Messerschmitts! nah they're not they're 'einkels...

[bazzar]

Work in progress renders of the HE111 -P2 cockpit. This is not the first Heinkel we've done. Back in the days of CFS3 we built a Battle of Britain package for Just Flight which included an HE111. Things have changed a bit since then!

[YoYo]

I was thinking that it will be German plane also but didnt have any good idea. Great! :wavey:

[stiz]

don't you guys EVER sleep!! :dizzy::applause:

[bazzar]

Sleep? not acquainted with the word....:engel016:

[mrogers]

Amazing detail! Are the details the same as the real thing, like the opened window with these holes along the sides?

[Pips]

Life just gets better and better! :very_drunk:

[bazzar]

Amazing detail! Are the details the same as the real thing, like the opened window with these holes along the sides?

Yes they are. We have most of the available handbooks, detail guides and factory drawings to work from and then t here's the hours spent watching official film recordings. There's quite a bit of original factory stuff available which gives a fascinating insight into the construction processes. These were very advanced, complex and well-built aeroplanes.

[greenie]

You guys are on fire ! :)

[txnetcop]

Keep 'em comin' LOVE IT!:jump:
Ted

[Cirrus N210MS]

Yes they are. We have most of the available handbooks, detail guides and factory drawings to work from and then t here's the hours spent watching official film recordings. There's quite a bit of original factory stuff available which gives a fascinating insight into the construction processes. These were very advanced, complex and well-built aeroplanes.

looks amazing

[YoYo]

Bazz, what about the tail? Do You have idea?
Leave it blank or with historical markings (what I prefer personally) or do both version for different markets?

[Yossarian1943]

Oh my good...always wanted a decent He 111 since years and years. Hurry up! Want it next Friday latest!:redfire:

[bazzar]

Bazz, what about the tail? Do You have idea?
Leave it blank or with historical markings (what I prefer personally) or do both version for different markets?

We'll offer a choice. One with historically accurate and the other along the lines of what IL2 do with their axis aircraft.:engel016:

[YoYo]

We'll offer a choice. One with historically accurate and the other along the lines of what IL2 do with their axis aircraft.:engel016:

Very good choice!
btw.nice models of He-111 are in IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Kuban and very good is in IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (clickable). Now its the fime for FSX/P3D:applause:.

[IanP]

/me adds yet another airfield to The List and yet another aircraft to The List Of Aircraft He Can't Afford To Get. :engel016:

(Lille Nord was already planned for He111s - now I just have to actually pull my finger out and put something on the ground in the sim...)

Ian P.

[YoYo]

/me adds yet another airfield to The List and yet another aircraft to The List Of Aircraft He Can't Afford To Get. :engel016:

(Lille Nord was already planned for He111s - now I just have to actually pull my finger out and put something on the ground in the sim...)

Ian P.

Thx Ian!!! Great news also!
Id like to have few airfields from "the dark side of the Moon" ;) means Germans from WWII :wiggle:.
Must change only my ORBX Garman South and North from Wind farms to Wind mills :biggrin-new: .

[jankees]

looks very good!

[Cirrus N210MS]

i have been doing IL-2 BOS and BOM for a long time i enjoy flying the HE111 its a great plane to fly Glad to see it coming to Flightsim :wavey:

[wombat666]

Sleep? not acquainted with the word....:engel016:

It's greatly over rated especially as one gets older.
:encouragement:

[bazzar]

In doing the research for this project we have learned a lot about the technologies that went into these aeroplanes. The German crews must have been very proud of their machines. The quality of workmanship and the technology in the fixtures and fittings is outstanding. She's ready for the paintshop so here are some renders of the exterior to date.

[Flyboy208]

That looks amazing Bazz ! Mike :applause:

[ColoKent]

OMG...wonderful.

Kent

[eddie]

Weren't the top turrets enclosed by the time they got to the P2 versions of the 111 Baz?

[bazzar]

No, not on the P. By the mid H series, around the H4, they were trying different retractable rear covers and from the H10 on they had fixed rear facing windscreens with a port for the gun. the late H20s on had a "proper" rotating turret with a much bigger MG131 machine gun. Of course, just to confuse further, many examples were upgraded in the field or returned to the factories for modification. The gondola came in for quite a bit of variation too.:engel016:

[bazzar]

BTW, although alphabetically, P falls later than H, with the Heinkel, the P series was earlier than the H series. Confusing.:engel016:

[speedy70]

Hi Bazzar,
Surely the Lancaster must be ready for release by now.Do you have any idea of the release date.
Cheers chris

[bazzar]

Lancaster will be released when testing is complete.:engel016:

[eddie]

BTW, although alphabetically, P falls later than H, with the Heinkel, the P series was earlier than the H series. Confusing.:engel016:

I guess so,lol

[warchild]

I just ran across this video and thought you folks might be interested, especially regarding the off center nose.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd9Ocmg0tw

[Sascha66]

Amazing modelling! Maybe I should get P3D?

[Sascha66]

I just ran across this video and thought you folks might be interested, especially regarding the off center nose.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd9Ocmg0tw

Very interesting, I never knew that!

[warchild]

Very interesting, I never knew that!

yeahh. Me neither. it was quite the eye opener.

[bazzar]

The CASA 111 is based on the late H series and is significantly different to the original Heinkels. For example, there is only one control column in the Heinkel, which swings over to the engineer's position, a folding seat being used for the "co-pilot". Even then, there were no rudder pedals or throttle controls so any "co-pilot" duties would have been restricted to keeping the bomber level.

The CASA (or at least the example in the video) also lacks the top hatch and aero screen. This was used together with the seat riser to get the pilot's head above the fuselage roof for forward vision in takeoff and landing and in the event of anything obscuring forward view. The whole seat mechanism, pedals etc. are lifted up by pulling on a handle. Forward of the hatch is a folding aero screen which deflects airflow away from the pilot's head. In the cockpit, the pilot had several special devices attached to the cockpit framing for lining up in turns and acquainting themselves with the centre line of the aeroplane. I guess the wire strop in the video may be particular to the Spanish-built CASA.

I would disagree that the Heinkel was a "primitive" aircraft. Far from it. In its day, it was very much the latest in traditional German quality technology. Beautifully designed and built with the very best materials. What the Spanish built under license may well be very different of course!

[huub vink]

Bazz you took quite a challenge, when you decided to do the P version. I went trough all I have about the He.111 and found some shots from the cockpit from the very early versions (A-G versions). There are several quite confusing pictures from the cockpit from the different H versions, but I couldn't find a single photograph from the cockpit of the P2 version.

But there is always good news as well. There is a fully restored He 111 P-2 (Wknr. 1526, Stkz 5J+CN) in the Norwegian Armed Forces Aircraft Collection. I'm afraid its the only Heinkel He.111 P which still exists, so I couldn't find anything closer for you.

Cheers,
Huub

[bazzar]

Actually Huub, there are quite a few excellent reference books available on the P series. We have most of them and also some awesome original German manuals and documents, even the build notes and diagrams from the factory. The Norwegian P2 is an excellent source of reference but is missing a few items. There are a couple of videos taken from original German movies of the Heinkel factory, designing and manufacturing the HE111 a valuable offer from one of our beta test friends who had a great friend (90+) who flew them. Although no longer with us he did leave much detailed info and pics etc. So, not as difficult as you may think!:engel016:

[huub vink]

That's good to hear Bazz. I already thought you should have quite some information, otherwise you most likely wouldn't even have started a project like this.

But never expect a smooth ride. I'm convinced surprises will pop-up somewhere. Production models which are slightly different from prototypes, pictures which include field modifications, wrongly tagged pictures, etc. :banghead:

And thank you for doing this very interesting model. :encouragement:

Cheers,
Huub

[YoYo]

We'll offer a choice. One with historically accurate and the other along the lines of what IL2 do with their axis aircraft.:engel016:

Bazz, see this:

https://www.game.de/en/blog/2018/08/09/german-authorities-allow-inclusion-of-symbols-of-unconstitutional-organisations-in-games/

[bazzar]

Yes we did see this. We will still provide the option though for those who prefer an alternative.:engel016:

[Alan_A]

Yes we did see this. We will still provide the option though for those who prefer an alternative.:engel016:

I'm in favor of historical accuracy but it's good of you to offer the option.

If I might make an additional request - is it possible to include a paint or two of a captured aircraft in allied colors? My own commitment to historical accuracy is such that that's the only way I fly Luftwaffe aircraft, since I wouldn't have been in a position to operate them otherwise. I know I have the option of waiting for one or another of our repainters to provide one, but some other developers have included the allied option in the past (e.g. Classics Hangar with an RAF FW-190A, A2A/Aircraft Factory with an RAF Uhu). Hope it's something you'll consider.


https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/he-111-captured-jpg.196111/

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/captured-wings/images/e/e1/Heinkel_He_111H_captured_at_Boxted_UK_June_1945.jp g/revision/latest?cb=20131127164201

[bazzar]

Absolutely. We are including the RAF captured livery as part of the pack. It is interesting that the Air Ministry published British pilots notes for the type (together with others like the BF109) to assist RAF pilots flying these machines. I have a couple of them.

Whether it is true or not, I also understand that these were produced for aircrew so that in the event of being downed and "borrowing" an HE111 that was lying around, they could fly it home...lovely idea but I somehow doubt its authenticity.:engel016:

[Alan_A]

Absolutely. We are including the RAF captured livery as part of the pack. It is interesting that the Air Ministry published British pilots notes for the type (together with others like the BF109) to assist RAF pilots flying these machines. I have a couple of them.

Whether it is true or not, I also understand that these were produced for aircrew so that in the event of being downed and "borrowing" an HE111 that was lying around, they could fly it home...lovely idea but I somehow doubt its authenticity.:engel016:

Excellent news - you can count me in as an RAF evaluation pilot, then.

I once considered trying my hand at painting some late-war and postwar evaluation aircraft in US hands - the ones with the "FE" (Foreign Equipment) numbers stenciled on the fuselage. But that calls for painting skills way beyond what I've got. Maybe someday.

I once saw a hand-drawn allied pilot's guide to the FW-190 - but I think that was done by a prisoner of war who was hopeful of catching a ride. Have never seen a formal handbook - but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some department or other was busy grinding them out.

Thanks for all of that - looking forward to release.

[Bjoern]

Bazz, see this:

https://www.game.de/en/blog/2018/08/09/german-authorities-allow-inclusion-of-symbols-of-unconstitutional-organisations-in-games/

Note this:


When games that depict symbols of unconstitutional organisations are submitted to the USK for an age rating, the USK committees can now assess them on a case-by-case basis to decide whether the ‘social adequacy clause’ (Sozialadäquanzklausel, as laid out in section 86, subsection (3) of the German Criminal Code) applies. In this context, ‘social adequacy’ means that symbols of unconstitutional organisations can be used in games in individual cases, as long as those symbols serve an artistic or scientific purpose, or depict current or historical events.

The new regulation is not a free ticket. It might avoid some of the more silly ways around dealing with "that period of time", as in the new Wolfenstein games, but it still doesn't mean that you can slap historical markings on everything without a second thought - even as an option.

[warchild]

Artistic or scientific: Currrent or historic.. That sounds pretty broad and open too me. I m,ean, what is art?? It's been long established that Milt Caniff is an artist, and "Peanuts" is a work of art, along with Terry and the Pirates, and a ton of other comic strips. Meanwhile the designer of the Heinz Tomato soup lable takes home a paycheck and is foprgotten while Andy Warhol rakes in Millions for his bizaar and psychodelic depiction of it.. What is art??? These aircraft are obviously works of art. created by exceptional artists. Depictions of events current or historical. It could be argued that this is a game which is not dedicated to the representation of a specific period in time not the groups involved; being open ended and sandboxed as it is, but beyond that argument, the argument holds no water.

I think I need to shut upo here though. Bazaar should be fine, and it would be a gritty, but welcome change to see the past represented properly. g

[Bjoern]

Artistic or scientific: Currrent or historic.. That sounds pretty broad and open too me. I m,ean, what is art?? It's been long established that Milt Caniff is an artist, and "Peanuts" is a work of art, along with Terry and the Pirates, and a ton of other comic strips. Meanwhile the designer of the Heinz Tomato soup lable takes home a paycheck and is foprgotten while Andy Warhol rakes in Millions for his bizaar and psychodelic depiction of it.. What is art??? These aircraft are obviously works of art. created by exceptional artists. Depictions of events current or historical. It could be argued that this is a game which is not dedicated to the representation of a specific period in time not the groups involved; being open ended and sandboxed as it is, but beyond that argument, the argument holds no water.

I think I need to shut upo here though. Bazaar should be fine, and it would be a gritty, but welcome change to see the past represented properly. g

The definition of "art" is not the heart of the matter, but the intention with which the artist produced it and how the product is perceived by a broad audience.

Consider IL-2. It's a historically fairly accurate depiction of aerial warfare on the Eastern Front and therefor eligible for historically accurate markings. But on the other hand, you get to fly for the Axis, which requires consideration whether fully marked aircraft depict a glorification of some kind or not. Therefor, it is most likely not getting a free waiver.
Same as Hearts Of Iron. You have a shot at germanizing the world, so doing it under historical banners is a bit problematic.

On the other hand, there's games like Wolfenstein or The Saboteur, which are detached from any historical events and are pretty one-sided, explicit affairs and therefor may be eligible for symbols and markings. Games from the Battlefield series are somewhere in between and might get waved through, provided they are not striving for too much realism (e.g. BF1942).

So to be on the safe side in the context of third party content for games and sims published in Germany, historical markings should be kept as an option.

[dvj]

The proper resting position for one of these devils......

https://i.imgur.com/D8fXSLA.jpg

[bazzar]

Not a fan then?:engel016:

[wombat666]

The definition of "art" is not the heart of the matter, but the intention with which the artist produced it and how the product is perceived by a broad audience.

Consider IL-2. It's a historically fairly accurate depiction of aerial warfare on the Eastern Front and therefor eligible for historically accurate markings. But on the other hand, you get to fly for the Axis, which requires consideration whether fully marked aircraft depict a glorification of some kind or not. Therefor, it is most likely not getting a free waiver.
Same as Hearts Of Iron. You have a shot at germanizing the world, so doing it under historical banners is a bit problematic.

On the other hand, there's games like Wolfenstein or The Saboteur, which are detached from any historical events and are pretty one-sided, explicit affairs and therefor may be eligible for symbols and markings. Games from the Battlefield series are somewhere in between and might get waved through, provided they are not striving for too much realism (e.g. BF1942).

So to be on the safe side in the context of third party content for games and sims published in Germany, historical markings should be kept as an option.

Sailing close to the political line there Bjorn.
:playful:
However, options are always good to have.
I understand where you are coming from FWIW, and in my personal opinion the bulk of the users of the 'Wargames' you mention are not well acquainted with 'History'.

[bazzar]

What I do find curious is the amount of discussion on the tail insignia in relation to the subject. I don't believe I see as much when the subject is a BF109 or ME110. When we produced our last BF109E for Just Flight, we created an alternative for that and we have never heard anything about the insignia since it was launched.

We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution. :engel016:

[pilto von pilto]

What I do find curious is the amount of discussion on the tail insignia in relation to the subject. I don't believe I see as much when the subject is a BF109 or ME110. When we produced our last BF109E for Just Flight, we created an alternative for that and we have never heard anything about the insignia since it was launched.

We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution. :engel016:

And before anyone asks, we'll be geo-blocking the page so if you are using a german IP then you cant access the page. Outside of using a VPN/proxy/tor or asking someone else to download the files, that should be enough. I mean at some point the person who is circumventing the blocks in place and who is downloading the material actually has to be responsible. Or am I being naive? :smilet-digitalpoint

[huub vink]

And before anyone asks, we'll be geo-blocking the page so if you are using a german IP then you cant access the page. Outside of using a VPN/proxy/tor or asking someone else to download the files, that should be enough. I mean at some point the person who is circumventing the blocks in place and who is downloading the material actually has to be responsible. Or am I being naive? :smilet-digitalpoint

In general German laws are only applicable for the people who are on German territory and German citizens. When you want to sell on the German market your product should be in conformity with the German regulations. From the above I understand that you will not make the Heinkel available for the German market. Due to which it doesn't need to comply with German regulations on this topic. (In other words you are not naive :biggrin-new:)

A German person who buys the product at for instance JustFlight, which is registered in the UK, is importing the product into Germany. Often this is not regulated as this is considered only for "private use". There are of course many product from which importing these product is specially forbidden, like f.i. chemicals, which can easily have an unintended effect on other people. But I don't think this is the case with a virtual aircraft. This implements that the owner of the product is not allowed to display the Heinkel at public events.

As an example in the Netherlands I'm free to buy a tractor in China which doesn't comply with the European directives. As it doesn't comply with the European directives I'm not allowed to sell it as compiance a requirement defined in Dutch law. I'm also not allowed to have employees working with it, as this is a requirement from the Dutch labour act. I'm most likely not even allowed to drive it at public roads as it doesn't meet the requirements for Dutch traffic.

This is at least how it works for technical products. I assume this applicable in a similar way for virtual product like the Heinkel.

I'm not a lawyer, but as safety engineer, compliance a subject which is frequently on my plate.........

Cheers,
Huub

(And like Bazz, I'm surprised to see that "historical marking" are suddenly such a topic here.)

[Alan_A]

(And like Bazz, I'm surprised to see that "historical marking" are suddenly such a topic here.)

I'd venture to suggest that the "historical" symbol in question is more openly on display now in some quarters and at some events than it has been in the recent past, and for that reason it may be generating more interest and attention. Not trying (or wanting) to provoke a political discussion, just offering a theory about why the topic is hotter than it has been.

[huub vink]

Alan,

Quite recent a thread was started about the Hispano Aviacion Ha 112 Buchon and this tread started with several images which all contained, what we call historical correct markings. Not a single word was spend on them. Over the years I have release plenty of German repaints, in nearly all cases containing historical correct markings. Again no word spend on them. And suddenly in this thread it has become a topic and for me its completely unclear why.

When I still made plastic model kits the swastikas were a huge topic in Germany, but I had the feeling this had slowly faded away.
So that's why I'm a bit surprised. This has absolutely nothing to do with politics or the German choices.

But the original topic was the new AH Heinkel He.111, perhaps we should stick to this subject.

Cheers,
Huub

[Alan_A]

But the original topic was the new AH Heinkel He.111, perhaps we should stick to this subject.


Agreed. As for the rest - happy to discuss via PM if you'd like (or not - your call). But not here.

[Bjoern]

Sailing close to the political line there Bjorn.
:playful:

Beause that's what it is, at least within the confines of this country.

I just wanted to offer some (subjective) clarification on the subject since YoYo brought up the recent change in practice. For an official position, the publisher, JF, would have to inquire at the respective authority. But I figure that...


We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution. :engel016:

...this is the simplest solution for everybody involved, no matter what change in practices have occurred or will be occurring.



No further remarks, your honor.




A German person who buys the product at for instance JustFlight, which is registered in the UK, is importing the product into Germany. Often this is not regulated as this is considered only for "private use".

I think this practice was cracked down upon some years ago. Importing uncensored games from Austria, Switzerland or the UK used to be fairly popular ten plus years ago, until the authorities got wind of that loophole and closed it. Or until changes in digital distribution made it nearly impossible to install or use such software. Maybe both.

[bazzar]

As a final clarification on this point, we will be developing this product with an alternative symbol. German customers will receive this (as will everybody else) when they buy. If a customer requires the authentic symbol, they can download the relative texture. This download page will be locked for German customers.

Thanks.:engel016:

[YoYo]

2 new shots.

Pity that no TacPack :biggrin-new: :

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40383126_1327269777411392_9040238582723248128_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=5336d336d831b2d116485506edc3edb4&oe=5C331082

https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40449352_1327269807411389_4498644862903517184_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6b27a068bc98314461df93b91f2ec96e&oe=5BFDFD02