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srgalahad
October 10th, 2008, 22:27
This little exercise came as a result of more test-flying my system to see if it still works.

The place: central Idaho, USA

The scenario (I felt creative):
At the end of the forest fire season the crews are ready to return home but a serious (possibly) communicable disease has been detected among one or more of the crews. Blood-test kits have been airdropped to the sites and it is your task to depart from the Fire Base at McCall, ID (KMYL), fly to each strip, land, collect the kits and return to KMYL so they can be tested and the source of infection identified. Obviously speed is of the essence but safety is paramount!

Ten legs with an average of 21 (direct) miles each but some may require navigation through mountain passes or circuitous routing.

As this is a test of aircraft selection, your piloting skills and the ability of your hardware to withstand the rigors of RTW flying in tough situations I've set the time limit to include two weekends. If all things work right, it's possible to complete the exercise in less than 90 minutes elapsed time (with no rest for the wicked).

Details follow...

Rob

srgalahad
October 10th, 2008, 22:56
Things you need to know:

Real weather, RTW-allowed aircraft/helicopters/autogyros, Daylight Ops (time-shifting is allowed) --All strips are unlighted except KMYL. Time for each leg is the "Flight Time" reported on the Duenna.

A crash is fatal - in the event of a crash the whole mission must be flown again with a different type of aircraft (Computer failure is exempt from this rule -post Duenna and attach explanation - but does not include crashes due to frame-rate issues). Abandonment is allowed (buy beer for the Fire Base staff) but the same type of a/c may not be used for any retries of the mission.

Each pickup requires a full-stop landing and must be in the order listed -- Diversions are allowed due to Weather BUT the route sequence must be maintained AND the Duenna times must be combined in your report. (The same applies to landing at the wrong strip...).
NO refuelling is allowed (you want to risk being infected by the disease???) so if you shut down the system between flights, check your fuel load at landing and start-up and adjust as necessary before starting the Duenna.

The entire area is capped due to a Homeland Security exercise overhead (10,000 ASL and above) so be careful of Altimeter Settings and altitudes! (Winds and mountainous terrain can change altimeter settings significantly enroute) A Ten (10) Minute penalty is applied to any leg that exceeds the listed Max Enroute Altitude as shown on the Duenna. The caps have been tested but do NOT guarantee terrain clearance for a direct route.

Destination Airport
FROM -- TO -- Distance -- ELEV -- RWY - SURFACE -- Max Enroute Altitude

KMYL -- 0U0 --28.5 ----- 6662 -- 16/34 - 4000x100 Grs -- 8500 ft ASL
0U0 --- ID86 --21.5 ----- 5489 -- NE/SW 1800x50 Dt ---- 8500 ft ASL
ID86 -- 02ID --21.0 ----- 5634 -- NE/SW 2000x100 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
02ID -- 13ID --21.7 ----- 6400 -- N/S -- 1600x100 Grs --- 9500 ft ASL ***
13ID -- 0U1 -- 15.4 ----- 4831 -- 02/20 - 2850x135 Grs -- 9000 ft ASL ***
0U1 -- U72 --- 34.5 ----- 4742 -- 04/22 - 2500x75 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
U72 -- ID67 -- 13.1 ----- 4200 -- 13/31 - 1100x75 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
ID67 -- ID41 -- 23.1 ----- 6539 -- 06/24 - 2450x175 Grav - 8500 ft ASL
ID41 -- 24K -- 17.6 ----- 3982 --- 17/35 - 1500x150 Grs -- 8500 ft ASL
24K -- KMYL -- 16.6 ---- 5021 --- 16/34 - 6107x75 Asp ---8500 ft ASL

TOTAL 213.0nm

NOTE: more than one strip is very short and/or narrow. All have obstacles in the vicinity and most require steep descents/climbs or tight approaches. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!

Test was flown using FS2004. In FSX if Autogen Scenery slider is set to higher than "Normal", excessively tall trees will likely render at least two airports unmanageable (if not impossible for most aircraft). Arrival & departure tests are highly recommended in any case!

If all things work right, it's possible to complete the exercise in less than 90 minutes elapsed time (with no rest for the wicked).:cost1:

Begin now…
End before 2359 Zulu Friday Oct. 25th

Rob

MM
October 11th, 2008, 10:30
An excellent challenge. (Some rather clever parts here!)

Those who like interesting flying may want to set their autogen-tree-setting as high as is reasonable--to increase the beauty of the fall foliage that "adorns" each field's final approach. :d

Tako_Kichi
October 11th, 2008, 14:15
I just tried this for a bit of fun and what a white knuckle ride it was. I am glad I had crash detection off and no Duenna running for the first attempt as I would have pranged my kite on several legs.

Mind you I was facing 25 knot gusts, mostly cross winds, snow squalls, cloud base below mountain top height...it was nasty! :isadizzy:

I will certainly try it again when the weather around there clears up a bit. :icon_lol:

buzzbee
October 11th, 2008, 15:04
Giving it a go in the Real Air Scout with Tundra tires, but the weather does not look so good. Winds at KMYL 21 at 40 kts, blowing me backwards.

Looks like a good test of Skyvector.com planning feature.

Dangerousdave26
October 11th, 2008, 15:09
That stinks it was nice and clear earlier there but I can't figure out what plane to use. This is not standard RTWR material. It is more like a Bush Pilot's Extreme Adventure. I had to go around twice on the second airport before I could get it down and still racked it up in the tress (P-38) just could not get it stopped.

Looking threw the hanger now but may have to do some online shopping.

PRB
October 11th, 2008, 15:25
Did some scouting of this course myself and bent up an otherwise perfectly good OV-10. I think the Idaho Air National Guard will get a lot of spare parts out of this one...

Tako_Kichi
October 11th, 2008, 16:21
I used a Beaver with tundra tyres and even that was struggling to get into some of them.

I finally developed a technique where I 'crabbed' in sideways at barely above stall speed and just above the ground and when I was over the runway I shut the throttle and dropped the last 10 feet or so! The roll out on some landings was about 20 feet! :costumes:

Full rudder wasn't enough to keep the nose lined up in a few places too.

A helicopter might be a vehicle of choice here although the altitude might give lift problems. :icon_lol:

I will try it again when the winds drop and the snow clears as it is certainly a bush flying challenge.

PRB
October 11th, 2008, 16:34
I'm actually contemplating a helicopter for this, which is quite amazing since I'm such an expert at crashing helicopters! When I "sober up" I think I'll do some scouting with the Aerosoft DHC-6 Twin Otter. That ship has reverseable props and can land on very short strips...

Tako_Kichi
October 11th, 2008, 16:51
I considered the 'Twotter' too after seeing the problems I was having with the Beaver. The reverse thrust would certainly help. Hmm...a Britten-Norman Islander might work too (if a little slow on top speed) but I don't have one in my latest rebuild of FSX which I am trying to keep to non port-over aircraft. It may be time to try FS9 again...lol.

Another possibility could be an aircraft with speed brakes and STOL capability.

Dangerousdave26
October 11th, 2008, 16:58
While not a speed deamon she is Handling the short fields and snow rather well....

:icon_lol:

If you shut the engine off on touch down.

This is my scouting vehicle to feel out the airstrips

buzzbee
October 11th, 2008, 17:56
Family duties delayed me.

Willy
October 11th, 2008, 22:05
This looks like it might be a job for one of the Russki specials...... :d

Flyin Bull
October 12th, 2008, 05:07
Gave it a whirl in Scottish Aviation Pioneer.

Flyin Bull
October 12th, 2008, 05:08
Some nice tricky fields.

Flyin Bull
October 12th, 2008, 05:15
Passed a couple of lazy Sunday flying.

Flyin Bull
October 12th, 2008, 05:24
Total time 01:58:11
Thanks Rob for a nice little event. :ernae:

MM
October 12th, 2008, 09:38
Good time to learn a new aircraft, eh?

Supporting local industry...Bill's Quest Kodiak looks a useful piece of machinery.

Hey, what's with this Garmin glass cockpit stuff in bush country?:isadizzy:

Willy
October 12th, 2008, 10:11
Took a run at it in Piglet's An-2. When I got up to 175kts, I remembered that I'd souped up the engine a wee bit, so I'll have to find something else to fly this in.

Wondering if I can fit the Beech 18 into some of those short strips.... :d

Dangerousdave26
October 12th, 2008, 10:22
Wondering if I can fit the Beech 18 into some of those short strips.... :d

I tried Willy was not a good site after airstrip 4 :redf:

srgalahad
October 12th, 2008, 10:24
FB...

I didn't check your flight time numbers but does that 1:58:11 include penalty times for the busted altitudes in legs 1, 4, 8, 9, & 10?
"A Ten (10) Minute penalty is applied to any leg that exceeds the listed Max Enroute Altitude as shown on the Duenna."
** I just shoved the numbers into my spreadsheet and got 1:54:53 (flight time, not Duenna time) -- plus 0:50:00 would be 2:44:53
As may be noted, deviance of <10 ft was ignored to compensate for instrument error:kilroy:

Teaser for all:
Test was done in FS9, a/c was RTW2008-approved, time was under 1:15:00

Go ahead.. call me names!

Rob

MM
October 12th, 2008, 12:32
Nice day for practicing mountain flying and STOL operations in Idaho.

Willy
October 12th, 2008, 14:09
I tried Willy was not a good site after airstrip 4 :redf:


Sometimes, ya just gotta do what ya just gotta do..... :d

srgalahad
October 12th, 2008, 19:48
A few thoughts from the torture master....

MM,
"Those who like interesting flying may want to set their autogen-tree-setting as high as is reasonable--to increase the beauty of the fall foliage that "adorns" each field's final approach." ... and each tree subsequently adorned with aluminum tinsel?? Mike, did you recently invest heavily in a helicopter logging & aircraft salvage firm in the northwest?? :d

Tako, good to see you take on the challenge (RTW is only a few short months away)...
"I finally developed a technique where I 'crabbed' in sideways at barely above stall speed and just above the ground and when I was over the runway I shut the throttle and dropped the last 10 feet or so!" Much as we discovered how to land the default Comet without a fatal groundloop (deadstick & gear up) - necessity is the mother of invention!

Dave, you're right... "This is not standard RTWR material. It is more like a..." maniacal Extra Bonus Points Mission (like the Antarctic?). So we investigate the go/no-go choices? Risk vs Reward?

FB, I love the Pioneer!!

which brings to mind Pilatus Porters, OV-10's (PRB, talk to MM about salvage) maybe PAD Single TurboOtters with reverse? There are some fairly fast helicopters and altitude shouldn't be an issue (53 years ago Cessna made one that was certified to hover at 11,000 ft. "The plaque inscription is as follows: "SEPTEMBER 15, 1955 PIKES PEAK 14,110 FT. CESSNA CH-1 HELICOPTER. First successful landing and take-off ever accomplished by any aircraft from this peak was on September 15, 1955. The aircraft was a Cessna CH-1 helicopter..."

Maybe crash-worthy aircraft will work...?? but you have to get out of where you just got in...

For those who'd like it, attached is the small Excel spreadsheet I use to record and calculate the times (normal deal - download, rename removing the .txt, open) - just plug minutes & seconds into the appropriate cells. Final total reconverts to H/m/s and shows the average speed for each leg.

Rob

Tako_Kichi
October 12th, 2008, 20:19
Tako, good to see you take on the challenge (RTW is only a few short months away)...
I was totally drawn into last year's race and followed it daily via all the reports and the online tracking site (cheering for SOH of course! ;) ) Even my wife got hooked and she was following it on her computer too.

Unfortunately I couldn't take part last year as I was knee deep in testing the then top secret A2A 377 and didn't have any spare time for racing. By the looks of what is in the pipeline for the next few months the '09 race may be a no go for me too, at least as a participant.

Flyin Bull
October 13th, 2008, 00:46
Must read the rules:banghead::banghead::banghead: Had my RTW head on and thought altitude cap was 10,000 feet. scrub my first run, gonna give it a whirl with the proper altitudes.:redf:

Haitun
October 13th, 2008, 04:46
Will do this in Xomer's An-2. Know how to start engine and fly the thing.:isadizzy:

Vicious
October 14th, 2008, 00:16
Here are my times through the mountain course.
Vicious


Baton Times:

KMYL - 0U0 7:27
0U0 - ID86 5:56
ID86 - 02ID 5:51
02ID - 13ID 6:18
13ID - 0U1 4:48
0U1 - U72 9:55
U72 - ID67 4:28
ID67 - ID41 7:02
ID41 - 24K 5:26
24K – KMYL 5:17

Total: 1:02:28

Vicious
October 14th, 2008, 00:18
Legs 5 - 8

Vicious
October 14th, 2008, 00:22
Legs 9 and 10 plus pics.

Vicious

Flyin Bull
October 14th, 2008, 05:08
Ok flew it again using correct altitude caps:redf:

Flyin Bull
October 14th, 2008, 05:10
Legs 5 to 8

Flyin Bull
October 14th, 2008, 05:12
Total Baton time 1:56:11

buzzbee
October 14th, 2008, 10:33
Practicing in the Bearcat - Coming into U72

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCKcU3Lko0

Dangerousdave26
October 14th, 2008, 11:08
Hey Vicious sweet run their :jump: yesterday was a great day for flying there.

Buzz two things

Which Bear Cat are you using?

Do you think it can do the whole event on one tank of gas :icon_lol:

Nice video

Maybe for fun i will try it tonight. Then I can eliminate anther aircaft I can't land. :d

srgalahad
October 14th, 2008, 11:11
Practicing in the Bearcat - Coming into U72

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCKcU3Lko0


Well, that was certainly a novel circle-to-land approach :costumes:

I'm glad to see someone it trying it in the Beercat. With the dive-brake and power it might just be a contender!

Dangerousdave26
October 14th, 2008, 11:17
Well, that was certainly a novel circle-to-land approach :costumes:

I'm glad to see someone it trying it in the Beercat. With the dive-brake and power it might just be a contender!

Need I remind you of the nose down pictures of me in the Bear Cat. It may be a contender but should short lived with me.

srgalahad
October 14th, 2008, 11:17
Here are my times through the mountain course.
Vicious


Baton Times:

KMYL - 0U0 7:27
0U0 - ID86 5:56
ID86 - 02ID 5:51
02ID - 13ID 6:18 +10:00 for the 9195Ft. excursion tho
13ID - 0U1 4:48
0U1 - U72 9:55
U72 - ID67 4:28
ID67 - ID41 7:02
ID41 - 24K 5:26
24K – KMYL 5:17

Total: 1:02:28
So really 1:12:28, but....
Without the penalty...
You beat my time of 1:09:29 .. and the aircraft was..... Veneaviones Rockwell Turbo Commander 690 (winglet) in NOAA paint.

Good Flying!! :ernae:

Rob

jkcook28
October 14th, 2008, 12:05
I can't get to U72 under 8500' with my terrain mesh without going to hell and gone in an end run coming BACK from the following stop at ID67. Me and Dave are working a clandestine practice again tonight. Did I say that out loud?
I'm working 2 planes that can challenge Vicious' speed but one is fuel challenged and the other is most unforgiving of sloppy pattern handling. And their both piston-powered...:d

(we don't need no steenking turboprops :costumes:)

:kilroy::kilroy::kilroy:

Dangerousdave26
October 14th, 2008, 12:21
Yeah and we got the Auto Gen Slider

FULL RIGHT

Which means some of these strips are very challenging. Dive in yank on the stick and hope you don't go splat. :costumes:

Vicious
October 14th, 2008, 12:21
I thought the 02ID-13ID leg had a 9500 limit? :banghead: What did the "9500 ***" mean?

Vicious

MM
October 14th, 2008, 12:27
John, to reach U72 with FSGenesis FS9 mesh I found it necessary to drop the autogen trees which just allows one to scrape over a low point on one intervening ridge... :redf:

(With full trees, I managed to get through at 8470ft--too close to replicate with any confidence. Landed with pine needles lodged in the gear.:isadizzy:)

Dangerousdave26
October 14th, 2008, 14:12
I thought the 02ID-13ID leg had a 9500 limit? :banghead: What did the "9500 ***" mean?

Vicious

You got that right Limit on 02ID - 13ID Leg is 9500 not 9000

I launch the first Official Protest and Call Shinaniganins All those who agree....

Must be an over site on the part of SG he's just forgetting his own rules. :d

Moses03
October 14th, 2008, 14:22
You fellas look like you are having fun. I like fun. :d

Results are already in from the first test run. Numbers are looking good so far for this super-secret RTW legal aircraft. ;)

Hope to do the full route this weekend.

srgalahad
October 14th, 2008, 21:03
You got that right Limit on 02ID - 13ID Leg is 9500 not 9000

I launch the first Official Protest and Call Shinaniganins All those who agree....

Must be an over site on the part of SG he's just forgetting his own rules. :d

Actually, I didn't forget them Dave. I made an error in transferring the data from the spreadsheet to the written rule in Post #2 (pasting from Word/Excel doesn't always go smoothly in here)
The cap altitudes got slipped in the transfer.. 4 legs of 8500, the one at 9500, one at 9000 and 4 at 8500 is the sequence - so, the correct "high" legs are:

13ID 0U1 15.4 9500 ft ASL
0U1 U72 34.5 9000 ft ASL
ALL OTHERS ARE 8500 ASL MAX.

when I checked the times I was going by my original sheet as shown above.

Now Vicious did indeed work from the initial posted data so I have to bite the bullet and let his leg stand as flown and the total reverts to his posted 1:02:++ which puts him in Dr. House's chair with some pain killers. :applause: So far! (Wanna refly the 4th leg at 8500 and see how you do? - just for fun)

I'll recheck the others in a few minutes and make the appropriate comments. Since I'm NOT keeping a running tally you'll have to make your own notes on the bathroom wall. (Rules will be edited to show the correction for those yet to fly)

Someone had better get a fast plane going though -- I think an under-one-hour time is possible...

Rob

srgalahad
October 14th, 2008, 21:13
Since I can't edit a post that old...
REVISED, EDITED AND CORRECTED Things you need to know:

The entire area is capped due to a Homeland Security exercise overhead (10,000 ASL and above) so be careful of Altimeter Settings and altitudes! (Winds and mountainous terrain can change altimeter settings significantly enroute) A Ten (10) Minute penalty is applied to any leg that exceeds the listed Max Enroute Altitude as shown on the Duenna. The caps have been tested but do NOT guarantee terrain clearance for a direct route.

Destination Airport
FROM -- TO -- Distance -- ELEV -- RWY - SURFACE -- Max Enroute Altitude

KMYL -- 0U0 --28.5 ----- 6662 -- 16/34 - 4000x100 Grs -- 8500 ft ASL
0U0 --- ID86 --21.5 ----- 5489 -- NE/SW 1800x50 Dt ---- 8500 ft ASL
ID86 -- 02ID --21.0 ----- 5634 -- NE/SW 2000x100 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
02ID -- 13ID --21.7 ----- 6400 -- N/S -- 1600x100 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
13ID -- 0U1 -- 15.4 ----- 4831 -- 02/20 - 2850x135 Grs -- 9500 ft ASL ***
0U1 -- U72 --- 34.5 ----- 4742 -- 04/22 - 2500x75 Grs --- 9000 ft ASL ***
U72 -- ID67 -- 13.1 ----- 4200 -- 13/31 - 1100x75 Grs --- 8500 ft ASL
ID67 -- ID41 -- 23.1 ----- 6539 -- 06/24 - 2450x175 Grav - 8500 ft ASL
ID41 -- 24K -- 17.6 ----- 3982 --- 17/35 - 1500x150 Grs -- 8500 ft ASL
24K -- KMYL -- 16.6 ---- 5021 --- 16/34 - 6107x75 Asp ---8500 ft ASL

TOTAL 213.0nm

[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion gang :redf:

Rob

Vicious
October 14th, 2008, 23:16
This is my leg 4 reflight at the correct altitude. I actually picked up a few seconds, so it doesn't appear that I had any real benefit from the higher altitude limit. I could probably make up some more time on legs 5 and 6 at the higher limits now set, but I don't think it will matter much. I know I left more than a few minutes on the course and there's faster runs yet to come. :d

Vicious

jkcook28
October 15th, 2008, 06:50
...snip...
0U1 -- U72 --- 34.5 ----- 4742 -- 04/22 - 2500x75 Grs --- 9000 ft ASL ***
...snip

Well that solves my problem.

Expect a communique' from Dewey, Cheatum and Howe for "mental anguish" to the client. :d

srgalahad
October 15th, 2008, 08:25
Well that solves my problem.

Expect a communique' from Dewey, Cheatum and Howe for "mental anguish" to the client. :d

What do you call a dozen lawyers at the bottom of the bay?

Mouse-over here --->> A small but good start :173go1:

Rob

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 09:16
I hate to suggest this but I have some recollection of the Tucano being one of those way too hot planes (FM) that was not RTW useable. Dave would have no way of knowing this. MM might have an answer to this.

Good flying!

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 09:24
Anybody try this in FSX yet?

Dangerousdave26
October 15th, 2008, 09:42
Well that solves my problem.

Expect a communique' from Dewey, Cheatum and Howe for "mental anguish" to the client. :d

We have been working for two days to find a way over that range :banghead:

The best I could do with a Default FS9 Scenery was 8600 ft

Tako_Kichi
October 15th, 2008, 10:00
Anybody try this in FSX yet?
All my attempts have been in FSX....non of them were pretty! :isadizzy:

I tried it in the MV-22 Osprey last night but it would appear that it has been so long since I last flew it that I have actually forgotten how to do it! Every time I tried to transition from vertical to horizontal flight I fell out of the sky like a huge brick! :banghead:

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 10:48
tako:

Someone made a "gauge" to help with some of the translational flight issues of the Osprey. As it was the translational flight regiem was not quite right in the stock FM.

srgalahad
October 15th, 2008, 11:12
Well, I had to try it... and finally made it. However, as I've contended for some time, running very fast airplane on short hops does NOT give much of an advantage. I almost broke the 60 minute mark and probably lost that time on the last leg with a long floater of a landing.

It was fun, scary and there were a dozen practice legs in Bearcats #1 thru #15 that are now available for pickup by the MM Aerial Salvage Corp. Hours of practice to pick best approaches only gained me 2.5 minutes over the Turbo Commander. Rating: Not worth the effort except to see the trees flash by at 350 kts:d
The Bearcat is:
- difficult to slow down (time lost by pullling power sooner)
- VERY difficult to handle just above stall to get into the tight places
- lousy brakes! - even lifting flaps doesn't give a lot of braking action on grass/gravel strips
+ is blessed with huge amounts of power to get airborne and out of tight valleys (WHEW!!!!!)
+ the speed does help battle the altitude caps by allowing longer valley runs instead of going over the top

Rob

Tako_Kichi
October 15th, 2008, 11:58
tako:

Someone made a "gauge" to help with some of the translational flight issues of the Osprey. As it was the translational flight regiem was not quite right in the stock FM.
DOH!! :banghead:

A few months back I rebuilt this system including a brand new HD which in turn meant a complete re-install of FSX and all my add-ons. I guess that in my hurry to get all the aircraft back into FSX I forgot about that gauge (I already had it on back-up disc) and to be honest I hadn't flown it since the reinstall. :redf:

All works as it should now. Thanks for that HU Fliger. :ernae:

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 13:25
I might have to try this in the U-bird as the flaps slow you down pretty fast and she is quite perky with only 40 gallons of fuel or so. The flaps make a senior flight attendent waddling down the asile look positively slim. On the road, no Joys't at the moment. Also have to see if I can update FSX now and between.

Howza Boutza event with say two legs in each Category and Class of aircraft.

T.

Dangerousdave26
October 15th, 2008, 14:07
Howza Boutza event with say two legs in each Category and Class of aircraft.

T.

Sounds like an interesting Addon to the event Tom

Define Categories and Class :ernae:

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 14:57
The FAA defines this. Category is for example: Airplane; Rotorcraft; ummm lighter than air etc. Class would be for example single engine land, multi engine land, single and Multi sea. These can be further subdivided into turbine powered, turbojet recip, and "large" aircraft with a max gross weight of 12,500# or greater.

I think we could come up with several RTW represenative categories. The idea having some real puddle jumper flights, perhaps some rotor wing (mebbe a penalty for reduced realism or crashes turned off) some tactical jets. The idea of having some appropriate challenges for each type. A minimul altitude? reach say 40,000. on the leg for tactical jets.

Ideas anyhow.

jkcook28
October 15th, 2008, 15:24
That whooosh was "KISS" going out the window! :costumes:

j/k...someone draw up the rules and I'm in. :jump:

Dangerousdave26
October 15th, 2008, 16:04
My bad I thought you were referring to an addon to this particular event.

Such as Fly it again with

Leg 1 and 2 in Class x

Leg 3 and 4 in Class y

Leg 5 and 6 in Class z

So forth.

Forcing a person to use a heavy bomber or jet of thier choice. Light aircraft maybe (challange just to get in the air for sure) while I am at it on this one I dare anyone to fly from U72 to 0U1 (I know it is backwards) in the default Cessna 172 with a full tank of gas. :icon_lol:

Of course Rob is not going to like us Pirating his event for our own enjoyment :d

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 17:19
Just a suggestion for the next act...

T.

srgalahad
October 15th, 2008, 19:33
My bad I thought you were referring to an addon to this particular event.

Such as Fly it again with

Leg 1 and 2 in Class x...

So forth.

Forcing a person to use a heavy bomber or jet of thier choice. Light aircraft maybe (challange just to get in the air for sure) while I am at it on this one I dare anyone to fly from U72 to 0U1 (I know it is backwards) in the default Cessna 172 with a full tank of gas. :icon_lol:

Of course Rob is not going to like us Pirating his event for our own enjoyment :d

THIEVES!!!!!!!!!!!! but you know better. If it is FUN or helps the learning for the RTW do what smells good!

However, I did target this for faster, agile, controllable aircraft to encourage the testing of pilot skills and to let people see how choices can bite you in racing.

However, there is a variation I did think of: the Nur Ohadi event ... if'n youse bored, run it backwards and in a different plane. Don't clutter the thread with duennas but if you get some good or odd times and stories, tell all!

Rob

srgalahad
October 15th, 2008, 19:39
The FAA defines this. Category is for example: Airplane; Rotorcraft; ummm lighter than air etc. Class would be for example single engine land, multi engine land, single and Multi sea. These can be further subdivided into turbine powered, turbojet recip, and "large" aircraft with a max gross weight of 12,500# or greater.

I think we could come up with several RTW represenative categories. The idea having some real puddle jumper flights, perhaps some rotor wing (mebbe a penalty for reduced realism or crashes turned off) some tactical jets. The idea of having some appropriate challenges for each type. A minimul altitude? reach say 40,000. on the leg for tactical jets.

Ideas anyhow.

Hmmm.. Tom, you say you're on the road again?? you been in YYC and peeking at the scraps of paper on my desk??? (and why didn't you tidy up after me???)

I'm off on a week's holiday starting tomorrow night so the rough-out may not get done til the end of the month but it looks like a candidate for one of the longer RTW practices as we get closer to the year-end.

This subject is now classified as CLASSIFIED! Deep Dark Secret!

Rob

fliger747
October 15th, 2008, 22:10
Sum (+-) fun for the hideout?

T.

Vicious
October 15th, 2008, 23:32
Hey Fliger,

Is there a list somewhere other than the RTW Race site that discusses aircraft that have been considered ineligible? As far as I can tell there’s nothing on that site restricting the Super Tucano, but being relatively new to racing I’m sure I haven’t seen all the behind the scenes discussions. :redf: If you’re correct, it would seem I’m 2 for 2 in picking ineligible aircraft (although I’m still not sure why the PC-21 isn’t eligible) and I’d like to try to avoid this problem in the future. As for the performance of the model I used, I flight tested against the specs on the net and if anything, I think it underperforms a bit and more closely matches the -312 performance rather than the -314. But it was easy to fly and good for a conservative run.

Vicious

Flyin Bull
October 16th, 2008, 03:49
Managed to get below the one hour mark with a very hairy run in the plywood speed bug.

Dangerousdave26
October 16th, 2008, 03:50
Is there a list somewhere other than the RTW Race site that discusses aircraft that have been considered ineligible? As far as I can tell there’s nothing on that site restricting the Super Tucano, but being relatively new to racing I’m sure I haven’t seen all the behind the scenes discussions. :redf: If you’re correct, it would seem I’m 2 for 2 in picking ineligible aircraft (although I’m still not sure why the PC-21 isn’t eligible) and I’d like to try to avoid this problem in the future. As for the performance of the model I used, I flight tested against the specs on the net and if anything, I think it underperforms a bit and more closely matches the -312 performance rather than the -314. But it was easy to fly and good for a conservative run.

Vicious


I never saw that one either and of course we lost our data base of information so we will need to make a new list.

We should make another thread listing aircraft disqualifications and exceptions to the rules. I will let the Veterans from the team decide where it needs to be place in the standard forums or the Hide Out.

Flyin Bull
October 16th, 2008, 03:52
I re-ran 02ID to 13ID due to the 9500 altitude problem.

Flyin Bull
October 16th, 2008, 03:54
Total baton time = 54:10

jkcook28
October 16th, 2008, 08:08
Question Rob, since this is your baby and you like flight test, is this plane legal? Yak-3 by gmax. gmaxac_yak3.zip @ avsim
It's a solid 30kts fast I think (check leg below); much like the P-51H or Hornet, must be overpowered or over-boosted or both!
Just looking for something different rather than the usuals or duplicating someone else flights.
May just use the WOP Fw-190D; can't win with it but it's different and challenging! (so is the Yak!)
Please advise. :d

srgalahad
October 16th, 2008, 11:46
John, just a quick look offered the following numbers:

(VK-105) 404 mph (650 km/h); (VK-107) 447 mph (720 km/h)
http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/Yak-3.html

http://www.warbirdalley.com/yak3.htm

So depending on which engine is modeled I'd concur the it's 25-40KTS fast and closer to the
Yak-3RD (Yak-3D)experimental aircraft with an auxiliary Glushko RD-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glushko_RD-1&action=edit&redlink=1) liquid-fuel rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-fuel_rocket) engine with 2,9 kN (650 lbf) of thrust in the modified tail, armed with a single 23 mm Nudelman-Suranov NS-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Suranov_NS-23) cannon with 60 rounds of ammunition. On May 11, 1945, the aircraft reached 782 km/h (485 mph) at 7,800 m (25,585 ft). During the August 16 test flight, the aircraft crashed for unknown reasons, killing the test pilotBut... so what?? you're gonna get hurt anyway - go for it. :173go1:
...besides, MM Aerial Salvage may be there to help.

This is an EXERCISE and maybe we'll all learn from it. Obviously, if it was a real RACE there'd be penalties galore and rejected aircraft. I posted the rules so people would start thinking RTW formats and procedures, but at this point I can't see why we shouldn't be flexible. My preference is that anyone try to follow the posted rules precisely the first time around and then feel free to test/experiment afterward.

However, the altitude cap must be adhered to in any case.
(notice how fussy I've been about guys re-flying after they saw the error of their ways?).

I'd think that any serious team practice will be far more rigid about following rules so we understand how penalties hurt (and how they are scored)

Rob

srgalahad
October 16th, 2008, 12:19
Is there a list somewhere other than the RTW Race site that discusses aircraft that have been considered ineligible? As far as I can tell there’s nothing on that site restricting the Super Tucano, ... (although I’m still not sure why the PC-21 isn’t eligible) and I’d like to try to avoid this problem in the future. As for the performance of the model I used, I flight tested against the specs on the net
Vicious

Fot the RTW there is no "Eligible List" but just the set of rules and parameters shown on the official site. "NEW or OTHER" Aircraft eligibility is dealt with on a case-by-case basis (someone squawks, the Officials rule)
The PC-21 was ineligible under the "minimum ten" rule as of last Feb. If that has changed (ie. they delivered and are operating enough) then it will likely be eligible as long as it meets the real-world performance and is still an acceptable class (turboprop, 2 engines or less - and/or cabin class) for 2009. At this point The Race Management has made no statements about rules.
(Summary: wasn't eligible Feb 2008; may now qualify; Cabin Class a/c may/may not be allowed in the upcoming race in 2009)

The Super Tucano should be eligible IF it's proven to meet the real numbers (more info on test methods and supporting data is available). There are many other aircraft that have been released between Races that will have to be confirmed if someone wants to use them.

For this event, I said "RTW-allowed" and that implies 'as of the last rules&decisions' so that's what raised a flag on the PC-21- however you will not be shot for using it. The SuperTuc was not queried by last Feb so it's in limbo but I'll leave the performance testing to those with time and experience - it may be worth a place in the hangar for 2009 so for this event... fly it and see.

Also see the post in reply to jkCook28 above for more on the 'philosophy' :wiggle: - "the more we learn the more questions we have"

Rob

Tako_Kichi
October 16th, 2008, 13:57
I just flew this again in an online MP session with a buddy from the UK. We chose Twotters this time and the weather was much more forgiving to the point where we could get in and out of all the fields without leaving aircraft parts behind in the bushes! However, we stood no chance as far as speed is concerned as the Twotter is just too slow for races. :costumes:

We also had a couple of altitude busts where we were concentrating more on clearing trees than watching the altimeter! It's tough to watch both and stay on course...lol.

Interesting points on aircraft eligibility too Rob. I wonder how Lionheart's Epic LT/Dynasty would fare under those rules? More than 10 LT's (the owner build version) have been made but I am not sure about the certified Dynasty version. It's fairly fast for a single turboprop, has good range, can get over most bad weather and get into and out of short fields.

fliger747
October 16th, 2008, 14:16
It was some race or another it was weeded out for a hot FM. Might have been the Carribean race, cann'a remember which one. Generally it is possible to get a planes performance parameters within 1% or so if one has the desire and the right info is available. There are lot of factors that differentiate the way the numbers can read and what the actual performance is.

These are fun races anyway. Additional participation than just the event is always desireable. We are of course looking to sucker more team mates in for the RTW.

Just back from Hong Kong, but will be home this evening. Which Tucano is it? i will try to look at this one and see if it has legit potential as a RTW racer, we can always use some new steeds.

Cheers: T.

jkcook28
October 16th, 2008, 15:31
Here's the Tucano link Tom: http://www.simshed.co.uk/tucano.html

My initial thought was the Epic LT, but could find no concrete info on completed aircraft...Dynasty is still not certified so none will be out there in use.

Maybe I'll live out on the edge and try that Yak for kicks...liquid fuel rocket included! :costumes:

Vicious
October 16th, 2008, 20:18
SG
Thanks for the clarification regarding aircraft eligibility. I just don’t want to waste time learning aircraft that have already been ruled out for various reasons so I was hoping that there might be a complete list of questionable aircraft.

Fliger
The model I flew was a T29 made by RanchoJEN. I downloaded the file (emb314.zip) from flightsim.com. I’ve found several sources that show a top level speed of 310 kts, but I can only crack 300 so it doesn’t seem too hot, but perhaps there was a climb performance issue. Thanks for checking it out. I don’t think it has much utility in the race, but maybe there’s so challenge leg where its ease of flying could be beneficial.

Vicious

Vicious
October 16th, 2008, 23:50
Just a quick run to get some idea how well the PC-21 could do, if eligible. It produced an easy 48:43. The ability to reverse pitch on approach and rollout is tremendous.

Vicious

Vicious
October 16th, 2008, 23:51
Legs 5-8

Vicious
October 16th, 2008, 23:54
Legs 9 and 10

MM
October 17th, 2008, 05:52
Now that is quick.

fliger747
October 17th, 2008, 11:12
Just a quick Google of the PC-21, looks like enough operational deliveries to be legal.

Max figures look good for a racer, though further investigation would be needed to root out what altitude the speed is good at, and range is another issue. The range figure is good, 700 miles, however at max speed how far it could go might be an issue. Generally the specific fuel consumption figures for turboprops are not as good as for a piston. Are there any external tanks available for this for longer legs?

Cheers: T.

Vicious
October 17th, 2008, 11:30
I’m not sure about the extra fuel option, but there were other downloads for the model which I didn’t try, some of which were in production colors rather than the prototype scheme I flew. As for the main race, I don’t think the performance numbers are overwhelming, since there are many planes that are much faster at altitude, but perhaps it has a place in a challenge leg, or if the altitude or airfields are restricted. It was great for getting into and out of the short fields at the base of the valleys, and really wasn’t a challenge at all to fly. I practiced a bit with the F8F and while I’d bet it can beat the 48 minute time, it would require more effort slowing it down and not running out of room on the landing. With the PC-21 I was full speed to within a mile of the runway and then would hit the reverse pitch, drop everything and perform a high G “S” turn to slow down and could often be stopped on the end of the runway within 30 seconds. However, I’m sure the FM has to be checked out to make sure it’s not too hot as well.

Vicious

fliger747
October 17th, 2008, 12:16
It would be interesting to find out a little more about the operating limits. I have flown a number of PT6 equipped aircraft (long ago) and certainly reverse was not available in flight. It is possible that this could be done, though I expect that the torque limits would not permit this.

I know that in the South America event that the Pe2 had that decelleration advantage because of the dive brakes. You could maintain high speed till a mile or two final. We did have some nasty short fields in holes etc during the RTW. Where did you get your PC-21?

T.

Vicious
October 17th, 2008, 12:41
Yea, I loved the Pe-2 for that event. Now that you mention it, I think the PC-21 has speed brakes as well, but I forgot to use them. They weren’t available in the Tucano so I learned to go without. It would be interesting to find out if the reverse pitch is available in flight. It worked on the Tucano I flew also.

I downloaded the PC-21 from Flightsim.com but I don’t recall the file name. If you like I can send you that when I get home.

Vicious

fliger747
October 17th, 2008, 18:18
Thanks VC, will go search at Flightsim.

jkcook28
October 17th, 2008, 18:36
I've got a PC-21 by Piglet, (here or the usual places) but I don't get the speed Vicious got...must be different. 15 to 25kts slower.

fliger747
October 17th, 2008, 19:02
The one I found was the Piglet one.

T.

Vicious
October 17th, 2008, 20:48
Yep, I was flying the Piglet PC-21. I checked the performance versus a fact sheet from Pilatus and found it’s a bit quick at SL and 10K versus their stats. At SL they show a max level speed of 323 KTAS while the model gives 331 KTAS (+8 kts; +2.4%). At 10k the speed should be 337 KTAS but the model gives 351 KTAS (+14kts; +4.2%). I assume that’s a bit too hot for RTW race work?

Vicious

fliger747
October 17th, 2008, 21:43
VC:

Might be a bit hot, but much worse ones have been approved. MM would be the expert on what will 'fly'. Do you have AFSD? Good to figure out the range at best altitude and max speed. Rang would now be the issue.

Cheers: T.

Flyin Bull
October 18th, 2008, 01:24
If I remember correctly it was the Simshed Tucano that was ruled as to hot. I ran it in the Caribean event last year. Pity it's a great aircraft.

Steve

JockHA
October 18th, 2008, 06:49
This was a fun experience. :ernae:
I used a RealAir Supermarine Spitfire Mk IX – Lady Ellen III.
I am not sure if this is a valid RTW aircraft ?


MM Aerial Salvage company will have two wreckages to
pickup in Idaho mountains. So I am disqualified. :banghead:
I might try with the AeroSoft DHC-6 Twin Otter
Also at KMYL: A Spitfire with engine damaged. I had to glide in, but I guess this is still valid as long as Duenna is green.
I used to much boost for too long time, so the front window is full of oil.
A nice feature in the Real Air Spitfire.
See pictures in next posts.
Total time 1:03:51.

JockHA
October 18th, 2008, 06:53
Leg 5-8

JockHA
October 18th, 2008, 06:56
leg 9 & 10

JockHA
October 18th, 2008, 07:00
I the engine too much for too long so the engne ws damged.

I glided in to KMYL and landed with a green Duenna.

srgalahad
October 18th, 2008, 09:15
hmmmm.. I guess that's what some would cal la "greaser" of a landing...:mixedsmi:

or would that be slick as spit on oil?

Rob

fliger747
October 18th, 2008, 09:53
Been doing some runs in the U-bird, the same one I flew in the RTW. I am rather amazed at how well it stops, mostly usingf about half of the runways for landing, no crashes yet, over the fence at 85 knots, slows really fast with the flaps and gear.

I wanted to run in FSX, but somehow getting opaque glass, which I did not have before. I think I could knock some more time off if the WEP was working. Have to find the gauge.

5+56/5+29/5+36/5+39......... so far. Of course it should be a natural flier for me as I did the FM.....

fliger747
October 18th, 2008, 09:57
Only getting a TAS at 7000' or so of about 322 kts on Military power. I'll have to find the WEP stuff and see if I can improve on that.

T.

fliger747
October 18th, 2008, 11:17
Tried FSX, a lot prettier..... 13ID to 0U1 in the U-bird. 4+53, 8934 max altitude. Will spit out the Duenn'a later. This had my only trial flight so far. If the Duenna is on the screen the sim ignores the key commands and it was a little time before I realized my slow speed was due to gear and flaps that did not come up! WEP helps a bit! Ya can use it the whole way for a 5 min flight! Sound is not working for some reason.....

T.

EasyEd
October 18th, 2008, 13:54
Hey All,

Had no clue this thread was about a practice. Never looked at it with such an odd title. Anyway will participate.

Couple comments on the PC-21. 1) I like the plane I wanted to fly it in competition last year - a bit "twitchy" on handling but otherwise a fast plane. For short legs like this - highly competitive (WWII fighters "TAKE THAT" a single engine modern day turboprop "trainer" is as quick as you!) - on two hour legs probably a bit short on high end speed though. 2) It can stop fast but in real life can you reverse the prop while in flight? In FS you can with no problems to the engines.

The Cheyenne 400LS is equally good at stopping but doesn't have the high end speed of a military plane. I haven't bought the Epic yet but maybe I will just to see what it can do in an event like this. About time I also got reacquainted with my main "ride" the Hornet.

-Ed-

Dangerousdave26
October 18th, 2008, 16:42
I have flown this race each leg a dozen times in almost as many aircraft. Most did not go past the the first 4 or 5 legs before they were ruled out.

The final dicision was to fly it in the Shockwave P-51H just because of speed. The hard part was getting it to slow down. I found out you do not pull the nose up strongly to lose airspeed it tends to fall out of the sky. I was only lucky to save the spin it went into.

Flight Times:

KMYL - 0U0 6:56
0U0 - ID86 5:57
ID86 - 02ID 5:31
02ID - 13ID 5:36
13ID - 0U1 4:20
0U1 - U72 7:10
U72 - ID67 3:54
ID67 - ID41 6:58
ID41 - 24K 5:35
24K – KMYL 5:21

Total: 0:57:18

jkcook28
October 18th, 2008, 16:49
Good run Dave. Ed, don't throw the geezer warbirds under the bus! The speeds there for several; slowing to land blows all the time. I have to throttle to idle 5 mi, from the rwy and S-turn violently to bleed off enough to not miss-approach. Does the speedbug have an airbrake/dive-brake?

Dangerousdave26
October 18th, 2008, 16:51
More Duenna's

Dangerousdave26
October 18th, 2008, 16:53
Last Duenna's

Thanks Rob

Going to take a break maybe harass jkcook28 while he does his legs :icon_lol:

fliger747
October 18th, 2008, 19:27
The last leg I flew in the Geezer U-bird, I was a little irritated to find out the auto baton fetch hadn't. Arrrrrrrrrrr.

T.

Dangerousdave26
October 18th, 2008, 20:00
Good run Dave. Ed, don't throw the geezer warbirds under the bus! The speeds there for several; slowing to land blows all the time. I have to throttle to idle 5 mi, from the rwy and S-turn violently to bleed off enough to not miss-approach. Does the speedbug have an airbrake/dive-brake?

Yep the Hornet has Dive Brakes

PRB
October 18th, 2008, 20:33
Well somebody had to hold up the Lockheed contingent. Started the route in the DeHavilland DHC-2 Beaver, but got bored, so I gave it a shot in the SU P-38J. No dive brakes, no WEP power. No scouting ahead (beyond ID86, in the Beaver). My goal was to not loose a leg due to a crash. I got busted on one leg due to altitude limit, which cost me ten minutes, but I didn’t crash, so there!

This was great fun, ridge running from airport to airport. The weather today was perfect too, so that helped a lot. Unlimited visibility across the entire course. Got lucky there!

fliger747
October 18th, 2008, 20:38
Finished up the legs for a not so competitive 1:01:46

It wasn't more than halfwy through that I had been able to get the WEP to work, might have knocked off some time. Nevertheless screaming down some narrow canyons at 400 knots was a hoot!

Thanks Rob!

PRB
October 18th, 2008, 20:38
Data continued...

PRB
October 18th, 2008, 20:43
More data

PRB
October 18th, 2008, 20:43
More more data

fliger747
October 19th, 2008, 10:11
A fun exercise! As terrain routing is very important in this example. Being between trips, I didn't even have enough time to fly my real airplane! So almost all of these were run cold with no peek at the destination or the route inbetween except what I could see on the flight planner map or out the windscreen. I think we all learned a lot!

Cheers: T.

MM
October 19th, 2008, 12:40
In the local "Bush" flying category, the Quest Kodiak. The actual aircraft is manufactured in Sand Point, Idaho. The FS model is by Bill Ortis (Lionheart). Probably not eligible for RTWR right now. (They started building for sale this January and are now delivering about 2 per month. However, August marked number 5 so they are probably not up to 10. And the aircraft is ineligible for RTWR until further notice.)

The total time is an ultra-non-competitive 1:24:34. (Duenna available on request.:redf:)

Do I get points for using only half the runways? :d

srgalahad
October 19th, 2008, 21:39
Sure Mike... since the airplane is not RTW "legal" yet we'll give you half-points..

So... for MM and the Kodiak.. points available.. zero (we had no bonuses either) unt zo.. 1/2 of nada = zip :applause:

But good to see the Kodiak tested and we'll be looking at it later.

Rob

srgalahad
October 20th, 2008, 08:29
I'm away til the end of the week.. currently lurking in the morning fog in the mountains - and relaxing!. So no flying or downloading til Friday.

There may be a few others wanting to try the exercise but for those who've done it an lived:
Has anyone thought of using the new PAD Barfalo...errr... Buffalo -- Extreme STOL!

Bored?? do the route in reverse!

Rob

jkcook28
October 20th, 2008, 18:25
Finally got my run in. Flew the Butcher Bird; ver. Dora. WEP on all legs (just enough, with a reset for each:isadizzy:) This plane bites you hard in this canyon/speed bleed off/radical maneuver/accelerated stall regime. VERY challenging and a sweet model and FDE. Not the fastest but happy with sub-one hour time with no speed brakes in a geezer warbird!

Cool event Rob!

KMYL-0U0 7:00
0U0-ID86 5:11
ID86-021D 5:26
021D-13ID 5:41
13ID-0U1 4:20
0U1-U72 7:33
U72-ID67 3:48
ID67-ID41 6:11
ID41-24K 5:17
24K-KMYL 4:50

total: 55:17

(duennas upon request so as not to bore you)

jkcook28
October 20th, 2008, 18:39
...and there's Dave, who could have been flamed, in one of many practice runs we did! :costumes: :ernae:

srgalahad
October 21st, 2008, 07:52
...and there's Dave, who could have been flamed, in one of many practice runs we did! :costumes: :ernae:

JOHN!!!!!!
you know Dave + mountains!! that close and the fireball or flying debris might have caught you :icon_lol:

(it'lll never end Dave.. never..):173go1:

jkcook28
October 21st, 2008, 13:45
Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dangerousdave26
October 21st, 2008, 16:31
...and there's Dave, who could have been flamed, in one of many practice runs we did! :costumes: :ernae:

Sufferin Succatash....

And here I thought you just wanted me to lead the way in.

:censored:ard and then you beat my time by 2 mins 1 second



(it'lll never end Dave.. never..)

1.) I know

2.) I redeamed myself by reflying the leg after the RTWR under the same circumstances...

Only it was day by the time I got there...

Planned wrong on the time I left....

I did land on the runway I did not hit the mountain... Mostly because it was no longer the Blind Night.

The landing was successful with a Green Duenna....

But I collapased the landing gear on the runway in the P-38.

So you see I redeamed myself...

Almost :d

jkcook28
October 21st, 2008, 18:59
...snip...:censored:ard and then you beat my time by 2 mins 1 second

dees is der superior German engineering ve have und fantastic piloting skill. Complaining is verboten!

Hieneken! :ernae:

Schnell; halt. My german is expended. :d

Dangerousdave26
October 21st, 2008, 20:11
Hieneken! :ernae:

Schnell; halt. My german is expended. :d


Nine Warsteiner Premium Dunkel :ernae:

fliger747
October 22nd, 2008, 09:03
It would appear that it is necessary to run each leg many times to achieve a minimum time!

Cheers: T.

srgalahad
October 22nd, 2008, 10:29
It would appear that it is necessary to run each leg many times to achieve a minimum time!

Cheers: T.

Und Zo... if you were a newly-hired pilot tasked with this mission the times would be significantly slower.

This does speak to the RTW format as well where we can practice a leg, but with only limited time once the planners define a route but we should still bear in mind that pre-flying can reap benefits (even if it's just approaches and the descent). It also shows that the hottest plane may also have drawbacks that lessen it's overall benefit without those experiences.

Hmmm... would I EVER admit to ulterior motives?

On the other hand it shows that experience is a good teacher, but as I'm sure some have found, a bit of familiarity can also breed casual behaviour which may bite.

Another couple of days to play and then we can look elsewhere...

Rob

jkcook28
October 22nd, 2008, 14:57
It would appear that it is necessary to run each leg many times to achieve a minimum time!

Cheers: T.
Well I ran the legs many times, but in many different aircraft trying to find something manageable that someone else hasn't flown.
Only re-flew (is that a word?) one leg of my actual run when my throttle quad went bonkers.

fliger747
October 22nd, 2008, 17:54
The route tuning is critical in this particular event!

T.

fliger747
October 23rd, 2008, 22:44
As a fun exercise, I yust run ineresting leg between two quaint fields for above course. In Helichopper.... Full zoot trees, FSX etc. Quite the pleasure as you decadent capatiliisichiski say.

I prepose that we try some non tuned runs in either helichopper or piston single, 350 hp or less, fixed gear. Perhaps other direction.....

srgalahad
October 24th, 2008, 08:12
Yer on!
If we have to go thru SOH withdrawl this weekend it might keep our eye on the bagel. Warming up the Pitcairn and then gotta get the NH90 loaded and try it flingwing.

So.. reverse course, no test runs, keep your own time - no Duenna posts (but save them in case), 9000 ft cap (???) for the whole thing???

One bottle (small) Stoly for fastest by Nov 1 :isadizzy:
Rob

fliger747
October 24th, 2008, 16:31
Leg one: McCall to 24K
AH64D
9:20 baton time.
Does not slow down well!!!

T.

fliger747
October 24th, 2008, 16:47
11+19, baton time 24k-ID41
AH 64D

jkcook28
October 24th, 2008, 16:52
:eek: choppers! So a weekend of crash-filled whirlly-birds. Gotta check the hanger.
Was testing Capt Sim Yak-3...Spit-like; fast but no legs. :frown:

PRB
October 24th, 2008, 17:06
Dang, I'm starting to think like Fliger-Tom... :d This is from yesterday... I was all over the place. Took me longer to slow down and land the bloody "jelly pooper" than it did to fly there!

fliger747
October 24th, 2008, 17:35
Leg Three, ID41-ID67:
14;03
AH 64D

fliger747
October 24th, 2008, 17:39
Paul: Am flying the order backwards: I see the Westland is a bit faster than the Longbow!

Cheers: t.

fliger747
October 24th, 2008, 18:31
ID67-U72
9:20
AH 64D

Flew the next leg only to find the duenna did not activate. I think something about the verticle takeoff may affect this.

T.

srgalahad
October 24th, 2008, 18:47
One run dun
KMYL-24K =14:40
24K - ID41 =16:57
ID41 - ID67 =18:50
ID67 - U72 =14:10
U72 - 0U1 =26:58
0U1 - 13ID =15:00
13ID - 02ID =17:12
02ID - ID86 =23:30
ID86 - 0U0 =16:17
0U0 - KMYL =21:58 for a total of 3h:5m:32s

Pitcairn PCA-2

WunSoarBut

Tako_Kichi
October 24th, 2008, 18:48
Try a rolling take off that exceeds 5 MPH as I think I read a while back that choppers lifting off vertically can fail to trigger the Duenna. You may have to use a rolling landing too for the same reason.

srgalahad
October 24th, 2008, 18:54
:eek: choppers! So a weekend of crash-filled whirlly-birds. Gotta check the hanger.
Was testing Capt Sim Yak-3...Spit-like; fast but no legs. :frown:

To quote der fligermeister (this was HIS idea!)
"in either helichopper or piston single, 350 hp or less, fixed gear. "

So as long as you make sure it's under 350HP go ahead and fly the fixed-wing (BTW the DHC Beaver is 450 but Piglet's Helio is 295 HP :d)

Rob

Moses03
October 24th, 2008, 20:24
Rob, you get an "A" for effort flying that Ronco slicer & dicer. :d

Just for grins I ran the first leg in the Santos Dumont Demoiselle of 1909. A two cylinder opposed air cooled Dutheil-Chalmers engine of 20-30HP. And some bamboo bits. :mixedsmi:

Always wondered about setting up a race from London to Paris in 1903-1913 era aircraft. No gps, otto etc.

srgalahad
October 24th, 2008, 22:35
MOses, I did the Paris to London in the Demi.. it was blast (of propwash) and only worried when I was over the cold, wet Channel.

How about a "European Snowbird" thing.. London to Nice in anything pre-Great War? Should be about a week (10-12 hrs) in the spring

Rob

fliger747
October 25th, 2008, 10:08
U72-0U2 17+11
0U2-13ID 8+48
13ID-02ID 11+28
02ID-ID86 10+54
ID86-0U0 11+04
0U0-KMYL 14+35

Total for the "hole deal" 1+58+12

Ah 64D

jkcook28
October 25th, 2008, 19:36
Reverse course, CH-53 Jolly Green. Big and fast, much overspeed but no blown legs!

KMYL-24K 6:40
24K-ID41 8:26
ID41-ID67 8:48
ID67-U72 5:42
U72-0U1 12:16
0U1-13ID 6:12
13ID- 021D 8:00
021D-ID86 7:30
ID86-0U0 7:45
0U0-KMYL 10:04

total 1:21:23 :running::running:

fliger747
October 25th, 2008, 19:43
Ya doing 200+ knots in level cruise?

T.

jkcook28
October 25th, 2008, 19:54
Ya doing 200+ knots in level cruise?

T.

LOL! Yes it could probably do it, but overspeeds at 170KIAS. Must be vigilant!

Here's the txt files:

jkcook28
October 25th, 2008, 20:01
...and the last two:

fliger747
October 25th, 2008, 21:09
170 knots is about the max speed for that bird. I only get about 155-160 TAS from the Longbow, which is about right. Does not hardly pick up speed downhill at all, which is wierd. A little slow in the climb.

The real reason most choppers are not "really fast" has to do with retreating blade airspeed. Somewhere between loss of lift on the retreating blade and mach drag rise on the advancing blade some interesting control and drag issues arise.

Actually is not really a Jolly Green, but a Sea Stallion. I flew the RTW stuff in the default 206, which is really slow, but was all I had at the time. So much for RTW prep!

T.

srgalahad
October 26th, 2008, 00:02
Knowing that at least last year I was about the only other 'potential' flingerwinger I figured I'd get working on it early... got the 206 working and down pat in FSX and a bevy of beasts in FS9 but none with any speed. The Mil-8T is nice.. smooth to fly but only 110Kts

Was working up the Mil tonight and found it has an "interesting" characteristic when flown too aggressively ... see attached (taken after a bit too forceful and arrival...

But hey!!!!... it's a true "Panther"

Rob

fliger747
October 26th, 2008, 06:14
Just make sure the bungs are in on all those Vodka drums ya have in the back.....

Vicious
October 26th, 2008, 17:00
Runs in the Cessna/Columbia 400 (piston single; <350HP; fixed gear)

Reverse route; original alt limits

KMYL-24K 6:38
24K-ID41 6:51
ID41-ID67 8:16
ID67-U72 5:31
U72-0U1 10:59
0U1-13ID 6:01
13ID- 021D 7:17
021D-ID86 7:18
ID86-0U0 7:12
0U0-KMYL 9:09

Total 1:15:12 :jump:

Vicious

jkcook28
October 26th, 2008, 17:25
Thats a sweet model Vicious...good run! :applause:

Vicious
October 28th, 2008, 19:51
Thanks JK! Considering it lacks over 1000 HP compared to the PC-21, and can’t stop on a dime due to its lack of reverse pitch, I thought it did very well. I wish the brakes were a bit more effective and it had a higher G rating to help with slowing down, but it’s a nice ride. Too bad it may not have much practical use for the big race however.

Vicious

buzzbee
October 31st, 2008, 10:45
Here is where I have not solved the approach. U72-ID67

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnVqGpzPaJ8 Watch in High Quality

need to actually fly all legs together and see what I can do.

srgalahad
October 31st, 2008, 12:51
Here is where I have not solved the approach. U72-ID67

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnVqGpzPaJ8 Watch in High Quality

need to actually fly all legs together and see what I can do.

I'll refly it to see, but two things come to mind:

SLOWER!!!! --at the last left turn before rounding the corner you have to be back to 120 kts or less (flaps, gear down, power on holding it just above the stall) and drag the approach in.

After Landing, for max braking in the bearcat it's flaps UP ASAP, back pressure to add to aero drag and pin the tailwheel ....and brake steady but hard.

Under 20 kts you 'can' gracefully turn & brake in a controlled groundloop to avoid the creek (opposite aileron helps a tad at the beginning to prevent tipping) but that is 'last ditch resort' stuff.

Go back to KMYL and practice flight low and slow just above the stall to get the numbers down pat and be prepared for sloppy control

Off to test-fly now

srgalahad
October 31st, 2008, 13:55
buzzbee,


FIRST!!! make sure your throttle is calibrated because you have to be able to get down to min MP. I had a calibration problem last week and found it would only go down to about 15-20% .. had to hit F1 to make sure power was at idle until I fixed it --

I just ran it in the Beercat (SOH-LR) with crappy wx ( rain)... take off 04 and follow the valley straight ahead, turning left, left.. the after the big right turn power right back, get the speed coming down as you REALLY HUG the bottom of the valley... gear and full flaps asap as you will suddenly make a left turn and be on final. IF you are LOW you'll be able to fly straight in at 110-120 kts, touch down short of the threshold (Probably 3-400 ft short) ;; flaps UP and brake!!

you must be almost clipping trees all the way as the route is a constant descent and you can't carry power for more than a couple of seconds once you make the right turn or you'll never slow in time. Note: used NO dive brakes - they cause pitch UP and you can't afford height close in or you'll be too fast at touchdown.

Rob

buzzbee
October 31st, 2008, 21:09
Thanks for the tips Rob. This challenge really shows off the Terrain Mesh! Just fun to fly around up there.

theohall
July 5th, 2017, 17:20
Holy thread resurrections, Batman!!!

srgalahad, this Idaho Circuit is excellent. I am currently flying and creating missions only in DTG Flight Sim World. Would it be okay if I took this mission and built one for FSW?

srgalahad
July 9th, 2017, 20:50
Holy thread resurrections, Batman!!!

srgalahad, this Idaho Circuit is excellent. I am currently flying and creating missions only in DTG Flight Sim World. Would it be okay if I took this mission and built one for FSW?

Be my guest!. As it's in an open thread it's in the 'public domain', but thanks for the courtesy of asking. A comment in the read-me referring to the source would be nice as it might show new FSW pilots about the larger Sim world out there.
It was a fun, and educational exercise and even has enough to it to keep me reflying it every year or so for practice.