Northrop P-61C Black Widow project

[DC1973]

Hi all,

With the Reporter now released ( and the #1 download at Simviation for 3 days now! :applause: ) I'm switching to the P-61C Black Widow. This is not intended to get in the way of the SoH P-61B project - I just don't think you can have enough Black Widows and we've been without a good one in flight sim for far too long.

The fuselage exterior modelling is complete, and I'm at work on texture assignments and interior modelling. With the rest of the airplane essentially identical to the Reporter, it's a bit of an easier job with only the FDE to be altered to account for the much heavier airframe.

The time frame for this project is quite short, as I'm effectively getting two planes out of one project. I'm hoping to have a BETA out within about a month, and the v1 release out shortly afterward. Wish me luck!

P.S. The RF-8 Vought Crusader project will begin as soon as the Widow is complete.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60427&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60428&stc=1

[Seahawk72s]

With a third crew member I wondered what your thoughts were for the radar observer position in the aft..?
In particular what avionics could be placed there.
Will you go with an animated hatch opening as well.?

With the fun I've been having with the reporter, I'm looking forward to your newest model.

Thanks...

[DC1973]

With a third crew member I wondered what your thoughts were for the radar observer position in the aft..?
In particular what avionics could be placed there.
Will you go with an animated hatch opening as well.?

With the fun I've been having with the reporter, I'm looking forward to your newest model.

Thanks...

I'm looking into including a basic radar screen for both pilot and RO, along with TacPack compatibility, that will allow the Widow to fulfill a night-fighter role as per its real world operations within flight sim. Although the radar will be a basic affair, it'll be enough to go hunting for Zeros at night :)

Cockpit hatches will be animated in the normal way - the Widow's opened down through the oleo wheel bay and had a folding ladder. Not tough to include that.

[Seahawk72s]

Some interesting paint schemes and history.

https://comradeloganov.deviantart.com/art/Northrop-F-15A-Reporter-NACA-Ames-Laboratory-448200013

https://www.deviantart.com/tag/rf61c




(https://www.deviantart.com/tag/rf61c)

[DC1973]

Yes, he does some amazing artwork. I was going to use his images as a reference when doing the Reporter's textures, but I learned that mostly they're "what if" schemes with fictional histories rather than actual aircraft. Only the NACA Reporter actually existed from his images. Shame, as the Reporter would have looked quite nice in camouflage schemes!

[DC1973]

Just asking a question of folks here regarding the Reporter's VC ( upon which the P-61C's VC will be based ): include instrument bezels, or not? They look fab, but there does seem to be an appetite for users to switch the gauges out for others and this can be tricky if the new gauges have dials and knobs that protrude or are obscured by neighbouring bezels.

I'm modelling these aircraft as freeware for the community so I'm happy to go with the flow. What would folks prefer?

[Josh Patterson]

Just asking a question of folks here regarding the Reporter's VC ( upon which the P-61C's VC will be based ): include instrument bezels, or not? They look fab, but there does seem to be an appetite for users to switch the gauges out for others and this can be tricky if the new gauges have dials and knobs that protrude or are obscured by neighbouring bezels.

I'm modelling these aircraft as freeware for the community so I'm happy to go with the flow. What would folks prefer? If I ever swap gauges out I just size them to fit the panel (usually takes a few tries to get it right) so having a bezel there doesn't bother me. I've only run into the protruding knob problem on the IRIS MiG-27. I just tell myself "Meh, it's free." and go flying!

[Josh Patterson]

Some interesting paint schemes and history.

https://comradeloganov.deviantart.com/art/Northrop-F-15A-Reporter-NACA-Ames-Laboratory-448200013

https://www.deviantart.com/tag/rf61c




(https://www.deviantart.com/tag/rf61c)I do like the Gee Bee texture on the nacelle/boom! It would make an interesting racer! One thing I've been wondering about the canopy frame. I was flying it from the VC and didn't see the bow where the rear of the canopy meets the forward half then looked around and saw it over my shoulder. Thought it was a mistake so I looked at an exterior view and then some photos. YES! It really is that far back! Makes for great visibility but my question is this... How does the pilot get out? Does he have to squeeze between the canopy bow and the top of the seat or does the seat unlock and slide backwards?

[Seahawk72s]

I do enjoy the 3D effect the hard modeled bezels give but I've also found a set of 2D gauges where the bezel
art work gives a 3D effect. Another factor is the replacement size of some gauges definitely needs more space
then fixed bezels allow. There is a set of Sperry III gauges, very accurately modeled with great art work that need more room.

Thanks...

[falcon409]

I do enjoy the 3D effect the hard modeled bezels give but I've also found a set of 2D gauges where the bezel
art work gives a 3D effect. Another factor is the replacement size of some gauges definitely needs more space
then fixed bezels allow. There is a set of Sperry III gauges, very accurately modeled with great art work that need more room.

Thanks...
With 3D bezels, you might as well make the entire gauge part of the model. You can't count on the fact that every person who wants to set up his own gauges will find ones that fit within the modeled bezels. Also, I can guarantee you that tweaking ones own airplane VC is widespread and rampant, lol. . .so for me either make them all 3D and fixed so no one can go changing things to suit their own preferences or make them 2D and let the tweaking begin, but half and half is not a good idea.

[SH427]

Love the P-61, so will be following with vested interest!
Have you seen the video from the era that details her flight characteristics, starting the engines (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZxlIjQqiTk) and so on? looks like a great resource. As for the gauges, I am an out of the box flyer, I rarely mod panels and so on, so my vote would be to go full 3D gauges, if possible, as they look and work better overall.

If you'd like a beta tester, sign me up!

[DC1973]

Thanks for all the responses! It sounds like a bit of a mixed bag. Ideally I would create custom gauges for the entire airplane so that nobody would have to alter anything but that's a lot of extra work and I'd like to move on from the Northrop airplanes soon. I may include the option of making the bezels invisible using a custom XML code and one of the un-used cockpit switches, thus effectively giving users the choice of either the flat panel or a 3D one. That's probably the easiest solution to the issue.

I'll also look into third-party WW2 gauges and see if there are any freeware out there that can be used to fill in the gaps :)

[stansdds]

I have always voted for dual models. One with a fixed, 3D panel that replicates the original aircraft and one that has a flat panel to allow the user to create a customized panel.

[mal998]

DC,
I have some reference material on the P-61, including detailed photos and drawings of the cockpit layout and flight manuals. If you think it would be helpful, PM me and we'll figure out how to get a zip file to you.

mal

[Seahawk72s]

I was wondering if this was accurate and would be included...?


The P-61C was equipped with perforated fighter airbrakes located both below and above the wing surfaces. These were to provide a means of preventing the pilot from overshooting his target during an intercept. For added fuel capacity, the P-61C was equipped with four underwing pylons (two inboard of the nacelles, two outboard) which could carry four 310 gal (1,173 l) drop tanks.

[Josh Patterson]

I was wondering if this was accurate and would be included...? Yes, two on top and two on the bottom of each wing the upper ones opening aft, the lowers forward. (To the vertical no less!) The ones on the bottom were twice as tall as the ones on top. Even though they existed, the speed brakes were disabled on all units leaving the line after a P-61C was lost testing them.

[warchild]

yeah.. Ripped the poor things wings off..

[DC1973]

DC,
I have some reference material on the P-61, including detailed photos and drawings of the cockpit layout and flight manuals. If you think it would be helpful, PM me and we'll figure out how to get a zip file to you.

mal

Thanks Mal! I've got the manuals and photos from my original research and a "history of" book I bought, but if you have anything unusual or rare that would be awesome. I'm porting the Reporter's VC into the Widow, with a few changes, and adding the other seats and positions once everything's in place.

Regarding the air brakes, yes they will be modelled and animated in full to replace the low-wing air brakes fitted to the Reporter. I'll leave it to Pam to handle their effectiveness, but by all pilot accounts they stopped the Widow almost dead in the air!

[Seahawk72s]

......

Regarding the air brakes, yes they will be modelled and animated in full to replace the low-wing air brakes fitted to the Reporter. I'll leave it to Pam to handle their effectiveness, but by all pilot accounts they stopped the Widow almost dead in the air!

Thanks, that is good news, it will be an impressive effect.
Do you think there is a chance for droppable wing tanks..?

[DC1973]

Thanks, that is good news, it will be an impressive effect.
Do you think there is a chance for droppable wing tanks..?

I'm not sure at this point. I know that the sim is capable of it but it's not something I've studied yet. I'll keep it in mind.

[DennyA]

After a bunch of travel I finally got a chance to install your wonderful F-15 Reporter, so I'm really psyched to see the P-61 is next!

On the panel, I fly with VR goggles most of the time, so I'm definitely a fan of the modeled instruments as the flat ones look like an animated cartoon when viewed in VR. But I won't be picky!

And the RF-8 after that? Awesome! Have you read Crusader: Last of the Gunfighters (https://amzn.to/2It9zXe)? There's an awesome story in there about a recon run during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Milton Shupe]

Just asking a question of folks here regarding the Reporter's VC ( upon which the P-61C's VC will be based ): include instrument bezels, or not? They look fab, but there does seem to be an appetite for users to switch the gauges out for others and this can be tricky if the new gauges have dials and knobs that protrude or are obscured by neighbouring bezels.

I'm modelling these aircraft as freeware for the community so I'm happy to go with the flow. What would folks prefer?

Thanks for you contributions; great stuff! :-)

I prefer a mix on the gauges because most of my projects have lots of them; too many to do 3D gauges on all.

So, my approach preference is shown here on my current project.

I do 3D Cages and Bezels lifted just off the background panel. (No cuts to the panel background surface)
The circular back of the bezel I detach for the gauge face which is mapped separately for simple Panel Studio gauge size and placement of 2D gauges.

The cages and bezels are textured as one part.

See the examples in attachments.

So, for those who like to swap gauges, it's a simple matter.

[DC1973]

Thanks for you contributions; great stuff! :-)

I prefer a mix on the gauges because most of my projects have lots of them; too many to do 3D gauges on all.

So, my approach preference is shown here on my current project.



Thanks Milton, your approach does seem to be a good compromise. I think on the Reporter it was inexperience on my part - some of the gauges I put too closely together, whereas others are fine - like my old teachers used to say, I should have paid closer attention :)

I think I'll follow your example and make sure that anything with protruding knobs ( such as altimeter, artificial horizon etc ) get the full 3D treatment, the rest just bezels for the surrounds - that way folks should be able to switch things out any way they want.

[Seahawk72s]

........I think I'll follow your example and make sure that anything with protruding knobs ( such as altimeter, artificial horizon etc ) get the full 3D treatment, the rest just bezels for the surrounds - that way folks should be able to switch things out any way they want.

When appropriate can you share what you see as the P-61C panel layout..?
Thanks...

[DC1973]

The P-61C cockpit looked like this;

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60555&stc=1

I'll be altering the existing Reporter VC to match in terms of general layout, and of course will include both the gunner and radar operator positions. My version probably won't look quite as "busy" as the real thing.

[warchild]

A little different from the P-61B but not too much. I have to chuckle over the radar screen being removed because itwas classified when this was taken. it looks really busy yues, but actually, its laid out logically enough that its very easy to manage.. Trust me on that ::LOL::..

[Seahawk72s]

Any idea what this is...?

[SH427]

Any idea what this is...?

Looks like a short checklist for an engine fire procedure.

[Seahawk72s]

Looks like a short checklist for an engine fire procedure.

With fire warning lights just above it..?

[Seahawk72s]

Just a little experimenting with a 2D panel...

[warchild]

Its a set of instructions on how to deal with a Fire.

[Seahawk72s]

Its a set of instructions on how to deal with a Fire.

Is there a picture showing the instructions..?

[falcon409]

Is there a picture showing the instructions..?
I looked at over a dozen shots of P-61 cockpits and while that one pic obviously has it. . .I didn't find any others that showed that placard. Possibly placed there during early testing until the cause was corrected. . .then removed from future versions?

[Ferry_vO]

FIRE
1 Shut off
fuel
2 Feather
Propellor
3 Cut ignition
4 Switch on
Extinguisher
5 Do not start
Engine again

According to the manual.

[Seahawk72s]

FIRE
1 Shut off
fuel
2 Feather
Propellor
3 Cut ignition
4 Switch on
Extinguisher
5 Do not start
Engine again

According to the manual.

Thanks...!

[DC1973]

Well, whatever else might be said about the Northrop Black Widow, they got the name right. This is one mean looking beastie! I'm not going to be able to complete this one without making sure those guns work with TacPack... :devilish:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60592&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60593&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60594&stc=1

[DC1973]

One more shot from Prepar3D v4. Model showing up nicely, no major differences from the FSX test.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60595&stc=1

[Josh Patterson]

Well, whatever else might be said about the Northrop Black Widow, they got the name right. This is one mean looking beastie! I'm not going to be able to complete this one without making sure those guns work with TacPack... :devilish:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60592&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60593&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60594&stc=1 WOW!! I dare say this looks even better than the Reporter. The reflections and rivets on the black bird are fantastic!

[SH427]

:applause:
This looks awesome, I'll be happy to test the engines off this one!!

[Seahawk72s]

A good review for what's coming.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5DNMTJiNmw

[Shessi]

You are damn good Dean!

Being stuck in FSDS world, I was gob-smacked to discover you'd done the Reporter and BW in FSDS 3.5. It's fantastic to see what can be done with it in the hands of an expert......who needs Gmax pahhhh!! ;)

Those compound curves are just beautiful, and there's a lot in a P61. Didn't think FSDS could look so good. :applause:

Cheers

Shessi

[DC1973]

You are damn good Dean!

Being stuck in FSDS world, I was gob-smacked to discover you'd done the Reporter and BW in FSDS 3.5. It's fantastic to see what can be done with it in the hands of an expert......who needs Gmax pahhhh!! ;)

Those compound curves are just beautiful, and there's a lot in a P61. Didn't think FSDS could look so good. :applause:

Cheers

Shessi

Thanks Shessi for your kind words! :)

FSDS may be a bit long in the tooth but it's adequate for just about anything if a user is willing to put the time and effort in. Same goes for the other programs too. The best plan is always to pick the right one for you and then stick with it the whole way through.

[DC1973]

Minor update: I've been away on holiday for a week so haven't had much time to work on the Widow. Just got back the other day and did some tests in FSX, making sure that the engines and VC controls are porting over okay, checking texture layouts etc. All progressing well :) It's going to take some work to convert the cockpit and create the RO position, but I'm still hopeful for a July release with TacPack compatibility for weapons and a simple radar for night time Zero hunting operations...

Textures for the airplane will be a bare metal test version ( the only P-61C ever to wear bare metal ), a Project Thunderstorm scheme and, of course, Moonlight Serenade.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60914&stc=1

[Seahawk72s]

Stunning..! Well worth the wait, thanks for your efforts...:encouragement:

[stansdds]

It's looking good!

[DC1973]

Speedbrakes ( spoilers ) now modeled and animated. These should bring her up short in a speed dive no problem at all! I chose to model them with the actual cavities in place rather than texture them in, as it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good and they're very prominent when deployed.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60934&stc=1

[Seahawk72s]

Superb..! Very scary looking.....

[RKinkor]

Wow! Looks Excellent!

[MustangL2W]

Sensational!!

[Sundog]

It's looking great! If you ever decide to make an A model, I highly recommend making B.G. Barnes personal P-61, which had the armament and RADAR removed and an extra fuel tank placed where the turret used to be.

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-61/gen-earl-barnes-personal-p-61a-13th-fighter-command-new-guinea-1944/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-61/p-61a-42-5531-personalized-for-gen-barnes-13th-fighter-command-1944/

[DC1973]

Great shots, Sundog, and a nice example of a rare bare-metal P-61! :)

[DC1973]

It's looking great! If you ever decide to make an A model, I highly recommend making B.G. Barnes personal P-61, which had the armament and RADAR removed and an extra fuel tank placed where the turret used to be.


Not quite the A-model, but a quick shot of the P-61C in bare metal. The scheme was from a converted test-bed P-61A contracted out to Goodyear Aircraft, Ohio, for fitment of the P-61C engines and designated as XP-61D. The spinners and cowling were in yellow, and she wore a large "791" number in black on the nose. I'll finish off the textures later when the bumps are complete along with the rest of the modelling.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60948&stc=1

[DC1973]

Test fitted the re-shaped virtual cockpit tonight. It seems as though the Widow's forward canopy sills are modeled a little too low so they'll have to move up a bit. Lots of re-shaping to do around the VC internally before it's servicable, and also Boolean out the oleo wheel bay entry port, before I can start adding details and tidying up. Grabbed this screenie, taken at dusk in FSX to check out how the textures are coming along. Bump maps need altering to match the gondola's shape a bit better and also to reach up to the top of the central section. I think it looks good so far in the low light though :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60966&stc=1

[WarHorse47]

Anything new to report?? Looking forward to this one. :bump:

[DC1973]

Anything new to report?? Looking forward to this one. :bump:


Amazing timing Warhorse - I've spent the last two weeks working on the cockpit framing, which has taken an age due to the number of polygons that needed to be built to join the inner and outer sections. Took a couple of images last night though and just got around to posting them now. The VC has a long way to go ( only a flat colour texture in place at the moment for the framing ) but the external model is much cleaner now, just some minor improvements left to go and I can crack on and finish the interior.

Still on target for a July BETA :encouragement:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61369&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61370&stc=1

[WarHorse47]

Super. Looking great. Thanks for the update. :encouragement:

[Priller]

I'm so looking forward to this!!

Priller

[simtech]

Dean, this is starting to shape up very nicely. Thank you for all of your hard work. This beast is beginning to look awesome. Looking forward to its debut.

[jankees]

just beautiful

[DC1973]

Thanks all! A last shot from a test flight I did an hour ago, just caught that glossy black metal at the right angle in Prepar3D :biggrin-new:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61386&stc=1

P.S. Jankees - paint kits will soon be available for both planes ( Reporter and Widow ) once both are released.

[falcon409]

She's a beauty!

[Sundog]

It's looking great! Thanks for the previews.

[DC1973]

I've got the cockpit interiors now fully aligned with the P-61C fuselage interior section, and also the oleo bay opening - entrance port all lined up and textured. There are still some stray polygons here and there on the canopy framing which I'll hopefully pick out over the coming days as I clean up and add extra details. The conversion is taking longer than I thought and so while the RO position in the rear of the airplane will be modeled I don't think I'll add the functionality that I'd planned for it ( although I will add a VC texture for additional instruments should others wish to add them, and include some radios etc ). Flying the airplane while aiming the guns from the RO position isn't, I don't think, something that folks will be planning on doing that often.

A few more days' work to go on the main cockpit section and then I'll be adding details and texturing before heading for the final furlong ( external schemes and TacPack / radar work ). Still on target for a release around the end of July if all continues as planned :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61519&stc=1

[txnetcop]

That is a true MASTERPIECE!
Ted

[docjohnson]

Man that looks good!

[DC1973]

Virtual cockpit interior now coming along nicely, although it's not as refined as Robert's P-61B. Instruments altered to accommodate the radar screen ( silver panel with test gauge ), more cleaning up of canopy framing completed and internal boarding ladder and door added and animated. Full steam ahead! :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61622&stc=1

[DC1973]

TacPack radar successfully installed into the P-61C for those night intercepts :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61710&stc=1

[Seahawk72s]

"DC1973 TacPack radar successfully installed into the P-61C for those night intercepts"

I am guessing the radar and housing will be in a fixed position...
Will the rest of the gauges on the VC panel be free of hard coded bezels so replacement gauges are an option.?
I'd really like to slip my 2D panel into the VC.

[SH427]

Once this enters beta, I'm not sure I'll be flying much else. Looks great! :encouragement:

[DC1973]

I am guessing the radar and housing will be in a fixed position...
Will the rest of the gauges on the VC panel be free of hard coded bezels so replacement gauges are an option.?
I'd really like to slip my 2D panel into the VC.

Yes, the radar housing is fixed but you will be able to overwrite the panel.cfg's reference bitmap and xml file to place your own radar in there. The 3D bezels remain but the one that caused the most problems, the big artificial horizon, has been removed. The rest of your gauges should slot into the bezels without issue.

[DC1973]

Once this enters beta, I'm not sure I'll be flying much else. Looks great! :encouragement:

Thanks! :)

[N2056]

I've been following Dean's work from the start, and it has been fun to watch his progress. While I enjoy my style of modeling there are times when I envy those that do not get so wrapped up in details, as they actually manage to get a plane done fairly quickly that really looks quite good. Well Done, Dean! :encouragement:

[warchild]

The beautiful thing for me is that all three 61 derivatives ( Rob's and Deans ) will be using the same basic flight model with only adjustments made for weight, drag and power to match their specific plane. In other words, you will have consistencies across the entirety of the three planes with variations due only too the design changes.. I'm not sure thatsever been done before..

Truth told, I feel very honoured to have been a catalyst for the development of all three of these aircraft, and am truly proud to have been a part of these teams..

[DC1973]

I've been following Dean's work from the start, and it has been fun to watch his progress. While I enjoy my style of modeling there are times when I envy those that do not get so wrapped up in details, as they actually manage to get a plane done fairly quickly that really looks quite good. Well Done, Dean! :encouragement:

Thanks Robert :)

It's been a long old learning process - 18 months, since starting 3D modelling from scratch, by the time the P-61C is released. I do like detail but I also like to move on to something new after a few months to keep the hobby fresh and interesting for me. Right now I'm looking forward to starting the Vought RF-8 Crusader in August - a clean sheet, lots of ideas and a year and a halfs' worth of experience behind me this time :biggrin-new:

[DC1973]

Truth told, I feel very honoured to have been a catalyst for the development of all three of these aircraft, and am truly proud to have been a part of these teams..

Wouldn't have gotten this far without you Pam :)

Another piccy, just because I'm getting excited now as the plane really starts to look the way it should. Prowling about at dusk...

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61770&stc=1

[jankees]

just beautiful

[DC1973]

A sight that I'd love to see in real life but probably never will - P-61C Moonlight Serenade flies again! :applause:

The textures have revealed some minor mapping issues on the rudders and cowl flaps but nothing too difficult to correct. Lots of modeling work being done in the Radar Operator position also, although this seat will have only basic functionality ( radar screen and radios ).

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61866&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61867&stc=1

[DC1973]

Latest shot, all crewed up, on the project's home run with details and final alterations with Mark and Pam's help and advice. Not long now... :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61951&stc=1

[MrZippy]

Looking real nice! I'll take 2 :ernaehrung004:

[edakridge]

The only P-61 that I have ever seen in real life was at the USAF museum in Dayton OH. I am not sure if there are any left flying.

[warchild]

MAAM is building their P-61 back to flight status.. But at a million dollars for an engine, they could use our help..

https://i.imgur.com/EbPICIa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zxG9GT9.jpg

[SH427]

:applouse: I will now begin my daily check of the downloads section for a beta! :P

[dharris]

Here is an interesting video of a P-61 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDUHjD0MLqY

[DC1973]

Here is an interesting video of a P-61 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDUHjD0MLqY

Great video! Nice to see some rare colour shots of the P-61 in service.

I'm beefing up the detail levels throughout the VC at the moment. The exterior model is pretty much complete, so it's all about extra realism in all three stations now in the cockpit so that folks have the best possible experience I can produce in the time I have left on the project. The RO station is now also fully operational after a bit more effort on my part.

[txnetcop]

You have no idea how incredible it is to see the Black Widow come to life with this kind of detail! Thank you...
Ted

[DC1973]

You have no idea how incredible it is to see the Black Widow come to life with this kind of detail! Thank you...
Ted

Thanks Ted! :)

A few quick shots of extra details now being added; piping and wiring etc will follow once the main details are in place.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62016&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62017&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62018&stc=1

[Seahawk72s]

Very impressive glass work...:encouragement:

[warchild]

There are many ways to land this plane, but the proper way, the way used by most pilots during WWII ( albeit in a P-61B ) was to glide down the runway, pull up into the vertical and execute either a hammerhead, or a chandelle. Thats because they didnt have thirty miles to slow down in like the manual suggested. This is rough, this is dirty and the sound is beyond horrible, for which i profusely apologize, but none the less, here is an example of a good and proper landing, for a P-61.
Pam


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tuobbsxC5o&t=38s

[Mario Donadon]

Amazing too beautiful

[roger-wilco-66]

This is from flight testing the FDE. You might want to watch it on Youtube in a large screen setting. The objective was to check the drag and weight coefficient. Approach the field with 300 KIAS, put throttle to idle, execute a chandelle maneuver (directed by air speed) and land without ever touching the throttle again.

This aircraft is really a joy to fly, not easy though. Pam is doing an exceptional job on the FDE, I must say.

Cheers,
Mark




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnvZKJ8Dx2w

[Seahawk72s]

There are many ways to land this plane, but the proper way, the way used by most pilots during WWII ( albeit in a P-61B ) was to glide down the runway, pull up into the vertical and execute either a hammerhead, or a chandelle.....

Is there an online reference that describes this necessity...?

[DC1973]

Is there an online reference that describes this necessity...?

I haven't been able to find one. I did find a single reference to a P-61 performing a chandelle as a braking aid prior to landing, however never with any vertical manoeuvres but the more standard climbing turn into the downwind familiar to most real-world pilots. I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I can see no tactical reason for doing so either as the risk of wing or tip-stall over an active airfield were the hammerhead manoeuvre to be performed incorrectly would produce obvious hazards, as does the initial pass presumably directly against the circuit pattern. Furthermore, rolling out off the top instead of a hammerhead would put the active field out of sight of the pilot, directly below the airplane, not something that would be done lightly without a good reason.

I suspect the P-61 ( and other aircraft ) chandelle was a precursor to the modern "run and break" pattern used by modern fighters to bring formations down swiftly while also performing a visual check of the runway condition. The chandelle manoeuvre was mostly used in air combat after an initial head-on merge, however the reverse of a chandelle, a 180-turn with constant descent, is also the military landing pattern and thus may well have been a reference for some airfield procedures.

[warchild]

it's all going to depend on how much of any given publication on the p-61 you can read online. The chandelles and following landings are mostly found in pilot stories and pireps and accident reports. The three different types of approved landings, can be found in the Pilots training manual. The ideal as presented in the manual was to take the thirty miles needed to slow down, then to either glide in, or land with power off or power on and dirty. Chandelles were "practiced" it seems by most pilots every day. It is singularly the most reported maneuver throughout all the publications. The hammerhead is a quick and dirty chandelle. it accomplishes the same thing: rapid speed reduction which facilitates landing. The reasons for these more rapid landings were multi-fold. Part of it was bragging rights. Like making a landing on a carrier, setting one of these planes down on a short runway, was not easy and using chandelles, added to the pilots prestige. the second reason was that these planes opperated in contested zones where a mile outside of the airbase was enemy heald, and a slow flying aircraft was little more than target practice for the enemy, so the planes had to make a fast approach, then slow down rapidly to land. This was especially present in the CBI theatre where japanese surrounded the majority of air bases scattered throughout china and burma.

The main problem with publications is that they arent cheap, and usually are quite skimpy though they provide a massive amount of relevant material, though you kind of have to ignore the repetitiveness of some of the data. There are several publishers, but the best source i have found is Amazon, where a quicj search through books for P-61 will unveil a plethora of different books available. Youll find these maneuvers as well as an incredibly rich history of the men who flew them, in there..

As a comparison for the reality these units existed in: When I landed at Camh Ran Bay in 1969, The Viet Cong walked mortars up the runway, trying to hit our plane which was a DC-8. Units stationed on small islands had it a tiny bit better and only had to deal with japanese patrol boats sitting off shore looking for target practice..

[Seahawk72s]

The flight manual has something to say about this...

[warchild]

The flight manual has something to say about this...

indeed, but the books and information are there. Combat doesnt give a crap about limitations. You do what you have to do to ensure survival. Trust me on that one.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=p-61+black+widow&sprefix=p-61%2Cinstant-video%2C250&crid=17Z9GGH0DWI0

http://www.flyingmandocumentary.com/ (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=p-61+black+widow&sprefix=p-61%2Cinstant-video%2C250&crid=17Z9GGH0DWI0)

[DC1973]

I have a copy of the first book in the Amazon list and use it for reference all the time. It's a complete history of the airplane and never mentions either chandelle or hammerhead approaches. That doesn't mean that they didn't happen if course but the hammerhead version breaks so many basic airmanship conventions both in peace time and war that I would be extremely surprised to find out that it was performed by pilots except in extreme circumstances. I'm certain that it would not have been routine practice. The chandelle seems far more likely.

[warchild]

I was saying they practiced chandelles..

[roger-wilco-66]

I only did the chandelle for FDE testing á la Hoover, not for historic reasons.

I have read numerous accounts of non-conform variants of approach patterns on fighter bases, one of them being the 180 degree landing which P47 Thunderbolt pilots used. This is certainly not a safe landing technique due to the high power settings that are required (if the engine misbehaves or quits during that you're toast), but was designed to get the fighters quickly to the ground and have them not roaming around the airfield in a vulnerable manner at low speed. There's a nice thread on the A2A forum about that and how to conduct it.



Cheers,
Mark

[warchild]

Also, if anyone is interested in how these planes were flown, who these men were and what they did, here's an exceptional place to start. Night Fighter, the memoirs of the crew of the P-61 Jing Bow Joy Ride .

http://www.nightfighter.us/

Also please allow me to recommend This book. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1855327252/qid=1152148495/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2733054-9097760?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[SH427]

Also, if anyone is interested in how these planes were flown, who these men were and what they did, here's an exceptional place to start. Night Fighter, the memoirs of the crew of the P-61 Jing Bow Joy Ride .

http://www.nightfighter.us/

Also please allow me to recommend This book. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1855327252/qid=1152148495/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2733054-9097760?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

dangit pam, now you got me all excited n' stuff :biggrin-new:

[dharris]

Another nice video while waiting for the "real" thing, this is looking fantastic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZtg29VNTHM

[warchild]

Another nice video while waiting for the "real" thing, this is looking fantastic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZtg29VNTHM

Excellent video. Poor guy confused a few P-38s for P-61s but it ewas none the less, quite well made and presented.. Thank you :)
Pam

[DC1973]

A minor update: I'm working on the interior enhancements but made an error and joined ( welded ) the interior to the exterior before applying texture maps. Fortunately I do have back-ups but it means repeating two days' work to weld the cabin sections again :( On the bright side, the cockpit looks much more "alive" now with 3D bolts in place. Interior textures will be of the chipped-paint variety for that worn look.

The P-61C release date is now August due to the set-back and my being away for a weekend ( when I usually get most modelling work done ) but everything is otherwise going to plan. I'll post here again when the cabin work is complete and I'm on the home run to the finish.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62212&stc=1

[warchild]

https://i.imgur.com/RiUtekj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1zr6bdi.jpg

[strykerpsg]

https://i.imgur.com/RiUtekj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1zr6bdi.jpg

Simply stunning piece of work. Thank you for all involved in making this project come to fruition.

[warchild]

https://i.imgur.com/auc2pZb.jpg

[MrZippy]

https://i.imgur.com/auc2pZb.jpg

It's looking fairly fantastic! You can drop one in my Sim, too!:very_drunk:

[warchild]

It's looking fairly fantastic! You can drop one in my Sim, too!:very_drunk:

Very soon now me thinks.. theres just one final FDE with one change on it to be tested. shouldnt take too long. maybe 2 minutes.. Once the team does that and gives the thumbs up, its ready to go..
What to look forward too..
A 2250 (2800 w/WEP ) base HP engine with a completely redesigned by Pratt and Whitney, Anti detonation system that lets the engine go to 73 in/Hg MP for aabout 20 minutes, but giving you a top speed of 430 MPH. A cruise speed of about 360 MPH. 150 MPH climbouts :LOL:: sorry about that, but thats all the plane could do.. No Nose wheel steering, though if people want to add it I am happy to explain how.
And those are the bad things. The good things???? Too many to mention. What can I say. It's a Northrop. It's a P-61. Mustang may have been the Cadillac of the skies, but this is the Rolls Royce. It maneuvers easily, trims easily, flies like a homesick angle and does everything but pour your coffee..
Oh and yeahhh, one last thing. Dont let an engine die below a thousand feet on takeoff. It'll ruin your whole day..










.

[MrZippy]

Oh and yeahhh, one last thing. Don't let an engine die below a thousand feet on takeoff. It'll ruin your whole day...

Glides like a brick?? I'm designating you for 2nd seat......How loud can you scream???:gameoff:

[stansdds]

I am continually amazed at the model making, texturing, and flight modelling talent that is featured at SOH. And all of this is offered for free to the flight sim community! I'm thinking about giving up on GA sim flying and just fly warbirds and vintage FSX aircraft. There is more than enough here to keep me busy for years. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[warchild]

I am continually amazed at the model making, texturing, and flight modelling talent that is featured at SOH. And all of this is offered for free to the flight sim community! I'm thinking about giving up on GA sim flying and just fly warbirds and vintage FSX aircraft. There is more than enough here to keep me busy for years. :applause: :applause: :applause:
Awwww.. Thanks Stan :).
Have you tried Flight 1's Citation Mustang yet??? That thing is just the sweetest little ball of fun. Worth checking out..

[warchild]

Glides like a brick?? I'm designating you for 2nd seat......How loud can you scream???:gameoff:

Nahhhh.. Glides like an overweight sea gull.. but your not going to reach full rpm till your at about a thousand feet and if you lose power, your toast..

[SH427]

Nahhhh.. Glides like an overweight sea gull.. but your not going to reach full rpm till your at about a thousand feet and if you lose power, your toast..

Wow, thats quite the takeoff then, do you have to slowly continue to feed power through the takeoff roll and on climb to reach full RPM? Why wouldn't you just keep toes on brakes until you get to max? or was that frowned upon :apthy:

[warchild]

I dont really have any answers for those questions.. I suppose you could stand on the brakes till it started pulling the plane, brakes and all, but in general, it's a slow engine to run up. Your prop weighs 800 pounds and the engine was originally used in the P-61B before they modified the anti detonation system. Plus, the plane weighs 29000 pounds. thats 2000 pounds more than the P-61B ( which is 7000 pounds more than a B-25 ) and yet we have only 2250 x2 HP ( same as the 61B ) to use for takeoff if you arent using your WEP. You can get it in the air at 90 MPH using full flaps sure, but you max speed with those is 175 mph. Also, you havent developed a whole lot of lift at takeoff..
Now, Normally, the P-61 series takes off at 110 MPH without flaps. Best rate of climb is 2300 fpm and best speed is 150 mph. If you lose anengine at that point, you cut your power in half and create a situation where there just isnt any lift on the wing with the dead engine, and although you can easily fly the P-61 series on only one engine, you have to recover from the stalled wing, and a thousanf feet simply isnt enough room to do that in at those speeds.
As for RPM?? ::shrugs:: Youve got a very heavy and big fighter with two heavy engines and heavy props trying to pull all that weight uphill.. even the takeoff roll is a matter of overcoming inertia, and theres a lot to overcome. Not even jets reach full N1/N2 on the takeoff roll, and the P-61 is far older technology..
Thats honestly the best i can come up with today. I hope it answers at least part of your question..
Pam

[SH427]

(snip)
Thats honestly the best i can come up with today. I hope it answers at least part of your question..
Pam

it does! looks like it will be worth some experimenting :D
I'm going to have a field day when it comes out, thinking about doing some repaints for nose art

[stansdds]

Awwww.. Thanks Stan :).
Have you tried Flight 1's Citation Mustang yet??? That thing is just the sweetest little ball of fun. Worth checking out..

No, I have not, I have not even transitioned to jets. Still plying the virtual skies with piston, and occasionally turbine, powered props. I spent quite a bit of time in Carenado's Seneca II, a little time in their Baron 58 and Navajo. I do have their King Air 200 and Citation 550S, but have not yet warmed up to either of them. I do like the Flysimware C402 as I can run passenger or freight charters with that aircraft. I recently bought the Captain Sim weather radar for FSX, so now I can fly it with a working wx radar.

[warchild]

awesome. and congrats on the radar. I want a weather radar for my copy of the P-61 but payday's next week and gods know if i'm intelligent enough to install it..
Now, I would hardly call the Mustang a jet.. A C-208 actually flies about 15 knots faster.. Cessna calls it an entry level jet. I would almost call it a civillian trainer. It's stable, gentle on the nerves, and has great short field characteristics. Takeoff is easy and landing is smooth as silk.. It literally is one of my all time favorite aircraft. I own it for FSX and X-Plane.. It's just too good to pass up.. :)

https://i.imgur.com/0wywStW.png

[DC1973]

All three Sim Outhouse Northrop birds on a dispersal at the same time: Robert's P-61B Black Widow, the P-61C Black Widow, and the RF-61C Reporter.

It was quite tricky to get all three airplanes in the same shot as they're quite large!

I'm back on track with the Widow model now, final touches going in and preparing for adding TacPack cannons for those that wish to use them. I've removed the instrument bezels from this version as some folks wanted to jiggle instruments about. The last piece of modeling I need to do is the slightly different rear seats and the binocular / night vision assembly that accompanied them. I think that I'll assign a visibility condition to these as they're quite bulky and will obscure the view from the cockpits, allowing users to remove them as and when they feel like it ( neither will be functioning in any way so they're purely for cosmetic realism ).


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62365&stc=1

[warchild]

Thats an awesome Pic.. Thank you :)
been wanting one for quite some time.. I guess you could say theyre my three babies.. Well, mine and Pauls :).. You and Robert gave them form and substance. Paul and I gave them a heart, breath and muscle ( Maybe a little too much here and there but heh, i'm old and senile and full of shenanigans. Allow an old fart their harmless amusement :) ).

Theres a new FDE in the usual place. I fixed some temps in it. The thunderstorm texture is also there.. People seem to have taken a liking too it round here.. yup..

[SH427]

wait, did I miss a moment when there was a "B" available?

[warchild]

Annnnd for everyones enjoyment. Perhaps maybe the first in sim tornado caught on film or rather bits and bytes..

https://i.imgur.com/z2VZ3TS.jpg

[DC1973]

wait, did I miss a moment when there was a "B" available?

The "B" model has been in development for some years but hasn't yet been released. Robert's got lots of projects on the go I think so he'll get around to finishing that one when he gets the time. It's a beautiful model :)

[DC1973]

OK folks, modelling on the P-61C is complete, external and interiors all done now and crewed up. Visibility conditions are in place for the crew also. I think it's a wrap - now for final texture adjustments, and TacPack files for the guns. The manual will also be updated from the Reporter's version to one specific to the P-61C, which had the same powerplant but very different weights and balances which Pam has expertly included in the updated FDE.

Some final images before the launch, hopefully in a week or two now. Enjoy the piccies :)

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62426&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62427&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62428&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62429&stc=1

[MrZippy]

It's looking real good! Are you including a can of paste wax to keep it shiny?:applause:

[Seahawk72s]

Exceptional work..!....:applause:

[strykerpsg]

OK folks, modelling on the P-61C is complete, external and interiors all done now and crewed up. Visibility conditions are in place for the crew also. I think it's a wrap - now for final texture adjustments, and TacPack files for the guns. The manual will also be updated from the Reporter's version to one specific to the P-61C, which had the same powerplant but very different weights and balances which Pam has expertly included in the updated FDE.

Some final images before the launch, hopefully in a week or two now. Enjoy the piccies :)


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62427&stc=1


Absolutely beautiful work indeed. Reminds me of my old Monogram 1/48 scale model from a long time ago. Question on the shot above, is that the sight for the turreted mount on top?

[DC1973]

Absolutely beautiful work indeed. Reminds me of my old Monogram 1/48 scale model from a long time ago. Question on the shot above, is that the sight for the turreted mount on top?

Yes, it's the gunner's sight, although for simplicity's sake the TacPack guns will be aligned with the pilot's own gunsight. If both line up by chance I'll be happy though :)

[DC1973]

So, she's finished :) Just writing the manual now and taking images to put in the pages. I know I said no more piccies here, but who doesn't like piccies eh? :jump:

Final colour schemes complete, paint kit will be uploaded separately for those who like to colour things in better than I can:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62523&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62524&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62525&stc=1

[Josh Patterson]

So, she's finished :) Just writing the manual now and taking images to put in the pages. I know I said no more piccies here, but who doesn't like piccies eh? :jump:

Final colour schemes complete, paint kit will be uploaded separately for those who like to colour things in better than I can:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62523&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62524&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62525&stc=1:applause:YIPPEE!!!

[jimjones]

I'm one of many eagerly waiting the Widow's release. The pics ease the anxiety of anticipation.

[Mario Donadon]

Your work is amazing, it impresses a lot.

[SH427]

I think its safe to say that my body is ready :encouragement:

[Fireball6]

Great work - looks absolut fantastic :jump:

All the Best

Dirk

[Shessi]

Hi Dean,
Absolutely outstanding work, just beautiful. Thank you.

What I also love about this is the fact that you've done it using FSDS 3.51, not Gmax or 3ds Max et al, proving there's a lot left in the ol' girl yet! :applause:

Cheers

Shessi

[DC1973]

Hi Dean,
Absolutely outstanding work, just beautiful. Thank you.

What I also love about this is the fact that you've done it using FSDS 3.51, not Gmax or 3ds Max et al, proving there's a lot left in the ol' girl yet! :applause:

Cheers

Shessi

Thanks Shessi ( and all ). Yeah, FSDS can still do great things. I'm sticking with it for a while yet :) Took another lucky shot earlier for the manual - rather them than me!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62597&stc=1

[Mario Donadon]

Thanks Shessi ( and all ). Yeah, FSDS can still do great things. I'm sticking with it for a while yet :) Took another lucky shot earlier for the manual - rather them than me!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62597&stc=1


is amazing, I model with FSDS a good time, always for FS2004, now I'm scouring it for FSX and Pd3, but its level is very high, heheh