PBR Texturing: Introduction to 3D Workflow in Photoshop

[gman5250]

Everything you wanted to know about Physically Based Rendering....(Almost).

PBR Texturing will change the way you approach FSX, FSX SE and Prepar3D modeling. The workflow allows the developer to create texture, bump, occlusion and specular lighting in real time, in Photoshop. This short video will show you how Quixel and Photoshop can dramatically enhance your workflow.

Video Link:

https://www.real.video/5827963522001


https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1896/43615968244_a445c27b97_o.jpg

[TuFun]

Thanks "G"!!!

[greenie]

wow !..hypnotised with that rotating object and that music - I never thought an a/c unit could give me a spiritual experience !! lol . magic stuff .

[roger-wilco-66]

Great video, thanks for sharing, Gordon. I really hope we can start working with native PBR materials in the simulation soon.


Here's a WIP of the C-7A Caribou pilot's seat I design in the moment. Screenshot is from Quixel's 3Do :


https://www.dropbox.com/s/o85fn9v7xwezycs/screen03.png?dl=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hdgerv0klg1ta0h/screen04.png?dl=1


Cheers,
Mark

[scotth6]

Man, that's a good looking seat!

I love the Caribou. I saw one when I was really young at an Army demonstration, and they usually have one at the Avalon Airshow.

Good luck with the project.

[gman5250]

Great video, thanks for sharing, Gordon. I really hope we can start working with native PBR materials in the simulation soon.


Cheers,
Mark


I knew you would catch this post Mark.

I like that seat....a lot! I second the motion for PBR. :encouragement::encouragement:

[gman5250]

Thanks "G"!!! Good to see ya Ted. And...thanks.

[Jim Goldman]

I like, but this is above my pay grade... seriously, nice tutorial..

[n4gix]

wow !..hypnotised with that rotating object and that music - I never thought an a/c unit could give me a spiritual experience !! lol . magic stuff .

It was putting me to sleep. While interesting, as an aircraft modeler/coder/wonk most of this is of no real help. For scenery folks it certainly shows off some very interesting effects. Of course, I have no idea how much Quixel or CS6 would cost!

Very little was detailed enough though to actually learn other than he clicked here and then there... :dizzy:

[awstub]

It's $79.00 US.


It was putting me to sleep. While interesting, as an aircraft modeler/coder/wonk most of this is of no real help. For scenery folks it certainly shows off some very interesting effects. Of course, I have no idea how much Quixel or CS6 would cost!

Very little was detailed enough though to actually learn other than he clicked here and then there... :dizzy:

[roger-wilco-66]

It was putting me to sleep. While interesting, as an aircraft modeler/coder/wonk most of this is of no real help. For scenery folks it certainly shows off some very interesting effects. Of course, I have no idea how much Quixel or CS6 would cost!

Very little was detailed enough though to actually learn other than he clicked here and then there... :dizzy:

I've seen many Quixel tutorials and this is one of the best introductive ones, in my opinion. It nicely shows the workflow, from 3dsmax, working with multi-sub materials (the seat above has nine different materials) that define the different pbr materials later in Quixel, rendering the diffuse map, generating the AO map that you can plug into Quixel, exporting the OBJ, and so on. Then building the project in Quixel, assigning the materials to the color IDs of the diffuse map, and some basic manipulations. It does not cover the more advanced techniques (e.g. adding own layers or plugging in own maps like the details mentioned at the end), but that can't be the intention of an introduction to the complete workflow.

Another thing is translating the textures into non pbr directx materials (diffuse, diff-alpha, and spec) so they can be used in the sim. Quixel has an exporter for that. That would be a nice subject for another video, since it would cover what is most interesting for us devs.

By the way, part of the Quixel package is NDo, which is an absolutely awesome normal maps editor / generator, which in my opinion is worth the price for the package alone and can be used for making the bump maps of aircraft or other models. It works independently from the rest.

During a few times of the year the price for Quixel is reduced. I think I got it for 59 $ or so. The other products they offer are also interesting, like the Mixer / Bridge or Megascan. As for Photoshop, I use the basic Adobe Cloud version (PS and Lightroom) which costs a few bucks a month and is always up to date. That is money well worth invested because I use it all the time.

Cheers,
Mark

[hairyspin]

I’m waiting for the tut that shows how all the pretty work - which is all the above video shows so far - gets turned into useable FS textures, but I expect that’s where Gordon is going next.

[mjahn]

An impressive video, clearly the shape of things to come, and worth all the cost & effort. Now all depends on the interface that P3D is going to offer.

[gman5250]

Precisely where I'm going next Tom.

I am of the opinion that we will be embracing PBR eventually, and probably sooner than later. Like Mark said, there are already tools to migrate PBR based workflow into existing platforms...including FSX, once the technique is understood.

This video was indeed, intended to be a look inside the basic work environment for those who are interested, but not acquainted with the new work flow. This introduces the question...is there enough interest in a dedicated PBR thread to warrant further tutorials and discussion? I think so, and I'm sure Mark and a few others would second the motion.

The video I posted gives the PBR Workflow 101, nuts and bolts overview of getting a project into Quixel and getting a feel for what is available once inside. Future video could take a project, like a VC, and break out elements like panel, radios or controls into individual components ready for PBR detailing before being re-integrated into the composite project. Elements like bump mapping in NDO, or fine painting techniques for various assets would make fine subject matter for detailed, and digestible video tutorials.

I have two aircraft projects that are already in Quixel work flow. It would be easy enough to record work sessions and break them into training video if there is an interest.

[Mach3DS]

Precisely where I'm going next Tom. I am of the opinion that we will be embracing PBR eventually, and probably sooner than later. Like Mark said, there are already tools to migrate PBR based workflow into existing platforms...including FSX, once the technique is understood.This video was indeed, intended to be a look inside the basic work environment for those who are interested, but not acquainted with the new work flow. This introduces the question...is there enough interest in a dedicated PBR thread to warrant further tutorials and discussion? I think so, and I'm sure Mark and a few others would second the motion.The video I posted gives the PBR Workflow 101, nuts and bolts overview of getting a project into Quixel and getting a feel for what is available once inside. Future video could take a project, like a VC, and break out elements like panel, radios or controls into individual components ready for PBR detailing before being re-integrated into the composite project. Elements like bump mapping in NDO, or fine painting techniques for various assets would make fine subject matter for detailed, and digestible video tutorials. I have two aircraft projects that are already in Quixel work flow. It would be easy enough to record work sessions and break them into training video if there is an interest.HUGELY interested Gordon!! P3Dv4 is getting PBR according to LM. That much is known. Also according to LM, v5 will introduce (good chance) a new gfx engine which will undoubtedly be PBR based. So, if you're a developer and your not familiar with PBR or the tools, you'll be left behind. It's the future, and it's coming to a simulator near you. If you've played any racing sims like Forza or any XBOX/PS4 games all new console games are all PBR. It's the current visual standard. Thanks Gordon.

[Mach3DS]

My latest from DCS

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1870/42579950330_df3f250eb6_o.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1890/30521127228_d1a10e8587_o.jpg

[TuFun]

It would be easy enough to record work sessions and break them into training video if there is an interest.

Very interested in following your progress "G". Training videos are an excellent idea!

TeD

[hairyspin]

Bill, Quixel Suite 2 works with Photoshop CS4 (64-bit) and newer. Right now it's on discount and costs $79 – sadly I have a lot more calls on that $79 and won't be getting it just yet

[gman5250]

My latest from DCS


Hey Rick...I knew you would be on the short list. lol

Great, great pics....love 'em.:very_drunk:

[Sundog]

Thanks for this GMan, I have so many projects going on, not related to FS, that I haven't had time to dig into Quixel. Bookmarked for future reference. :very_drunk:

[Paul K]

That's a lovely repaint of a much-loved model, and I'm full appreciative of it, but what does PBR actually do ? The DCS Mig-15 already has a selection of colour schemes, and very good they are too, so I'm a bit lost as to what benefits PBR brings to the user. If you are a developer, then no doubt the advantages are manifest, but to this untrained eye there isn't anything that is immediately obvious.

Avoiding initialisms, acronyms or esoteric techno-talk, could someone explain the basic benefits of PBR to this layman ?

[IanP]

PBR is "Physically Based Rendering" which means that rather than being 'flat' textures which you need to apply manual shading to, what you do is apply materials with certain properties and the rendering engine creates the textures, meaning that you can have realtime reflections, shadows, if the engine works properly then you can add dirt, snow, whatever, buildup on the model over time as well.

It improves graphics phenomenally. I've been using parts of it (mainly Ambient Occlusion bakes) on my models for ages, but because my models aren't for the user, you very rarely see what the effects are capable of.

Here's quite a nice quick example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cSSIixRTUQ

Ian P.

[gman5250]

That's a lovely repaint of a much-loved model, and I'm full appreciative of it, but what does PBR actually do ? The DCS Mig-15 already has a selection of colour schemes, and very good they are too, so I'm a bit lost as to what benefits PBR brings to the user. If you are a developer, then no doubt the advantages are manifest, but to this untrained eye there isn't anything that is immediately obvious.

Avoiding initialisms, acronyms or esoteric techno-talk, could someone explain the basic benefits of PBR to this layman ?

Just think of the elements of an object i.e. color, reflection, specular, gloss etc. as being the products of real world physics. Light bounces off of an object and behaves in a certain way. PBR renders those elements based upon the actual physics, rather than someone painting a canvas as something that resembles actual physics. The PBR engine creates a more real world representation of an object, and then bakes it in to a format that a simulator can utilize.

[TuFun]

Posted today...


FSElite has obtained verified documents that suggest that Lockheed Martin are preparing to release Prepar3D V4.4 in Q4 of 2018. Even more exciting is the fact that these leaked documents point to version 4.4 being the first step to enabling Physically Based Rendering (PBR) textures in the simulator.

The internal email dated August 13th states that “Prepar3D V4.4’s beta is available now”.

https://fselite.net/news/prepar3d-v4-4-possibly-coming-q4-2018-with-pbr/

[Mach3DS]

You can see from these images, particularly the first.... There's no comparison. P3D simply doesn't look like this. In fact at the moment, it can't look like this. The lighting engine will not allow it to.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1861/43505718515_2f39f25721_o.png


https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1858/44364513762_b4512ff675_o.png


https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1891/43505719195_b1c5a922c4_o.png


https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1868/44364515222_1a35c7a964_o.png

[Paul K]

Thanks for the info and links, gentlemen. I think I can understand the explanation, but maybe not quite appreciate the advance over self-shadowing, dynamic reflections, alpha channels and so on. But if you all say it's good, then it's good. Thank you again

[Bjoern]

X-Plane has PBR and it's quite good.

https://i.imgur.com/MuLpDxU.png

[YoYo]

PBR will be the next reason to move to P3Dv4, especially that it will be in P3Dv4.4 perhaps:
https://fselite.net/news/prepar3d-v4-4-possibly-coming-q4-2018-with-pbr/

[gman5250]

I read and took under consideration all of the comments following the first video. I have adjusted my approach a tad to address the issues people brought up.

I'll begin by clarifying what is required to use Quixel, specifically cost and complexity.

Forward
Quixel can be used in conjunction with these free platforms to generate art.

GMAX
ModelConverterX
Gimp

Mesh can be fully prepared for Quixel using these programs to generate assets for any Quixel project.


Textures generated in Quixel are easily converted for FSX/P3Dv2/P3Dv3 and P3Dv4. Slight tweaks will enable the 64bit features of a Quixel file for the 64 bit simulators.
The export process is exactly the same as multi layered FSX files prepared in Photoshop for texture, bump, alpha and specular files. Quixel layered files are simply flattened and exported with proper naming conventions as either BMP or DDS. FSX and current P3D engines will process those files in the same way any traditional bitmap file.
If and when Prepar3D moves into a dedicated PBR engine, Quixel PBR rendering will become fully realized, but until that time anyone can take advantage of the point and click interface to generate textures they previously thought out of their artistic reach.

One important thing to bear in mind is Quixel is not a purely PBR oriented workflow. Textures generated in the application can be used on any FSX or P3D mesh.

GMAX and Quixel
Gmax can generate mesh that can be converted to FBX or OBJ using ModelConverterX. In fact, any mesh that can be imported into MCX can be converted for use in Quixel.
Generate your GMAX mesh and export as .mdl. Import the .mdl into MCX and export the object as either FBX or OBJ. This mesh will import perfectly into Quixel in either format.


Mini Tutorial
I'll prepare a fully detailed video of the process I used to generate this project, and post that link here.

This project used a .mdl file that I imported to MCX and exported out as both FBX and OBJ. I prepared a single layered mesh in 3ds Max with three material ID tags for the barrel/receiver, buttstock/handguard and magazine. GMAX will do the same task. You can add as many color IDs layers as you would like here, I chose three for this simple illustration.

Quixel will support multiple dedicated mesh layers, but bear in mind that numerous Photoshop layers are generated for each mesh layer and this can become problematic if working at 4K and 8K. You will need a capable system to work at that level. I prefer a single mesh layer with color ID map to select specific components. These steps can be done in either GMAX or 3DStudio Max. BTW, if you want to try Studio free for a year, go down to your local college and enroll in any class to qualify for the student version of 3ds Max. That's a screamin' deal.

Step two, I prepared a color ID map based on the three materials that compose the mesh. Quixel will use the color template to assign textures to the mesh.
For the M4 Carbine in Quixel, I chose a polymer for the barrel/receiver, a camo polymer for the buttstock/handguard and gunmetal for the magazine.

Third, I created an ambient occlusion map, which is optional for this project. Quixel can use a baked AO map, or generate one automatically if one is not pre-baked in. I prefer to bake in my own AO, then layer it into the final bitmap render for the finished simulation model. Quixel generates specular layers in most of the textures. A single texture may consist of three color layers, gloss layers and specular layers. I have found that their specular files work better in most applications than hand painted specular files.

All of the art in this project was prepared by adding Quixel textures and a basic point and click application. This art is now ready for final detailing i.e. grip texturing and appropriate metal stamping and engraving. These details are easily added as layers in Photoshop.

Total production time...nine minutes from gray mesh to the renderings shown here. Not bad.


The raw FBX mesh with ambient occlusion applied.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1897/44469998112_79b2f7fd17_o.jpg

After application of three scan based materials to the mesh.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1900/44469996092_285b34cdf0_o.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1853/44469997202_4f473504ea_o.jpg

[gman5250]

This is the model prepared using the OBJ mesh, and a few different texture choices.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1854/44469990292_1774cb9ee2_o.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1883/44469985872_35f1253709_o.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1896/44469988972_b5af0777ef_o.jpg

[kalong]

PBR will be the next reason to move to P3Dv4, especially that it will be in P3Dv4.4 perhaps:
https://fselite.net/news/prepar3d-v4-4-possibly-coming-q4-2018-with-pbr/

if it realized in P3D, it would awesome upgrade.

[TuFun]

This short overview video will give you an idea how creating PBR Materials using Blender for modeling (free) and Quixel suite with photoshop 6. This is the future!

https://www.linkedin.com/learning/creating-pbr-materials-with-blender-quixel/welcome?autoplay=true&trk=course_preview&upsellOrderOrigin=trk_default_learning

[IanP]

I've got Quixel Suite and have used it with Blender too, with varying degrees of success. One thing I will say is that it is recommended NOT to allow Quixel Suite to create your curvature map - it doesn't do a very good job at all. There are other tools that can do this better.

Ian P.

[TuFun]

An article about that issue using Quixel DDO creating curvature maps. Don't know if Quixel has been update since this article. I have no way of testing. No computer since December. The program xNormal is use to do the job which is free.

https://polycount.com/discussion/140462/edges-on-geometry-ddo-curvature-map-creation-bug-best-practice

(https://polycount.com/discussion/140462/edges-on-geometry-ddo-curvature-map-creation-bug-best-practice)

[roger-wilco-66]

Hi,

that issue of edges in the geometry was was solved, at least from my perception. The Quixel curvature algorithm was "bending" the curvature around hard edges, making them less visible, but I have not seen this since I started to use it around two years ago.


Cheers,
Mark

[TuFun]

Thanks Mark good to know.

[roger-wilco-66]

Just look at Gordons's images above. E.g. the barrel of the gun. I guess there were no smoothing groups referenced to the uv shells. So Quixels curvature calculation left the hard edges on the rather low poly geometry.

Cheers,
Mark

[gman5250]

Just look at Gordons's images above. E.g. the barrel of the gun. I guess there were no smoothing groups referenced to the uv shells. So Quixels curvature calculation left the hard edges on the rather low poly geometry.

Cheers,
Mark

The caps in the second post are on an un-smoothed mesh. I went back, smoothed the mesh and did the second rendering. The caps in the top post are the smoothed model. Hope this helps. :encouragement:

[roger-wilco-66]

Proof of concept, Gordon :-)

[gman5250]

Curvature Options in Quixel 2

I usually let Quixel bake an initial curvature map when it creates the project.

There is a ton of flexibility for curvature built into the interface that lets you modify curvature properties using sliders. This can be done for each layer that uses a dynamask. The mask will loosen or tighten along with a number of variables around the three dimensional polys. This can also be enhanced with poly smoothing applied to the mesh before exporting the FBX.

The first menu (at left) with layers for each color ID mesh component.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1851/42734629580_2f067b23d2_o.jpg


After selecting a layer and clicking the Dynamask option, the Dynamask Editor opens with a fully adjustable set of variables for curvature. I tightened up the curvature a bit to get the wear around the edges a bit heavier.

This cap also shows the normal mapping that is automatically generated when selecting a texture. The ability to move the mesh and light in three dimensions takes the guesswork out of bumps, spec, gloss, curvature and weathering, all of which are adjustable. Pretty trick.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1874/44543217761_86e84fdb99_o.jpg

[IanP]

It's a really clever and inexpensive piece of software that I've definitely not explored the full potential of (primarily because my modelling isn't good enough to make best use of it.)

I'm glad to see that others are getting much more from the package - are any of you using Megascans as well? I played with it pre-release but that is too expensive for me at present. It looks like for scenery that uses PBR in a 64-bit sim, it'll be a phenomenal resource.

Ian P.

[gman5250]

It's a really clever and inexpensive piece of software that I've definitely not explored the full potential of (primarily because my modelling isn't good enough to make best use of it.)

I'm glad to see that others are getting much more from the package - are any of you using Megascans as well? I played with it pre-release but that is too expensive for me at present. It looks like for scenery that uses PBR in a 64-bit sim, it'll be a phenomenal resource.

Ian P.

I'm using Megascans Ian. I opted for the "Hobby" subscription for starters, but will upgrade to the commercial license when I begin to use the assets in future payware. The Megascans Mixer and Bridge are fantastic for creating and organizing assets. Once the interface is set up, the custom scans from Megascans are automatically inserted into the Quixel work flow.

I'm still in the learning curve, but anyone with Photoshop experience will pick up the logic of the Quixel software without any problems. The learning curve for PBR, as it relates to simulators like Prepar3D, is going to be comprehensive but well worth the investment of time and capital. Once Prepar3D goes full PBR, our flight simulators are going to be...well...magnificent. IMO

[lagaffe]

Some of the posts above you were talking about a process using Quixel and Gimp, yet at the moment I don't think Quixel can work with The Gimp ... maybe in a while but not yet unless a solution already exists ?

After some unsuccessful attempts with Quixel (repeated crashes with 16 GB of RAM), I decided to explore another software of the same kind: Substance Painter (SP).

SP has the advantage of being an independent program and not a plug-in which makes it less dependent on the machine's memory.
After a few tests, I managed to find a workflow that allows me to use it with current versions of Prepar3D (textures not PBR). That said, SP's vocation is to offer PBR textures and I think I can share my experience on this other way of approaching this subject.

Thanks for your post.

[gman5250]

Some of the posts above you were talking about a process using Quixel and Gimp, yet at the moment I don't think Quixel can work with The Gimp ... maybe in a while but not yet unless a solution already exists ?

After some unsuccessful attempts with Quixel (repeated crashes with 16 GB of RAM), I decided to explore another software of the same kind: Substance Painter (SP).

SP has the advantage of being an independent program and not a plug-in which makes it less dependent on the machine's memory.
After a few tests, I managed to find a workflow that allows me to use it with current versions of Prepar3D (textures not PBR). That said, SP's vocation is to offer PBR textures and I think I can share my experience on this other way of approaching this subject.

Thanks for your post.


As far as I know Quixel does not work in Gimp. I referenced Gimp as a software that can be used to prepare assets for Quixel. Those assets would be any bitmap that Quixel uses, along with the mesh to construct the model used. :encouragement:

[roger-wilco-66]

Quixel is a native Photoshop plugin which works heavily with xml scripting. I also had RAM related crashes with my 16GB RAM, but only when 3Do was running over a prolonged period of time and the texture maps were set on 4096 squared.

Lagaffe, it would be interesting to know about your experiences with Substance Painter! As an independent application it might have a better performance and be more efficient with RAM usage, as you stated. Did I understand that there is a workflow which allows exporting Directx type textures (diffuse + diffuse alpha, specular) ? Or, does it burn AO maps into the diffuse map? Does it support bump map painting?


Cheers,
Mark

[TuFun]

Curvature Options in Quixel 2

This cap also shows the normal mapping that is automatically generated when selecting a texture. The ability to move the mesh and light in three dimensions takes the guesswork out of bumps, spec, gloss, curvature and weathering, all of which are adjustable. Pretty trick.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1874/44543217761_86e84fdb99_o.jpg

You can say that again! Beautiful work there "G"!

[lagaffe]

Quixel is a native Photoshop plugin which works heavily with xml scripting. I also had RAM related crashes with my 16GB RAM, but only when 3Do was running over a prolonged period of time and the texture maps were set on 4096 squared.

Lagaffe, it would be interesting to know about your experiences with Substance Painter! As an independent application it might have a better performance and be more efficient with RAM usage, as you stated. Did I understand that there is a workflow which allows exporting Directx type textures (diffuse + diffuse alpha, specular) ? Or, does it burn AO maps into the diffuse map? Does it support bump map painting?

Cheers,
Mark

Yes, perfectly I succeeded in early 2018 in making a set of textures for Prepar3D or FSX with Substance Painter 2017.

Wanting to try my hand at creating planes for X-Plane, I followed Javier Rollon's Youtube channel dedicated to the creation of his SF-260 (exemple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjwy3_7vDyQ&list=UUozowg6xXJuz1FO3D42T2zg&index=55&t=20s). It was when he approached texture creation with SP that I became interested in this software.
After some research I actually found Quixel too and tried to do some tests with both software to see.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm more comfortable with SP and on the memory side it seems "lighter": it's a software in its own right and not a plug-in like Quixel, so it's more responsive and less subject to lags and blockages.

It was during my Menestrel HN700 project that I became interested in SP. After browsing the Internet and reading your work as well, I began to understand the interaction of the different textures between them and how we could still create a process to create FSX/P3D textures based on SP.

AO creations - interior - front gear - rear gear :
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63368&stc=1


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63370&stc=1


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63373&stc=1

After SP workflow - interior - front gear - rear gear :
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63369&stc=1


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63371&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63372&stc=1

These are not too complicated textures to make and I could have done them with just Gimp. There, it allowed me to test the process and get a result that I liked.

Since May 2018, I have put this project on hold to devote myself with Jean-Pierre Fillon (Quebec.org) to the realization of a large Quebec airport (near Montreal) that will soon be completed.
I would have to get this Menestrel HN700 back together to revive my memory and give you the elements that I have used to achieve theses textures.

In principle, the process is almost identical:
- creation of AOs in your modeling software
- duplication of the desired object (front wheel for example) then assignment via a multi-material of several basic colors to distinguish the different elements (brakes, tire, cylinder, valve, etc.):=> texture ID
- import into SP of the duplicated object (FBX or OBJ format, I prefer FBX)
- import of AO and ID texture
- selection of diverses elements via the color defined in the texture ID then application of the various layers

PS: This process is identical between the two software packages.

The main problem lies in the way we initialize the project in SP since according to the pattern used at the beginning we define a certain number of textures that will then be processed in the software and ultimately when exporting will correspond or not to the desired goal.
I took notes during my various essays and I have to gather them together to make a summary... in English (I'm French, sorry)

The two screenshots of my SP input and export settings are refused by my image host: Postimage ??? I don't understand why.
Anyway, I'll try to give you the main parameters:
- New project
Create a texture set per UDIM tile => unchecked
Normal map format : DirectX
Compute tangent space per fragment => unchecked
Document resolution .... as you want
- Export
Config: Document channels + Normal + AO (With Alpha)
Common padding : Dilatation + Default background color (dilatation 8 pixels)

Texture sets
DefaultMaterial_Diffuse
DefaultMaterial_Specular
DefaultMaterial_Glossiness
DefaultMaterial_Height
DefaultMaterial_Normal
DefaultMaterial_Emissive
DefaultMaterial_Normal_DirectX
DefaultMaterial_Mixed_AO

After that, I have tried to compose all theses textures to obtain the result as you seen before, using the Marks's advices about Quixel.

Best regards,
Didier.

[roger-wilco-66]

Thanks for taking your time for this write-up, Didier! Very interesting.

I'll see if I can get a try-before buy version of Substance Painter and give it a try so I can compare the results. Although, I must say, I wouldn't want to miss the bump mapping tool of Quixel, and the Megascan Mixer/Bridge feature.


Cheers,
Mark

[IanP]

I know a commercial developer (sim software developer, not add-on developer) from outside the flight simulation world whose team started developing PBR using Quixel and then moved to Substance because of instability and other issues with Quixel.

Substance is A LOT more capable and powerful than Quixel, but the price rises to match. I've used both and I'd much prefer to work with Substance - I just cannot justify hundreds of pounds spent on software that gives me no return.

Or, more precisely, Mrs. P would pointedly refuse any justification I came up with for spending hundreds of pounds on software for no return. :D

Ian P.
Edited to add: She nodded.

[TuFun]

Looking at the Substance licenses... WOW! Those prices!!! I will just invest in more DDR RAM on a new build next year.

[lagaffe]

Looking at the Substance licenses... WOW! Those prices!!! I will just invest in more DDR RAM on a new build next year.

Yes, it is but you can find this software on STEAM at a lower price. During November 2017 I find a very good PROMO and succeed to buy it for 70 € :santahat:

[lagaffe]

Looking at the Substance licenses... WOW! Those prices!!! I will just invest in more DDR RAM on a new build next year.

Yes, it is but you can find this software on STEAM at a lower price. During November 2017 I find a very good PROMO and succeed to buy it for 70 € :santahat:
So wait a little before ...

[lagaffe]

Looking at the Substance licenses... WOW! Those prices!!! I will just invest in more DDR RAM on a new build next year.

Yes, it is but you can find this software on STEAM at a lower price. During November 2017 I find a very good PROMO and succeed to buy it for 70 € :santahat:
So wait a little before ...

You can also buy a BUNDLE (very expensive) or only SP ... I choose the last solution.

[TuFun]

Ok, didn't know Steam offered Substance. Get one year updates, not bad. Thanks!
Currently its Substance Painter 2018 at $149.99 and good reviews.

[gman5250]

I really like the idea of a side by side comparison of Quixel and Substance Painter. Both represent a step towards PBR integration in Prepar3D and should be explored in depth.

[TuFun]

This looks very interesting with new features for Substance Painter 2018. Looking to pick this up when on Steam sale.

https://www.allegorithmic.com/blog/substance-painter-spring-has-come

[roger-wilco-66]

SB offers a 30 day trial, at the bottom of the page mentiond above. I think I'll grab it and run a comparison!


Cheers,
Mark

[IanP]

That's what I did, with both Substance Painter and Builder - They were both fantastic resources. I'd thoroughly recommend that anyone with even a passing interest in PBR and modelling use the trial periods to take a look.

Ian P.

[mjahn]

Have started on Quixel but find it little less than utterly nerve-wrecking, starting with the online activation, the loading of the program, the import of textures and meshes etc. Error messages crop up galore, all gobbledegook. You have to go to the online manual, which lists an impressive number of possible hitches. At one point they say, start Photoshop in admin mode, then shut down, then try again. (Why didn't I think of that for my uploaded models -- in case of trouble start FSX, then close it, repeat until it's working.) Haven't even got to baking anything. Let me see, where is that 'frustrated' smiley ...

[gman5250]

Have started on Quixel but find it little less than utterly nerve-wrecking, starting with the online activation, the loading of the program, the import of textures and meshes etc. Error messages crop up galore, all gobbledegook. You have to go to the online manual, which lists an impressive number of possible hitches. At one point they say, start Photoshop in admin mode, then shut down, then try again. (Why didn't I think of that for my uploaded models -- in case of trouble start FSX, then close it, repeat until it's working.) Haven't even got to baking anything. Let me see, where is that 'frustrated' smiley ...

Ouch!!!

Ok...show of hands...do we want to see an installation tutorial. Probably the best place to start is getting the software plugged in without having a psychotic break.
:dizzy:

I can put together a video that eases the pain.



IMPORTANT...IMPORTANT...HUGE...
Make sure that you're forcing 3DO2.exe to use your video card instead of integrated graphics - you can configure this through your Nvidia control panel. Bigger capacity cards make a world of difference in Quixel. Did I say huge??? Yep....

I'm in the process of booting back into my fully reborn, revitalized, clean, fresh...7TB of freshly formatted drives, squeaky clean Windows 10 OS and updated Prepar3Dv4.
First thing I installed, after the OS was Photoshop. Right after that Quixel, then a fresh install of 3D Studio Max, then Prepar3Dv4.

On the clean system, the Quixel install was not eventful. I ran the install and it booted Photoshop and went straight to work. I had been experiencing serious lags before, but on the clean boot it is lightning fast.

I'm rapidly coming back to life, so I will have some time to dedicate to an install video to get people up and running.
Also, I'm going to download the trial Substance Painter and do a side by side. I'll see what works best for me and stick with it. PBR is here to stay, so there is no time like the present.

[mjahn]

Thanks Gordon, I need somebody to hold my hand here. Even their Manual throws up an error on my setup (what, no pics?!).

Maybe go thru a very basic process step by step -- take a simple mesh, create obj file, bake AO and Material-ID files, let Ddo throw some textures on, tweak options (?), bake some FSX-usable DDSs, and test in sim. That sort of thing? I'll be eternally grateful.

[roger-wilco-66]

It is very efficient to use shortcuts in Quixel, excpecially in the 3Do painting mode, manipulating the brushes and things like that. Here's a list of all the Quixel shortcuts:


https://support.quixel.se/hc/en-us/article_attachments/203861839/Quixel_Shortkeys.pdf



Cheers,
Mark

[IanP]

Manfred: I found a series of tutorials on YouTube by Quixel themselves that helped me massively in getting to know the product and how it works. Like I said before, I'm no expert and some things I try work better than others, but for the most part I can get it to do what I want. I found them by searching YT for Quixel Ddo Tutorial.

Ian P.

[mjahn]

Thanks Ian, I am trying to work my way through them. I am a bit handicapped because Photoshop isn't really my favorite playground (it's Xara if you want to know). So that's two building sites I am working on. Anyway, I have got to the stage that I can slap a Quixel material on my mesh, but what to do to get it or something like it into FSX I haven't the faintest yet. I notice that Quixel saves out large numbers of PSD and tga files to the project folder. It also has an exporter function, which seems to do nothing. I am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction. Oh, even though I can save a project and the psd's, when I close Quixel I get a window saying "The suite has crashed and will now restart". I can't post that window full of error codes because it only stays on for a second or so. Needless to say, Quixel won't "restart" either, not that I want it to, having just closed it. I mean I am impressed with the visuals but helpwise I am disappointed. At uni we learned that your computer programs might well run into a fatal error, but if so you were supposed to make them "exit gracefully". Throwing an undecipherable error panel at you isn't exiting gracefully. I still want to learn the darn thing though.

[gman5250]

Thanks Ian, I am trying to work my way through them. I am a bit handicapped because Photoshop isn't really my favorite playground (it's Xara if you want to know). So that's two building sites I am working on. Anyway, I have got to the stage that I can slap a Quixel material on my mesh, but what to do to get it or something like it into FSX I haven't the faintest yet. I notice that Quixel saves out large numbers of PSD and tga files to the project folder. It also has an exporter function, which seems to do nothing. I am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction. Oh, even though I can save a project and the psd's, when I close Quixel I get a window saying "The suite has crashed and will now restart". I can't post that window full of error codes because it only stays on for a second or so. Needless to say, Quixel won't "restart" either, not that I want it to, having just closed it. I mean I am impressed with the visuals but helpwise I am disappointed. At uni we learned that your computer programs might well run into a fatal error, but if so you were supposed to make them "exit gracefully". Throwing an undecipherable error panel at you isn't exiting gracefully. I still want to learn the darn thing though.

I was getting the crash on exit, but this week I disk wiped 7TB of HD disk space and re-booted my system and storage drives on a squeaky clean OS following the DOD grade triple scrubbing. I notice that the Quixel crash has resolved itself. Not sure how to fix it without a disk wipe, but it is a transient anomaly.

To put you at ease, the textures you create in Quixel can be directly exported out as Prepar3D .dds using their exporter. The exporter will produce albedo (texture), normal, specular, gloss and ambient occlusion maps. Those can be taken directly into Gmax or 3D Studio materials editors and applied to the model exactly as you would for any other texture. The only new techniques to learn are related to the current P3D SDK, which allows for more and more PBR related materials to be applied to the model.

For Photoshop, you will need the NVIDIA Texture Tools for Photoshop. It's a direct point and click download and install. Once the tools are in Photoshop, the Quixel exporter will use the NVIDIA filters to create the texture sheets in the appropriate formats. The naming conventions are PBR related i.e Albedo, Normal etc, so those can be renamed i.e texture, bump, spec etc.

I just finished connecting all of the various code bits on my workstation, so at this point I can begin to put together some easy to understand tutorials. The Quixel tutorials certainly contain valuable information, but they are edited to be entertaining and sell product more than teach at a learning pace. I'll try to make mine logical, and address the basics of how to get a texture on a working aircraft skin or scenery object.

[mjahn]

Thanks, Gordon, didn't have the NVIDIA plug installed in my x64 Photoshop, it's there now.

Pic shows my current exporter options. What does the option _map refer to? Is "Unprocessed PBR" what one wants?

http://imghst.co/93/z!Zx4E74UZ.jpg

[roger-wilco-66]

There's a prepar3d export option, which saves the directx format that FSX / P3D uses.

You also can set that up in the project configuration right at the beginning in DDo, where you assign the mesh, and the base texture maps.

As for errors or crashes upon exit, I also had that lately. Since there were a few PS updates lately and no Quixel update, I suspect there might have been a PS update that causes it.
Anyways, the people at Quixel are quite responsive, so it might be a good thing to drop them a mail about the crash.

There's also a discord sever named "Quixel Suite / Megascans" where some of the Quixel devs hang out and questions are answered.



Cheers,
Mark

[mjahn]

I only get a .dds export option, nothing explitly targeting P3D.

One would prefer to do the DDS conversion oneself, wouldn't one, either via PS or Imagetool? Because, how would Quixel know how to handle any reflection alpha, mips etc? Also sometimes we want dxt1 ...

Just checked, the .dds the exporter produces is a non-flipped dxt1. That's basically useless for us.

Managed to capture that exit error code. Yes, it may be a good idea to let them know. Together with my other rants.

http://imghst.co/100/DpujR7yhlg.jpg

[gman5250]

I have used the NVIDIA Tools filter in Photoshop for a couple of years now. Once I have set up my preferences for normal maps and .dds export, the filter remembers those. When Quixel renders out through their exporter, the NVIDIA filter remembers those parameters. The Quixel exported texture sheets will retain those preferences.

I prefer to do the basic texture work early, then import those textures into my GMAX/3DStudio materials editors for further modeling. At this point you still have all of the SDK parameters available to tweak the model and texture sheets, or if you prefer to tweak in Arno's MCX for your post process parameters.

I tend to use Quixel for the broad strokes, i.e. basic texture, wear and bumps. Once I have those I go back in Photoshop, or whatever paint application you prefer and add the final highlights and hand touches. If you are using photoreal i.e. the elements in the C-47 VC, those can be layered in to the basic Quixel texture sheets and re-exported using your preferred method.


Setting up the file, choose Prepar3D here.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1869/30805523358_51130f87ce_o.gif


Export using the Prepar3D option.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/43766477165_5df8474ce2_o.gif

[roger-wilco-66]

The prepar3d export option is the 9th option in the list (in my version):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mfp3yja4qb6e7qm/quix-export.jpg?dl=1

[SkippyBing]

I've been using 'Unprocessed PBR' and then making the DDS files myself. I'm not 100% convinced the DDS export is that useful as at least when I was using it it gave separate spec and gloss maps which I had to merge. This will lead to a slight loss in quality as you're decompressing and recompressing the files to do it. I'm not sure this isn't something I'm doing wrong though!
Shot below is the Firefly cockpit I've textured using Quixel.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63504&stc=1

[mjahn]

Thanks all, found the P3D exporter option that you are showing, just didn't see it originally. Yes, probably best to earmark the project for p3d when setting it up.

Now the exporter creates flipped dxt5 dds's, I guess that could work. I think Skippy has a valid point though, better do the dds conversion from the original psd's.

Further on Skippy's note, are there any tips on how to integrate albedo, gloss, metalness, and normal? Albedo I think is diffuse; normal is probably BUMP (as is?); metalness = SPEC? Gloss = ?

[Mach3DS]

Thanks all, found the P3D exporter option that you are showing, just didn't see it originally. Yes, probably best to earmark the project for p3d when setting it up.

Now the exporter creates flipped dxt5 dds's, I guess that could work. I think Skippy has a valid point though, better do the dds conversion from the original psd's.

Further on Skippy's note, are there any tips on how to integrate albedo, gloss, metalness, and normal? Albedo I think is diffuse; normal is probably BUMP (as is?); metalness = SPEC? Gloss = ?

Albedo is equivilant to Diffuse.
Normal is Bump
Metalness, Reflection, and Specular are each their own RGB channel. in DCS The Roughness_Material file is used to house all 3.

The Red CHannal is the specular light highlights and shadows
The Green Channel is the Gloss/metalness, basically is the material a conductor or insulator material
The Blue Channel is the Reflective properties

Combining all 3 allows for the results seen:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4791/25852123257_b0da34b3d0_o.jpg

[gman5250]

I have the feeling that this is going to evolve into an extremely helpful thread.

Heads Up....Be Advised
I found that Quixel V2.3.2 (current) is blowing up in Photoshop CS6. It was breaking my export and Color ID functions. I backed out to V2.3.1 and it fixed itself, and the crash on shut down has not reared it's ugly head.
This is one of those areas where everyone's system is very different, so everyone will be affected differently. Keep this in mind as you move ahead with Quixel.

Manfred:
I'm going to put together an Exporting 101 video that will show how I take my Quixel base paints into my workflow. Let us know how and if the P3D export works for you. You can export out in .bmp format using the Exporter.

[gman5250]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4791/25852123257_b0da34b3d0_o.jpg


Rick, your work seriously blows me away!!!:encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Gordon. I wish I had more knowledge about the dev side. All my experience is from the painters side only. A couple other examples that show Paint vs. Metal surfaces. The paint is more of an "insulator" vs. metal which is a conductor. You can see the ability to generate amazing results. Both are my paints. Using the paint kits but I developed my own RGB Spec file from scratch. This is of course DCS and these two examples are not completely PBR yet. They use the materials but are not self reflective.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1866/44407363202_dc9ec4e3aa_o.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4706/25640266457_242e3227a2_o.jpg

[mjahn]

That's where we (P3d) need to go. I remember how difficult it was for me to get the hang of FSX materials, now it seems PBR is another quantum leap forward.

[TuFun]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4791/25852123257_b0da34b3d0_o.jpg

I agree with "G"... this is outstanding! You reminded me of "MightArrow" work with F-86 aircraft.

Profile: https://live.warthunder.com/user/MightyArrow/

[Mach3DS]

TuFun, wow! That guy is really Talented!!! That is an enormous amount of work! Thanks for sharing.

Here's a few more examples. I'm hoping that P3D will get here at minimum, and that I will be able to convert the F-100D to this standard!

Clean:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/903/27950056978_80505a103b_o.jpg

Vs. Airshow:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/904/27270783217_16bb91207e_o.jpg


And one that shows Clean Aluminum, Grey Paint, and Not quite Airshow polished:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4782/40666627071_f21eec9888_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

The biggest difference between PBR and the Current FSX/P3D way of painting is that the diffuse map which is called an Albedo map should contain NO shadows or highlights. So if you have AO (baked shadows) layers those would be merged into the RED channel of the Materials textures. The other major difference is that RGB color hue and brightness are also used to key lighting and shadow in the sim. There's a great tutorial for painters here:

WAR THUNDER SDK FOR PAINTERS


(http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=PBR_texture_compliance)

[kalong]

The biggest difference between PBR and the Current FSX/P3D way of painting is that the diffuse map which is called an Albedo map should contain NO shadows or highlights. So if you have AO (baked shadows) layers those would be merged into the RED channel of the Materials textures. The other major difference is that RGB color hue and brightness are also used to key lighting and shadow in the sim. There's a great tutorial for painters here:

WAR THUNDER SDK FOR PAINTERS


(http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=PBR_texture_compliance)
can you give a complete (short) list for converting PBR to FSX/P3D?
I want to try it. maybe on Osprey
many thanks

[gman5250]

Next video will cover...

My workflow for PBR basically begins with assigning the textures to the mesh components, just the same as traditional methods, but the base textures are applied to the mesh in Quixel. This creates the foundational artwork in minutes instead of hours of hand painting. The flexibility in Quixel for adjusting gloss, bump height/intensity, specular and diffuse detail is impressive.
(The four bottom layers shown)

This is a good place to export the flattened bitmap out for use in GMAX or 3D Studio.
or
Layer in the photoreal elements, in this case from my master Photoshop file for the F7F Tigercat.
(The ten upper layers)

The thing to bear in mind is each mesh set should only be created for a single UVW map. For instance, the panel shown here fills one full 4K texture sheet, so all of those elements are included in the mesh. Using this method, I can customize all of the various elements, in this case four, in one painting session. The flattened bitmaps will now be assigned in their corresponding slots in the materials editor i.e. diffuse, bump, spec etc. The base art can be enhanced either by hand painting in Quixel, for instance bump detailing which is absolute magic in 3D. The editing process is non destructive to the originals, so changes or errors can simply be erased and corrected.

The challenge for most devs will be to incorporate the 4D chess game into their normal work flow. Once you integrate the logic of the process, it all makes sense. When we inevitably go to full PBR support in P3Dv5 (rumored) we will be able to use the economy of the method that Rick is showing us in his PBR work.

Four basic Quixel layers and my detailed art layered in.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1890/44684771021_d9df946c1f_o.jpg


The first four layers only. Less than five minutes from blank gray to this.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1889/44684769461_b4055cf2ba_o.jpg

[roger-wilco-66]

Gordon, the way you described it is exactly what my workflow is in the moment.
As mentioned, for P3D/FSX, we need a post processing step that plugs the exported maps into the proper slots and define the proper material settings. Albedo becomes diffuse, AO is layered onto the diffuse via PS, specular stays, and so on. Now, the difficulty for me is that for the exported grey tones of the material textures, you need a proper combination of certain material parameters (there are many!) to make them work as intended. I tried to find a standard, or base line parameter set, to make it work. I must say that I have not succeeded with that yet. I always end up adjusting the maps themselves, which is a lot of work, at least for me.

These aircraft shots, expecially the F-86, look fantastic, Rick.

Cheers,
Mark

[Edit] : I contacted the Quixel team about that material settings issue. I'll report the results back here!

[mjahn]

How about creating a mini FS-related object, say a seat or an undercarriage assembly, with the obj file, the base flat ID, AO and normal textures (all 1024!!), a Quixel project properly set up, with one or two Quixel materials slapped on (nothing fancy), and notes on how to launder the resulting psd files into what can be put into FSX/P3D. A hands-on tutorial from A to Z, so to speak...

[gman5250]

How about creating a mini FS-related object, say a seat or an undercarriage assembly, with the obj file, the base flat ID, AO and normal textures (all 1024!!), a Quixel project properly set up, with one or two Quixel materials slapped on (nothing fancy), and notes on how to launder the resulting psd files into what can be put into FSX/P3D. A hands-on tutorial from A to Z, so to speak...

I'll put together a basic tricycle undercarriage and fuselage frame. I have something already that will fill that requirement. I'll do a short, mesh to sim video showing a real time work flow applying the textures, exporting for FSX/P3D, plugging the textures into the materials editor in 3D Studio and processing the .mdl out to the sim. That sound good to everyone?

[lagaffe]

Good idea ... I can make the same with SP2017.

PS: On the HN-700 project ,I have made my study on theses parts and the VC interior.

[gman5250]

Good idea ... I can make the same with SP2017.

PS: On the HN-700 project ,I have made my study on theses parts and the VC interior.


A side by side is an excellent idea. I'm really interested in SP as well. Also love Unigine...but that's a bit out of my price range. :encouragement:

[gman5250]

If we are going to do a side by side evaluation of Quixel and Substance Painter, I thought it would make sense to work with both. I downloaded the evaluation package and will begin working with that, as well as Quixel to get a good comparison. This is going to be interesting. :untroubled:

[Mach3DS]

I'll put together a basic tricycle undercarriage and fuselage frame. I have something already that will fill that requirement. I'll do a short, mesh to sim video showing a real time work flow applying the textures, exporting for FSX/P3D, plugging the textures into the materials editor in 3D Studio and processing the .mdl out to the sim. That sound good to everyone?

That would be awesome Gordon! I'm really interested in developing but very intimidated by the 3d modeling side....as I know.nothing....well I know very little... Dabbled in Blender and managed to export a blob into P3D....LOL.

[roger-wilco-66]

I'll put together a basic tricycle undercarriage and fuselage frame. I have something already that will fill that requirement. I'll do a short, mesh to sim video showing a real time work flow applying the textures, exporting for FSX/P3D, plugging the textures into the materials editor in 3D Studio and processing the .mdl out to the sim. That sound good to everyone?

That sounds great, Gordon! If I can help with anything, just holler. I'm busy with the VC 3D design of the C-7A in the moment, and sidestep into Quixel now and then to texture components. I also plan to wash the part that I'm working on (overhead console) through both Substance Painter and Quixel to be able to compare it.


Cheers,
Mark

[TuFun]

That would be awesome Gordon! I'm really interested in developing but very intimidated by the 3d modeling side....as I know.nothing....well I know very little... Dabbled in Blender and managed to export a blob into P3D....LOL.

I'm also very interested in Blender, especially when 2.8 gets released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh29-ZgOLxY

Witold Jaworski is a professional modeler and does very detailed aircraft models in Blender. I've been following his work on a SBD Dauntless. Although his models are to detail to be use in flight sims, but his methods from making scale plans and analyzing photos is amazing! He also has a how to book.

Look thru this his post and see what I mean.

http://www.military-meshes.com/forum/showthread.php?7296-SBD-Dauntless

[lagaffe]

I'm also very interested in Blender, especially when 2.8 gets released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh29-ZgOLxY

Witold Jaworski is a professional modeler and does very detailed aircraft models in Blender. I've been following his work on a SBD Dauntless. Although his models are to detail to be use in flight sims, but his methods from making scale plans and analyzing photos is amazing! He also has a how to book.

Look thru this his post and see what I mean.

http://www.military-meshes.com/forum/showthread.php?7296-SBD-Dauntless

Vitold publish also on Blenderartist.org and the story of this creation is described in details here: https://blenderartists.org/t/sbd-dauntless-us-navy-dive-bomber/641592/265

The best thing in my own opinion to test theses two softwares will be to use one only and same model.
Why not to use this model for the comparaison ? of course with the permission of Vitold.

This SBD Dauntless can be download here: https://blenderartists.org/t/sbd-dauntless-us-navy-dive-bomber/641592/242 - SBD-3-67.zip can be download to test and evaluation (page 242/265 Dec 2017).

[gman5250]

I think the Blender SBD model, while fabulous, would not be practical for a basic primer. The poly count and complexity would eliminate all but high end developer platforms.

I spent the last two days with Substance Painter and come away with a perspective that I think most here will agree with. Quixel is an intuitive point and click interface for doing surface rendering quickly and in a manner that the average painter can grasp. Substance Painter is a comprehensive environment that is suitable for a journeyman level approach to PBR. It seemed quite logical to me, but then again I have over twenty five years in Photoshop, so the concepts are familiar. I can see the clear advantages of working in SP, mainly because it is gives the designer a full spectrum approach to materials design and application.

For me, I can see that I require both Quixel and Substance Painter depending upon my needs. Right tool for the right job...so to speak.

For the basic Quixel mesh to sim tutorial that Manfred requested, I think a simple mesh that represents the basics used by most devs should be the approach. Mark already has some assets that we have tested on the B-26K very successfully. I have all of those assets, so I'll include those with your permission Mark. You can tweak some of the areas you want to address, depending on your available time.

That's it for now. My system is back up to full song, so I can put together the test mesh easily enough. Bear in mind that I also have a backlog that has been on hold for a few months after the computer went south. :biggrin-new:

[TuFun]

I think the Blender SBD model, while fabulous, would not be practical for a basic primer. The poly count and complexity would eliminate all but high end developer platforms.

Exactly, just showing how powerful Blender is for modeling. He only uses three free programs.

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/284363-sbd-dauntless-from-scratch/&do=findComment&comment=2893323

(http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/284363-sbd-dauntless-from-scratch/&do=findComment&comment=2893323)It's just fascinating to me to see this done in the virtual world by talented developers such as you and many others!


http://wjaworski.pl/blog/sbd/0077-10.jpg

[roger-wilco-66]

I've got a Quixel weekend coming up! I have to run the C-7A Caribou overhead console through the texturing process, and I'll take notes of the workflow I use. I'll post the results here when I'm done.


Cheers,
Mark

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1290ip05xm3mpn/overhead-console10.jpg?dl=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/22v617kbordp5im/overhead-console11.jpg?dl=1

[Mach3DS]

One thing I love about PBR, is the work flow... To get the equivalent P3D with metal showing through under the chipped paint would have been extremely labor intensive with the file structure of FSX/P3D.

This was 2 files in game and a 3rd PSD I use just to keep things separated in case I make a mistake I can't walk back! Lol. Obviously it's a little different just painting with the kit compared to the developer stuff. But even this is superior.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1868/30904705678_52fc3de551_o.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1846/30904705958_1920fd20e6_o.jpg

[TuFun]

Rick, that looks great with PBR! I hope P3Dv5 will have self reflections. PBR sure makes a difference as seen here.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ry5zG

[gman5250]

Update and what I feel is an important question.

I'm working on the 101 Mesh to Sim Tutorial that will show how to take mesh from Gmax/Studio into Quixel, and out to the sim. That will be ready this weekend.


Here's the question.

In light of the release of the NVIDIA RTX 2080 TI card, and the much touted raytracing capabilities, do we want to expand this conversation to raytracing/PBR and the future of flight sim?

I spent quite a bit of time down the rabbit hole, analyzing the 2080 and came to the realization that this card is the first step to integrating full raytracing rendering into simulated games and flight simulators. This is going to be an incremental process, but we will eventually be at a place where graphics and modeling as we know it are going to be completely re-written. The conversation about PBR cannot be conducted without moving into raytracing as well.


Your thoughts?

[hairyspin]

Get tutorial 101 out first, Gordon! You're in danger of burying that trying to cover all possible bases. The bleeding edge is still in the future and I'd like to know how 101 works now, since we can use that now.

[TuFun]

Here's an example that was posted today about Real-time Ray-tracing which will be used in the 3Dmark Dandia.

Amazing! Fingers crossed for P3Dv5!

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/3dmark-dandia-real-time-raytracing-video.html

[gman5250]

Get tutorial 101 out first, Gordon! You're in danger of burying that trying to cover all possible bases. The bleeding edge is still in the future and I'd like to know how 101 works now, since we can use that now.

Working on that as we speak Tom. The 101 will get everyone oriented in exporting the Quixel assets out to either FSX or Prepar3D. :encouragement:

[roger-wilco-66]

Great stuff, Gordon! I also think we should focus on the base workflow for the time being, expecially the process of bringing the Quixel maps back into the sim. That's crucial - how do I get all that glory properly into the sim.

The new capabilities of RT + PBR are fascinating though, and surely are worth a discussion, as are different render engines like Vulkan as an alternative to Directx.


Cheers (and thanks for your tutorial effort!),
Mark

[roger-wilco-66]

A quick washing of the console through Quixel spits out this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/906p1pbiillf62g/overhead-console-quixel-2.jpg?dl=1


I follow the route of assigning multi materials in 3dsmax to the elements of the mesh, and render a diffuse map. After exporting the mesh ( OBJ) I open the mesh in Quixel, together with the color coded diffuse map. In Quixel you can assign your desired materials to the respective colors. This requires some careful planning and analysis of your asset while you're still in the 3d design program.
You always can change materials later though if needed. There are other ways of doing that, even without multi material colors.
The rendered map for the specimen above looks like this (this not the original file):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9v4mi6svhmexfq/overhead-consoleDiffuseMap.jpg?dl=1

Cheers,
Mark

[roger-wilco-66]

And here's the console, washed in a quick run through Substance Painter. No wear and tear masks applied, and I used the standard materials. I also used the multi material map I rendered in 3dsmax, which is very helpful in assigning the same material to a group if elements.
On my system, Substance Painter is not faster than Quixel. It CTDd on me twice, but I have not applied the TDR fix (GPU hang recovery), so that might be the reason.

I don't really see any big difference at this point. In one way or the other you have to thoroughly learn how the layering system of the maps work, and have to have a good understanding of the UI. In Quixel you're quite good to go if you are already familiar with Photoshop, as it is a plugin.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dpacdvlafr9097/overhead-console-sub-paint-1.jpg?dl=1

[Mach3DS]

My personal preference is Quixel shot. Looks more realistic to my eye....or is it just the image from Substance painter? Great Work!!!

[Mach3DS]

Here's the MiG's PBR texture....just by comparison.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1960/44850551941_e1e1826a91_o.jpg

[Rotorhead135]

A quick washing of the console through Quixel spits out this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/906p1pbiillf62g/overhead-console-quixel-2.jpg?dl=1


I follow the route of assigning multi materials in 3dsmax to the elements of the mesh, and render a diffuse map. After exporting the mesh ( OBJ) I open the mesh in Quixel, together with the color coded diffuse map. In Quixel you can assign your desired materials to the respective colors. This requires some careful planning and analysis of your asset while you're still in the 3d design program.
You always can change materials later though if needed. There are other ways of doing that, even without multi material colors.
The rendered map for the specimen above looks like this (this not the original file):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9v4mi6svhmexfq/overhead-consoleDiffuseMap.jpg?dl=1

Cheers,
Mark


Hey Mark this looks fantastic nice job, I have some trouble with quixel at the moment.
How does it look into the P3D engine with the limitations of diffuse,bump and specular map?

regards
Julian

[gman5250]

This is the big one, the video that answers the big question.

How do I get Quixel PBR materials into FSX and Prepar3D???

Quixel Tutorial: Mesh to Simulator

This tutorial will show you a practical method to apply PBR materials to any object intended for use in FSX or Prepar3D.

The instruction covers mesh preparation for the Quixel workflow, texturing methods, tips and tricks, and most importantly how to export the finished art into a format that can be utilized by GMAX and 3D Studio or loaded directly in your flight simulator using traditional naming conventions.

I've narrated this video in a clear, step by step process taking you through the procedure from start to finish. I'll look forward to everyone's feedback on this.

Note:
All of the interior textures inside the WIP Abrams P-1 Explorer have been created with the Quixel work flow. At this stage there is no hand painting added, just the processed textures from the first rough applications in Quixel.

Also...my mic is a POS. lol
If I'm going to do more of this, I'll need to get a proper studio quality microphone. :-)


Video Link

https://www.real.video/5838913078001


https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1978/43063698580_9639517917_o.jpg

[TuFun]

Thanks "G" for taking the time to do this! Much appreciated!!! :encouragement:

[Sundog]

I think once this thread is finished, all of the "how to" posts and tutorials should be clipped and pasted at the top of the forum for a quick reference. Just my 2c.

[mjahn]

Great, thank you Gordon. Plenty of food for thought. Curious little plane, and nice circuit at the end.

[roger-wilco-66]

Great piece (again!), Gordon! I second the comment that this thread should be a reference sticky later, maybe in the dev forum.

The only thing that can be cumbersome is lightening the spec alpha to a proper value, and most of all, the material settings that should go along with the diff alpha and spec / spec alpha.

Did I miss it, or didn't you make use of the AO map?

If you want to make another video, it would be great to see one with painting and texture manipulation. From my own learning experience, it's not so easy for beginners to figure out for example

- paint in a new and clean layer, overlaying a standard material map, and where to place that in the layer stack
- paint a mask in 3do painter, adding scratches / discolorations / etc
- how to paint opaque paints on metallic surfaces (that can be a major headache to figure out because of the gloss / spec layers). That's an important one -- to know that you have to simultanously think in 3 layer dimensions (albedo, gloss, specular) or even 4 if you include the bump layer, in all the paint work on does there.

What can be a bit frustrating for beginners or even for a bit more advanced users is that Quixel DDo / 3Do is quite unforgiving when it comes to mistakes or erranous mouse clicks. One can mess things up royally and almost non recoverable. So it really pays to go through tutorials like Gordons and have a good understanding of the UI and the workflows that are needed to achieve something. Ndo is a fantastic tool, but even more of a challenge in that regard, in my opinion. Ask me, I ruined a days bump mapping work yesterday by clicking on a wrong spot.

Cheers, and thanks for your work, Gordon!
Mark

Edit:
@ Julian : Gordon's video explains it :-)

basically it's

albedo --> diffuse
specular --> specular (+a lightened version of that map in the alpha channel)
gloss --> moves into the diffuse alpha channel

[gman5250]

I'm glad the tutorial idea is being received well. Thank you all.

Mark,
I did use the traditional AO overlay technique for the model as filmed and, as you pointed out, blending diffuse, diffuse/alphas, bump/alphas, spec/alphas etc. is still a bit of alchemy that is dependent on the parameters actually built in to any given model. If a developer has control over the model, he can estimate those rather mysterious layers of light and color based upon the model itself.

I think it is important to point out at this point that Quixel and/or Substance Painter are designed to create PBR materials that can be rendered using conventional engines i.e. Unreal or others used for PBR based simulations like DCS World. When we talk about FSX and Prepar3D, we are using Quixel as an enhanced painting tool. The materials we generate in Quixel must then be reverse engineered back into FSX/P3D by converting the PBR texture sheets into more traditional textures recognized by FSX and P3D engines. That's fine for now, and I think Quixel is a great tool.

We are rapidly approaching a threshold where PBR texturing, as illustrated by Rick's pure PBR work, will be the new normal. As we cross that threshold, the old paradigm will remain in simulations like FSX and current iterations of Prepar3D. Assuming that LM will launch a PBR capable engine in the near future, developers and serious enthusiasts will need to understand the new methods and techniques we are exploring here, thus this series of tutorials.

The release of the new NVIDIA RTX 2080 TI emphasizes the sea change in graphics rendering which focuses on Ray Tracing and Global Illumination technology, rather than baked in light/shadow rendering as we previously understood it. This introduces the need to incorporate additional tools, for instance VRay, into our workflow. The evolution of the process has reached a pivotal point that, on one hand expands the creative envelope...but that comes at a price. The learning curve is going to be steep. :running:

Anyone who wishes to reallllyyyy get their mind blown should go watch some of the Unigine tutorials where entire landscapes are applied...with a brush. Boggles the mind.....

[roger-wilco-66]

I think these new technologies which are on the verge have the potential to make texturing actually much easier. We don't need any trickery anymore, like AO maps, night masks, baked in light sources, and hopefully not myriads of parameters to adapt for the different materials. And there will be applications like Quixel or SP which help to provide and use all these nice and realistic materials, all of which we can use even today.

Cheers,
Mark

[gman5250]

I think these new technologies which are on the verge have the potential to make texturing actually much easier. We don't need any trickery anymore, like AO maps, night masks, baked in light sources, and hopefully not myriads of parameters to adapt for the different materials. And there will be applications like Quixel or SP that help to provide and use all these nice and realistic materials, all of which we can use even today.

Cheers,
Mark


Precisely!!!!! :encouragement::encouragement:

It involves a learning curve, but the payoff is a fluid workflow and a logical approach to using light and shadow...no more alchemy.

[pilto von pilto]

First let me say that this is interesting to see how others go about texturing.

I had a long post on the possible pitfalls of PBR and the communities reactions to it and the changes required, but I then realised that ******** probably will address them.

Are you thinking of making a tutorial on how you would make a psd based paintkit from the quixel/substance workflow ? I look at the screenshot that you posted and the layers stack would be murder for some of the repainters that contact our helpdesk.

[gman5250]

First let me say that this is interesting to see how others go about texturing.

I had a long post on the possible pitfalls of PBR and the communities reactions to it and the changes required, but I then realised that ******** probably will address them.

Are you thinking of making a tutorial on how you would make a psd based paintkit from the quixel/substance workflow ? I look at the screenshot that you posted and the layers stack would be murder for some of the repainters that contact our helpdesk.

That layer stack can be pretty intimidating, even worse if the mesh is composed of multiple mesh layers. Good thing is that the UI actually does all of the complex tasks. The user is free to push buttons and use paint brushes.

The idea of a PBR paint kit is fascinating, but it raises a number of issues. Primarily, the developer would be required to provide a mapped mesh and the support files i.e Materials Id, Normal and Ambient Occlusion. The idea of providing the mesh, even if it is a bare hulk, is prohibitive for obvious reasons. The work represented in the mesh is a significant investment and most would be reticent to pop that into a PK.

One solution that comes to mind would be to host the PK mesh and mapping assets on your server and require a sign in process with EULA. The assets could be accessed on the hosting server by the end user for use Quixel or SP. I did something very similar to that with my graphics company and GM back in early 2000. The assets were on my server and the end user gained access through a web page. Simple enough.

Outside of that, the painting process itself would benefit. If a basic external model i.e. fuselage, wings, h-stab, v-stab and control surfaces are brought into Quixel, the more difficult challenges are addressed. For instance, if painting a camo pattern the painter can intersect fuselage, wing, nacelles and other elements seamlessly...painting around the model much the same as one would paint a real world model. Those confusing intersections on a UVW map are dealt with in the 3D painting modality.

I could put together a video of an external paint on a basic mesh that could illustrate the external paint process. The complex layering is handled by Quixel...I just sling the brushes and export the flattened textures to the flying model. :encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

That layer stack can be pretty intimidating, even worse if the mesh is composed of multiple mesh layers. Good thing is that the UI actually does all of the complex tasks. The user is free to push buttons and use paint brushes.

The idea of a PBR paint kit is fascinating, but it raises a number of issues. Primarily, the developer would be required to provide a mapped mesh and the support files i.e Materials Id, Normal and Ambient Occlusion. The idea of providing the mesh, even if it is a bare hulk, is prohibitive for obvious reasons. The work represented in the mesh is a significant investment and most would be reticent to pop that into a PK.

One solution that comes to mind would be to host the PK mesh and mapping assets on your server and require a sign in process with EULA. The assets could be accessed on the hosting server by the end user for use Quixel or SP. I did something very similar to that with my graphics company and GM back in early 2000. The assets were on my server and the end user gained access through a web page. Simple enough.

Outside of that, the painting process itself would benefit. If a basic external model i.e. fuselage, wings, h-stab, v-stab and control surfaces are brought into Quixel, the more difficult challenges are addressed. For instance, if painting a camo pattern the painter can intersect fuselage, wing, nacelles and other elements seamlessly...painting around the model much the same as one would paint a real world model. Those confusing intersections on a UVW map are dealt with in the 3D painting modality.

I could put together a visual of an external paint and that would benefit developers greatly, but the concept of providing a Quixel or SP ready PK presents some challenges. IMO.

Fun to think about though.

Working in DCS for over a year now, the paint kits that are provided are basically identical to those found in P3D. The only difference is in the the material file (which THEY DO NOT Provide a kit for -- I've made my own from the single flattened RGB file(s) that ship with the products). basically, the way it works in DCS, is that The Color *AND* brightness of the Albedo(Diffuse) map contribute to the material itself. The RGB Material file with either a *.SPEC or *.RoughMet provide the lighting controls; such that you could create a panel that looked like leather on the aircraft skin, OR you could make the same panel look like aluminum. The end result is dependent on how you setup both the Albedo AND the SPEC file with respect to color and brightness and the associated highlight/shadow, Glossiness/metalness, and reflection channels of the RGB channels. This allows the surface to look like shiny aluminum or matted paint or Glossy Paint. The Kits are layered PSD files as you would normally work in. My guess is that PBR could be implemented in some different ways. Ultimately, The textures themselves have the power to control the material per pixel. At least from my experience.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1923/29961605677_72387c84ff_o.png

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1873/44162071662_467795ddb0_o.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/976/28311291518_cabf7f09a7_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

You can see the metal is painted, and the F-16C esque- have glass scheme on the Mirage. Each a little different.

[gman5250]

You can see the metal is painted, and the F-16C esque- have glass scheme on the Mirage. Each a little different.

You are the go to guy when it comes to pure PBR paint kits Rick. :very_drunk:

BTW...I installed the evaluation copy of Vray for 3D Studio Max this morning. HOLY COW!!!
When we go full PBR with full ray tracing capable GPUs all of this is going to be well worth the learning curve.

[Mach3DS]

Oh I finally get what you're saying Gordon! Lol...a little slow today! Yes, in order to paint in Quixel you'd need the model to be pre export. The solution that DCS had come up with so far it's to have a proprietary model file extension...and a model viewer. Kind of like MCX. Allowed you to see the model and paint without loading the sim. However this doesn't solve the issue if painting directly in Quixel with the advantages of using the application for what it was designed! Your idea of login is non-invasive and would work well for both parties.

[hairyspin]

Thank you Gordon, much appreciated! :encouragement: (still watching your 101)

[kalong]

Working in DCS for over a year now, the paint kits that are provided are basically identical to those found in P3D. The only difference is in the the material file (which THEY DO NOT Provide a kit for -- I've made my own from the single flattened RGB file(s) that ship with the products). basically, the way it works in DCS, is that The Color *AND* brightness of the Albedo(Diffuse) map contribute to the material itself. The RGB Material file with either a *.SPEC or *.RoughMet provide the lighting controls; such that you could create a panel that looked like leather on the aircraft skin, OR you could make the same panel look like aluminum. The end result is dependent on how you setup both the Albedo AND the SPEC file with respect to color and brightness and the associated highlight/shadow, Glossiness/metalness, and reflection channels of the RGB channels. This allows the surface to look like shiny aluminum or matted paint or Glossy Paint. The Kits are layered PSD files as you would normally work in. My guess is that PBR could be implemented in some different ways. Ultimately, The textures themselves have the power to control the material per pixel. At least from my experience.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1923/29961605677_72387c84ff_o.png

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1873/44162071662_467795ddb0_o.png

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/976/28311291518_cabf7f09a7_o.jpg

I really AMAZE with DCS work. and I still waiting and "hope" P3D can use and maximize this PBR stuff.
my internal texture of MV-22B Osprey v2.0 was create using Quixel.
I ever try substance painter, but learning curve is too steep for me. then
somebody told me in fsdeveloper.com (sorry I forgot who is he) that there a equal painting software, it was Quixel, and I made a try for it. it lot easier for me as I starter as editing image from Photoshop.
both painting software has plus and minus each other. it depend on your own skill that suit with your own style, the result is similar.
in my old system (laptop) I got around 5 Gb of ram used by Quixel and similar when used Substance painter. in substance painter, it feel more lighter when work with it.

in Sim I only used texture: albedo (blend with AO), norm (for bump), specular (blend with AO). glosiness aren't use just yet.

if someone can give a list of work flow how to maximize PBR in present FSX/P3D I would be very appreciate and very happy to try it.
I could make a try and error for it, but I don't have much time to spend at the moment. I stay watching this thread for new experience with PBR

[gman5250]

BTW..

The more I learn about this airplane, the more fascinating the story becomes. The designer was way ahead of his time and only overshadowed by the war. It's especially interesting to observe many of the innovations he included in his design/fabrication that made their way into wartime and post war aircraft. It was actually quite a hotrod, and the proposed pressurized variant would have been "all that".

If it is OK with everyone, I'll continue to use it as the subject matter for upcoming tutorials. :encouragement:


https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1922/44870132662_557046c008_o.jpg

[pilto von pilto]

The paintkit is one of the issues I can see. Whilst the login is a nice idea it would be cost prohibitive in time , management and fiscallly. I think PBR texture based repaints will require more time than it takes now. Tweaking each aspect of the texture will become a requirement rather than an option. Which will in turn , turn off the " I just want to open PSP and slide in a different serial ".

Or ( and flame retardent suit is well and truly on ! )

Perhaps developers start charging for paintkits? Knockdown paintkit version of the model for use in quixel/mari/substance but not much else + raw layered PBR based files.

A bit like special editions of videogames right now. Not every purchaser requires a paintkit. For the ones that want it they buy the special edition with extras and the others that dont want/require paintkit can buy the standard edition. This would also keep the prices down on the standard editions. I'm not sure it will happen but if it was priced keenly enough, who knows.

Or
Charge for the "Super Paintkit deluxe " that has the knockdown model+ layered files and provide the standard current generation paintkit freely. The standard paintkit would actually provide for the " I just want to tweak one thing" where as the repainters who like to repaint or start afresh also have an option.

To fend off the " evil megacorp developers always after my cash " comments... a paintkit that could be used in one of the previously mentioned products is the source code. That should be paid for.

[Mach3DS]

There are already plenty of paint kits that exist for other sims and other games that are PBR, which function exactly like the way things work now for FSX/P3D. There's no issues whatsoever with creating a paint kit for PBR, even if you changed nothing and just released a layered PSD as is done now with majority that are out there. If you want to use the 3D painting techniques, that another story altogether. But that is NOT required for PBR paint kits for the masses. I wouldn't expect it either from any dev. The Quixel route is really for the developer, not really the end user. DCS, War Thunder, X-Plane all have standard paint kits -- there's no real reason that a standard paint kit which already exists for FSX couldn't be used for ALL platforms. In fact I used the FSX Mirage 2000C paint kit for all my DCS Mirage paints.

EDIT: Actually there is one thing, that would need to be taken into consideration, but it easily solved. AO. You'd need to make sure you can turn it OFF in a layer in the kit and that it's not painted directly into the Albedo(diffuse). This way it can be used in the RED channel of the associated no spec file for shadows.

The Only thing not the same is the "Spec" file which controls the PBR materials (for example in DCS). Those files are released with each stock paint by the developers, but they do not release a paint kit for those files. If users want to edit those, they must do so themselves. Which is what I have done. Either way, there shouldn't be any problems associated with reapints for PBR platforms. Unless you want to provide end users with the developer level 3D-model for use in Quixel (which is not required for repaints), then essentially nothing has changed...other than your personal work flow. WHich as shown by Gordon here is significantly reduced using these new tools (at least it looks that way from what I've been reading)...But I don't think there's any expectation that you devs would need to provide a 3D painting model or something....I certainly have no expectation for it.

[roger-wilco-66]

Making a paint kit out of the Quixel layer stack is not so difficult. If you collapse the proper part of the layer stack you get a single psd for each map. Depending on what you merge, you can even collapse it in a way so a set of sub layers stay intact, without the masking layers for instance.

The question is what purpose the paint kit should serve - repainting in Quixel, for example, or the classical way. And what type of paint kit, e.g. a flat diffuse base with burned repaint layers or whatever.

I'm sure there's a way to make that for any type. Producing a good paint kit is always a considerable chunk of work, whichever way one goes.


Cheers,
Mark

[Mach3DS]

Making a paint kit out of the Quixel layer stack is not so difficult. If you collapse the proper part of the layer stack you get a single psd for each map. Depending on what you merge, you can even collapse it in a way so a set of sub layers stay intact, without the masking layers for instance.

The question is what purpose the paint kit should serve - repainting in Quixel, for example, or the classical way. And what type of paint kit, e.g. a flat diffuse base with burned repaint layers or whatever.

I'm sure there's a way to make that for any type. Producing a good paint kit is always a considerable chunk of work, whichever way one goes.


Cheers,
Mark

Good point, I have NO IDEA how to create one from Quixel! But as far as what kind of repaint kit...I really don't think that providing a 3D model for use in Quixel is required. All of the pain kits I've seen are for use in the classic method. Unless there's some way of importing the .mdl into Quixel then I don't think we'll have a clean solution to this question.

[gman5250]

Bearing in mind that Ray Tracing will now be increasingly relevant to any conversation about development, as it pertains to third party paint kits. At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, the business and technical decisions relating to providing state-of-the-art products will be subject to the variables associated to delivery systems i.e. GPU, CPU and simulator platforms.

Example: The multiple iterations of Prepar3D, and the seemingly endless updates required to keep product current can be burdensome...to put it mildly. As the environment evolves, each developer will need to determine exactly where they want to be in the process.

It is also noteworthy that many "skinners" will not have access to the software and plugins required to work at the levels we are covering in this forum. For example, I just installed the VRay plugin for 3DS Max for a thirty day evaluation, after which an additional $1,180 USD would be required to work with a plug in to a $3,600 program. Developers can amortize these expenses, but "skinners" are increasingly looking at levels of sophistication that price them out of their hobby.

[Priller]

VRay plugin for 3DS Max for a thirty day evaluation, after which an additional $1,180 USD would be required to work with a plug in to a $3,600 program. Developers can amortize these expenses, but "skinners" are increasingly looking at levels of sophistication that price them out of their hobby.

Quite, those are not "hobby" prices anymore... Just my two cents worth...

Priller

[roger-wilco-66]

Good point, I have NO IDEA how to create one from Quixel! But as far as what kind of repaint kit...I really don't think that providing a 3D model for use in Quixel is required. All of the pain kits I've seen are for use in the classic method. Unless there's some way of importing the .mdl into Quixel then I don't think we'll have a clean solution to this question.

Painting in 3d is not very practical in many cases anyhow, in my opinion. I just worked in NDo creating a bump map for a while and had problems with curved surfaces and geometry close to the brush, or above the spot (screws on panels) where I wanted to paint. So I marked the desired spots in 3d in the right locations and did the detailing on the flat map, erasing the marks again. What is nice though is that you can check the results more or less in real time on the 3d model, that saves quite some time going back and forth between applications or reloading textures.


Cheers,
Mark

[TuFun]

Quite, those are not "hobby" prices anymore... Just my two cents worth...

Priller

Blender maybe an option since V-Ray plugin is $350.

https://www.chaosgroup.com/vray/blender

[Mach3DS]

Painting in 3d is not very practical in many cases anyhow, in my opinion. I just worked in NDo creating a bump map for a while and had problems with curved surfaces and geometry close to the brush, or above the spot (screws on panels) where I wanted to paint. So I marked the desired spots in 3d in the right locations and did the detailing on the flat map, erasing the marks again. What is nice though is that you can check the results more or less in real time on the 3d model, that saves quite some time going back and forth between applications or reloading textures.


Cheers,
Mark

Righto! Sounds like it would save a LOT of time doing things like panel lines and rivet/fasteners, and work leading up to the bump map. Most "repainters/skinners" don't actually edit these. And this is what I've found with the DCS crowd as well. Most repainters don't even bother with the PBR files at all. They keep the stock ones and don't mess with anything else. There's A LOT of talented artists over there as well. I am actually blown away by the volume of repainters in that community. But, even so, must don't edit the spec files. Which is where the fine details are done, and what elevates certain repaints above the rest IMHO. Not all repaints will require editing the PBR files either. So in many many cases, repaints will be MUCH easier with better looking results for most users.

[pilto von pilto]

My pay-ntkit ( tm :) ) idea was basically a way where the login method could work without a large cost to the developer that would have been pushed on to the normal/standard consumer. So normal paintkits are the way to go. That's good cos I really dont see devs being happy in sending out source code.

Ok ******** more video's please :biggrin-new:

[Mach3DS]

This is what I'm hoping will happen to P3Dv4+ (Heatblur F-14B on final) -- These guys have done it right :)


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1577/6397/products/Ext_04_9ed79b33-cc26-4c17-8fbc-9bf191b788be_2048x2048.jpg?v=1538937252

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1577/6397/products/Pit_04_fee9bcac-3c93-47df-9028-49160e033ad3_2048x2048.jpg?v=1538937252

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1577/6397/products/Screen_181004_204524_b1b1392a-5724-40dd-9845-a6d414a1bafb_2048x2048.png?v=1538937252

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1577/6397/products/Pit_05_bf8666d2-d84d-4c13-a2b1-bd9960e1e567_2048x2048.jpg?v=1538937252

[TuFun]

^ That is real as it gets! Artwork is breathtaking!!! Lighting is very realistic and natural, not cartoony.

[Mach3DS]

Yes, in my opinion, this is likely the most advanced flight Sim module ever developed for any platform at any time, available for PC. I've been following with keen interest, and listening to every interview and reading everything they have officially published regarding it's development. Based on years of Flight simming and RL experienced and education, that is the conclusion I've come to. The art work, sound, music, marketing are nothing less than Tony Stark worthy effort. I have NO connection to them other than I'm a fan. I don't own any of their previous products. But my gut, and my brain are confirming to me that this is going to be big.

[Mach3DS]

https://youtu.be/fID1sE2xfwU

[SH427]

Yes, in my opinion, this is likely the most advanced flight Sim module ever developed for any platform at any time, available for PC. I've been following with keen interest, and listening to every interview and reading everything they have officially published regarding it's development. Based on years of Flight simming and RL experienced and education, that is the conclusion I've come to. The art work, sound, music, marketing are nothing less than Tony Stark worthy effort. I have NO connection to them other than I'm a fan. I don't own any of their previous products. But my gut, and my brain are confirming to me that this is going to be big.

Having flown their Viggen and the Mig-21, the F-14 promises to be a milestone. Heatblur products are the yardstick upon which all others will be judged, personally.

[Flyboy208]

Best in game rendering of a GENTEX HGU-33 helmet that I have ever seen. Wow ! Mike :applause:

[Bjoern]

Anybody up for a bit of a challenge?

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/mv-is-looking-for.443913/

[TuFun]

They do have a lot of models in Flyinside Flight Simulator. Is FFS capable of PBR?

[Rotorhead135]

With the release of Prepar3d V4.4 we could start making PBR materials without compromise.