Walk the plank

[gajit]

Lets hope they do not escape justice

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7892073.stm

[VFR Reviews]

Kill them!

Rip out their entrails, feed their toenails to their mothers! I HATE Pirates!

AND DO THE SAME THING TO ALL THE OTHER ")@#($%)#$(%!

[Warrant]

Good they detained them. I use torrents as well, but to download shared freeware Silent Hunter 3/4 mods. Lot of them are shared/published through bittorrent.
Would be ashame if this method of sharing is to be banned due to illegal use.

Hope justice is served right. Let them aggressively hunt down virus makers, hackers and the rest of those cyber terrorists as well :karate:

[MCDesigns]

Kill them!

Rip out their entrails, feed their toenails to their mothers! I HATE Pirates!

AND DO THE SAME THING TO ALL THE OTHER ")@#($%)#$(%!

AGREED! The punishment in that article is a complete joke. they need to take into account all the lost money from the people who have had their files stolen and the lack of morality from these guys and their users and THEN lock them in a hole and go after all the other sites like this!:tgun2::hatchet::violent:

Warrant, while I do know that torrents can be used for good uses, they are being used for bad use to such a degree that there has to be another way. I have used them a couple of time and feel they should not be used at all since it's obvious to many people can't be trusted to use them properly.

Then again, this is one of the arguements that unless it has directly affected a person (seen months of hard work pirated right after release), then you can't really understand the the frustration, hopelessness, pain and anger.

[stiz]

well if i rember rightly they won the last case, so dont get your hopes up yet folks

[Warrant]

Warrant, while I do know that torrents can be used for good uses, they are being used for bad use to such a degree that there has to be another way. I have used them a couple of time and feel they should not be used at all since it's obvious to many people can't be trusted to use them properly.

I see your point. The torrent system is much used for illegal stuff due to the type of system. There is no server with the illegal or legal stuff. All who download also upload, and therefore no particular server is needed. There a lot's of people who write mod's for games (such as Silent Hunter, one of my other fav sim's), who don't have neat sites and forums (like SOH for example), because there is either not enough animo, or no cash to pay for such a place. Mod's for bigger games (developed as freeware with SDK's from developers) sometimes run to large proportions (Gb's). The cheapest way to share with others is the one also used by pirates, sadly enough....torrents. The method is not wrong, it is how this method is misused as well. Hate it torrent sharing has such a bad name due to piracy, while the sharing system itself is rather brilliant. It is up to the honesty, integrity and maturity of the torrent user to not get involved in pirated stuff as well, and just use it for exchange of legal stuff.

[Lewis-A2A]

Torrents are a aownderful way to spread large files amongst a group of users. The technology behind torrents is brilliant.

The idea that it should be banned is beyond absurd.

Silent hunter MOD's are massive, CFS3 MAW mod was available through a torrent due to its size and thousands upon thousands of unsigned bands etc use them to release there own music.

Pirates are bad, but don't blame the technology as in this case it was never really designed to be used by Pirates.

[gajit]

Oh well - who cares then?

I have no vested interest in any developer but I feel that any site that acts as a gateway to obtain copyrite material for free is no better than a pimp or a pusher - but with torrents.

We moan if develpers charge serious money for their products but they must have to budget for quite a large percentage to write off the loss to piracy/theft.

[Warrant]

Oh well - who cares then?

I have no vested interest in any developer but I feel that any site that acts as a gateway to obtain copyrite material for free is no better than a pimp or a pusher - but with torrents.

We moan if develpers charge serious money for their products but they must have to budget for quite a large percentage to write off the loss to piracy/theft.

I totally agree with you regarding the piracy.
But people have the habit to condemn the means over the perpetrators.
I would really have a bad day if the torrents technique is banned. It would force good willing people to actually move to websites, and thus charge for software that was meant to be freeware. purely to cover the costs of a domain or website. Not all game communities are comparable to the flightsim ones. If i had a good solution or alternative to the false usage of torrents, i would be rich by now.

Again, i totally agree with your point made

[Henry]

Ill probably get shot for this:faint:
but its not the weapon that kills, its the user
torrents are are a good thing but they in the wrong hands
are evil
i do not believe in getting rid of guns nor torrents
but i hope these people get what they deserve
H

[MudMarine]

We all have a vested interest in every FS9/FSX developer. Without them what would our hobby be? How would a developer write in a percentage of loss into their products fee? Just guess-timate?

Pirates.........:karate::taekwondo::tgun2::Banane3 6: I only hope that someday a thief comes to their home and rips them off! Then they'll know how it feels to be a victim!

[CodyValkyrie]

Folks, let's remember what this site is named... The *******. What do you think they make, cornflakes? They are ASKING for this type of use, and they should be punished for it. I say they go the way of NAPSTER. They have the ability to control what goes on through their system, therefor they should be punished for taking no steps to account for it. GoDaddy is another service which falls in my opinion in the same catagory. The SOBs ALLOW many known pirating sites to operate on their servers, however they do very little about it.

[Bjoern]

You guys seem to be almost running amok over a small issue.
I wonder what you will be like when the really touchy subjects come up...

[MCDesigns]

You guys seem to be almost running amok over a small issue.
I wonder what you will be like when the really touchy subjects come up...

But it's not a small issue to someone that spent considerable amount of time on a project only to have it stolen. It's people that don't take it seriously, look the other way, justify why/how it happened that allow it to continue.

The only reason it's a big deal for me is I have had it happen to me and people I know and I/we would gladly like to see these guys disappear for good.

[Rezabrya]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?

[war.ace]

I now only use torrents to download demos or those free games

[MudMarine]

Small issue......? Stealing isn't a small issue! Try to make a living and feed your family then have someone steal your hard work. I'm sure it wouldn't be seen as a "small" issue then.

[MudMarine]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?


So your time isn't worth anything? Developers are artists. They paint a picture with a computer and spend a lot of time doing it. It's a business and time is money. It's more than a file. I'd have to say, put yourself in their position then see if it's only a file. Just some thoughts to consider.

[N2056]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?

Oh man...where shall I shoot first?

I guess unless you actually spent hundreds of hours learning how to use Gmax (or any of the other programs)...and the artwork program...followed by a whole lot more hours learning the SDK...oh, then there are those gauges that need to be made, and a plausible flight model...and don't forget that you need to optimize all of this stuff to try to work well on every computer on the planet even though all along you know that is a losing battle...:173go1:

Actually, let's just say it like this...until you have put many hundreds of hours of your time into developing a plane from scratch only to discover that you are losing profit from this sort of BS I guess you'll never get it. It has happened to me, and it has happened to others I know. I hope those guys get sunk!

Just to get an idea of what can be at stake, development costs on a high end add-on payware plane can easily run into thousands of dollars. If that was your money or huge amount (talking months/years) of time on the line how would you feel when you find it being given away & you can't do a d--- thing to stop it?

[Lionheart]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?

Ok.. good question......


I make them (FS planes) for a living.. almost a one man team.. Now and then I hire on a person to help me with parts..


I work for months making a plane. I pay people to help me, be it through monthly royalty payments or down payment, or both...

I work day and night on a project, like a writer making a book.. when I say day and night, I can mean from 8AM till 2 or 4 in the morning. Sometimes that is daily.....


To find out, after 10 months of work on the Epic LT, that thousands of stolen copies are freely distributed by cons and thiefs.. I am pretty upset.



If MS, Apple, some small guy that worked his heart out on something, was seeing their stuff being 'given away' on a specific website designed for stealing, you cannot wonder why he would be upset...



Deep hole.... Very deep......




Bill

[Rezabrya]

As I said folks...I am not encouraging or even slamming anybody. I was just curious as to why people say they lose money on pirating. Since it doesn't take any money to make on your poart (unless you hire somebody to help you) any money you make will be a profit. I am sorry if I offended anybody and I am completely on your side on this one.

[N2056]

Hey, that is true...but it becomes an issue of what your time is worth. That is a thing that is ultimately up to the individual doing the work.

No hard feelings :wavey:

[Lewis-A2A]

Raptor it depends.

Scott uses super high quality recording equipment for visual and sound,.. plus the expense of arranging and going to meet the people/planes in question, ive been about abit and Scotts travelled all over the US.

Then you need a modeller, skinner, coder, contractors for various bits and bobs, website, large domain, online store setup, large webspace for staorage of files, advertsing, electricity bills shoot up as pc's are on, multiple pc's for test beds, windows OS'es, international calls etc etc etc etc.

Its easy to see how the money builds up, esp if your working full time on it.

[MudMarine]

To me it couldn't be anymore simple........they're stealing something that doesn't belong to them. No money?...........I guess the computer and programs a developer uses for his project are free; that's just the begining. It's business 101. Sounds like the logic a pirate would use to justify their criminal/immoral act. Or socialist logic; everything belongs to "the people". What exactly is (Poart)?

[CBris]

...veeeeerrryyy deeeep hole raptor.

An artist gets paid for performing. Be it exhibition fees, song royalties, book royalties...

Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies...

...or even Electronic arts to make loads of copies.

But the answer is the same whichever way you look at it - it is theft. Using a product without permission from the owner/maker/author/artist (that's what you get when you pay for it)

It's the same as buying a car. The raw materials for a Ford may only cost a fraction of the showroom price. You are also paying for the time put into it by the workers on the shop floor, the car sales reps, the managers, the factory cleaners...

Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.

[CodyValkyrie]

I know of certain products who have had their products pirated so prolifically, they are seriously considering walking away from the industry and moving into areas that their talents would best be served for monetarily wise. Trust me when I say that every developer is concerned to some degree of pirating.

I myself have spent an insurmountable time trying to shut down some of these sites. There is an ongoing undergrowth of movement from developers to put some of these guys in their places. Hopefully through combined force we can come to some conclusive answers to help stem the tide. Like the drug was, most of these things will never end, however, allowing said people to operate so overtly only serves to make the honest man NOT honest.

[Bjoern]

The whole piracy issue is a generational thing. All of the prople I know who are about my age have more or less "blood" on their hands. No exceptions.

Maybe if you're growing up with access to everything the internet has to offer, you're seeing certain things a bit differently. Everybody else does it, it is relatively easy to get your hands on stuff and you've started doing this at an age where the hole in your wallet coupled with the desire to have this or that new cool bunch of 0s and 1s far outweighed any fear of undesired, legal or moral consequences. And when you start young and always got away with it, your attitude won't change much when you get older.

Yet, this is strikingly similar to other historical disagreements between generations. See rock 'n roll. Older people: "Devil's music; corrupts morality, etc..." Younger people: "Hell yeah! Now where'd I put my Rolling Stones CD?!" Or computers in the 70s and 80s. Older people: "Get away from that screen! Back in my days, I...blahblah...outside....baseball...blah..." Younger people: "Must...kill...dragon...*click* *click* *click*..."
Of course, those two examples don't include the criminal element of e-piracy (unless the " 'Stones" fan and the gamer were drug addicts), but you get the idea.

E-piracy is, as I've mentioned, considered a criminal act in most countries (it's in the "blind spot" in others), yet the estimated ratio between acts of piracy and convictions is ridiculously high (one trial for every brazillion downloads or so). The few trials that are made public and pushed in the media plus the few hundred letters from lawyers suing people in the name of companies is just for the "shock" effect. If e-piracy was *really* taken seriously, you would have about one fourth of every country's population in jail or deepest poverty by now for something the rest of the population doesn't even understand.

Similar applies to this TPB trail. It's more of a show than anything. Chop off the one head of the Hydra that is the easiest to fight. In this case, the site that basically hosts information about where to get e-stuff.
But, just like it's mythical greek conterpart, the e-piracy Hydra has countless heads which can grow anew at will.
To quote an excellent movie: "You can't stop the signal."


My take, now shoot me.

[CodyValkyrie]

Listen, I think we all know that stopping piracy is just simply nothing that is ever going to happen, or at least anytime soon. Most companies accept that. They take their own measures to simply make it harder for regular folks to gain access to their software, leaving only the very adept folks cracking their wares. What gets folks like me in a fitting rage is the websites that advertise overtly on the subject. Many of us know who they are. Names are spoken of individuals that do it. "The Pirate Bay" inherently has the word "Pirate" in its name.

For us as a society to allow by and large operations to continue so overtly makes it that much more of an acceptable practice. Just the same as locking your door doesn't necessarily keep someone from robbing your house, it might the same keep your gardner from having that temptation.

I would prefer if such sites were simply scattered to the wind and force the users underground. I shouldn't be able to search for an FS addon on Google and gets tens of websites offering torrents of that product. It isn't a hard concept. Make it difficult for folks to pirate and less people will do it. I find that a very acceptable solution for the time being. As I said earlier, keep the honest man honest.

The issue many here in the community however have is that because of the rather small development funds that we have for our products, we cannot sustain the price of creating effective anti-piracy software. Normally I don't like nor find a solution provided by a government as a good measure, but the ability for us to persue people who allow such things to proliferate would give us smaller developers the tools to approach and react to such issues in a legitimate manner. Everything takes money, including class action suits. As it is, this is really are only defense against such acts. When you are barely scraping by, this is often hardly a viable solution.

I don't think anyone with a proper working mind would disagree with my statements, at least in large. We can agree that piracy is not a good thing, and we shouldn't condone the act. Many companies are on the verge of simply walking away from this hobby... it would be a shame to see more companies like PSS fall to the pirates. Amazing companies simply taking their toys and playing in another sandbox. Nobody wants that.

[fsafranek]

You're absolutely right Bjoern about the generations. The generation who worked for everything they had and the instant gratification generation (what letter are we up to now?) who have always had everything at their fingertips.

The honest truth is that anyone who downloads from a pirate site was never going to pay anyway so we (I'm one of you) haven't really lost anything -- we were never going to see it anyway. But if we do this with the intent of making some extra money at the end of the month it has a huge impact on motivation to continue.

As far as money going in, as a painter you need good reference materials. If you don't already have it (been an airplane freak for 40+ years that I'm aware of, the first few don't count, so I already have a lot) and you can't find reliable sources on the Internet, then you have to buy it -- I've always refused to paint make believe or half researched subjects in any payware project I'm paid to do. Unlike a modeler (he also has need for reliable reference materials) you can't use the same purchased reference materials for each project the way you can the development software. Therefore you can't spread the cost out over several projects. Add to this that being on a team means that you have to share a piece of the proceeds. The distributor takes a cut just for using their name and (sometimes) services, the modeler takes a cut, the panel guy takes a cut, the sound guy takes a cut, the effects guy takes a cut, and the texture guy takes a cut. Beginning to see why some companies charge a lot yet?

So the pie gets sliced into some pretty thin pieces for some of the folks involved. It takes a lot of time to do it right and you're never really done. If it doesn't sell well then you end up working for pennies per hour. So when you pour yourself into it and it only sells a couple hundred copies but it gets downloaded from the Torrent sites a few thousand times you feel it like no one else can appreciate.

If not a deep hole then a few thousand hours of public service picking up trash along the roads on their days off.
:ernae:

[fsafranek]

What exactly is (Poart)?
part

[ICDP]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?

Hi Raptor,

It is a big investment in both money and time to develop a payware addons for FSX. For example I started working on the textures for the A2A WoP3 P-47 on 24th Aug 2008. I finished working on the textures and paintkit on 3rd Feb 2009. In that time I would frequently work until 2:00AM and at weekends I would frequently work on the textures for approximately 10 hours per day. As an estimate I would say the total amount of hours I worked on the on the P-47 textures would be around 250-300.

Thankfully I have a full time and well paid job so I don't go broke if the P-47D does not sell well. Other members of the A2A team are not so fortunate. They absolutely rely upon the success of each release and higher sales equals more income to pay the bills. If the latest payware release is easily available for download from pirate sites then this is potential for lost sales and therefore lost income.

Try to remember that a payware developer still has to pay wages to their employees for their work. There are texturing artists, 3D artists, sound recording people, gauge developers and of course FM writers to be paid for each payware addon. Sometimes one person does many roles to save on costs. Also the infrastructure such as web sites, servers and so on cost a lot of money. If addons does not sell well then these people will still want paid. It can take many weeks of sales for the developer just to break even on the outlay they have spent on a single addon. So when a development team spends spends thousands of dollars and thousands of combined hours over many months developing a payware addon it is very upsetting to see their work made illegally available for free.

I hope this helps make the anger some payware developers feel clearer.

[n4gix]

I am most likely going to be shunned for asking this but I am really wondering. Besides the initial cost of buying a program to develop these planes (with the exception of gmax) what kind of money do you put into your products? I mean ya you put time into them and all that but is there actually any money involved? Basically you aren't lsing any money by these "pirates" stealing your products. I understand why you would be angry and i in no way promote pirating but i have been wondering why this is such a sore subject. When it comes down to it they are all just files aren't they?

You won't "get it" until you begin to grasp the relationship between the economic concepts called "Time Value of Money" and "Opportunity Costs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

These are rather advanced concepts, but I'll briefly attempt to draw out the most essential relevant concepts as they relate to the issue of third-party content creation for flightsims. But, please do keep in mind that this represents a gross oversimplification... :whistle:

Beginning with the concept of "opportunity cost," consider that everyone must make a decision on how to spend their time.

As a 3d modeler and gauge systems programmer, I have to decide whether the best use of my time is to work on "speculation" (that is, invest my time for some potential future income based on sales), or if I should be a wage-slave for some company, thereby earning a steady and predictable paycheck as well as possible other benefits, such as health insurance, employer 401k retirement contributions, et cetera.

As I consider each option, one of the tools I can use is the concept of "time value of money." That is, given an investment of X hours in either scenario, which of the two will ultimately result in higher earnings over a period of time.

With a fixed, wage-slave use of my time, it is quite easy to forecast a reasonably good approximation of my yearly net-net, because a lot of reliable data is available to support such a calculation.

In the case of an independent, future earnings based model, such as I'm currently engaged in, it is far more difficult to calculate such a number. A large part of the "final answer" is predicated on quite a few "guesses" on the values involved.

In short then:

An investment of X hours gives me the opportunity to earn a value of Y dollars over a period of Z time.

Working as a wage-slave the investment of 2000 hours/year at $20/hour + benefits will equal some calculable number net-net disposable income, which for sake of example we'll call $45,000 (after taxes).

Now, I need to guesstimate what the potential net-net income from independent work will yield given the same investment of time over the same one year period. What I have to do in this case is work backwards, assuming that I desire to at least equal the same net-net income, and then calculate the number of sales that will be required to achieve that goal. Obviously, there is a large element of risk involved, since I'm working with so many unknowns!

It's the difference between the two calculations which determines the dollar value of what is termed "opportunity cost." Whether I wish to pay that cost is yet another decision I must make, which is of course always purely subjective, based as it is on such indeterminate notions as whether I enjoy what I do as an independent contractor versus being a wage-slave.

Where all this ties into the topic of "piracy" is that each such act potentially adds to my total "opportunity costs" because it represents an unrealized sale, hence "loss of income."

The reality is that there is also another unknown factor at work here, and that is simply this: does each act of "piracy" really equal a "lost sale?"

I believe an honest answer is no. There are without doubt a large number of such individuals who would not have purchased my product at any price. For the sake of my own internal calculations I'm assuming at best that perhaps five percent of all "pirated" downloads represents an actual "lost sale." Even at that conservative guesstimate, it does represent a large number, all things considered.

Finally, let me provide some "real numbers" as a basis of comparison. For the fiscal year 2008, I've already established the value net-net as a wage-slave. Here this is the actual comparison between what what could-have-been versus what actually transpired:

1) wage-slave = $45,000
2) independent = $14,100

Therefore, my opportunity cost was $30,900

...and people think we do this for the money! :faint:

[Rezabrya]

yes guys i understand that the dev's hate it and a lot of other people do too but here are the facts. Piracy will never stop and there is nothing you can do about it. I think rather than think of all the pirates stealing their products, dev's should think of all the people that do buy their product when they could so easily get it for free. Everybody here has the potential of pirating but we choose not to because we want to support the dev's and do the right thing. The saying "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" come sinto play here. We could all easily go out and pirate the products but we don't and I think dev's should be happy that they have customers. Now i'm going to get yelled at agin but that is how i feel.

[hinch]

It will be good to see if the website gets stopped. I'm all for a completely free internet but not at the cost of others. While the site itself is not illegal because they are not responsible for content - Google could be accused of the same at a push - the site actively promotes a very illegal habit that is all too easy to do. I'm testing Opera 10 and it has a torrent client included so it's no different to just clicking 'download'.

Then there is the issue of The Pirate Bay being only one of many...

As for torrents being a valid way of getting media around I think I've only ever seen about two websites use the technique to distribute large files and only FS project. The technique has such a bad reputation even if it isn't intended.

[CodyValkyrie]

yes guys i understand that the dev's hate it and a lot of other people do too but here are the facts. Piracy will never stop and there is nothing you can do about it. I think rather than think of all the pirates stealing their products, dev's should think of all the people that do buy their product when they could so easily get it for free. Everybody here has the potential of pirating but we choose not to because we want to support the dev's and do the right thing. The saying "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" come sinto play here. We could all easily go out and pirate the products but we don't and I think dev's should be happy that they have customers. Now i'm going to get yelled at agin but that is how i feel.
I addressed this in my posts. Of course piracy will never end. I don't think anyone believes otherwise. That is just the reality of it.

What strikes me is that we as devs should be thankful that people are paying for it. That to me is a load. That's like saying to a victim "well, at least they didn't rape you after they buglarized your house." Sure, obviously a much harsher example of immorality, but nonetheless the irony is so thick you can swim in it.

Just being "thankful" that people didn't pirate software I have had a hand in a flawed thought. I think the people that pirate should be thankful that we have not prosecuted them, and the people that helped distribute it... yet.

I would like to say personally, that you fine folks need to start sticking up for development teams on your own terms. Many of us are struggling as it is, especially if this is our sole income. Please make an effort to pay for software you want, and encourage those that you know who do not,do the morally correct thing. At the end of the day, even some of the largest and your most favorite developers may not be able to continue supporting products and developing further if we can no longer make a profit. We have families to feed. I don't work two full time jobs for no reason....

[fsafranek]

yes guys i understand that the dev's hate it and a lot of other people do too but here are the facts. Piracy will never stop and there is nothing you can do about it. I think rather than think of all the pirates stealing their products, dev's should think of all the people that do buy their product when they could so easily get it for free. Everybody here has the potential of pirating but we choose not to because we want to support the dev's and do the right thing. The saying "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" come sinto play here. We could all easily go out and pirate the products but we don't and I think dev's should be happy that they have customers. Now i'm going to get yelled at agin but that is how i feel.
You're absolutely right. All we can do is invest additional time into making it not worth their while to not have paid for copies.
:ernae:

[war.ace]

that's one site down, what about mininova?

[CodyValkyrie]

All we can do is invest additional time into making it not worth their while to not have paid for copies.
:ernae:
For the most part, I find that true. There is still alternative progress to be made by certain forces acting on our behalf out there. If that wasn't true, The Pirate Bay wouldn't be going to court. We can also legally take legal issues into our own hands...

[CodyValkyrie]

You know, I was just thinking. Part of what I find issue with, with a lot of the sites that say "it is not their problem" is them turning a blind eye to the action itself. That is akin to a parent of a bad child who lies cheats and steals and says "I cannot control what he/she does." The point is, it is THEIR service, therefor they should be held legally responsible for the content to a point.

[tigisfat]

The honest truth is that anyone who downloads from a pirate site was never going to pay anyway so we (I'm one of you) haven't really lost anything -- we were never going to see it anyway. But if we do this with the intent of making some extra money at the end of the month it has a huge impact on motivation to continue.

Thank you. Very few people are willing to speak the truth because these threads get out of hand. I can surely understand the frustration of someone who sees something they sell go for free, but that's all it is; frustration. Don't be mistaken; everyone involved stole something, but I believe in the theory that the number of copies pirated X price doesn't equal losses, nor can one adjust pricing to compensate for losees.

Part of being in a society that encourages such free thinking as creating and supporting a MSFS small business is accepting people like the pirate bay people as a fact of life. I strongly believe in personal freedoms; if we punish 'enabling' a crime then where do we stop?

[tigisfat]

.......edited.

[PRB]

Every time this subject comes up I want to go on a rant, but I’ll won’t because there is no good reason to do so. I’ll just say this:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Stealing is illegal and immoral, but anything can be made illegal by governments. In their zeal to stop pirating of software and music, activities are being made illegal that didn’t use to be illegal.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

… Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies... <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
That’s a good analogy. So, public libraries should be shut down, then, and all librarians arrested because anyone can sit there are read JK Rowling books all day without paying for them. How does that not fall under the definition of "pirating" these days?
<o:p></o:p>

Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Right, and “Illegal and unauthorized” now = making a backup copy for yourself. That makes me a “criminal.” Where does this end?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
That’s my only problem with all the posts suggesting these people should be killed.

[ICDP]

I have never believed that an illegal download equals a lost sale. There are many pirates out there who would never pay for software or addons despite the cost. What is a potential lost sale are the people who would gladly pay for an addon if the illegal download was not so easily available.

It is incredibly naive and narrow minded to assume or argue that every illegal download is a lost sale. On the other hand it is also incredibly naive and narrow minded to argue that every illegal download was never going to be a sale. The truth is if it wasn't so easy to find illegal payware on a torrent site the number of potential sales would increase. Not dramatically, maybe as low as 10 or 15% at best, but it would still be a welcome increase.

As an example years ago I had many friends who would purchase all of their Amiga games from a local pirate. When the pirate was caught and this source was removed my friends were left with no alternative but to purchase original games between them and share. The only reason they used the pirate was because he made games easily and cheaply available. The point is that without the temptation and lure of cheap easily available and illegal alternatives the only other option is to purchase the original. Not everyone will do this but many certainly would.

[MudMarine]

Copyright ='s ownership. No matter what it maybe if it's taken/downloaded/shared illegally it's stealing. Stealing ='s lost profit. That doesn't seem naive to me; it seems like the law.

PRB, I don't think anyone would actually kill someone over piracy. Seem's to me like some venting going on. Basic human over re-action.

[Rezabrya]

I understand all this but I am just saying. Although it sucks for the dev to spend all that time on a product just to have it pirated, It is never going to stop. They should be thankful that they do have loyal customers since they could so easily pirate it. If you hate pirating that much you should stop developing planes because whatever you do, it will be pirated. Just know that the loyal customers will miss your work if you do leave. And to whoever said that dev's shouldn't be happy that they DO have customers, you are very very wrong. The day a dev stops appreciating my money is the day i stop buying from them. They should be thankful they are getting a sale. Not just sitting in a corner moaning about how people ARE pirating it because nothing will ever change that.

[N2056]

I'm not even going to try & figure that one out...:isadizzy:

[hews500d]

Me neither....

Darrell

[CBris]

Every time this subject comes up I want to go on a rant, but I’ll won’t because there is no good reason to do so. I’ll just say this:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Stealing is illegal and immoral, but anything can be made illegal by governments. In their zeal to stop pirating of software and music, activities are being made illegal that didn’t use to be illegal.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by CBris http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/soh/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=116311#post116311)
… Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies...
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
That’s a good analogy. So, public libraries should be shut down, then, and all librarians arrested because anyone can sit there are read JK Rowling books all day without paying for them. How does that not fall under the definition of "pirating" these days?
<o:p></o:p>
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by CBris http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/soh/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=116311#post116311)
Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Right, and “Illegal and unauthorized” now = making a backup copy for yourself. That makes me a “criminal.” Where does this end?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
That’s my only problem with all the posts suggesting these people should be killed.


Interesting views, but...

a. Public libraries pay for the right to allow public reading of copyrighted products. The (c) owners are reimbursed.

b. The private backup copy has been and still is a long discussion that is a separate entity in its own right. It'll probably never get answered satisfactorily.

c. This subject is picking up a lot of intensity right now in several fora. It won't cure the situation, but it lets a few of us onto our soapboxes...

[ICDP]

I understand all this but I am just saying. Although it sucks for the dev to spend all that time on a product just to have it pirated, It is never going to stop. They should be thankful that they do have loyal customers since they could so easily pirate it. If you hate pirating that much you should stop developing planes because whatever you do, it will be pirated. Just know that the loyal customers will miss your work if you do leave. And to whoever said that dev's shouldn't be happy that they DO have customers, you are very very wrong. The day a dev stops appreciating my money is the day i stop buying from them. They should be thankful they are getting a sale. Not just sitting in a corner moaning about how people ARE pirating it because nothing will ever change that.

You keep claiming to understanding what has been said here, are you sure you do? Many of us have already answered this point over and over yet you still keep repeating it. I will answer it one more time...

Not one single post here disagreed with your point that piracy will NEVER EVER go away. We know we have paying customers and we do appreciate them, if they didn't exist payware would not exist. We are not sitting in a corner moaning about "all those lost sales". We are referring to the fact that it is a simple case of doing a quick internet search to find illegal copies of our payware addons. After one single search in piratebay I found hundreds of illegal torrents for FSX payware addons. If this easily available source (and other like it) were to be removed It would make it harder for people to find illegal downloads. I know from experience that many people know of no other way to get illegal downloads other than torrents.

So to recap.

1. This thread was started to debate the fact that the piratebay are on trial. Any responses I have given are in relation to this.

1. We agree that piracy will never go away. Your argument that "piracy will never go away" does not mean nothing should be done to stop it.

2. We respect our paying customers and always will. We always offer advice and try to help them with problems and listen to their criticisms.

3. What we are arguing for is the removal of such an easy source for illegal downloading of payware addons or other software.

[CodyValkyrie]

Well put ICDP.

[Mithrin]

It doesn't feel like stealing when you look at your monitor, click on a linky and start and finish a download. During this process you'll never have to look around for security cams, the shop owner or other customers. You don't have to hide anything in your pockets or any place else. The 'abstract' internet environment itself makes that a lot of people that would never steal from a shop, will now without hesitation download something illegal.

I think that basically means that most developers are screwed and should focus their main attention on making it highly appealing to buy something, rather than trying to spend a lot of time hunting down anyone who downloads illegal stuff.

DLC, if used properly and if appealing enough to the customer is an example of this. Small additions to a game, for a small fee.

As for TPB. We'll see. It won't help, no matter the outcome. A trial like this in the best case may make the life of those owners a bit more miserable but it won't change the attitude of the downloaders even a single bit. For that you'll have to find a way to reach them and I simply wouldn't know how to make that work. Can't say I have thought about it that much either though.

I guess that's my opinion. :typing:

[Francois]

If you hate pirating that much you should stop developing planes because whatever you do, it will be pirated. Just know that the loyal customers will miss your work if you do leave. And to whoever said that dev's shouldn't be happy that they DO have customers, you are very very wrong. The day a dev stops appreciating my money is the day i stop buying from them.


So, please please please, do NOT buy my products then !


I am running this discussion on the simFlight news page, and I've read the reactions here too.
Just wondering if 'I' am the one living on a different planet or some of the 'opponents' are.
I have seen some unbelievable (to me) ways of arguing this topic, some bordering on sheer stupidity.

I for the life of me can not understand which part of the act of STEALING is legit. And whether or not I really 'miss' a sale because of an illegal copy, how does that copying suddenly is NOT illegal?

Also, which part of the name PIRATE Bay is not clear to some?
Sheez, folks..... go sit in a dark corner for a while, scratch your head, ask someone for professional help and then come back in a few days.... :173go1:

I think my fellow developers and publishers have answered it all already, in a very reasonable way. There can be no discussion on whether or not the PB are involved in purposefully criminal acts, making money of software they do not own and have no licenses for. And personally I don't care for legal technicalities, nor for smart lawyers. PB is braking the law, making money off other people's backs without reimbursing them and hence should pay up.


The other thing that amazes me is the apparent lack of insight in the enormous amount of work that goes into developing add-ons, and the relatively low pay-back for these efforts and, yes, investments. Most developers are one-man bands, sometimes with a regular income on the side, but often not! Either way, they spend enormous amounts of time to bring you these products and I am pretty certain that the critics would balk at the resulting hourly wages, if they'd be offered tolive from those.


Now, my personal method of battling piracy is indeed to deliver not only stellar products, but also stellar support, an open ear for any customer and a constant present in various customer communities.
That's the only way to continue selling.
That does however NOT mean that it then is 'okay' for the likes of PB to copy whatever we make and publish and I sure as hell don't have to agree with them...... or with any 'customer' who thinks I should !


And to the guy quoted above: you don't seem to understand that people WILL stop developing out of sheer frustration with remarks and actions like that, hence my remark that piracy IS hurting YOUR hobby (and mine).

Sure, the only way to stop piracy of FS add-ons is to make sure none get developed anymore...... I suppose then THAT is what you want? Making you the customer we don't need :faint:

Have a good one.

[n4gix]

Most developers are one-man bands, sometimes with a regular income on the side, but often not! Either way, they spend enormous amounts of time to bring you these products and I am pretty certain that the critics would balk at the resulting hourly wages, if they'd be offered tolive from those.

Thank you, Francois! I'm sitting here at the moment shaking my head in dismay, while gazing through glassy eyes at my pitiful $553 commision check from last month. Let's see, even if I figured that at only 40hrs/week, that comes to about $3/hr. :faint:

I'm physically disabled just enough to not be employable, but not quite enough to qualify for Social Security Disability. I have two more years before I can apply for SS "retirement benefits" (assuming there's anything left in the government's accounts by then)...

[Kiwikat]

The other thing that amazes me is the apparent lack of insight in the enormous amount of work that goes into developing add-ons, and the relatively low pay-back for these efforts and, yes, investments. Most developers are one-man bands, sometimes with a regular income on the side, but often not! Either way, they spend enormous amounts of time to bring you these products and I am pretty certain that the critics would balk at the resulting hourly wages, if they'd be offered tolive from those.

Well said. Someone who hasn't been on a beta team or who hasn't seen what goes into it can't know what goes on. I think it would be neat if a developer made a development public. Kind of show progress shots from the very beginning.

Just a thought... :kilroy:

[CodyValkyrie]

Someone just the other day talked to me about making an anti-piracy video/documentary. I am seriously considering taking up that challenge if only to persuade a few minds.

[Mathias]

There can't be a better promo for pirate bay than this very thread.:karate:

[Warrant]

Someone just the other day talked to me about making an anti-piracy video/documentary. I am seriously considering taking up that challenge if only to persuade a few minds.
I would definitely encourage that, good gesture :applause:

[Mickey D]

Thank you. Very few people are willing to speak the truth because these threads get out of hand. I can surely understand the frustration of someone who sees something they sell go for free, but that's all it is; frustration. Don't be mistaken; everyone involved stole something, but I believe in the theory that the number of copies pirated X price doesn't equal losses, nor can one adjust pricing to compensate for losees.

Part of being in a society that encourages such free thinking as creating and supporting a MSFS small business is accepting people like the pirate bay people as a fact of life. I strongly believe in personal freedoms; if we punish 'enabling' a crime then where do we stop?

Frank knows my views well and I mostly agree with him. The a***holes who steal our work wouldn't part with the smell of their own s**t let alone pay for software. It's probably not wholly true that we lose nothing to such as TPB. If peer to peer sharing was not an option then more would have to buy if only to send copies to their mates.
Tigisfat! We devs can't just sit back and allow these people to steal our work and I for one will work hard to get each download stopped if it's only to p*ss off uploaders. Free thinking and personal freedom does not equate to theft in any civilised society and to do nothing is to condone it.

[Bjoern]

It doesn't feel like stealing when you look at your monitor, click on a linky and start and finish a download. During this process you'll never have to look around for security cams, the shop owner or other customers. You don't have to hide anything in your pockets or any place else. The 'abstract' internet environment itself makes that a lot of people that would never steal from a shop, will now without hesitation download something illegal.

I think that basically means that most developers are screwed and should focus their main attention on making it highly appealing to buy something, rather than trying to spend a lot of time hunting down anyone who downloads illegal stuff.

DLC, if used properly and if appealing enough to the customer is an example of this. Small additions to a game, for a small fee.

As for TPB. We'll see. It won't help, no matter the outcome. A trial like this in the best case may make the life of those owners a bit more miserable but it won't change the attitude of the downloaders even a single bit. For that you'll have to find a way to reach them and I simply wouldn't know how to make that work. Can't say I have thought about it that much either though.

I guess that's my opinion. :typing:

Very well said.




There can't be a better promo for pirate bay than this very thread.:karate:

Yes, there can. Their trial all over the media. ;) :d

[Bjoern]

http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-ends-first-trial-week-partying-090221/

:monkies:

*Chuckle*

[n4gix]

What a bunch of self-involved idiots. What will they have to "share" should everyone simply quit producing?

[hinch]

They have been very smug for quite some time, their website is not actually breaking any rules that I can think of and they are making a shed load of money through advertising and merchandise off those idiots who do break the law.

The case to me does ask where the morality is and I hope they realise it's just another self-destructive false economy.

Shame they're still so smug.

[Kiwikat]

Shame they're still so smug.

That's really the worst part. I know some pirates personally (not mentioning any names because I know some are members here) who are so proud of what they do its scary. I don't see how stealing makes people feel good about themselves. It's #$*&'ed up though. My generation and the newest one have almost no morals.

[Lionheart]

Well put Francois!


Stealing is stealing is stealing is stealing... Bottom line.

If they would download stolen software, they would steal a DVD out of Walmart if they knew they could get away with it....

Morals. Without them, what are you? What is the next step in your life? Where will you be in 10 years...?


There is some new technologies coming out that is pretty cool to combat piracy. Embedded codes that can phone home and report who has what, which is cross compared on a database with purchasers. This in turn is submitted regularly to the FBI and Interpol. Also, the usual model deforming systems if the package isnt right, doesnt self-check properly. (This model will self destruct).


If they can pirate away like crazy, then its time to either stop making models or come up with bullet proof technologies to seal up thieves..


Goodness.. Its as much as getting your car wash, or a box of beer or a DVD movie!



Bill

[Bjoern]

Embedded codes that can phone home and report who has what, which is cross compared on a database with purchasers. This in turn is submitted regularly to the FBI and Interpol.

Hellooooooooooooo, 1984!