AH Bf09E: Tough as nails

[e.a.wicklund]

I love the Aeroplane Heaven 109E. It's beautiful. But does anyone else feel it's incredibly difficult to bring down?

Is there an alternative .dp file out there that isn't built like a Tiger Tank?

[Rami]

E.A. Wicklund,

This is a good time to ask. I can talk to UncleTgt about the AH Bf-109, Hurricane, and Spitfire models. They're all kind of hard to bring down. I'm (class permitting) still working on the Battle of France, (Currently working through the missions on 24 May) and am actually using all of these models. :encouragement:

[e.a.wicklund]

E.A. Wicklund,

This is a good time to ask. I can talk to UncleTgt about the AH Bf-109, Hurricane, and Spitfire models. They're all kind of hard to bring down. I'm (class permitting) still working on the Battle of France, (Currently working through the missions on 24 May) and am actually using all of these models. :encouragement:

Much appreciated. For now, I've cobbled together an alternative (an inaccurate one) from another .dp. It'll do until the experts work over it.

[UncleTgt]

Time for a gratuitous screengrab circa May 1940 ... :playful:

[e.a.wicklund]

Time for a gratuitous screengrab circa May 1940 ... :playful:

Oh man, that's gorgeous. Where is it? I can't find it.

[No Dice]

I do not think I have that one....But I do have many

http://thefreeflightsite.com/Aircraft_CFS2_2.htm

[Rami]

E.A. Wicklund,

I have it as part of the BoF project...along with a lot of others he has done for this project. Such as a few Hurricanes...

[Rami]

Hi,

He even did a Belgian...along with a Spitfire of 54 Squadron.

[e.a.wicklund]

I do not think I have that one....But I do have many

http://thefreeflightsite.com/Aircraft_CFS2_2.htm

I can't believe it. I've been looking all over for that 109E4. There's bunches of nice repaints for it here, but I couldn't find the plane. And there you have it. *sigh*

[e.a.wicklund]

E.A. Wicklund,

I have it as part of the BoF project...along with a lot of others he has done for this project. Such as a few Hurricanes...

Oh yeah. Count on me to jump into that campaign.

[sixstrings5859]

Beautiful Bf-109E . AH did a fine job. Looks almost as good as the BF-109E's for CFS3. Here's one from Pat's CFS3 BoB install. http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67886&stc=1

[Ravenna]

Time for a gratuitous screengrab circa May 1940 ... :playful:

:applause::applause::applause:

[sixstrings5859]

CFS2 has some outstanding aircraft available and motivates me to get my CFS2 ETO install up and running ASAP!

[Roxane-21]

I have it as part of the BoF project...along with a lot of others he has done for this project. Such as a few Hurricanes...

Will all of these skins be available as separated downloads as well?

[Rami]

Roxanne-21,

Hadn't thought of it until now, but I suppose they can be. There are numerous special skins for this project. :encouragement:

[e.a.wicklund]

If anyone is interested, I have made some down and dirty, quickie .dp files for AH109E and the AH-Spit1A. They aren't works of art, but perfectly servicable until more precise ones are available. They aren't as hard to shoot down as a B-29 now. I could attach them here.

[huub vink]

Oh man, that's gorgeous. Where is it? I can't find it.

When the Aeroplane Heaven Bf109 E became freeware, there were many repaints done for this model. This link will provide you with quite a few...

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links_search.php?action=show&sort=N&beforeafter=1&catlist=59&desc=1&ents=1&keys=1&literal=1&search=Heaven&childcats=1&page=2

Cheers,
Huub

[Desert Rat]

I can't believe it. I've been looking all over for that 109E4. There's bunches of nice repaints for it here, but I couldn't find the plane. And there you have it. *sigh*

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links_search.php?action=show&userid=236&sort=d

[bearcat241]

I love the Aeroplane Heaven 109E. It's beautiful. But does anyone else feel it's incredibly difficult to bring down?

Is there an alternative .dp file out there that isn't built like a Tiger Tank?

EAW, WRT the original title of this thread, you might consider just increasing the damage dices in the DP gunstations of your allied models. I took a YAS Spit Mk1 with modified gunstations up against a gaggle of AH_109E's with original DP's and had my way with them. The trick is to increase the damage dices to reflect more realistic impact damage. The guns on this particular Spit model are set at 1d1*22.

I've always found the guns of the default and most custom addon models to be way too weak for the type of ammo they historically used. For example, the British .303 ammo in CFS2 has a defo setting of just 1d1*8 - that's a pitiful showing for standard AP/incendiary .303 ammo which is somewhat in the same class as the standard .30 cal round, being shot from rapid-firing weapons. Same goes for the standard .50 cal settings in the sim at just 1d1*14...and this is supposed to represent the effects of the highly destructive armor-piercing/high-explosive/incendiary .50 cal ammo used by ALL US fighters in the war!

Beef up your gun power and you'll get it done right.

[Roxane-21]

you might consider just increasing the damage dices in the DP gunstations of your allied models.

Then, every other aircraft would become utterly fragile and would be disintegrated with one single shot...

The other (and best) solution is to modify the [SYSTEMS] section of the AH Bf-109E's DP file. I put in red the values you may try to lower:


[SYSTEMS]
system.0=%system_name.0%,2559,-30
system.1=%system_name.1%,127,-1
system.2=%system_name.2%,155,-2
system.3=%system_name.3%,189,-3
system.4=%system_name.4%,230,-4
system.5=%system_name.5%,280,-5
system.6=%system_name.6%,280,-6
system.7=%system_name.7%,230,-7
system.8=%system_name.8%,189,-8
system.9=%system_name.9%,155,-9
system.10=%system_name.10%,127,-10
system.11=%system_name.11%,167,-11
system.12=%system_name.12%,167,-12
system.13=%system_name.13%,167,-13
system.14=%system_name.14%,167,-14
system.15=%system_name.15%,167,-15
system.16=%system_name.16%,158,-16
system.17=%system_name.17%,150,-17
system.18=%system_name.18%,141,-18
system.19=%system_name.19%,133,-19
system.20=%system_name.20%,140,-21
system.21=%system_name.21%,112,39
system.22=%system_name.22%,140,-22
system.23=%system_name.23%,167,18
system.24=%system_name.24%,112,40
system.25=%system_name.25%,140,-24
system.26=%system_name.26%,112,41
system.27=%system_name.27%,471,28
system.28=%system_name.28%,38,29
system.29=%system_name.29%,8,26
system.30=%system_name.30%,57,25
system.31=%system_name.31%,14,27
system.32=%system_name.32%,699,23
system.33=%system_name.33%,699,30
system.34=%system_name.34%,47,32
system.35=%system_name.35%,14,34
system.36=%system_name.36%,8,33
system.37=%system_name.37%,38,36
system.38=%system_name.38%,471,35
system.39=%system_name.39%,9,42
system.40=%system_name.40%,8,19
system.41=%system_name.41%,8,22
system.42=%system_name.42%,69,3
system.43=%system_name.43%,10,2
system.44=%system_name.44%,62,1
system.45=%system_name.45%,6,7
system.46=%system_name.46%,185,10
system.47=%system_name.47%,132,8
system.48=%system_name.48%,36,9
system.49=%system_name.49%,17,46
system.50=%system_name.50%,17,45
system.51=%system_name.51%,64,20

The first value (system.0) is obviously too high. Only heavy bombers use a 2000+ value there. You may try to set it to 500.
The system.32 and system.33 are the wings. 699 is too high for a fighter. You may try to lower it down to 200 or 300.
The system.27 and system.38 are the wing tips. Once again, you may try to lower these figures down to 150 or 200.

[bearcat241]

Then, every other aircraft would become utterly fragile and would be disintegrated with one single shot...

A predictable assumption, but don't knock it til you try it! :devilish:

[Roxane-21]

A predictable assumption, but don't knock it til you try it! :devilish:

I tried it a while ago, and that's why I dumped this solution. :wavey:

[bearcat241]

I tried it a while ago, and that's why I dumped this solution. :wavey:


I get it, but in my experience you're always in control of the effects of these settings, yes?. Its not a zero-sum solution. Anything is editable here...your targets don't have to be "disintegrated with one single shot", right? You just back it off a bit.

[bearcat241]

As I tangled with these models with these gun settings, i found the fight to be more realistic in that the targets still didn't come apart easily and did a lot of burning, smoking and puffing before their demise. This in line with most WWII A2A gun footage, suggesting that maybe the generally accepted system damage parameters used for our models are too light - tougher is better with improved ammo effects. Planes would be savagely hit, with pieces flying off, burning and smoking profusely, but rarely do you see many losing entire wings and whole tails.

[e.a.wicklund]

Guys, IMHO you're both right. Roxane, those were the values I was looking for. I've been out of CFS2 for so long I'd forgotten. I will definitely apply that. I see some other values that can come down too. This is a cleaner solution than my quickie .dp fixes.

Bearcat, I would agree that some gun values are too low. In the AH Spit the .303s are set to 1D*3.1 and that's too weak. I reset them to 1D*11. After getting a tutorial on fixing .dp files for better AI aggression, the author offered alternative gun settings. I have seen the light since then and reset guns to his suggestions.

That said, I'll not change the .dp damage settings for ALL my aircraft because of unsusual settings in just three. Seems to me that I can just change the .dp in those three and largely leave the rest alone. Much less time at the keyboard, more time flying.

[bub]

Hi All,
I fooled with the dice numbers and found that bumping up the ,30 cal/.303 to 18 and the .50 cal to 28 makes it more real and looks like the actual done as per gun camera footage. Something to fool with, just a thought.
Bob

[Roxane-21]

I agree in some DP files gun damage values are too low. I often change them for these values:

0.30/0.303 cal (7.62/7.7mm) : 1D*8
0.50 cal (12.7mm) : 1D*15
20mm : 1D*24

Then, I adjust the [SYSTEMS] section values of each aircraft as explained above, in order to make them suffer realistically from gun hits.

Gun camera footage you find on Youtube shows the best results. In real life, fighters could sometimes take many hits but keep flying. That's why there were three kinds of claims:
- destroyed (wing or tail breaking out, aircraft seen impacting ground or pilot seen bailing out)
- probably destroyed (aircraft smoking and/or burning, but still flying)
- damaged (visible hits on the aircraft, but no significant damage)

[UncleTgt]

It's tricky to get the balance right. Even the different ways an aircraft dp file is constructed can have a huge effect on "toughness". For example the AH BOB aircraft (Bf109E, Hurricane, Spitfire) have 4 or 5 hit boxes per wing. An awful lot of hits don't do anything other than reduce the "AIRCRAFT" total damage. Put them against a single wing & wingtip dp file opponent & they can take damage all day long.
A consistent hit box method & corresponding gun power calculation is necessary to achieve some sort of balance.

IIRC I've posted these before. They are the tools I use to adjust gun hit points & damage box points to try to achieve that balance. I have an excel spreadsheet for calculating gun damage dice, & a newer, developing spreadsheet I use as a guide when adjusting hit box damage points. The latter spreadsheet is oversimplistic, but it's a start.

[bearcat241]

Good points UT, especially on the comments about box counts. The 4 or 5 hit boxes per wing is my preferred method in all DP construction, as well as with the fuselage profiles. If I download a model with only one or two boxes its wings or fuselage configuration, i immediately go to work on it. I keep the box sizes tight and to a minimum to avoid hits well outside of the visual model.

I also found the 'interrupt' column in the Secs per round section of your gunmounts doc of particular interest. The interruptor mech has never been brought up in past forum conversations here about secs per round values in gunstations. Clearly this should have an impact on gunfire effects for models firing through the prop.