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blanston12
May 19th, 2018, 13:01
Hello Flyers.

I have seen lots of posts recently about Helicopters, but I for one have never gotten into them, mainly because I have always had so much trouble flying them in sim, mostly landing. So I was wondering if my experience is typical of others or how much am I in the minority, so I have devised this simple poll to find out.

docjohnson
May 19th, 2018, 13:28
Its a completely different paradigm, some of the instruments are the same, but it takes practice just to stay in a hover...and a lot more practice to get the helo on the ground without a hard landing or worse. I can get a helo on the ground pretty well, but that is experience gained by staying with it in the sim until you get it. Its akin to in fixed-wing doing 10 to 20 or more touch and goes doing different instrument procedures and visual patterns each time.

MrZippy
May 19th, 2018, 13:43
How do we count the MV-22?

WarHorse47
May 19th, 2018, 13:43
Flying helos "out of the box" is challenging, but very satisfying when done. Practice, practice, practice.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/WarHorse47/Random%20FSX%20Shots/Random%20FSX%2021/2018-1-30_21-3-59-370_zpsljsktkvt.jpg

It gets to be real fun when trying to land on a moving vessel.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/WarHorse47/Random%20FSX%20Shots/Random%20FSX%2020/2017-5-11_16-47-22-556_zpszwf4fcas.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/WarHorse47/Random%20FSX%20Shots/Random%20FSX%2020/2017-5-16_19-18-45-959_zpshteiymju.jpg

:untroubled:

blanston12
May 19th, 2018, 15:00
How do we count the MV-22?

Good question, fly's like a fixed wing, lands like a helicopter, so for my experience I would say the later.

PRB
May 19th, 2018, 15:06
I like flying the upside-down weed wackers. They are difficult to control in the hover, and difficult to land, and that's why they are fun. But I do fly mostly fly the "conventional" jobs.

Brian_Gladden
May 19th, 2018, 15:07
I struggled with Helo's for a long time. Then I bought the Virtavia Pave Low and it all clicked. It's so stable you can get the basics down and then you can move onto the more "squirly" helicopters as your skills increase.

Stefano Zibell
May 19th, 2018, 17:03
Hehe if you think 'copters are hard here try the Huey in DCS.

falcon409
May 19th, 2018, 17:35
Not bragging, but I've never had any problem flying Helo's. They take a bit of getting used to for sure but my very favorite one is Piglets "little Bird". Tree-top level through the Southeast Asian valleys and rice paddies. . .gives you a real appreciation for the Scouts who flew them.

fliger747
May 19th, 2018, 18:19
A couple of suggestions: Get a very sensitive joystick such as one of the hall effect models and also a good set of pedals. Usually whatever you use as a throttle will be used as a collective, this needs to be sensitive and accurate as well.

Surprisingly all the effort put forth in the sim was very valuable when I began flying real helicopters. In some ways the real ones are a bit easier as one has the instant input of dynamic (seat of pants) senses. I even found that the type of shoe soles were important (no lugs).

Lots of fun! T

mgchrist5
May 19th, 2018, 21:13
Generally I'd say I'm about 90% fixed wing, if not more. With fixed wing I keep all my FSX sliders to the full right. With helicopters I slide them all full left. It might be cheating, but that's the only way I've ever been able to keep a modicum of control on rotorcraft in FS...at least during landing/takeoff. And this is coming from someone who's a real life (very rusty) PPL. I've never flown a rotorcraft in RL, but if they're even half as difficult as they're portrayed in FS, then my hats off to some of the most steely-eyed men & women on planet Earth.

wombat666
May 19th, 2018, 21:40
If you can tap dance, juggle and chew gum at the same time you can fly helicopters.
:encouragement:

PhantomTweak
May 19th, 2018, 22:26
If you can tap dance, juggle and chew gum at the same time you can fly helicopters.
:encouragement:
If you can do all that, while standing on a beach ball, balancing a stick with a spinning plate on it, on top of a basket ball in your hands, THEN, and only then, can you fly a helicopter in the real world, let alone the sim world.

Having said all that, the MS sims, like FS9 or FSX, are notoriously bad at simulating helicopters. They just don't handle the physics correctly.
BUT: Add the program HTR (Helicopter Total Realism) to change things, and LO! NOW the sim handles the physics, and control inputs/outputs, correctly.

It was written by an actual Aeronautical Engineer, who had specialized in helicopters. He had the assistance of a number of real world helicopter pilots, both civil and military, as well as a couple of superb simulator helicopter designers, like Jordan Moore.

Great program. Improves the helicopters to something approaching realistic. I can't stress it's importance if you really want to see what it's like to fly a helicopter.

The biggest complaints I've heard from some real-world military helicopter pilots I know, is that there's no "seat of the pants" feel, which apparently is a great deal of the pilot's input from the helicopter. Instruments are fine, but it's the butt that really tells the tale. Obviously, the sim doesn't handle that at all, but, as to the rest, HTR plus FSX is actually a pretty good combo.

I sure enjoy it. I'm looking to either find an config, or work up my own, for the MV-22, to see how it handles having HTR running. More to come on that project...

Pat☺

Ganter
May 20th, 2018, 00:02
Hello Flyers.

I have seen lots of posts recently about Helicopters, but I for one have never gotten into them, mainly because I have always had so much trouble flying them in sim, mostly landing. So I was wondering if my experience is typical of others or how much am I in the minority, so I have devised this simple poll to find out.

I fly helos a lot in the sim.
It takes a lot of practice.

The best hint I've had so far is to cancel your Null zones for your controllers and stick your realism sliders to half way. That makes inputs simultaneous and you'll massively improve your skills in the hover, T/O and Landings.

roger-wilco-66
May 20th, 2018, 00:05
I tried HTR with P3D and loaded the Huey profile, but it made the helicopter (Milviz Huey) very unresponsive, even with the autotrim functions off. Then I tried Piglets Loach (a little masterpiece!!) and it was almost unflyble with HTR - over responsive. I fly with pedals and a Saitek throttle acting as collective. Normally I have a good command over helos.

See


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8toxc7382BM


Did anyone do better with HTR?


Cheers,
Mark

jagl04
May 20th, 2018, 03:25
Helicopters are great for naval ops, it is challenging to land on a small moving deck and you can use a lot of ships. I use helicopters to recognize and enjoy a variety of landscapes in FSX world. It is just practice, practice and a good adjustment of controls. And it is diffciult to make rescue ops with airplanes.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60501&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60502&stc=1

Of course, airlpanes are much better for other duties

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60503&stc=1

java2srv
May 20th, 2018, 04:03
I started using a USB Xbox Game Controller on a laptop when I travelled and didn't have joystick and pedals. Using the Game Controller with the Hovercontrol 412 and FSUIPC is what got me started enjoying flying helicopters.

Possibly the different control inputs, like triggers for rudders and 'X' and 'A' for collective instead of throttle, made learning helicopters easier since the control coordination was new and completely different from what I'd learned for airplanes.

Using the Game Controller is still how I fly helicopters, developing the flight skills was and is a new challenge, and like others have said it's fun for exploring and enjoying the scenery too.

IanP
May 20th, 2018, 06:24
I'm odd, because while I spend pretty much all of my sim time testing WW2 airfields (and there ain't much testing going on at the moment. :( ) then I tend to use helicopters to do it - particularly either the default Bellicopter because it's so stable, or the Milviz MD500, because it allows me to change direction/altitude very quickly when I spot something I want or need to look at.

So I spend a lot of time in helos, developing for a pure fixed wing environment... I'm sure there's some irony there somewhere.

Ian P.

mal998
May 20th, 2018, 06:51
Part of the problem with flying helicopters in the sim is control sensitivity is way too high. For those who would like to fly helicopters but are frustrated by the difficulty doing so there are a few things you can do to turn down the sensitivity and increase control. First, go to controller settings and turn the aileron, elevator and rudder sliders to minimum while increasing the null settings to 50%. You can play with these settings until you like the control response. Secondly you can open the aircraft.cfg and locate the the following header.

[Helicopter]
low_realism_stability_scale= x, x, x,

The three numbers can be adjusted to increase stability in each realm.

The original settings for the old AlphaSim KA-27 Helix were as follows:

[Helicopter]
low_realism_stability_scale=.65, .70, 1.20 //Pitch , Bank, Yaw Scalars on Stability in Low Realism Settings

I have increased the stability of each parameter to 1.50 I think it helped to make the aircraft more stable and easier to fly. Again, you can play with the numbers until you get the desired result.

It is certainly not a perfect solution but it might help to make your favorite helicopter more flyable so you can get it out of the hanger and into the wild blue yonder.

Victory103
May 20th, 2018, 10:39
RW helo guy(R22,B206,UH60) and honesty as it’s been stated over the years, without some external software like HTR, FS rotary flight is far from perfect. Very true regarding the POV, controls, and seat of the pants feel missing from your PC sim. After a 4 hour flight in a R22, I went home to FSX and could never really get my controls set to replicate that feeling and responsiveness. Coming from the Black Hawk where power reserves are literally through the roof compared to a very fragile machine with each input I had to think about every maneuver and the power required. I also have DCS and the Huey, as stated the VRS is overdone, the UH-1 is relatively easy to fly (can’t confirm yet).

That said, helos in FS can be fun and challenging for those looking for something different than setting autopilot on and cruising the flight levels. Sling loads/ hoisting can be just as sweaty palm inducing as real world. Landing on the back of a moving ship at night with wx should break up any boredom. Brown-out landings aren’t there yet, but more work on .fx files to fix that. The Hovercontrol main page on sim set up is a good start (probably needs an update) covering the differences in your stock fixed wing settings.

PhantomTweak
May 20th, 2018, 11:43
Remember, HTR configs and settings are sensitive to each system's differences. What works perfectly for system X won't work worth a darn for system Y. The trick is to read the documentation that comes with HTR. It contains a PDF on HOW-TO make your own .cfg file from scratch, and another containing each and every .cfg file entry, what they do to/for the helicopter and control input/outputs, and how to adjust them for your plane on your system.

Also, Jordan Moore, a superb and very educated helicopter developer, wrote two article on how to tweak the aircraft and .air file to make the MSFS limitations and errors at least controllable. I've found them excellent. Part 1 is here: http://www.hovercontrol.com/artman/publish/article_67.shtml , and part 2 is here: http://www.hovercontrol.com/artman/publish/article_88.shtml .
They are fascinating, and I strongly recommend reading them, at the very least.

Make sure you have the correct version of HTR for your sim. FSX:SE, and the latest FSUIPC for it, requires V6.2, and FSX (I think P3D as well), with the latest FSUIPC needs V6.1. You may need to google them. I don't recall Fred putting up a link on Hovercontrol, but hey, I may be wrong. AND he may have updated again. I haven't had a chance to check up on it in a couple months.

Bear in mind, there's a huge difference between "easy to fly", and how a helicopter really flies. If you have everything just right, they will be flyable, but not a one of them is easy.

Setting the realism sliders down off max right makes a big difference, and most devs set up the .air file entries for such a setting. Anywhere down off max makes a big change in the aircraft.cfg and .air file's settings utilization. Like the low_realism_stability_scale= setting mentioned previously. It's only applied if the realism sliders (and I don't recall just which one) are down off max. If you set them to 99%, it's applied, 100%, it's not. See? I leave mine at about 80-90%.
And Null zones should be 0, or very very close there-to, with the sensitivity maxxed out, or close to it. This is for a hall-effect type controller. No "dead spot" like the potentiometer type controllers have. No matter how old they get. They either work, or not.
I haven't used a potentiometer type in a long time, so I can't recall just what they need, but I know you have to have a wide enough Null zone setting to accommodate the "dead spot" all pots have. An it changes with use. It may get larger, smaller, whatever. Usually larger, though.

Try Jordan's adjustments first, as well, and work from there. THEN step into HTR's world. It's an amazing bit of software. When properly utilized and set up.

Pat☺

awstub
May 20th, 2018, 12:28
Usually, I fly them while checking scenery placement.

Helos can be frustrating. I think it's because of the lack of depth perception you experience (unless you have a VR rig).

Dangerous Beans
May 20th, 2018, 15:11
Usually, I fly them while checking scenery placement.

Helos can be frustrating. I think it's because of the lack of depth perception you experience (unless you have a VR rig).

I fly exclusively in VR these days and it makes a huge difference in Helos and I enjoy flying them now whereas before as awstub says they where just frustrating.

LouP
May 20th, 2018, 17:13
Did anyone do better with HTR?


Cheers,
Mark

I've had some luck with it. Some helis do better than others. The Cera 412 and 212 work very nicely with it, then again they seem to work well anyway. But, I found some helis just would not respond to control inputs with htr for some reason.

Also, flying in VR has made the helis so much more fun. You just seem to be able to anticipate things so much better in VR. I only need a seat that moves properly now for that seat of the pants feeling lol.


LouP

Alan_A
May 20th, 2018, 20:31
About five years ago I spent a solid year-plus flying nothing but helos - mostly the Dodosim Bell 206 in FSX. Used custom helo controls. Found I was able to get pretty good at it, but not more than that - didn't get to real proficiency, and in the end I was happy to get back to fixed wing. But I learned a lot and still draw on some of it - I think I was able to handle single-seat warbirds well after managing helo torque, and get good landings in a whole range of aircraft, thanks to my helo approaches and touchdowns. I don't think I'd want to go back to rotary wing but I'm glad I hung out with it for a while.

PhantomTweak
May 20th, 2018, 21:51
If only I could use VR!
You gotta have two good eyes for VR to work at all, and I'm down to one left. :banghead:
I ran into a horse at 60 MPH on my bike, and bounce down the highway. Messed one of my eyes all kinds of up. :pirate:
No close in depth perception, like within arm's reach or so, like trying to pick something up, or catch something thrown to me, but I've learned how to fake distance depth perception, like when I'm driving. It's all the feel of the focus. You'd be surprized. Normally, your brain uses parallax for distance, but I've learned another way, and my brain is pretty good at "feeling" the focus of the eye for depth perception.
Kind of frustrating, though. I used to be a good juggler, but I lost the eye, and that was the end of that, drat it. It's FUN! :applause:

Anyway, no VR for me! Pity, I think helicopters would be better with it...

Pat☺

Daube
May 20th, 2018, 22:40
Hello Flyers.

I have seen lots of posts recently about Helicopters, but I for one have never gotten into them, mainly because I have always had so much trouble flying them in sim, mostly landing. So I was wondering if my experience is typical of others or how much am I in the minority, so I have devised this simple poll to find out.

I believe we all had severe trouble to fly helicopters. These are the most difficult thing to pilot, aren't they ?
However, with a little bit of training, and with nice sceneries to fly over, the helicopter are quite a rewarding experience.
If you want to train, I would recommend you to use helicopters on wheels, and at first, try to fly them like an airplane, both for takeoff and landings.
Then progressively, try reducing your speed more and more. This will require more control of the engine power and rudder. If you go progressively enough (which means you don't attempt to hover after two tries...), you will get to "feel" and anticipate the required inputs on power and rudder.
That being said, I fly helicopters in the sim since FS9, and I'm still unable to do a proper hover (a real clean one, like the rescue pilots do, for example).
I can however takeoff and land anywhere I want, including very small surfaces.

Regarding the poll, I still fly mostly (2/3) fixed wings. But this is also due to the very small amount of quality helicopters available for our sims.
The Milviz Huey is probable my current favorite, followed by the MP Design Gazelle and the S-55.

Ganter
May 20th, 2018, 22:40
I fly exclusively in VR these days and it makes a huge difference in Helos and I enjoy flying them now whereas before as awstub says they where just frustrating.


Track IR here - and yes, being able to glance out of the side windows without having to TopHat it makes a very big difference. It's situational awareness in the hover - predicting the helos movements, being ready to counter - not too much, constant small inputs, ready with the power.

I committed to helos about a year ago - flying them at least an hour in the sim each week - to begin with much more. After a year or so I reckon I'm 'okay' - I can hover taxi, hover, etc. Put the helo where I want it; flight deck, clearing in the woods, on the heliport on the top of the lighthouse.

That's after an estimated 75 hours of flight!

It is practice - you will get better and when you do they're a great buzz.

LouP
May 20th, 2018, 23:08
I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated heli setup with cyclic, collective, and anti-tourqe pedals so take this with a grain of salt but I was tought to have my settings almost the opposite of some suggestions here. Sliders are all full right and NO null zones. Idea being that you want your inputs to register as soon as posible but get ready to "correct" that as soon as possible with quick subtle movements. Ounce you do it for a while, you learn what the helis reaction to your input is going to be and anticipate what might be needed next. Constant small corrections. Remember, these things don't fly, the earth repels them because their so ugly.

LouP

PS. I miss the Dodo

Naismith
May 21st, 2018, 00:10
Instead of hovering, I tend to plummet.

William Njurmi
May 21st, 2018, 01:49
Most annoying thing to me when flying helos is that that I have to push the stick all the time to fly level. DCS helos are much more controllable. Otherwise great platform for special missions in all sims.

thefrog
May 21st, 2018, 02:24
I found that it suddenly all came together after years of frustration: some tips from various forums made all the difference especially with hovering (which I found the most difficult) such as not fixating on the ground immediately in front of you but looking into the middle distance and making tiny frequent inputs with the cyclic and then immediately returning it to the neutral position. Also, learning to see and anticipate which way the machine is starting to go and correcting for it almost before it’s done it.
Practice actually doesn’t make perfect unless you’re practicing the correct techniques!

PhantomP
May 21st, 2018, 07:56
Does anybody know if the latest version of HTR 1.6.2 works with FSX gold,or boxed addition? I found a couple of links,but one page says it works only with the steam version,and the other link says it works with FSX,and the steam version?Thanks

vortex
May 21st, 2018, 08:47
Does anybody know if the latest version of HTR 1.6.2 works with FSX gold,or boxed addition? I found a couple of links,but one page says it works only with the steam version,and the other link says it works with FSX,and the steam version?Thanks

There's no reason it should ONLY work with FSX:SE. The readme file which comes with v1.62 says: "tested under FSX and FSX Steam Edition".

Ganter
May 21st, 2018, 08:47
Instead of hovering, I tend to plummet.


LOL. Just rereading Fate Is The Hunter; the instructor Captain turns to the co-pilot who's just performed very badly in the DC-2 and says quietly; "That wasn't a landing, it was an arrival."

Remember as a helo pilot you need to be more obsessed with wind and wind direction than fixed wing.

ALWAYS know where it's coming from and always aim to land directly in to it - then you're not hovering - you're flying forwards (though with zero ground speed) at whatever the wind speed is. Dial it up in the sim to make it easier. Dial it back when it's getting too easy.

Try landing on Nimitz (with her under way and in to wind) - again, you're not hovering - but the deck's stationary below.

When you can hover in zero wind - Hey, guess what? - you're a goddamn helo pilot.

PhantomP
May 21st, 2018, 08:53
There's no reason it should ONLY work with FSX:SE. The readme file which comes with v1.62 says: "tested under FSX and FSX Steam Edition".Thanks for the answer vortex,I appreciate it.

blanston12
May 21st, 2018, 11:05
Does anybody know if the latest version of HTR 1.6.2 works with FSX gold,or boxed addition? I found a couple of links,but one page says it works only with the steam version,and the other link says it works with FSX,and the steam version?Thanks

Does anyone know if HTR is compatible with or useful when using P3D?

LouP
May 21st, 2018, 15:29
I tested HTR in P3D v4.2 out last night but wasn't happy. My Cera 365 started running away on it's own and there was nothing I could do to stop it from rolling away. The 212 and 412 which I remember working well in fsx with HTR were not good in p3d. Full right on the pedals had practically no effect and couldn't turn right. I would bank right and instead of turning I flew on my side in a straight line. I'm not a rw heli pilot but I don't think that would happen in real life. I'm putting it away and waiting for the new 64 bit dodo being worked on. You can read Mark and Simon's log about the 64 bit dodo over at hovercontrol's forum. I'll be snatching that up as soon as it is released. You may need to be a member to read this.

http://www.hovercontrol.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=46;t=22770;hl=206

Meanwhile there's some pretty challenging birds out there with decent enough flight dynamics. I'm one of those sickos that really enjoys the Nemeth AS350, AS355, EC130 and all the Cerasim birds. Oh and my latest like are the MP Design Gazelles (the S55 is pretty good, too)

Portia911
May 22nd, 2018, 15:57
Thanks for starting this thread, Joe. It is a most interesting read.
I'm just getting back into choppers - flying a float-equipped Bell 47 (Flysimware) around Chichagof Island, AK. Good thing about this is I can land pretty much where I want (on the water) at SPBs, so can be practicing my approach/decent/hover/landing without having to have the pin-point accuracy of landing on an 'X' or 'H'.

blanston12
May 22nd, 2018, 16:08
Thanks for starting this thread, Joe. It is a most interesting read.
I'm just getting back into choppers - flying a float-equipped Bell 47 (Flysimware) around Chichagof Island, AK. Good thing about this is I can land pretty much where I want (on the water) at SPBs, so can be practicing my approach/decent/hover/landing without having to have the pin-point accuracy of landing on an 'X' or 'H'.

I am glad so many people are enjoying this also. So many good tips, Daube's suggestion of wheeled helo's is something I never would have though of, I always tried the small ones that only had skids but it makes a lot of sense, now I just need to find time to try all these suggestions.

This also makes me more interested in VR goggles, but I don't think the wife would be very happy with me when I am totally in the virtual world.

Willy
May 22nd, 2018, 16:19
I play around with them a bit now and again when I get to feeling cocky. I can do ok about half the time with them. But to me, the Gee Bee Z is easier to fly and I crash it far less.

LouP
May 22nd, 2018, 16:31
I play around with them a bit now and again when I get to feeling cocky. I can do ok about half the time with them. But to me, the Gee Bee Z is easier to fly and I crash it far less.

This made me laugh, thanks Willy.

LouP

Daube
May 22nd, 2018, 16:36
I am probably going to face the same problem about the VR googles :D
But I think I'm going to buy some anyways. I couldn't never get motivated to buy a TrackIR, but the Windows Mixed Reality VR googles (especially the Samsung ones, although not sold in Europe...) are a different story.

Flying low and slow over a nicely detailed area, like the area around an OrbX airport/airfield, or a nice photoscenery with autogen, is already so pleasant on a screen, so with VR it must be mind blowing...

http://sapdaube.free.fr/p3d4/daube_image0006.jpg

scotth6
May 22nd, 2018, 18:22
I mostly fly choppers when I am checking out a scenery up close, or for some low and slow flights. I am pretty proficient in the air, but landing on a small pad is a different story :biggrin-new:.

Portia911
May 22nd, 2018, 22:48
I mostly fly choppers when I am checking out a scenery up close, or for some low and slow flights. I am pretty proficient in the air, but landing on a small pad is a different story :biggrin-new:.

My most satisfying small pad landing was Eldred Rock Lighthouse (south of Haines, AK). I can't recall now if comes with ORBX SAK, or whether it's a RTMM add-on, but it's a tiny island with just enough room for the Lighthouse and a commensurately small timber helipad. Took me quite a few <cough> passes before I got a nice touchdown there.


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60560&stc=1

Ganter
May 23rd, 2018, 10:29
Rotarys are great - they get you where nothing else can...

https://s20.postimg.cc/x2lh8cr3h/2018_Mar_preview.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

blanston12
May 31st, 2018, 09:37
Now that this poll is over, I do have to report that I am in the minority, while 35% of us reported that we fly fixed wing almost exclusively, that means that 65% fly helicopters at least some of the time, including 5% most of the time.

Interesting results and stories, thanks mates!

Ganter
May 31st, 2018, 10:13
Now that this poll is over, I do have to report that I am in the minority, while 35% of us reported that we fly fixed wing almost exclusively, that means that 65% fly helicopters at least some of the time, including 5% most of the time.

Interesting results and stories, thanks mates!


Yes, indeed Pug Dog, thanks for posting the thread - it has sparked some interesting discussion - and that's always good.

It has been interesting reading. I guess the takeaway might be that the more you fly them - the better you get - and, as a consequence of that; the more sim time they seem to claim from you. Certainly the leaps in recent Carriers have got me flying them more but I'm an old VTOL bloke so always have a soft spot for something that can go straight up and down.

Great thread. :encouragement: