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DauntlessDriver546
March 23rd, 2009, 16:31
His P-51C is killer! But there aren't any Pacific skins for her...

Were there P-51Cs in the Pacific Theater? I could have sworn there were some... :help:

IF that is true, are there any Pacific skin sets for her?

p14u2nv
March 31st, 2009, 18:49
I have seen pics of P-51's in the Pacific however to the best of my knowledge they were aircraft transferred from the ETO after VE Day. Not sure about specific skins for the Pacific though.

bearcat241
March 31st, 2009, 21:13
P-51's were active in China, Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines as early as December 1944 and January 1945 - a good four to five months before VE. Some better known units were the 82nd, 110th, 118th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons, 14th Army Air Force, 1944-1945. They all transitioned from the P-40 to the Mustang around in 01/45, flying Charlies and Deltas. Even though they were primarily trained for recce work, they raised a lot of hell in bomber escorts, airfield strikes and fighter sweeps around active Jap bases in Indochina and the Philippines.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/bearcat241/Demo%20shots/Snooks_0071.jpg

But i'm not familiar with any PTO paints for Wozza's model.

Pips
March 31st, 2009, 23:17
The P-51 first appeared in Asia in late September 1943 with the arrival in India of the 311th Fighter Group. The unit was equipped with a mix of A-36's and P-51A's. It's first real test came in November '43 when the unit was moved to Bengal to escort B-24's on a series of raids to Rangoon in Burma. Things went badly for the Unit, it losing two on the 25th, four on the 27th (including the commander of the 311th, Colonel Melton), three on the 30th and five on the 3rd December - all to Zero's of Air Group 331.

The veteren 23rd Fighter Group was the next to receive P-51A's early November '43, and flew it's first P-51 mission to Formosa on 23 November. It started converting to the P-51B from 3 June '44 onwards. It's first mission with the 'B' was on 26 June.

The 1st Air Commando Group arrived in India in mid December equipped also with the P-51A. It commenced ops in early January '44, with primary emphasis on bombing and strafing missions. It played a key role supporting Wingate's incursion into Burma in March 1944. It was the first unit in the CBI to receive the 'B' model, receiving 5 in April '44. In May '44 the Unit converted to P-47D Thunderbolt's.

The P-51C made it's appearence in the CBI on 11 September, being first allocated to the 75th FS, 23rd FG.

Other units that flew the P-51 in the CBI and the Pacific were the 8th Reconnaissance Group and the 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group.

It was late in 1944 before the Mustang made it's first appearance in the Pacific. First to arrive was the 3rd Air Commando in late November '44, moving to Leyte, Philippines on 7 January 1945.

The 15th FG (equipped with P-51D's) arrived in theatre on March 6, 1945 landing on Iwo Jima, even though the island was not as yet classed as secure. CAP's started immediately and , on March 11, the Group began flying missions against airfields against the islands of Chichi Jima and Haha Jima.

The 21st Fighter Group joined the 15th on Iwo Jima on 23rd March. The first VLR mission flown by P-51's on Iwo occurred in April 7 1945. A total of 108 P-51's from both groups participated in the mission against the Nakajima aircraft factory at Tokyo. Seventeen fighters aborted for various reasons and one was lost the EA, in return the P-51's claimedtwenty one aircraft shot down.

The 506th Fighter Group joined the others at Iwo Jima in April 1945, flying it's first mission against the Bonins on 3 May.

Other units to operate in the Pacific were the 35th Fighter Group, receiving P-51's whilst based on Luzon in the Philippines in March 1945. It moved to Okinawa in June. And the 348th Fighter Group, which converted from P-47's to P-51's whilst on Luzon in March 1945. It moved to the Ie Shima in the Ryukyus in July.

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 05:01
Thanks Pips...that info could be be useful for a researching future late-war campaigns. Looking backwards to the start of addon US missions and camps for CFS2-Pacific/CBI, the Mustang is the only premier USAAC fighter not featured yet in anything. Speaking of USAAC only, i have camps and missions featuring the P-36, P-39, P-38, P-40 and P-47 (FDG2_P-47D-23 / 348th Fighter Group *private modification*), but i have yet to see an addon P-51 camp or mission pack.

Some years ago i started a little private project to "re-write" Jagdflieger's 'Defense of Japan' campaign and Ian Fletcher's 'Home Defense' campaign' addons (both Japanese-side), converting the player to 'US' flying the P-51D in escort and VLR missions from Iwo and Okinawa. I got side-tracked with a loooong run of converting and modding aircraft and never finished these campaigns. It would be an interesting revisitation at some point in the not-so-distant future. This thread is a good restart...

************************************************** ************************************************** ***


Sorry DD, in post #3 i said i'm not aware of any Wozza 51/PTO repaints. I meant to say Lucarny P-51 PTO repaints.

Smashing Time
April 1st, 2009, 05:31
according to my sources...
The first operational Mustangs in the Pacific theater were F-6D's assigned, in late 44, to the 82nd Tac R squadron of the 71st Reconnaissance Group, stationed at San Jose Field in the Philippines. Combat was encountered in January 1945. There after 'D' models were assigned to various FG's So to answer the main question, no 'C' models were operational in the PTO.
:kilroy:

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 05:44
Quote: "There after 'D' models were assigned to various FG's So to answer the main question, no 'C' models were operational in the PTO."

Hmmm...oh well, guess i can disregard these then. :whistle:



http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesHistory/EarthquakeMcGoon/P51CMustangDrawing.jpg

This is a drawing of a 118th TRS P-51C Mustang piloted by Capt. Ray Crowell, Chengkung, early 1945. I show so you get a sense for the Black Lightning nose art. Courtesy of Nick King. Presented by CBI History (http://www.cbi-history.com/part_ib.html#9).


http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesHistory/EarthquakeMcGoon/P51CSuichuan.jpg
118th TRS P-51C, Suichuan, China, January 1945. Photo contributed by Boub Bourlier and presented by ArmyAirForces.com (http://forum.armyairforces.com/photo.aspx?apage=1&asort=1&albumID=2&page=3#)


http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesHistory/EarthquakeMcGoon/P51sLaohwangping.jpg
118th TRS P-51s on the flightline at Laohwangping, China, June 1945. Photo contributed by Bob Bourlier and presented by ArmyAirForces.com (http://forum.armyairforces.com/photo.aspx?apage=1&asort=1&albumID=2&page=3#). There is fantastic photography at this site of the 118th TRS from training in the US to the war in the CBI.

Smashing Time
April 1st, 2009, 06:51
I thought China was the CBI theater? the PTO is considerd a different 'theater'

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 07:12
I thought China was the CBI theater?

Before the retaking of Manila, Allied operations in Korea, Burma, India, China, Thailand, Formosa, Indonesia and the Philippines were all considered one campaign theater, separate from the South Pacific and Micronesia. And that's how the Japanese fought the war too. But this didn't prevent Allied command from ordering P51 and P-38 VLR missions from China into Indonesia and the Philippines long before Singapore and Manila were retaken. After securing Indonesia and the Philippines, Allied South Pacific operations naturally merged into the CBI as the island-hopping fight moved closer to mainland Japan. At that point the Allied air bases in eastern Asia and Indochina served as staging for strikes and sweeps on Formosa and the Ryukyu Islands, as well as the China Sea and Sea of Japan. Fighter squads from these bases also escorted B-29's to Japan from China. So throughout 1945 we can clearly see the PTO and CBITO overlapping into one larger, regional campaign rather than two separates, with Asia Air supporting Pacific campaigning and Pacific Air supporting Asian ground/air mop-ups and tying up the transfer of Japanese resources from Indonesia-Pacific holdings to support their failing continental Asian campaign.

Smashing Time
April 1st, 2009, 10:54
I guess you could argue it both ways. But for the most part war books break out the CBI from the PTO in general operations till the end of hostilities. If you include the Philippines as a CBI/PTO then the rest of the Pacific is still a stand alone PTO. The P-51 book I referenced has the 82nd Tac R squadron as a PTO operation. ... I love to argue. :costumes:

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 11:06
The reality is that where the books draw the theater lines doesn't matter at all to us today, especially to the men who fought on both sides from Asia to Australia, Malaya to Midway. To them it was all one BIG, overextended mess that would see them posted in Sumatra or India one day and next week in New Guinea or French Polynesia. They didn't have the luxury of "arguing" theater lines - just kill or be killed anywhere in the hemisphere. As the offspring of their generation, we can split hairs over what historians say, but the general chronological flow and movement of men, hardware and materials over the conflict are undeniable from start to finish and the natural overlapping is painfully obvious.

There was no one questioning whether a P-51C in China should be allowed to "cross over" and fly a mission over Leyte during those days...

Smashing Time
April 1st, 2009, 11:09
I agree on that!

Shadow Wolf 07
April 1st, 2009, 11:16
BC: where did that plane in your first picture come from? :ernae:

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 12:22
Its a WOP conversion WIP...

Shadow Wolf 07
April 1st, 2009, 13:11
Its a WOP conversion WIP...

ummm... translation pls? If it's not downloadable forget about it though. :ernae:

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 13:18
I don't want to belabor this topic, but just to illustrate the overlapping PTO-CBITO "backscratching" point made earlier, here's a background outline from just one notable PTO squadron, the 348th FG (Neel Kirby's unit). Note the Philippines and Ie Shima postings. These coincided with the dating of their action reports of the China defensive/offensives. They skipped working in P-39's and P-40's and flew P-47 razorbacks from their PTO debut in '43 until getting P-51's for the Philippines and Ie Shima. This shows that while stationed at technically PTO locations, they flew support missions within the technical CBI area of operations.

Stations Flown From:

Port Moresby, New Guinea (June '43 - Dec '43)

Finschhafen, New Guinea (Dec '43 - March '44)

Saidor, New guinea (March '44 - May '44)

Wakde (May '44 - Aug'44)

Noemfoor (ug '44 - Nov '44)

Leyte (Nov '44 - Feb '45)

San Marcelino, Luzon (Feb '45 - May '45)

Floridablanca, Luzon (may '45 - July '45)

Ie Shima (July - end WWII)


Campaigns Flown in:

Air Offensive, Japan

China Defensive

New Guinea

Bismarck Archipelago

Western Pacific (waters off southeast Asia)

Leyte

Luzon

China Offensive

This isn't intended to say they flew 'Charlie' Mustangs instead 'Delta's', but it indicates a standard of overlapping theater units and operations in the region to get the job done. If this one unit did so, how unusual would it have been for the 118th TRS P-51C's or any others from China bases to support "PTO" offensives?

bearcat241
April 1st, 2009, 13:19
ummm... translation pls? If it's not downloadable forget about it though. :ernae:

FS9 Wings of Power conversion "work-in-progress"...

p14u2nv
April 1st, 2009, 17:26
[QUOTE=bearcat241;149973]P-51's were active in China, Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines as early as December 1944 and January 1945 - a good four to five months before VE. QUOTE]

All I could speak of was the pictures that I was shown in an old photo album of some aircraft transferred to the PTO from the ETO. This was per my second cousin who flew P-51b's and P-51c's in both Europe AND the Pacific.

Ravenna
April 1st, 2009, 18:52
FS9 Wing of Power conversion "work-in-progress"...
Now you've got me salivating BC!

Pips
April 1st, 2009, 23:54
It's worthwhile to bear in mind that the 'theatre borders' artifically created by the American Joint Chiefs was with the aim of streamlining and improving command, control and logistics within zones of influence, as a well as allocating responsibility and accountability to theatre commanders.

It was in no way meant to restrict mission cross boarder incursions if the theatre commander considered such action was worthwhile. Which with the advent of the P-51 was fairly commonplace in and around the Philippines, Hong Kong, Formosa, Singapore, Burma and the China coastline.

miamieagle
April 2nd, 2009, 08:34
My impression is that the P51 was not as succesful in the Pacific Theater as it was in the ETO. While it was superior to most Japanese late war AC it never had the Kill ratio that it achieve in the ETO. In a show I saw in the Military Channell a show call Great Planes and the Host claim that the P51 had a ratio of kills against German fighters of 11 to 1. WoW! now thats impresive!:ernae:

bearcat241
April 2nd, 2009, 09:23
My impression is that the P51 was not as succesful in the Pacific Theater as it was in the ETO.

Don't believe everything you hear without reasonable proof...



While it was superior to most Japanese late war AC it never had the Kill ratio that it achieve in the ETO.

And what ratio did they give you for P51's against Japan?

Ghostrider
April 2nd, 2009, 11:09
And statistics can be so misleading. I doubt very many Mustangs were shot down by the few skilled pilots Japan had left towards the end, and by the same token, were their targets becoming fewer and farther between? What kind of missions were they predominantly flying? It's kind of apples to oranges. Is he a great quarterback, or does he just have 2 astounding receivers and the best offensive line ever? The world may never know.

miamieagle
April 2nd, 2009, 13:37
You are right Bear. There is no proof that the P51 had a better ratio of kills in the ETO than in the Pacific. like I said its only a impression. Everything said or written about WW2 should always be taken with a grain of salt. Even official documents are not always totaly truthful. The truth is the Allies won the war and Axis lost the war and we are all been able to live in a better World because of it.

This is just my opnion!:wavey:

smg13
April 19th, 2009, 03:29
Hey Bear, how did you get the tanks off the model of WOP Flying Undertaker? I am also doing my own conversion and I can't seem to get them off, the model always converts with them on. any hints will be apreciated. Thanks!

by the way, to add my two cents to the discussion about how effective the P-51 was in the PTO... the grandfather of a gf of mine back in college told me when I met him that they, the Japanese pilots flying sorties against Amercian raids in Japan, where really looking forward to mixing it up with the famous P-51. This mindset lasted only a few weeks... to many of them got shot down by it. He said the plane he most respected from the US was the P-51. I don't know how much this adds up to the argument of how effective the P-51 was in Japan, but at least in the mind of one pilot it was the best his enemies could throw at him.

bearcat241
April 19th, 2009, 12:29
Well my man, it can only be done for real in scasm, and that's quite a leap for a conversion rook. You have to convert the mdl to a scasm file and edit it internally in text form. The good news is that the tanks are animated in the FS9 mdl, making them easy to identify in scasm code and disable. Because they're animated parts, disabling also kills them visually.

Another commonly used "external" approach is to try repainting the texture that colors the tanks with an alpha channel that renders them invisible. It works OK in most cases, but you still see the shadows on the ground in screenies and sometimes the invisible material of the tanks still interferes with mounted stores on the wings. I prefer the more complex scasm approach for a clean break from the tanks. Either way its not something that can be done with a simple 1-2-3 tip.

Not to digress, but your comments regarding the vet Jap pilot's viewpoint makes me wonder more about how their impressions of the Bearcat would have shaked out had they faced it also. In performance, it was as good as or even better than the Mustang by some accounts.

OBIO
April 19th, 2009, 12:53
FOr Wozza's P-51D, I did a few Iwo Jima skins. And for Bismarck13's Early Mustang Collection, I did some CBI skins.

OBIO

smg13
April 19th, 2009, 13:19
Thanks for the info, it is very useful... I was thinking figuring out how to get those tanks, or rather the animation of them "on" or "off", to be linked to wing folding or hoook down, so they can stay with the model if I wanted; or just get them off. I am still learning scasm so it is not easy for me...

The Mustang, and also the Spitfire, where very popular with the Japanese pilots is what I was told, because they "represented" to them the best the Allies could make and fly. He told me the Navy planes where all big, blue, and mean but he wasn't to scared of them. I asked him because I am a Hellcat fan and wanted to hear stories of him tangling with it. Only the Mustang and the Spitfire made in him a strong impression.... even though he never saw a Spitfire! I only got to talk to this pilot once, and only for an afternoon when I visited Japan, but he gave me the impression that the Japanese thought the Mustang was unbetable.

If the Bearcat had come into play it would have been a turkey shoot. I don't think I would have talked to "gandpa" fifty years later :-p

smg13
April 19th, 2009, 18:15
I managed for now to make the tanks "invisible" as you said with alpha texturing... thanks for the idea.

I am wondering if you have managed to make the gauges come up in the VC? I know you can't use the cab files of the original... so I am trying to replace them with gauges from stock cfs2, but they don't show up.... any hints bear? Thanks.

As soon as the downloads are working I'll check out that p-51D skin Obio; I like your work a lot, so I am sure that skin is great.

bearcat241
April 19th, 2009, 19:44
As with all conversions that use FS9 cab gauges in 2D and VC, you have to replace with CFS2 compatibles. The tools for this job is Cfgedit and/or FS Panel Studio. Do what you can...send a PM if you get stuck.