A word about "cleanliness" in flight simulation.....

[Navy Chief]

Or rather, the lack of "un-cleanliness".

My friend, Fred Sanders, has never gotten involved with flight simulation. He retired from a career dealing with aviation, but I haven't successfully talked him into FS yet. But am working on it.

But I send him screenshots on occasion for him to appreciate. He comments often how "sanitary" all the models look; specifically the US Navy aircraft.

Although there are a few "dirty" repaints available, for the most part - flight sim aircraft are indeed clean.

Is it more difficult to make textures dirty, rather than clean? Most USN aircraft, especially carrier types, are usually filthy with hydraulic fluid leaks, exhaust gas streaks, etc.... Aircraft carrier decks are NEVER clean except when the ship pulls out from port for deployment. The deck stays filthy until the aircraft flyoff for home again.

I have no clue how hard it would be to make USN aircraft and carriers the "filthy beasts" they are in real life, but any designers willing to give it a go?

Thanks.

Chief

[tigisfat]

Or rather, the lack of "un-cleanliness".

My friend, Fred Sanders, has never gotten involved with flight simulation. He retired from a career dealing with aviation, but I haven't successfully talked him into FS yet. But am working on it.

But I send him screenshots on occasion for him to appreciate. He comments often how "sanitary" all the models look; specifically the US Navy aircraft.

Although there are a few "dirty" repaints available, for the most part - flight sim aircraft are indeed clean.

Is it more difficult to make textures dirty, rather than clean? Most USN aircraft, especially carrier types, are usually filthy with hydraulic fluid leaks, exhaust gas streaks, etc.... Aircraft carrier decks are NEVER clean except when the ship pulls out from port for deployment. The deck stays filthy until the aircraft flyoff for home again.

I have no clue how hard it would be to make USN aircraft and carriers the "filthy beasts" they are in real life, but any designers willing to give it a go?

Thanks.

Chief

It is harder, because it implies an added level of detail beyond that of simply painting the aircraft. Frank Safranek was putting out pretty good dirty (and clean) repaints of Alphasim products, and for the navy guys thereare the captainsim two seat hornets and a few F-14 repaints.

[GT182]

Yep, I always thought the same way. Why are they so clean?

There are guys that do repaints for IL-2 and IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 that make weathered skins. These look almost real once ingame. I'll bet there's a few guys here at SOH that can do repaints for FSX with the weathered look that have done them for IL-2.

Maybe even ask in the IL-2 forum here at SOH Chief. If they have a TeamSpeak account they use I bet they'd even help with a tutorial that way. I couldn't repaint or reskin anything but I'd like to learn someday.

[Navy Chief]

I would like to see a dirty carrier deck....THAT would be realism!!!

NC

[FlyTexas]

I like the pic of everyone with their push brooms. That'd make a nice Navy enlistment poster. :costumes:

Brian

[Panther_99FS]

Most USN aircraft, especially carrier types, are usually filthy with hydraulic fluid leaks, exhaust gas streaks, etc....
Thanks.

Chief

Better not EVER, EVER, EVER, let Helldiver read this...:kilroy::kilroy::kilroy:

[cheezyflier]

i had been begging for some repainters to make dirtybird paints for many of the default fs planes as well as the carenado cessnas. i'm not even a r/l pilot and the cleanliness seems weird to me.

[Piglet]

Most of my planes have the "dirty piglet" treatment. Ya should see some of the planes I work on at work....:faint:

[AckAck]

I thought someone (here?) pitched a fit about Pablo Diaz' dirty F-14, and how they would never be allowed to get that dirty, etc.

Although I have to say that many of the pictures I've seen don't exhibit the levels of spotlessness that are supposedly maintained, nor have I seen even an airshow display aircraft as clean as some texture sets.

That said, I think they should have some level of dirt on them, and I try to put some on the paints I have done. Most don't reach the level of Pablo's F-14, but neither are they completely spotless.

Brian

[PRB]

Well, I’m a weirdo I guess, because I like clean planes. Some real life planes actually are clean, you know… It isn’t that I dislike like paints that depict dirty planes, because many of them are/were, especially the combat types; it’s just that I don’t get turned off by paints that depict clean planes. I like realistic looking paints. Faded paint due to weather and years is fine, but I don’t need it filthy.
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This gets into the whole issue of so-called “photo-real” paints. I once read an article online about this by a sim painter. I wish I could find the article again, because it relates perfectly to this thread. Basically this person hated what is today known as “photo-real”, the process of using photos of real planes to make textures for sim planes. This practice results in textures with “shadows” and “reflections” that were present in the real plane at the time the photos were taken, but don’t change in the sim when the sim’s light angle changes.
<o:p></o:p>
To the writer, the term “photo-real”, originally meant creating textures that look so good, they can be confused with photos of the real thing. It did not in any way mean using photos of the real thing to create textures. This is difficult to pull off, and requires more talent that I possess, but when done with skill results in textures that look “real”, and use the sim’s light engine to make the reflections and shadows, placed where they should be given the current lighting conditions.
<o:p></o:p>
Real planes, even clean and shiny ones, show color variations across the whole plane due to lighting conditions and reflections. Perhaps if more of these sorts of textures were out there, the less complaining about dirty planes we would see?
<o:p></o:p>
Just a thought, worth what you paid for it.
<o:p></o:p>
Oh, and I agree about Helldiver. He’s been over this before, regarding navy planes in the days before jets!

[TARPSBird]

Since we mentioned USN aircraft, here's a couple pics of RF-8G Crusaders that show both "factory fresh" clean and not so clean due to daily use and corrosion control efforts. Aircraft 601 is enroute to USS Oriskany following rework at NAS Atsugi, Japan. Nice new paint with no touch-ups, hand prints, etc. (at least not yet, hehe). Aircraft 503 is off USS Coral Sea and landing at Atsugi. This bird was in my detachment and we had been flying a lot of missions with it. You can see almost every single panel line on the aircraft, mainly due to the different shades of gray spray paint used to cover dings/scrapes and places where the base paint has been ground down while removing corrosion. A type of brush-on preservative called (spelling?) Procotone was also used on stress fasteners to protect them from corrosion. This stuff was brown and smelled like kids' crayons.
You often saw rows of brown dots on planes where the Procotone was brushed on the fasteners.
It's pretty easy to add this type of "dirty stuff" to a plane by editing the base textures with a new partially transparent layer containing the dirt and paint effects. I suggest making it a bit transparent so you can still see the panel lines and other details. Find some good pics of real aircraft for examples.

[wombat666]

Most of my planes have the "dirty piglet" treatment. Ya should see some of the planes I work on at work....:faint:

OT: Nice avatar Tim ............ Claudia is another very fine Aussie export.
:applause:

[jmig]

Better not EVER, EVER, EVER, let Helldiver read this...:kilroy::kilroy::kilroy:

:costumes:

[GT182]

The paint chipped "dirty" ones I think that would look great are the WWII a/c. I don't think they worried about them being clean or carrying a 100% perfect paint job. They were used to their fullest and if you look a photos of them it shows. Even some of the civilian a/c I see today aren't 100%. And some are just plain neglected.

[JoeW]

I don't think I need to say more!

[aeromed202]

Oh my word YES!! Dirty birds in my opinion give a quality of realism that can't be beat. Just as one fine example consider the appeal of the Boeing helo repainted by AckAck as a grimy fire fighter for Columbia Helicopters below.


Clean is nice but dirty, you can almost smell the exhaust!

I have also heard that this look is very hard to achieve, but the results are astounding. I say clean and shiny is normal for the corporate jets, waxed to perfection. But out in the world dirt and oil rule. My blessings on those who have the talent and patience to make all these wonderful addons, with a an extra one for those who create these unique textures :jump:

[JimC1702]

Count me in as one who likes "dirty" paints for FS aircraft, at least a slightly weathered look. It seems much more realistic.

Jim

[Navy Chief]

Tailhook squadron aircraft are never clean while on deployment; leastwise, not even close to what they are, when operating from shore bases. It's impossible to keep them as clean. The battle against corrrosion is neverending. The aircraft are setup on a wash cycle of every 28 days. Quite often, fresh water is not available, due to the catapults being the top priority. So (unless things have changed) the aircraft are "washed", using spray cans of aircraft foam cleaner (used to be called spray "Turco). Spray can cleaning is a stop-gap measure at best. You end up with an aircraft with multi-shades of gray dirt. When the aircraft goes into a 40-day corrosion inspection, all the various shops are assigned areas to inspect and clean. When they finish, the actual Corrosion Control work center does an overall spray/spot painting of aircraft. Not a depot-level job. They can't do that. But again, the end result is an aircraft which (although cleaner, by anti-corrosion standards) still looks mottled. The coloring looks uneven.

Often, when a carrier pulls into port, a lot of the aircraft will get washed on the flight deck. The squadron personnel (unlucky enough to be on duty) will get tasked....

These pictures are just some cool shots I found. I especially like the VQ-1 EP-3C tail sign.......heh,, heh

And the evening picture of the carrier is awesome. The light from the hangar bay is unusual looking.

Chief

[Toastmaker]

Didn't you guys get the groundcrew module from MS when you bought your copy of FS9 ?? (you DID buy your copy, right ?)

Just press Ctrl-F5 and the crew chief runs out with a bottle of windex and a rag. If you press Ctrl-F5-2, you can bitch at him about all the dirt at the wingroots. . .


:applause:

[Sascha66]

It is quite easy to "dirty-up" a paint job using the original "clean files" if you know photoshop and have some good photos to start off with.

Using the burn tool to darken sooty or discolored areas and daubing specific spots with a semitransparent brush and greenish/brownish color you can whip up some wear and tear in no time!

Using the dodge tool in combination with the burn tool you can create highlights and shadows.

These techniques can turn a "plastic" model into a real plane in an afternoon.

The TU-154 images attached took me about 5 hours to do including extra details which I just copied out of the photos and pasted onto the appropiate spots on the skin with some basic color adaption.

[TARPSBird]

NC, I like your shot of the Theodore Roosevelt passing Gibraltar at night. One of those "secret" departures from the Med under cover of darkness that the Russians aren't supposed to know about! :d

[Helldiver]

Look, I can only talk about my personal experience. A carrier airplane had between 3 to 5 months use and then it was shipped back to A&R. You can only slam something on to a hard surface so many times and it starts to loosen up. So the airplanes never got that old. Now any chips and scratches that were not touched up got the plane captain’s leading chief boot in his tailbone. I'm not kidding either.
There was one source of dirt and that was oil stains on the belly. Air-cooled engines are set up loose so that oil will be consumed and carry off heat. Typically there would be a 12 gallon oil reservoir. A typical flight would use four to six gallons of oil. Usually it was during down time that this mess got cleaned off with Carbon Tetrachloride, which I understand is outlawed for some unknown reason.
Now what takes place in this, no LSO, angled deck Navy with all the jet aircraft, steam catapults and women mechanics running around is anybody’s guess.
I can only say that after 6 to 8 weeks out to sea even the worse ones would look good. Salt Peter only takes you so far.
Make them as dirty, filthy as you want.
Just don’t let me see them.

[Navy Chief]

I can't speak for the condition of USN aircraft on carriers currently. It's been years since I was at sea. But I'm sure it is still a neverending battle with corrosion problems. I won't EVEN get on the subject of women aboard carriers. Nope, not gonna touch it.

On the subject of no LSO's on carriers now. Have I missed something? They still have them, don't they?

NC

[Piglet]

If it's built by man, it WILL weather, wear, and need maintanence.
It's the laws of chemistry and physics. Also, on FS models, one has to also consider the effects of lighting, shininess, surface textures... on thier models. In FSX, one can use bumping, specular, and reflective settings
What I hate most on FS paint jobs is large areas one one pure, solid color.
Even the nicest composite smooth plane will have some details, wear, or lighting patterns to break up the monotonous color areas.

[wombat666]

Usually it was during down time that this mess got cleaned off with Carbon Tetrachloride, which I understand is outlawed for some unknown reason.

It's highly toxic and carcanogenic HD ....... :kilroy:

[Brian_Gladden]

Seeing as I used to do aircraft detailing for a living, I can tell you stuff....

Out of the seven planes of the fleet that I had to keep clean (Spotless actually) the worst were the four King Air C-90's. P&W PT-6 engines are not clean burning. Combined with the fact that the exhaust stacks are nearly at the front of the airplane....

The easiest was thankfully also the largest. The Challenger 604 while quite large, didn't fly anywhere near as often and a good old wash usually took care of the exterior. The interior was so large (6 feet high and nearly 8 wide) that cleaning the interior was like cleaning my living room. Upright vaccuum cleaner, dust the woodwork etc.

Every six months or so, I'd have to take a buffer and special cleaner to the paint of the King Air's because even if you washed them every flight, after a while the white paint started to turn a little brown from the exhaust. I usually did it when they were in for their 100 hour maintenance cycle.

The small jet was easy on the exterior (Citation Encore. Basically a hot rodded C-II) but the interior was a pain. I'm a big guy and crawling around the interior cleaning this plane was a chore. I won't even get into describing the contortions I had to go through to service the Lav.


Brian

[Milton Shupe]

"Aged" and dirty are very hard to do well ... here are two we did a few years ago that we were just playing with but decided to release. They are amateurish but folks loved flying them ... and bathing afterwards. The cockpit was rather grundgy. :wiggle:

More shots here: http://www.flightsimonline.com/ac500/bush.htm

"Lands End Cargo" also referred to as "Hangar Queen" was done by André Folkers; the other dirtied up by BC dirt tracks by Scott Thomas who also aged the cockpit.

[Helldiver]

Look Tim, after 3 to 5 months use, wouldn't your 2009 Lamborgini still look good?
Now after hitting that deck hard enough times, the landing gear trunnions might be loose and a oleo might be collapsed and the hook might have let loose. Not to mention the engine mounts that have shifted. But it still would be sparkling, wouldn't it?
As far as Carbon Tet being all them bad things, the same could be said if you ate enough Chocolate. It was a very good degreaser. We used to play with Mercury and turn pennys into silver.
I used both Carbon Tet and Mercury and am still alive and kicking at 80 plus years. Come to think about it, I also ate a lot of lead pencils.

[Panther_99FS]

Come to think about it, I also ate a lot of lead pencils.

:icon_lol:...

[jhefner]

"Aged" and dirty are very hard to do well

All this talk about aging and dirtying remind me of when I used to play with model railroading; "weathering" was a subject unto itself.

I agree with Milton; doing convincing aging and dirty is hard. Unless the plane was a bush plane that was always out in the field and never got washed (and even those rarely look that grungy in photographs); there was a reason for a spot here and a paint chip there. Like Helldiver said, you have an engine leaking oil; or it had a wrench dropped on it, or was bumped by a baggage cart or was in a hail storm. Just applying stains and paint chips everwhere doesn't look very convincing to me; overdone, it looks no better than no weathering at all. I think it should be very subtile in most cases.

-James

[cheezyflier]

true. but seeing bush planes and freighters with no wear and tear, and no dirt at all just (to me) seems a little off.

i was lucky enough to download the repaint for 206 floater from carenado with the non-red interior. when i saw the scum line on the float i actually did a :woot: right here in my chair. i fly that one more than any other skin for the 206.

[wombat666]

I used both Carbon Tet and Mercury and am still alive and kicking at 80 plus years. Come to think about it, I also ate a lot of lead pencils.

I rest my case ................... :173go1:

[warbird861]

We have bit more dirty paints in the upcoming Aerosoft Catalina.

Not advertising or anything :whistle:

[JoeW]

Look Tim, after 3 to 5 months use, wouldn't your 2009 Lamborgini still look good?
Now after hitting that deck hard enough times, the landing gear trunnions might be loose and a oleo might be collapsed and the hook might have let loose. Not to mention the engine mounts that have shifted. But it still would be sparkling, wouldn't it?
As far as Carbon Tet being all them bad things, the same could be said if you ate enough Chocolate. It was a very good degreaser. We used to play with Mercury and turn pennys into silver.
I used both Carbon Tet and Mercury and am still alive and kicking at 80 plus years. Come to think about it, I also ate a lot of lead pencils.

I used to build custom rifles, The M1 Carbine was one. Not much you can do except strip the lenseed oil off and reshape some parts. I used Carbon Tet mixed with whiting to remove the lenseed oil from the stock. It took several applications to do that.. The result of that was I got carbon tet poisoning. I had a fever and was throwing up. and the Doc couldn't figgure out what it was. After a while he asked if I had been using some chemicals and I told him carbon tet.
He told me to stop and to never use that again and I did that. I went to tri-chlore ethlene and whiting.
That was just as bad ... got sick on that too. I never found a safe chemical to use for that.

[n4gix]

Realistically, how clean would even a large corporate jet look after a 2500nm flight? :whistle:

Boeing's Challenger fleet (five a/c) are based here at KGYY. They are washed after every roundtip flight by the hanger crew.

[Brian_Gladden]

Realistically, how clean would even a large corporate jet look after a 2500nm flight? :whistle:

Boeing's Challenger fleet (five a/c) are based here at KGYY. They are washed after every roundtip flight by the hanger crew.


Depends on where they flew it and if it sat outside. Challengers are very clean airplanes. Very few leaks and the dirtiest spot was the area around the APU exhaust. The rest of the airplane was washed with a soap similar to standard car wash but made for aircraft. If it dried on it would still rinse off. I used a 16 foot telescoping brush to reach about half the vertical tail. once a year, we'd use the man lift and wash it more thoroughly.

The Citation encore was pretty easy to wash. The Two Citation Excels ware a bit bigger but not hard to take care of.

The King Air's are a pain. They flew the most, leaked the most and had exposed rivet heads everywhere (The jets are very, very smooth) Waxing a King Air was an all day job for two people. Took two and a half days if we needed to buff it out too. And these were small C-90B's Thank goodness we didn't have a 200 or a 350.

The other thing we had to do was buff out the leading edges on the Jets with heated wings. Properly done, you could shave in the reflection. I also had to clean and re dress the de-ice boots on the King airs. After I had figured out a system, I could do one in about three hours, including the vertical tail.

This is a shot of the old Challenger we had.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Canadair-CL-600-2B16-Challenger/0577604/L/

And this is the one they bought just before I left...

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Canadair-CL-600-2B16-Challenger/1124529/L/


Brian

And I see this is my 200th post too :-)

[Navy Chief]

Back before the Navy outlawed a lot of chemicals for cleaning aircraft systems, we used to clean aircond. systems ducting with methyl-ethyl-ketone, without any type of respiratory protection. I don't EVEN want to know what the long term health effects it will have on me. Probably better NOT to know!

NC

[Willy]

We used to use dry cleaning fluid (name escapes me) for degreasing and cleaning diesel engine parts back in the 70s in the Navy. We'd use washtubs of the stuff and set whole cylinder heads in there. Not only would it remove the oil and grease, but it'd take the paint off as well. One guy that worked with me spilled a couple of gallons of the stuff on his lap and later said when it was all over that his privates just wouldn't stop burning.

Bare metal is also something I've found difficult to do correctly in FS. I can get it either very dull or highly polished easily enough, but getting some thing in between can be tricky. The Merc Air paint I did for Milton's Beech 18 took me several tries to get it like I wanted with just a hint of shine. But as for normal weathering, etc on painted surfaces, I've yet to get a good handle on that. Part of my problem is that I've yet to figure out what to do with the layers in Paint Shop Pro and end up just working with the complete bitmap.

[Helldiver]

Navy Chief, I believe they use some system of lights for a LSO. Too many jets turned the live ones into a crispy critters.
The sooner they go back to recip engines and props the better off they'll be. - And get rid of them females getting everybody randy at the same time.

[Navy Chief]

And get rid of them females getting everybody randy at the same time.

THAT is but one of the reasons I retired at exactly 20 years. Another reason was the lack of respect for authority by many of the young sailors reporting for duty. When I first came into the Navy, you didn't dare talk back to a superior. A Petty Officer First Class was considered almost God, and a Chief WAS God! By the time I retired, I had to deal with more than a few boots who not only would question my orders to them, but quite often would tell me to $%#& off. Needless to say, I took immediate corrective action. But the Navy removed a lot of the power of the Chief to discipline now.

As for aircraft cleanliness, I just thought of something else. Before the USN changed to the "tactical gray" paint scheme, the aircraft were MUCH easier to clean. The dirt and grime washed off of the glossy surfaces without having to scrub as much. The tactical gray is much more porous. Aircraft washes take a lot longer, and the end result isn't as effective, I don't think.

NC

[Willy]

THAT is but one of the reasons I retired at exactly 20 years. Another reason was the lack of respect for authority by many of the young sailors reporting for duty. When I first came into the Navy, you didn't dare talk back to a superior. A Petty Officer First Class was considered almost God, and a Chief WAS God! By the time I retired, I had to deal with more than a few boots who not only would question my orders to them, but quite often would tell me to $%#& off. Needless to say, I took immediate corrective action. But the Navy removed a lot of the power of the Chief to discipline now.

NC

Pretty much the same here when I decided to call it a career at the 20 years and a couple of days mark. It got to where to even attempt to correct one of the "little darlings" required a paper trail several weeks long.

[tigisfat]

THAT is but one of the reasons I retired at exactly 20 years. Another reason was the lack of respect for authority by many of the young sailors reporting for duty. When I first came into the Navy, you didn't dare talk back to a superior. A Petty Officer First Class was considered almost God, and a Chief WAS God! By the time I retired, I had to deal with more than a few boots who not only would question my orders to them, but quite often would tell me to $%#& off. Needless to say, I took immediate corrective action. But the Navy removed a lot of the power of the Chief to discipline now.Boss, the more I think about it, I think every generation's said that about the next. If they were all right and we were getting worse, my generation would be so clueless it'd be insane.

I'm positive that if I keep my boot in their @$$, make sure they know I'd kill for them and never sell them down the river, my suboordinates will be in better shape than I was to take my place. Being an NCO is one the greatest priveleges on the planet.

The tactical gray is much more porous. Aircraft washes take a lot longer, and the end result isn't as effective, I don't think.I suspect you're right.

[Willy]

tigisfat, the problem was that if we did put our foot up their tails, we'd be up on charges. And they knew it.

[wombat666]

tigisfat, the problem was that if we did put our foot up their tails, we'd be up on charges. And they knew it.

Never ever have any of those problems in any of my units!!!
EVER!
Come to think of it, I still get the 'new generation' through my courses without any difficulty.
:173go1:

[wombat666]

Back before the Navy outlawed a lot of chemicals for cleaning aircraft systems, we used to clean aircond. systems ducting with methyl-ethyl-ketone, without any type of respiratory protection. I don't EVEN want to know what the long term health effects it will have on me. Probably better NOT to know!
NC

Probably a nice serving of Cancer.
That stuff is extremely nasty, been available only with a special use permit for years and years out here.
:wave:

[Wing_Z]

Back to the dirt...
Great to see Milton's Aero Commander again, so I dug it out for a fly.

I was reminded that I never liked this one's dirt, too uniform (and the clean one far too nice):

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/CHARL_photos/Flightsim%202/fs92009-03-1323-22-59-65.jpg

But This One...ahh...always would get some muck in the air intake, forcing a shutdown (and feathering the prop, a Shupe specialty!)

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/CHARL_photos/Flightsim%202/fs92009-03-1323-13-02-59.jpg

[Helldiver]

Willy sez-
"Pretty much the same here when I decided to call it a career at the 20 years and a couple of days mark. It got to where to even attempt to correct one of the "little darlings" required a paper trail several weeks long."
Both Navy Chief and Willy are more than a generation apart from me, but we all speak with the same voice.
When I saw a Seaman wearing a hard-earned Chief's hat, I knew the end was near.
This generation has no respect for authority. It comes down to the "no spanking rule" that exists today. They don't learn authority and responsibility from an early age.
A far as I'm concerned most of them are all a irresponsible bunch of hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone. <!-- / message -->

[tigisfat]

tigisfat, the problem was that if we did put our foot up their tails, we'd be up on charges. And they knew it.

Things have surely only been getting more 'professional' and 'civilian' since then. I've never been brought up on charges for correcting a young and impressionable troop.

--The thing about paper trails is this: It is not something for me to fear getting into, it is just another tool to help me defend military ways, customs and courtesies. A modern NCO had better know how to write at a graduate level. However, old-fashioned forms of behavior and performance correction still exist.

[tigisfat]

......This generation has no respect for authority.......A far as I'm concerned most of them are all a irresponsible bunch of hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone...... <!-- / message -->

I'm sorry you feel that way about us. I've managed to avoid responding before, but now I at least wish to make a few points in defense.

1. Like I said before; Every generation has said that about the next ones to come along because history and emotions repeat themselves. I have no doubt similar things were said about your generation as well.

2. You can belittle my military generation all you want, but we are dealing with things no other has had to. I reached my first duty station in August of 2001, right before the end of my life as I knew it and I'd do it all again. In fact, I haven't met anyone with regrets. There are no "do this much time at war and you get to go home" concessions either. Most of us have spent longer than the duration of major US involvement in WWII deployed to a warzone. I don't think that's clear to many people; either that or most don't grapple it. It's now 2009. That means that hundreds of thousands of my generation reenlisted or extended our active duty commission. Why? is it because we're a generation of "hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone"?. The single digits of this century have been almost entirely occupied by this war, and at least in the USAF, most of us have been here since the beginning because of downsizing. If that doesn't prove we have respect for our great country, nothing will.

Maybe we are a generation of "hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone". Or; we are a generation with more access to information than the world has ever seen, faced with problems America has never seen and tasked with cleaning up the messes (or at least attempting to deal with them) of huge post WWII mistakes. In light of this, it may be fitting after all if we've revived some of the fight in America's spirit and get called hooligans in the process.

[TARPSBird]

If I can get this back on topic and away from the generation war...
Here are two pics that provide a little more inspiration for weathering. Crusader AH 204 shows dirt on the wings, and along the tail section by the vertical stab. This is mainly from maintenance guys walking. Notice the outer wing panels are clean - nobody walks on 'em. :) The P2V is from NAS Glenview, my old reserve base. Notice some different gray shades on the nose, wingtip tanks, and under the "7V" tail code. I suspect that when this pic was shot, the a/c had recently been received from a fleet VP squadron or another reserve unit. If you're just starting to mess around with repaints, this is an easy mod to do to any plane.

[wombat666]

I'm sorry you feel that way about us. I've managed to avoid responding before, but now I at least wish to make a few points in defense.

1. Like I said before; Every generation has said that about the next ones to come along because history and emotions repeat themselves. I have no doubt similar things were said about your generation as well.

2. You can belittle my military generation all you want, but we are dealing with things no other has had to. I reached my first duty station in August of 2001, right before the end of my life as I knew it and I'd do it all again. In fact, I haven't met anyone with regrets. There are no "do this much time at war and you get to go home" concessions either. Most of us have spent longer than the duration of major US involvement in WWII deployed to a warzone. I don't think that's clear to many people; either that or most don't grapple it. It's now 2009. That means that hundreds of thousands of my generation reenlisted or extended our active duty commission. Why? is it because we're a generation of "hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone"?. The single digits of this century have been almost entirely occupied by this war, and at least in the USAF, most of us have been here since the beginning because of downsizing. If that doesn't prove we have respect for our great country, nothing will.

Maybe we are a generation of "hooligans with no respect for anything or anyone". Or; we are a generation with more access to information than the world has ever seen, faced with problems America has never seen and tasked with cleaning up the messes (or at least attempting to deal with them) of huge post WWII mistakes. In light of this, it may be fitting after all if we've revived some of the fight in America's spirit and get called hooligans in the process.

:applause::applause::applause: Right on the mark!!:applause::applause::applause:

[Navy Chief]

If I can get this back on topic and away from the generation war...
Here are two pics that provide a little more inspiration for weathering. Crusader AH 204 shows dirt on the wings, and along the tail section by the vertical stab. This is mainly from maintenance guys walking. Notice the outer wing panels are clean - nobody walks on 'em. :) The P2V is from NAS Glenview, my old reserve base. Notice some different gray shades on the nose, wingtip tanks, and under the "7V" tail code. I suspect that when this pic was shot, the a/c had recently been received from a fleet VP squadron or another reserve unit. If you're just starting to mess around with repaints, this is an easy mod to do to any plane.

Nice pictures, Tarps. And NAS Glenview is a base I'd like to see "revived" in FSX!!!

NC