Which Yoke?

[Mach3DS]

Ok, fellow simmers...I need a Yoke...not a joystick, a Yoke. My budget is about ~$250. I know enough that I don't want Saitek. I would like one that gives 90 degree rotations. Eclipse owners? Should I wait for the Honey comb offering?

[MarkH]

Should I wait for the Honey comb offering?

If you're adamant about those constraints, it seems to me you have no other choice :)

[roger-wilco-66]

I have both a joystick and a yoke, the latter is an old CH product. It's OK for what it does, but I guess I'm spoiled by the TM Warthog joystick and each time I grab the yoke I could start a rant about it's wobbly plastic feeling and imprecise centering.

So I'm also eager to learn what people come up with here!


[Edit: The Honeycomb yoke looks great, and I also like the variety of switches it has. Also the Honecomb throttle quadrant. I made a mental note! ]

Cheers,
Mark

[Daveroo]

i went from the ch products yoke,the newest one,to the saitek and i love it,im curious as to why the saitek is out of the question,what dont you like about it?..again im just curious.

[Naismith]

In defence of Saitek, I have to say I have the Cessna Yoke and am very pleased with its performance. It was way ahead of the cheaper version. Possibly not rwadily available now that Logitech have taken over the brand.

[Mach3DS]

Funny that you mention that. That Cessna version was the one I was entertaining. However I've not seen it available in recent months. The reason I said no to Saitek (the non-cessna version) is because I read that it is not fully 90 degrees rotatable? Meaning you can't cove the yoke full left or Right to the 90 degree position (or very close to it)? I heard that maybe the CH Eclipse does move to the 90's? The new Honey Comb will move to the 90's....but it's unclear how long it will be until it comes to market.

[Daveroo]

ok,my saitek doesnt go 90 degrees.but why would you need that in an aircraft that would a yoke,well i can see it with the P-38,but in normal GA flying,is there a need for 90* or more?..im asking to learn not to argue.

[bbrz]

you can't cove the yoke full left or Right to the 90 degree position (or very close to it)? I heard that maybe the CH Eclipse does move to the 90's? The new Honey Comb will move to the 90's....
Not sure if the 180deg movement is a real advantage.
Most of the time the main problem in flightsims is the sensitivity of the pitch axis due to the short joystick/yoke travel and all desk mounted yokes have a way too short travel along the pitch axis.
IMO this results in very badly harmonized pitch/roll behaviour because pitch sensitivity is still way too sensitive and roll sensitivity is greatly reduced with a 180deg yoke movement.
Btw,
on the 767 you can rotate the wheel 90deg L/R, but full flight controls deflection occurs already at the 45° position ;)

[stearmandriver]

Are you sure about the 767? I could see max spolier deflection occurring by then, but aileron too? I can say for certain that's not the case on the 737 anyway, because there have been many times I've needed more than 45 degrees of yoke travel for the required roll response.

To answer the advantage about further travel in the sim, it's a sensitivity issue. If full control deflection is reached at the halfway point of 45 degrees, then the yoke is twice as sensitive as it should be in roll control. This is usually compensated for by creating a curve in the control sensitivity where the ailerons are deadened near neutral, but then get rapidly more sensitive with further deflection. Feels weird, very unnatural. I've never tried a sim yoke I liked, but this new honeycomb IS interesting, glad it was mentioned.

[Mach3DS]

What it comes down to for me, is that all aircraft with a Yoke that I have flown in IRL, have 90 deg travel. I don't want to introduce "bad habits" of muscle memory by getting used to something that is not in the real aircraft (at least the aircraft I fly or have flown). So for me, it's a must.

[roger-wilco-66]

I had the Saitek yoke (non Cessna) many moons ago. It felt better and was larger than the CH version, but it quit on me with an electronic defect 1 year and 2 weeks after I bought it. Bought a second one, which quit in the same way after a few months again.
Maybe it was just bad luck, but that keeps me away from them as far as controls go.


Cheers,
Mark

[ratty]

Just an observation, but in all the real world aircraft with yokes that I've flown I never got NEAR 90 degree rotation while I was in the air.

[Mach3DS]

Me either, but, I do when I'm taxiing with quartering head/tail winds. I just really want it to hit the 90's, so that I'm using the same muscle memory for all aspects of the flight, including run up in GA aircraft with the flight control checks...and I'm willing to pay for it. So, if there's another one out there that I'm not aware of, please, anyone, let me know! Thanks guys!

[modelr]

I just checked my Saitek Cessna Yoke, and it does go 90 degrees in each direction, 180 degrees full motion left-right. Just to let you know.

[bbrz]

What it comes down to for me, is that all aircraft with a Yoke that I have flown in IRL, have 90 deg travel. I don't want to introduce "bad habits" of muscle memory by getting used to something that is not in the real aircraft (at least the aircraft I fly or have flown). So for me, it's a must.
This doesn't make sense if the pitch axis is way too short when compared to real yoke pitch movement. To be acceptable realistic both axis need a similar amount of travel.
The argument of muscle memory would only make sense if you would buy a yoke with control loading (and realistic pitch axis movement)

@stearmandriver. Yes, ailerons too. Boeing tried to make the 767 to 'feel' as maneuverable as the 757, that's why they used the reduced travel.

[Mach3DS]

Make sense to you or not, I want 90 degrees of travel. Kind of a moot point since this is my preference. Sounds like it's not a factor for you, and that's ok. To each their own. This is something I'm looking for. And you may be right. I may not be able to find a realistic Yoke.... If that's end up being the case I simply won't buy.

[bbrz]

Sounds like it's not a factor for you, and that's ok. To each their own. This is something I'm looking for. And you may be right. I may not be able to find a realistic Yoke.... If that's end up being the case I simply won't buy.
It is a factor. The point is that you will not be able to find an acceptable realistic yoke for $250, especially if you are a RW pilot and know how a yoke moves and feels.

[stearmandriver]

This doesn't make sense if the pitch axis is way too short when compared to real yoke pitch movement. To be acceptable realistic both axis need a similar amount of travel.
The argument of muscle memory would only make sense if you would buy a yoke with control loading (and realistic pitch axis movement)

@stearmandriver. Yes, ailerons too. Boeing tried to make the 767 to 'feel' as maneuverable as the 757, that's why they used the reduced travel.

Interesting. I've always heard the 76 is light in roll compared to the 75, so I asked a buddy on it. According to him (and his FH), the 76 has only 2/3 the available control yoke deflection of the 75 in roll; he says it feels like about the 45 degree point. So it sounds like the wheel doesn't rotate 90 degrees. Not trying to quibble with ya, I was just honestly surprised that a manufacturer would design an aircraft with pointless yoke deflection, that'd be something I'd never seen before.

As far as the actual thread topic, my personal opinion is that it's not worth getting too picky about exact control feel / muscle memory, simply because the sim hasn't yet been invented that *precisely* mimics a real airplane anyway (up to and including level D sims used for airman certification). You will always fly a real airplane differently than a simulator... or you won't fly it very well ;-).

I definitely understand your desire for as much accuracy as possible, and I'm not trying to change your mind - your standards are yours and you have every right to purchase what you want. I'm just offering an instructor perspective in case you're concerned about negative training because of different control feel - it won't cause you a problem. No more than flying two different airplanes will. As a training tool, these sims are far more useful for practicing a scan and instrument procedures anyway; its not like you're going to perfect xwind landings or rolling circles on a desktop sim...

I'm with you that none of the usual suspects for a yoke fulfilled what I was looking for either... I'll be watching for that Honeycomb release. Best of luck in your search!

[bbrz]

Interesting. I've always heard the 76 is light in roll compared to the 75, so I asked a buddy on it. According to him (and his FH), the 76 has only 2/3 the available control yoke deflection of the 75 in roll; he says it feels like about the 45 degree point. So it sounds like the wheel doesn't rotate 90 degrees. Not trying to quibble with ya, I was just honestly surprised that a manufacturer would design an aircraft with pointless yoke deflection, that'd be something I'd never seen before.
The 767 yoke turns much further than 45deg. Approximately close to 90deg. Check this scene: https://youtu.be/jJa-I_7zs_c?t=207
Why should Boeing use different yoke limits on the 757 and 767? It's not pointless because 757/767 is a single type rating and it's a good idea to keep things identical as much as possible.
Nobody cares and most 757/767 pilots don't know this fact.
I didn't know about this fact either and once I found out it didn't change the way I flew the 767.
It wouldn't make sense that a 767 should actually be lighter in roll than a 757.

[Mach3DS]

Yes, you're all correct in a different ways. I think I'm going to wait and see what emerges with this Honey comb product. Perhaps my wants, don't really outwiegh my needs....as far as enjoyment will be concerned....Thanks for the diverse perspectives! I knew I was in for them! That's why I come here..

[Daveroo]

Yes, you're all correct in a different ways. I think I'm going to wait and see what emerges with this Honey comb product. Perhaps my wants, don't really outwiegh my needs....as far as enjoyment will be concerned....Thanks for the diverse perspectives! I knew I was in for them! That's why I come here..

hey Rick,i think if i were you id just wait for that honeycomb unit too,on the website it says $199.99 USD for it,and a reliese date sometime in the first quarter of 2018,not too far off,im going to start setting aside money and change my setup to both the honeycomb produts,the yoke and throttle setup,looks cool to me too..lol..my current setup is spread out and not very easy to use..im always losing some controller or another...works one day,not the next and so on...

[Naismith]

Came across this - Facebook Flightsim Marketplace - https://www.facebook.com/groups/FlightSimMarket/?multi_permalinks=768369893351025&notif_id=1513708900910993&notif_t=group_highlights&ref=notif

which may be worth a looksee.

[Pips]

I too am waiting for the Honeycomb yoke. It's a very impressive looking piece of equipment. Am very keen to try it out. :)

[stearmandriver]

The 767 yoke turns much further than 45deg. Approximately close to 90deg. Check this scene: https://youtu.be/jJa-I_7zs_c?t=207
Why should Boeing use different yoke limits on the 757 and 767? It's not pointless because 757/767 is a single type rating and it's a good idea to keep things identical as much as possible.
Nobody cares and most 757/767 pilots don't know this fact.
I didn't know about this fact either and once I found out it didn't change the way I flew the 767.
It wouldn't make sense that a 767 should actually be lighter in roll than a 757.

The point being, there isn't an amount of control wheel movement that doesn't yeild additional control deflection, that's what I meant by "pointless". Per the FH, the 76 yoke only deflects 2/3 of the distance the 75 does. The three 75/6 guys I've asked now all knew this. As far as which is lighter in roll, that's one Boeing model I've not flown so I can't say personally, but I've commonly heard the 6 is more responsive. More control authority could surely make this possible, regardless of the extra mass.

Common type considerations? Dunno. Compare a 737-200 to a Max. There's much bigger differences. ;-)

[stearmandriver]

Could you really ask him? Sincerely, no sarcasm, I'd really be curious. This is interesting.

I guess not relevant to your thread though, sorry for the hijack ;-).

[Mach3DS]

Yes, I could ask him, but it really depends on the question(s) and answer, if it's common knowledge etc. I'd have to ask the law department first...as I value my job, and keeping the export laws of the USA. I doubt I'll get time to just shoot the breeze with the top dog. But I know the 787 chief pilot, as well as some 777 pilots, and most of the flight analysts who are doing all the troubleshooting on every flight anyway.

[Javis]

Make sense to you or not, I want 90 degrees of travel..

https://youtu.be/QJRGPEFZHLM?t=1m

cheers,
jan

[bbrz]

I'd have to ask the law department first...as I value my job, and keeping the export laws of the USA.
Seriously?