Loic,
The eto_HA flak and eto_HA_flak1 are identical to the eto_flak and eto_flak1 except they have a range above 30,000 ft.

I made no changes to the a_90mm.

The G_37mm_AA gun fires red golfball tracers and has a greatly reduced range from the larger flak guns. Not sure about the absolute range on that one but I think it is about the same as the Ostwind.


When setting up your flak facility be sure and spread them and point them in different directions. If you make a facility with just say two or three guns in a line you will have to alter the "heading" of the facility in MB to insure coverage With a three gun facility in a line it will take a minimum of 4 facilities angled 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees around the target.

Steve

[Led Zeppelin]

The eto_HA flak and eto_HA_flak1 are identical to the eto_flak and eto_flak1 except they have a range above 30,000 ft.
ok so if it's "only' maximum range that is changed and the minimum altutude of 175 ft is the same, I will only use HA ones.


I made no changes to the a_90mm.
it's a shame because England is covered by HAA sites that use these 90mm guns. In a future update, if possible, it would be nice to have them identical to the standard HA guns.


When setting up your flak facility be sure and spread them and point them in different directions. If you make a facility with just say two or three guns in a line you will have to alter the "heading" of the facility in MB to insure coverage With a three gun facility in a line it will take a minimum of 4 facilities angled 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees around the target.
I don't understand this point. As you said, the up limit is limited to 85° (UpLimit="85" in the xdp) but, they can rotate 180° (LeftLimit="180" RightLimit="180" in the xdp) so they should fire whatever the player direction is and wherever the are placed around the facility.


What's the optimal distance from the facility they protect they should be placed? about 1 NM?

[Nonato]

Uploaded. Available when the admin sees it.
Thank you all for the support, patience and help.
Cheers
Non

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4919/dresdenfinal4.jpg

[mongoose]

I seems you have used the latest weapons and effects from ETO which are not yet on general release. To make the mission work, would they not have to be included in the upload??

[Nonato]

James

I used ONLY ETO stuff ALREADY released with update 1.2
I had no access to the new incendiary bombs yet. And even if I had I´d never have used them before the official release.
Can you only imagine what will this mission be after they are released?

Nonato

[mongoose]

Understood.:) Just thought the mission wouldn't work w/o them if you had used them and they weren't in the upload.

[ronnybengt]

upload....upload ....upload....i am sittin´g here ..in the dark....

R

[BeauBrummie]

you'll go blind RB :faint:

[O-1Driver]

Nonato,

Thank you for this mission, all I can say is that it is intense by any standard. Anyone who is a fan of Bomber Command this is a must fly.

I was shot down on the first run but made it home on the second try (barely) I did not leave with full tanks. After running the gauntlet of flak and fighters I then had to land with low clouds and light rain and had to go around on my first approach.

Partner your mission building skills are now as good as I have seen,

Well done.:ernae:

Steve

[Led Zeppelin]

I found how to make the HA flak guns to work over 15000ft every time.

In fact, in the xdp file, the ratelimit have to be changed, from RateLimit="4" to RateLimit="6".

I fly with flak setup as veteran, I don't like snipers flak guns.

Haven't tested a low altitude flight over a terget defended with HA guns setup like this but I suppose this is not a good idea, mission should be build with standart ETO flak (RateLimit="4") for low-medium missions and ETO HA flak guns (RateLimit="6") for high altitude one (over 15000 ft)

[Tailwind]

Nonato,

Partner your mission building skills are now as good as I have seen,

Well done.:ernae:

Steve

There are plenty you haven't seen my friend...

TW

[O-1Driver]

I found how to make the HA flak guns to work over 15000ft every time.

In fact, in the xdp file, the ratelimit have to be changed, from RateLimit="4" to RateLimit="6".

I fly with flak setup as veteran, I don't like snipers flak guns.

Haven't tested a low altitude flight over a terget defended with HA guns setup like this but I suppose this is not a good idea, mission should be build with standart ETO flak (RateLimit="4") for low-medium missions and ETO HA flak guns (RateLimit="6") for high altitude one (over 15000 ft)

Good show Loic, be sure and upload the new guns when you release a new mission.

Steve

[Nonato]

Nonato,

Thank you for this mission, all I can say is that it is intense by any standard. Anyone who is a fan of Bomber Command this is a must fly.

I was shot down on the first run but made it home on the second try (barely) I did not leave with full tanks. After running the gauntlet of flak and fighters I then had to land with low clouds and light rain and had to go around on my first approach.

Partner your mission building skills are now as good as I have seen,

Well done.:ernae:

Steve

Very honoured, Sir.
As I said ..."I'll try to be on the shoulders of Giants".


Non.

[O-1Driver]

There are plenty you haven't seen my friend...

TW

TW,

I know yours are outstanding also, what we really need are some fraps and screen shots of those barn burner missions you guys are flying on line.

Steve

[popsaka]

Wouldn't it be possible to have 1 or 2 blokes join multiplayer just to do capture? (flying like a Non-plane?)

[Tailwind]

Wouldn't it be possible to have 1 or 2 blokes join multiplayer just to do capture? (flying like a Non-plane?)

We post PICs regularly plus I posted a you tube video. Look in my signature. I am not going to hijack this thread by posting pics in it. Look in the ETO IP thread if you want to see more.

TW

[wichner]

Thank you for this great mission.

[grizzly50]

Thank you for this great mission.

:kilroy:Wichner, yep, Era 5. Historic, too, I believe.:d

[loverboy1]

read this thread .....where does one attain this missions- ro missions on dresden bombing camaoign ,, i cant seem to download off site , assume its not yet reactivated


tks

LB/JOSHUA

[Nonato]

LB

PM your e-mail address me and I'll send you a copy.


Nonato

[BeauBrummie]

I'd like a copy too please Non:wavey:

Beau