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tailspin45
December 21st, 2018, 10:21
Drop-in GCA (Ground Control Approach) add-on for Manfred Jahn's C-47 V3 coming soon.

Approach Controller provides vectors to PAR intercept, GCA Final Controller talks you down to the runway threshold.

Adaptable to other aircraft with some fiddling. Works in FSX and P3D.

No, we don't know when it will be released, but "real soon now"... IOW, when Manfred's done. (Clips in the video were recorded live, getting close.)

A short history of the 'blind landing' systems is available as PDF here (http://justplaneprints.com/wp-content/Ground%20Controlled%20Approach%20V6.pdf). It will be part of the final package.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IoKFo02nmw

gray eagle
December 21st, 2018, 10:48
That's awesome! In my old Navy days GCA stood for gonna crash anyway....:untroubled:

blanston12
December 21st, 2018, 11:08
very interesting.

What is this GCA you speak of?

banjoman1960
December 21st, 2018, 11:17
very interesting.

What is this GCA you speak of?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPtTJ9hS9IU


cheers Ralf

SSI01
December 21st, 2018, 12:06
For a practical demonstration of GCA look up "The Big Lift" with Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas. It's shown in action in the film. This was the device that enabled the Berlin Airlift to be pulled off in an excellent manner.

MrZippy
December 21st, 2018, 12:23
For a practical demonstration of GCA look up "The Big Lift" with Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas. It's shown in action in the film. This was the device that enabled the Berlin Airlift to be pulled off in an excellent manner.

If memory serves, wasn't Jimmy Stewart talked down in, "Strategic Air Command", on his final into Kadena, Okinawa, Japan flying the B-47? I remember very low cloud cover and raining cat and dogs. I remember left or right of center-line and above or below the glideslope.

https://youtu.be/iV1hVLGLZ-w This clip doesn't elaborate that much about the approach in but he does thank GCA at the end.

SSI01
December 21st, 2018, 12:38
At the end of a blind approach in "The Big Lift," one of the pilots remarks that landing at Tempelhof in those days was like "landing in the Rose Bowl." Our property manager in HI was a young USAF captain and C-54 pilot at the time who made many, many blind approaches to Berlin like those shown in this film and heartily seconded the other pilot's observation. Absolute precision was required for the approach to Tempelhof, primarily because the Russians had allotted approach paths to Western aircraft and zealously guarded the perimeters of those paths. Bad weather grounded the Russian aircraft but the weather was in many ways a worse enemy. Another reason for the precision in bad weather was that operating margins were so close for Tempelhof the US had to tear down several blocks of apartment buildings off the EOR to allow the GCA approaches to be flown safely. The C-54s, C-47s, and others were literally landing between apartment blocks; it was possible to look out one of the top floor windows of the neighboring apartment blocks and see C-54s flying BELOW where you were standing, while on short final. The degree of cooperation between GCA controllers and pilots, and the flying skills of the pilots involved, were both phenomenal.

mrogers
December 21st, 2018, 12:48
Ah yes, GCA = Ground Control Approach

YoYo
December 21st, 2018, 12:48
It looks promising! :wavey:
Nice trailer also. TY!

Bjoern
December 21st, 2018, 13:05
Another reason for the precision in bad weather was that operating margins were so close for Tempelhof the US had to tear down several blocks of apartment buildings off the EOR to allow the GCA approaches to be flown safely. The C-54s, C-47s, and others were literally landing between apartment blocks; it was possible to look out one of the top floor windows of the neighboring apartment blocks and see C-54s flying BELOW where you were standing, while on short final.

I need proof to believe that. The huge gap on the final of 27L is (partly at least) a former cemetery and has pretty much always been there. And the buildings alongside that clearing are only five stories high. To see a C-54 or C-47 from above, the pilot would have had to clip the perimeter fence.

However, the GCA controllers and later the ILS did grwat work, seeing how winters in Berlin tend to be months worth of depressing weather and there only being a handful of crashes in 40 years of Corridor flying.

thunderstreak
December 21st, 2018, 13:59
Wow, very cool, looking forward to trying this out.
My father flew GCA’s in T-33’s and F-84F’s in Europe in the 50’s.
Hopefully the slower approach speed of the C-47 will give us a fighting chance!

blanston12
December 21st, 2018, 14:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPtTJ9hS9IU


cheers Ralf

Is there a simple description of it without having to spend 20 minutes watching a video?

banjoman1960
December 21st, 2018, 14:14
Is there a simple description of it without having to spend 20 minutes watching a video?

also see PDF from first post here (http://justplaneprints.com/wp-content/Ground%20Controlled%20Approach%20V6.pdf).,

MrZippy
December 21st, 2018, 14:16
Is there a simple description of it without having to spend 20 minutes watching a video?

OK, you have ATC guys on the ground using a couple of different types of radar bringing you to a point in your apporach to the airport that they can give you acurate centerline and glideslope information as you descend and approach the runway. This isn't an automatic ILS approach.

tailspin45
December 21st, 2018, 14:29
For a practical demonstration of GCA look up "The Big Lift" with Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas. It's shown in action in the film. This was the device that enabled the Berlin Airlift to be pulled off in an excellent manner.

https://archive.org/details/The_Big_Lift# (https://archive.org/details/The_Big_Lift#)

1950 movie about Berlin Airlift. GCA is running theme. Lots of C-54s, DC-3s, and Montgomery Cliff.

The cemetery Bjoern mentioned is in the script and the buildings are seen from the air. "Like landing in the Rose Bowl."

tailspin45
December 21st, 2018, 14:36
Is there a simple description of it without having to spend 20 minutes watching a video?
In the original post: "Approach Controller provides vectors to PAR intercept, GCA Final Controller talks you down to the runway threshold."

Alan_A
December 21st, 2018, 14:40
Here's another example - the final approach at the end of the original (1970) movie Airport. I don't know if GCA (here called PRA for "Precision Radar Approach") was still in civilian use at that time, but it's a good dramatic device - much more exciting for the audience than watching the captain stare at the ILS needles...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ244ligibk

Navy Chief
December 21st, 2018, 16:22
I have been wanting this for YEARS!!! NC

Mike71
December 21st, 2018, 17:03
From 1965 to end of my Navy flying days in 1984 (Air Boss and flew a desk after that!!), we only had PAR/GCA for precision approaches in tactical aircraft. In fact, during flight training (jet pipeline) we had no ILS equipment and were never taught anything about it. During those years most military bases had at least ASR (Airport Surveillance Radar, sort of like localizer only), but most had full PAR capability if they were jet runway capable. To land IFR at a civilian field it had to have a TACAN or at least ASR capability.

In the mid-70's carriers introduced ACLS -Automatic Carrier Landing System - which used a needles presentation, but the actual shipboard methodology was totally different from ground-based ILS, though the results were in the end roughly the same.

I can say that military GCA controllers were all terrific. One advantage was that you got a clearer sense / picture, sooner, of deviations from centerline or glideslope. Also a little safer in that they made it clear that you were at minimums and to land if runway in sight or wave off (with instructions as to heading and altitude).

VFR, it was common to get a practice GCA from a "student under instruction and supervision". No problem, and usually tried to give them a complimentary debrief or humorous "OK, a little ragged but you're getting there" summary.

A typical Navy jet cross country or practice instrument flight was a Hi-TACAN approach to a GCA final, to a T&G, then around the box with radar vectors for another practice GCA, etc till you landed, got fuel and a burger - or had enough fuel to go somewhere else.

Hi-TACAN was our bread and butter IFR letdown rather than an enroute descent. In a true tactical scenario enroute descents don't allow much flexibility in changing the recovery scenario (delays, etc). Hi-TACAN descents were usually a teardrop from over the TACAN at idle, speed brakes out, -4000 fpm at 250 KIAS to about 5000 AGL, then decreasing ROD and KIAS to dirty up for either a continued TACAN non-precision final or GCA/ASR pickup.

We also had UHF ADF and used the same type of letdown, but of course no DME. UHF ADF was military unique. I do not recall them being at any civil fields anywhere in the world that I flew (unless joint use).

JosefK
December 21st, 2018, 21:35
Looks exciting!

SkippyBing
December 22nd, 2018, 01:18
VFR, it was common to get a practice GCA from a "student under instruction and supervision". No problem, and usually tried to give them a complimentary debrief or humorous "OK, a little ragged but you're getting there" summary.


When I was going through basic rotary wing training in 2004 it wasn't unheard of for the instructor pilots to slow down to the hover during a GCA to see if the student ATC noticed. If they didn't some of them would reverse back up the glideslope.

mgr
December 22nd, 2018, 02:17
Hiya,

Would be cool feature, in the Netherlands PAR approaches were very common for the military and civil tubelines landing on military fields. Only to be replaced by ILS installation 10 year ago or so (could the 15 years).

Example of a tubeliner doing a GCA/PAR approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re6ExGDOKbc

Marcel

jtrandttr
December 22nd, 2018, 22:46
My instrument instructor would take me down to MCAS El Toroin the early 70s to shoot GCAs as part of my training. Generally, they would accommodate us (i.e., civiliantypes), to give the military controllers some GCA practice. Flying 90 knots on approach didn’t always mixwell with F-4 traffic, but the controllers did a good job integratingeveryone. The air traffic controller wouldget you on final with simple vectors and altitude instructions and once youwere on final would hand you off to the GCA controller (I recall there was nofrequency change, but it was just you and the GCA controller—not sure how theyaccomplished that).

Azimuth commands were “Turn Right”, “Stop Turn” followed by “Turn Left”, “Stop Turn” and so on. Altitude commands on approach were “On glide path”,“Above glide path”, “Below glide path”, etc. Add to that an occasional distance update (“mile and a quarter totouchdown”). You were expected to execute the command—there was no read back. The last transmission was something like “Oncenterline, over the numbers” which was followed by a go-around since touchdownon military asphalt was strictly forbidden. I think MCAS El Toro discontinued the practiceby the mid/late 70s (I tried to run some of my own instrument students throughthe exercise but was denied).

I’ll be interested to see how much this ends upawakening some dusty memories.

Tom

stearmandriver
December 23rd, 2018, 00:43
This is really interesting! It'll bring a whole new dimension to anyone simulating the Airlift flying. Of course, it'll fit right in for much early propliner flying all over the place, too. Any details on how it will work? I'm just curious if it will only be available for certain hardcoded runways... or can it be made to work at any airport?

Great work... this will be cool!

banjoman1960
December 23rd, 2018, 01:24
This is really interesting! It'll bring a whole new dimension to anyone simulating the Airlift flying. Of course, it'll fit right in for much early propliner flying all over the place, too. Any details on how it will work? I'm just curious if it will only be available for certain hardcoded runways... or can it be made to work at any airport?

Great work... this will be cool!

as a Beta-tester i can say it will work at any airport.

cheers Ralf

tailspin45
December 23rd, 2018, 13:08
TAny details on how it will work? I'm just curious if it will only be available for certain hardcoded runways... or can it be made to work at any airport?
I've been doing some beta testing so I can answer these questions.

Setup is easy. You simply drop a folder called panel.GCA into C-47V3 with the modern VC and select the proper panel.cfg for FSX or P3D which is included. (Banjoman and I have it working in C-47 with VVC (see video in original post), and he has it working in C-54, C-119, and others so it is adaptable to other aircraft with some fiddling.)

What you get with the new panel is the amazing AILA gauge that provides all kinds of functions that Manfred has adapted (with permission) to provide an Approach Control and GCA for any runway...actually any spot you want to call the runway end, which will give helo drivers a GCA capability for North Sea platforms or wherever. (I've tried it on a stationary aircraft carrier and it worked fine. Still pondering how to make it work on a moving one so the vNavy folks can also have CCA capabilities. No clue what happens in a sim if a helo backs up the glideslope as, I'm told, has happened in real life.)

So to use the Approach Control and GCA capabilities you open the AILA panel (Shift -6) and select an airport and runway, set an intercept point (typically 8nm for a 3.0º glideslope), and then click a button to engage the Approach Controller function. A sweet voice on the radio says, "This is Approach Control. Standby for vectors to runway XXX." Then she warns you about terrain clearance and gives you headings to the GCA intercept where she turns you over to the GCA Controller who talks you down. (You can skip the Approach Control part and simply fly to about a 10 miles straight-in and contract GCA directly.)

There are some geometry issue which may cause Approach to redirect you. For example, she really doesn't like it when you arrive beak to beak with departing aircraft, flying down the departure corridor. And you need to be outside 15nm on initial call so she can vector you into the GCA box pattern and get you turned in toward the GCA glideslope intercept point, all tidy like.

One important point to keep in mind: so far she can't provide terrain and obstacle clearance, that's your responsibility. Where available I use VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS approach plates to get Minimum Safe Altitude (MSA) info and use that until on the final approach course. You can also get obstacle clearance numbers off Sectionals and enroute charts. I use SKyVector.com.

Anyway, once you or Approach have you somewhere near the PAR glideslope intercept point, typically 8 miles and about 2500' AGL, the GCA controller will give you heading and decent advice down to about the threshold. What you'll hear is "You're well left, you're left,you're on centerline, you're' right, you're well right" and "You're well below, you're below, you're on glideslope, you're above, you're well above" about every 4 seconds, as appropriate.

But if you're precise you'll hear, "On glideslope, on centerline, " a phrase that has passed into aviation history. But not if you fly FSX or P3D.

The Big Lift about the Berlin Airlift features authentic, GCA, C-54s, and DC-3s (with some footage missing and lots post-war propaganda). Available free at https://archive.org/details/The_Big_Lift#
Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart and Airport have GCA sequences, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Flight Command (1940) available from Amazon streaming for $3 is good but typically schmaltzy WW2 flick about the development of GCA.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65939&stc=1

tailspin45
December 23rd, 2018, 13:31
Is it just me or is editing a post impossible? When I click "Edit Post" I get a blank text box, with nothing to edit. Happens in Safari and Chrome. I was able to edit this short post. Must be related to length.

Anyway, here's an important edit: What you'll hear is [U]a heading assignment such as, "Turn right heading 039," or "Turn left 310," and You're well left, you're left, you're on centerline, you're' right, you're well right" and "You're well below, you're below, you're on glideslope, you're above, you're well above" about every 4 seconds, as appropriate. You'll also get some hints such as "check gear down."

simulloyd
December 23rd, 2018, 13:42
I am looking forward to this. Not since the Aviano Air Base for FS9 payware by Cloud9 has there been any sort of GCA functionality in flight simulator. You know an airport's equipment needs calibration when you hear - on course on glide slope all the way on final to a PAR and your instructor tears your hood off and asks you if you think you can make the landing because you are about 20 feet right of the right edge of the runway.