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tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 12:26
Certain topics, opinions and rants aren't appropriate everywhere. This website has very specific policies, and we must abide by them to keep a relatively family-friendly atmosphere.

There is now a place for unbridled opinions and reviews, good and bad. I encourage anyone wishing to really let it all out to head over to www.TheFreeSpeechForums.com (http://www.TheFreeSpeechForums.com). There is a section specifically for MSFS reviews and opinions. I must warn you, it's a battleground and you may be offended, but it's the appropriate place if you must rant, let it out or staunchly defend your favorite developer. The moderation is extremely lax.

The site was literally created for this purpose. You can call anyone whatever you want there. The MSFS portion was just created today, and I'm going to try to personally keep my own posts 'cleaner' and more PC here and elsewhere as a result.

Sim-outhouse admin and mods: If you disagree with this thread, I apologize. I'm not trying to steal forum traffic, I'm simply trying to let everyone know there's a place to 'break the rules' without repercussion.

eashouse
October 10th, 2008, 12:38
Oso's (aka QMS)???

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 12:46
Oso's (aka QMS)???

????

VCN-1
October 10th, 2008, 12:50
Tigisfat

Thank you.

VCN-1

Nick C
October 10th, 2008, 12:56
????

There is already a forum like this at SOH, Oso's Outhouse:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=1228

Bone
October 10th, 2008, 13:27
It's a battleground, eh...gentlemen, start your engines.

Roger
October 10th, 2008, 13:49
I've never been keen on unbridled opinions nor those who feel the need to voice them so I don't think I'll be going there.
I'm a fan of civilisation and anarchy depresses me unless it becomes a powerful force; then it frightens me.

Henry
October 10th, 2008, 13:59
I've never been keen on unbridled opinions nor those who feel the need to voice them so I don't think I'll be going there.
I'm a fan of civilisation and anarchy depresses me unless it becomes a powerful force; then it frightens me.
me too the only place to bs is in a bar:ernae:
H

Dangerousdave26
October 10th, 2008, 14:04
me too the only place to bs is in a bar:ernae:
H

Did you say Bar Henry... :icon_lol:

Lets go :running: Igots Lake Worth Florida see you there I'm buying the first round. :icon_lol:

MCDesigns
October 10th, 2008, 14:07
While I personally like to have a say and a possible debate from time to time, I have no need for complete bashing of anyone/anything. For me the whole point of a rant is to acquire change, a possible fix to a situation, not a way to make me feel good about what I am feeling or be nasty. My point being that free speech is all well and good unless it is just to be mean spirited of which we see examples of from time to time in the forums.

jmig
October 10th, 2008, 16:01
While I personally like to have a say and a possible debate from time to time, I have no need for complete bashing of anyone/anything. For me the whole point of a rant is to acquire change, a possible fix to a situation, not a way to make me feel good about what I am feeling or be nasty. My point being that free speech is all well and good unless it is just to be mean spirited of which we see examples of from time to time in the forums.

It amazes me sometimes at what people will say on line that they would never say to another's face. Common courtesy on line seems most uncommon.

Thoe6969
October 10th, 2008, 16:08
I've never been keen on unbridled opinions nor those who feel the need to voice them so I don't think I'll be going there.
I'm a fan of civilisation and anarchy depresses me unless it becomes a powerful force; then it frightens me. Don't sound like my kind of place either,this hobby is my enjoyment & relaxation,not to fight and bitch.

N2056
October 10th, 2008, 16:20
Sites like that have no interest to me. Nothing productive will ever come from there in terms of getting developers to change something.

If anything I could see it driving talent away :isadizzy:

JSkorna
October 10th, 2008, 16:46
Now you and your friend can really bash everything. At least Flightsim.com will be better off.

N2056
October 10th, 2008, 16:48
Ouch!
I decided not to go there :kilroy:

Marlin
October 10th, 2008, 17:35
Sounds like a place to go and primal screem at top of your lungs, "#### YOU (insert name or company here)!!!!" and not be worried about being about being banned.

I most likely won't show up, but it is an interesting idea.

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 17:42
Guys, it's not really about being obscene, vulgar, classless or lude. It's more about being able to publish an honest opinion. Let's say you bought a product that was absolutely horrible. Wouldn't you wish someone had told you before you bought it? Just as people are too rude, people are too nice. Most major MSFS websites have a vested interest in not publishing outright negative reviews, especially those with stores attached. While a site like this does attract people that just want to be negative, it'll also attract honest reviews and real information.

N2056, are you going to the Miramar airshow?

Bone
October 10th, 2008, 17:47
people are too nice


Could you give us some examples? And when they were doing this?

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 17:53
While I personally like to have a say and a possible debate from time to time, I have no need for complete bashing of anyone/anything. For me the whole point of a rant is to acquire change, a possible fix to a situation, not a way to make me feel good about what I am feeling or be nasty. My point being that free speech is all well and good unless it is just to be mean spirited of which we see examples of from time to time in the forums.


You've got the exact idea. It's about free debate. You can go there and rant if you want. There are needless rants everywhere. I'll admit I'm guilty myself. The result of a rant anywhere is always up in the air. Will it accomplish change? You'll never know unless you try. At least there's a time and place now. If I knew there was a site like this as a business owner and my business was possibly under debate, I'd read it.

I may have misspoken; in the interest of freedom of speech, there is a separate section in most forums there for being mean spirited just for the sake of it if you see fit. The most moderation efforts, if you will, will be directed at keeping the areas separate so noone is driven away. To properly understand the nwe site's ways, you really gotta read the rules.

If I understand the MSFS section and it's intent there, it's only meant to accompany existing mainstream MSFS websites.

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 17:55
Could you give us some examples? And when they were doing this?


How about the reviews on the front page of flightsim.com? They're getting more honest, and sometime's they're too negative, but it wasn't always that way. I've read 'five star' reviews of some of the worst flightsim addons I've ever seen there. Isn't that being too nice? It's not really about being rude or nice. Once you've compiled enough honest opinions of a product or company, a reader can make up their own mind, right?

JoeW
October 10th, 2008, 18:07
I would rather that if someone has a problem with me to confront me with that problem and lets talk it out. I don't like to be stabbed in the back and not know about it.
If someone has a problem with something I did or created, I'd like them to ask me. No one else knows what I had in mind when I did it.

N2056
October 10th, 2008, 18:17
N2056, are you going to the Miramar airshow?

Hey, that was actually last week...I passed on Saturday because the weather was not too good, and ended up working on Sunday :banghead:

I understand the desire for people to speak their mind, and I served in the Navy for 10 years because I believe in things like freedom of speech. Personally, I know who is behind the site, and I know what brought it about. I consider myself a semi-pro developer, and after a lot of hard work I'm proud to be part of a team. That gives me a perspective on the 'hobby' that many people don't have.

I am choosing not to expound on my thoughts further as then I might as well just go to that site. I have had a few forays at other sites about developer things, and I realized that trying to defend a position with people that only see one side of the coin was a waste of my time & blood pressure. I'd rather spend my time making good planes! :d

Bone
October 10th, 2008, 18:28
I went over there just to check it out, and, it was just me. Since my personal policy is to not argue with myself, I decided to log off.

Panther_99FS
October 10th, 2008, 18:34
I've read 'five star' reviews of some of the worst flightsim addons I've ever seen there.

One person's "rotten egg" is another's "diamond"....

MCDesigns
October 10th, 2008, 19:10
Guys, it's not really about being obscene, vulgar, classless or lude. It's more about being able to publish an honest opinion. Let's say you bought a product that was absolutely horrible. Wouldn't you wish someone had told you before you bought it? Just as people are too rude, people are too nice. Most major MSFS websites have a vested interest in not publishing outright negative reviews, especially those with stores attached. While a site like this does attract people that just want to be negative, it'll also attract honest reviews and real information.

N2056, are you going to the Miramar airshow?

Problem with this is that many don't know how to make a point about a problem without being rude. It's all in how you word things and also in how sensitive the developer is. We all have seen developers in the forums that take things totally the wrong way, no matter how polite or constructive you are.

I feel the biggest issue is the lack of understanding from the consumers as to what is involved in the design process. I occasionally call vendors on things they post about with upcoming products that I know can be changed or done another way and hopefully my posts are taken as constructive, rather than negative.

As long as you are not posting in a forum where the developer doesn't want to hear any critisicm (we all know about those forums) or are doing it in a mean way, I don't see any reason why issues can't be pointed out.

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 19:34
........I'd rather spend my time making good planes! :d


That's fair enough, and I look forward to your Thorp!!

tigisfat
October 10th, 2008, 19:43
..........As long as you are not posting in a forum where the developer doesn't want to hear any critisicm (we all know about those forums) or are doing it in a mean way, I don't see any reason why issues can't be pointed out.

Sim-outhouse seems to have pretty good moderation, in that I don't think anyone feels like they can't speak their mind here. Evidence of that is the fact that this thread is even allowed to exist. Not all are like that. We all know of those forums where you can't get a good review or find out why someone's mad without things getting crazy and the thread gets locked or posts get deleted. That's exactly why forums with different moderation are needed. No, we don't need to mindlessly bash each other, and we don't need to bash people's businesses for no reason; but bad experiences really do need to get let out in broad daylight. Hasn't everyone purchased something that they wish they hadn't because of a lack of information? hasn't everyone swore off a business before even making one purchase? If you know that 'so and so of developer x told a customer to go to hell' are you likely to buy from them?

There are many great, talented and generous people in this hobby. For every two of them, there's at least one crooked and arrogant guy that gets customers through misleading them. There's also several businesses that are infamous for releasing products with glaring issues that they choose not to support. We may know about them, or think we do, but does someone brand new to the hobby? Do you want a guy who's never purchased an add-on before to get bitter and not buy from good devs?

I went a long time based on a few initial purchases thinking that there were no good payware add-ons for MSFS. It's only been in the last few years that I've changed my mind by taking a leap of faith and finding add-ons I can't live without now.

As for it being more admirable to tell these things directly to a devs face, most with problems have without avail. Even then, a customer who's made a purchase owes nothing to a developer. The developer owes the purchaser good support. If a 'jilted' customer is full of BS and just wants to complain, it'll all come out in the wash if everyone's straightforward with them, right?

Lionheart
October 10th, 2008, 20:06
One of the reasons, well, the main reason I come here is because the people here are cool. I am a Flightsim nut first, and a developer second, and the atmosphere here is positive.

We find more cool scenery and aircraft in a day and exchange notes on them without having to be rude, cut-throat, and negative sounding.

Man, if all I did was complain and ridicule and say garbage about people all the time, I dont know how I could live with myself. I would start to feel like the words that were coming from me.

I am one person your new forum could not use.




Bill

Panther_99FS
October 10th, 2008, 20:10
And what I thoroughly enjoy about Sim-Outhouse is that we're privileged to have as participating members many developers, both free & payware....

I hope foul posts don't ruin that luxury & privilege that we enjoy here...

Bone
October 10th, 2008, 20:24
Honestly, I don't know how much talk and deep discussion there can be on Dev's and their products. It's only part of the mix...certainly nothing you could base an entire forum on.

Deter, I grow weary of this conversation. Now, it is time to dance...

N2056
October 10th, 2008, 20:31
In my larval stages as a developer I spent a lot of time at Avsim...then I discovered FreeFlightDesign and found a home. For anyone that is trying to make a plane that site is 'required reading' :applause:

Lionheart pointed me at this place. I have been very happy that he did. I found the crowd to be very level-headed and fun. I appreciate the fact that there are places here for every temperament...one stop shopping! :costumes:

DrZGard
October 10th, 2008, 21:29
Lionheart pointed me here too. This is my favorite bunch of enthusiasts to hang out with cause even when there's a disagreement pretty much everyone maintains respect and control.

Lionheart
October 10th, 2008, 21:35
Speaking of which... it was Ken who brought me here when I did the ole Lear turboprop.


I hope you are well Ken and thanks for showing me SOH.






Bill

fsafranek
October 11th, 2008, 00:02
Thanks for the link Walker but I take the stuff I read in this and other forums far too personally already even though all I do is paint textures and try to make sure things get tested before release. I don't need the added aggravation. :banghead:
:ernae: